I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial "scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

"Info" wrote in message
diainc...
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I
don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

IMO, you are a PITA and I'd not want to work for you. It is really
impossible to give a "will not exceed" number when there is known rot and
some is hidden. He may give an astronomical number to cover his ass and
maybe scare you away. Same thing with the restoration. That can be pricey
too and he has to be paid for the work he does. You have concerns about one
wall collapsing. If that is true, he'll have to add in the price of
replacement to cover his potential liability for you rotting house.

When I had my own business, I'd walk away from some jobs. This would fall
into that category. Plenty of other good jobs out there.

On Jan 29, 1:57*am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. *Here's the initial "scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. *I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove *has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? *I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. *At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
*crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. *Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? *That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. *I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Mr. Pawlowski says about hidden problems is true.
One cannot place a cost on work one cannot see.

Your best protection is to ask recent clients about their experience.
T

"Info" wrote in message
diainc...

One other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

If you are both legally responsible (aged 21+ and solvent) you
can agree on whatever satisfies both parties, and if not you
can bargain until you reach agreement. This is what "negotiate"
means and the contract is merely the agreed record of what
both parties agreed. If you want more than the other party will
agree to, he will not take on your job. You cannot coerce him
to agree to everything you want and he cannot force you to
sign a contract that does not satisfy you.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Jan 29, 1:57*am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. *Here's the initial "scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. *I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove *has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? *I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. *At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
*crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. *Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? *That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. *I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Info,

Take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. I think the fact
that Tub Cove has been doing this kind of work for so long is your
best guarantee of success. You are not a pain in the ass just a
concerned buyer of these services. You don't want to make the process
more difficult or cumbersome than it has to be. Check references and
the Better Business Bureau for anything negative. Read the contract
carefully to see if your concerns are adequately adressed. Good luck
and I hope things turn out well for you.

KC

On Jan 29, 1:57*am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. *Here's the initial "scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. *I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove *has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? *I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. *At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
*crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. *Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? *That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. *I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

You're aware that you'll have to transfer into that shower because
there's a 2-1/2" threshold, correct? Most people in wheelchairs prefer
roll-in showers. Also, the way that SOW is written, you'll be eating
any additional work if there is any extra work involved once the tub
is removed. You can't expect the person doing the estimating to have
xray vision. Good luck with your project.

wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial "scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

You're aware that you'll have to transfer into that shower because
there's a 2-1/2" threshold, correct? Most people in wheelchairs prefer
roll-in showers. Also, the way that SOW is written, you'll be eating
any additional work if there is any extra work involved once the tub
is removed. You can't expect the person doing the estimating to have
xray vision. Good luck with your project.

What I see in there is permits and inspections are excluded from the bid
price, and also I see nothing in there about structural
repair/reconstruction, so if any is required that would be a change
order. I would ask what their price for, say, a new subfloor would be
if required, just in case. In pretty much any construction environment
change orders are higher margin than bid work, and that's not the
company trying to screw you that's just the way it is, so you might as
well get an idea of cost in a "worst case" scenario.

Did the "other guys" include an estimate of rot repair in their bids?
It may turn out that that might be a cheaper overall price. worth asking.

good luck

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"KC" wrote in message
...
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Info,

Take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. I think the fact
that Tub Cove has been doing this kind of work for so long is your
best guarantee of success. You are not a pain in the ass just a
concerned buyer of these services. You don't want to make the process
more difficult or cumbersome than it has to be. Check references and
the Better Business Bureau for anything negative. Read the contract
carefully to see if your concerns are adequately adressed. Good luck
and I hope things turn out well for you.

KC
-------

Thanks. I am a pain in the ass. Ask my wife. I just don't understand
where those posters got their belligerence. I did nothing but ask a
question. But, just ask my wife.

"Too much rot" was horrible shorthand on my part. See me next post. For
what it's worth I had already checked the state's contractor database and
found no complaints. Tub Cove has the job for $12k.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I
don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this
work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at
the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

You're aware that you'll have to transfer into that shower because
there's a 2-1/2" threshold, correct? Most people in wheelchairs prefer
roll-in showers. Also, the way that SOW is written, you'll be eating
any additional work if there is any extra work involved once the tub
is removed. You can't expect the person doing the estimating to have
xray vision. Good luck with your project.

What I see in there is permits and inspections are excluded from the bid
price, and also I see nothing in there about structural
repair/reconstruction, so if any is required that would be a change order.
I would ask what their price for, say, a new subfloor would be if
required, just in case. In pretty much any construction environment
change orders are higher margin than bid work, and that's not the company
trying to screw you that's just the way it is, so you might as well get an
idea of cost in a "worst case" scenario.

Did the "other guys" include an estimate of rot repair in their bids? It
may turn out that that might be a cheaper overall price. worth asking.

good luck

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

1) I want a 2 1/2 lip to help keep the water in. I'm having them build a
inexpensive, sturdy and movable ramp that will help the pushing me over the
lip easier. As I understand it, a roll-in shower would require a great deal
more work on the tub floor. I'm in a condo and the floor is "common space."
Digging into that will be enormously expensive and the building management
company is not very cooperative. It took them 6 weeks to change a light
bulb in a stairwell. God knows what hoops I'd have to jump through to
invade common space.

2) I know about the inspections and permits. We're getting them done on the
side with Tub Cove. The SOW was just the preliminary document and written
awhile back.

3) They're going to remove the tile floor and replace it with one that
slopes up a little toward the lip.

4) I worded "too expensive, too much rot." so horribly. The rot is not
what might be behind the wall. The rot is the bull that I've received from
others I've asked to bid. One guy refused to give me a non-binding
guesstimate because "I don't know what's under the floor." He meant its
condition. Wouldn't even hazard a non-binding guess? That's "rot."
Another said "$25k. There's no money in bathrooms. I can't get more than
one person in there at a time." I accept that and that he's more than
welcome to charge anything he wants. He had no intention of negotiating at
all. Another guy said $45. $45k for a 56 square foot bathroom remodel?
The drawing that he sent was absurdly different from what my wife and I told
him to his face we wanted. Yikes! If they didn't want the job, all they had
to do was say "No." A fourth fellow tried to fleece me out of an alleged
$1k retainer to which I never agreed at all. A fifth fellow said that my
accountant was wrong and that the entire cost would be tax deductible. He's
a contractor. He was full of rot. My account is a former IRS agent.

I need to ask more about change orders. Thanks for the feedback.

"Info" wrote in message

Thanks. I am a pain in the ass. Ask my wife. I just don't understand
where those posters got their belligerence. I did nothing but ask a
question. But, just ask my wife.

From your attitude. You want a "not to exceed" price, yet you know you have
hidden damages. Unless you pay to have it torn up and inspected, no one can
truly give you what you want. You want assurance that the work can be put
back if the project is not going to work. That too is a difficult thing to
price or to assure and at each step it gets more difficult and expensive to
do that.

I've run into people like you and they are not worth the aggravation. Some
people will just never be happy now matter how good the work or how low the
price is. What you need is a reputable contractor and trust both ways.

I've not changed my mind. I'd not take the job. I don't care if you think
me belligerent, but I won't have to see you in court either.

On Jan 31, 12:31*pm, "Info" wrote:
"KC" wrote in message

...
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:



I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Info,

Take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. *I think the fact
that Tub Cove has been doing this kind of work for so long is your
best guarantee of success. *You are not a pain in the ass just a
concerned buyer of these services. *You don't want to make the process
more difficult or cumbersome than it has to be. *Check references and
the Better Business Bureau for anything negative. *Read the contract
carefully to see if your concerns are adequately adressed. *Good luck
and I hope things turn out well for you.

KC
-------

Thanks. *I am a pain in the ass. *Ask my wife. *I just don't understand
where those posters got their belligerence. *I did nothing but ask a
question. *But, just ask my wife.

"Too much rot" was horrible shorthand on my part. *See me next post. *For
what it's worth I had already checked the state's contractor database and
found no complaints. Tub Cove has the job for $12k.

Doing a work write up is sort of an art in it involves some
assumptions. You are either assuming (a) that there is no concealed
rot or (b) that there is rot. If there is rot, then (a) you are
either unaware of it or (b) you are hoping to hide it from the
contractor. You want a fixed price. So, the contractor can either
(a) assume there's rot and charge you a fortune (if there isn't rot,
then they make out like a bandit) or (b) they can assume there isn't
rot and lose money. Which do you want?

So obviously, the best scenario is for the contractor to assume there
is no rot and charge accordingly while you assume there IS rot and
have enough money to cover that. Then, if there's no rot you are
charged a fair price. If there is rot, then they give you a change
order and again you are charged fairly.

The reason that people are viewing you as a PITA is because you want
the contractor (who didn't develop the scope of work) to guarantee
that there isn't any rot and price accordingly. So for the
contractor, it's best just to walk away because it's the start of a
bad relationship.

BTW, I looked at the scope of work. You really can't work off of it
but that's a completely different problem.

"Pat" wrote in message
...
On Jan 31, 12:31 pm, "Info" wrote:
"KC" wrote in message

...
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:



I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I
don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at
the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Info,

Take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. I think the fact
that Tub Cove has been doing this kind of work for so long is your
best guarantee of success. You are not a pain in the ass just a
concerned buyer of these services. You don't want to make the process
more difficult or cumbersome than it has to be. Check references and
the Better Business Bureau for anything negative. Read the contract
carefully to see if your concerns are adequately adressed. Good luck
and I hope things turn out well for you.

KC
-------

Thanks. I am a pain in the ass. Ask my wife. I just don't understand
where those posters got their belligerence. I did nothing but ask a
question. But, just ask my wife.

"Too much rot" was horrible shorthand on my part. See me next post. For
what it's worth I had already checked the state's contractor database and
found no complaints. Tub Cove has the job for $12k.

Doing a work write up is sort of an art in it involves some
assumptions. You are either assuming (a) that there is no concealed
rot or (b) that there is rot. If there is rot, then (a) you are
either unaware of it or (b) you are hoping to hide it from the
contractor. You want a fixed price. So, the contractor can either
(a) assume there's rot and charge you a fortune (if there isn't rot,
then they make out like a bandit) or (b) they can assume there isn't
rot and lose money. Which do you want?

So obviously, the best scenario is for the contractor to assume there
is no rot and charge accordingly while you assume there IS rot and
have enough money to cover that. Then, if there's no rot you are
charged a fair price. If there is rot, then they give you a change
order and again you are charged fairly.

The reason that people are viewing you as a PITA is because you want
the contractor (who didn't develop the scope of work) to guarantee
that there isn't any rot and price accordingly. So for the
contractor, it's best just to walk away because it's the start of a
bad relationship.

BTW, I looked at the scope of work. You really can't work off of it
but that's a completely different problem.

-------

1) The scope of work is too vague for me so I came here for opinions. Why
do you think it's insufficient or whatever? The contractor, Tub Cove, did
write the scope of work and emailed it to me. Why do you say that the
contractor didn't write it? I'm not criticizing you. I don't know who
other than the contractor would have written it. Tub Cove is the one that's
doing the work. That's why I'm calling Tub Cove the contractor.

Can you elaborate about your the scope of work comment?

2) Please see my response to Nate Nigel. I blew it by my horribly-written
phrase "too much rot" way early in this thread. Nobody knew that when they
started posting, so all the observations prior to my post to Nate about the
contractors' rights are certainly valid. I understand that. There might be
rot behind the walls. I don't expect perfection. I'm just looking for ways
to contain the possible financial damage. My "too much rot" was atrociously
worded. I have no excuse for it.

I have only one question about the PITA stuff. Those responses are venomous
personal attacks. I don't understand the mindset that prompts them. A
simple, "I don't agree because..." would have been sufficient. I have
many flaws, but I don't attack people whose opinions I don't share. Where
the heck does this venom come from? That's the last I'll say about the PITA
stuff.

Thanks

Info wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:
I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I
don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this
work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at
the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.
You're aware that you'll have to transfer into that shower because
there's a 2-1/2" threshold, correct? Most people in wheelchairs prefer
roll-in showers. Also, the way that SOW is written, you'll be eating
any additional work if there is any extra work involved once the tub
is removed. You can't expect the person doing the estimating to have
xray vision. Good luck with your project.
What I see in there is permits and inspections are excluded from the bid
price, and also I see nothing in there about structural
repair/reconstruction, so if any is required that would be a change order.
I would ask what their price for, say, a new subfloor would be if
required, just in case. In pretty much any construction environment
change orders are higher margin than bid work, and that's not the company
trying to screw you that's just the way it is, so you might as well get an
idea of cost in a "worst case" scenario.

Did the "other guys" include an estimate of rot repair in their bids? It
may turn out that that might be a cheaper overall price. worth asking.

good luck

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

1) I want a 2 1/2 lip to help keep the water in. I'm having them build a
inexpensive, sturdy and movable ramp that will help the pushing me over the
lip easier. As I understand it, a roll-in shower would require a great deal
more work on the tub floor. I'm in a condo and the floor is "common space."
Digging into that will be enormously expensive and the building management
company is not very cooperative. It took them 6 weeks to change a light
bulb in a stairwell. God knows what hoops I'd have to jump through to
invade common space.

2) I know about the inspections and permits. We're getting them done on the
side with Tub Cove. The SOW was just the preliminary document and written
awhile back.

3) They're going to remove the tile floor and replace it with one that
slopes up a little toward the lip.

4) I worded "too expensive, too much rot." so horribly. The rot is not
what might be behind the wall. The rot is the bull that I've received from
others I've asked to bid. One guy refused to give me a non-binding
guesstimate because "I don't know what's under the floor." He meant its
condition. Wouldn't even hazard a non-binding guess? That's "rot."
Another said "$25k. There's no money in bathrooms. I can't get more than
one person in there at a time." I accept that and that he's more than
welcome to charge anything he wants. He had no intention of negotiating at
all. Another guy said $45. $45k for a 56 square foot bathroom remodel?
The drawing that he sent was absurdly different from what my wife and I told
him to his face we wanted. Yikes! If they didn't want the job, all they had
to do was say "No." A fourth fellow tried to fleece me out of an alleged
$1k retainer to which I never agreed at all. A fifth fellow said that my
accountant was wrong and that the entire cost would be tax deductible. He's
a contractor. He was full of rot. My account is a former IRS agent.

I need to ask more about change orders. Thanks for the feedback.



Well, if you didn't mean "rot" to mean "water damage" don't pester them
too much about the COs. Time is money, they probably want to just get
in and out and get paid. An offhand question can't hurt though.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:42:49 -0800, "Info"
wrote:

I need to ask more about change orders.

How about a novel idea? You write an elaborate SOW, declare any
exceptions, stop orders, dates, times, etc....... Write it all down
and then ask out for bids.

Oren wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:42:49 -0800, "Info"
wrote:

I need to ask more about change orders.

How about a novel idea? You write an elaborate SOW, declare any
exceptions, stop orders, dates, times, etc....... Write it all down
and then ask out for bids.


This is not bad advice, in the grand scheme of things. Bid/contract
work is not like shopping in a store.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:46:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Bid/contract work is not like shopping in a store.

Sharpest Pencil wins, I say

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:46:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Bid/contract work is not like shopping in a store.

Sharpest Pencil wins, I say


Sharpest pencil does not always = good work though.

Last roofing contract I let was $25,000 more than the lowest bid, but I got
away cheaper when all is said and done. Why? He was aware of what really
had to be done, up front, not after the job was started, and had a capable
crew..

On Jan 31, 11:01�pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message

...

On Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:46:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Bid/contract work is not like shopping in a store.

Sharpest Pencil wins, I say

Sharpest pencil does not always = good work though.

Last roofing contract I let was $25,000 more than the lowest bid, but I got
away cheaper when all is said and done. �Why? �He was aware of what really
had to be done, up front, not after the job was started, and had a capable
crew..

the lowest price ANYTHING is rarely a good deal.

cheaper tend to be well CHEAP

with the lowest price components etc.

just my 2 cents, which you will like its FREE

Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? *That will be
his obligation to fix

Not sure what you really mean here. If the wall of your place falls
apart (note language "the wall gives way" not "he breaks the wall")
what do you mean it is his "obligation" to fix it? Do you mean he has
to pay for your bad property? Within the scope of the contract that
was not about fixing your bad property? What if the porch falls off
when he's walking to the job site, is it his obligation to fix that as
well? What if your wall gives way and injures his crew? Or do you just
mean that the final deliverable must be something that actually looks
done and you're willing to pay for it as circumstances arise?

"gruhn" wrote in message
...
Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix

Not sure what you really mean here. If the wall of your place falls
apart (note language "the wall gives way" not "he breaks the wall")
what do you mean it is his "obligation" to fix it? Do you mean he has
to pay for your bad property? Within the scope of the contract that
was not about fixing your bad property? What if the porch falls off
when he's walking to the job site, is it his obligation to fix that as
well? What if your wall gives way and injures his crew? Or do you just
mean that the final deliverable must be something that actually looks
done and you're willing to pay for it as circumstances arise?

-----

My apologies, again, for the very poorly worded question. Thank you all.

On Jan 31, 5:44*pm, "Info" wrote:
"Pat" wrote in message

...
On Jan 31, 12:31 pm, "Info" wrote:



"KC" wrote in message

...
On Jan 29, 1:57 am, "Info" wrote:

I'm the wheelchair-friendly bathroom remodel guy. Here's the initial
"scope
of work" document I received from Tub Cove. This company is the
only contender because the others were too expensive too much rot. I
don't
think they
wanted my business and Tub Cove has specialized exclusively in this work
for at least
twenty years.

http://www.geocities.com/haroldshams...pe_of_Work.xls

I've been on project teams, coordinating work, but I have not been at
the
front end "SOW" part before. What do you think ? I need a more specific
document and will ask for it.

On other concern I have is the contract. At a minimum, I need to make
sure
he can restore the bathroom if a problem (I don't know how to put it)
crops up that makes the original plan unworkable. Suppose the wall
on the side of the tub gives way when he removes the tub? That will be
his obligation to fix, but I need to make sure I can make that stick. I
also
want a "not to exceed" amount in the contract.

Info,

Take what everyone says here with a grain of salt. I think the fact
that Tub Cove has been doing this kind of work for so long is your
best guarantee of success. You are not a pain in the ass just a
concerned buyer of these services. You don't want to make the process
more difficult or cumbersome than it has to be. Check references and
the Better Business Bureau for anything negative. Read the contract
carefully to see if your concerns are adequately adressed. Good luck
and I hope things turn out well for you.

KC
-------

Thanks. I am a pain in the ass. Ask my wife. I just don't understand
where those posters got their belligerence. I did nothing but ask a
question. But, just ask my wife.

"Too much rot" was horrible shorthand on my part. See me next post. For
what it's worth I had already checked the state's contractor database and
found no complaints. Tub Cove has the job for $12k.

Doing a work write up is sort of an art in it involves some
assumptions. *You are either assuming (a) that there is no concealed
rot or (b) that there is rot. *If there is rot, then (a) you are
either unaware of it or (b) you are hoping to hide it from the
contractor. *You want a fixed price. *So, the contractor can either
(a) assume there's rot and charge you a fortune (if there isn't rot,
then they make out like a bandit) or (b) they can assume there isn't
rot and lose money. *Which do you want?

So obviously, the best scenario is for the contractor to assume there
is no rot and charge accordingly while you assume there IS rot and
have enough money to cover that. *Then, if there's no rot you are
charged a fair price. *If there is rot, then they give you a change
order and again you are charged fairly.

The reason that people are viewing you as a PITA is because you want
the contractor (who didn't develop the scope of work) to guarantee
that there isn't any rot and price accordingly. *So for the
contractor, it's best just to walk away because it's the start of a
bad relationship.

BTW, I looked at the scope of work. *You really can't work off of it
but that's a completely different problem.

-------

1) The scope of work is too vague for me so I came here for opinions. *Why
do you think it's insufficient or whatever? *The contractor, Tub Cove, did
write the scope of work and emailed it to me. *Why do you say that the
contractor didn't write it? *I'm not criticizing you. *I don't know who
other than the contractor would have written it. *Tub Cove is the one that's
doing the work. *That's why I'm calling Tub Cove the contractor.

Can you elaborate about your the scope of work comment?

The scope of work would normally involve statements like:
"remove existing tile and substrate down to stud. appropriately
remove debris. remove existing water lines and reinstall PEX lines.
After plumbing inspection, install approximately 180 s.f.; 5/8th
"green board". Install "brand x, model y" tub in location of prior
tub with drain on the south side of the tub. Install "brand z, model
A" faucets at location "b" at a height of between C" and d". Location
to conform to ASTM spec XXX.XX spec for a handicapped accessible tub
(note, faucet location is not standard for a tub).

Sheetrock to be installed using 1 1/4" type W screws on 12" center.
Installation must comply with US. Gysum spec E. Finish according to
U.S Gypsum spec F to a Grade 5 finish.

Even installing something like sheetrock isn't a no-brainer. It is if
you all agree on it but if you want it one way and the contractor
wants it another, then you need a spec. For example, for the bathroom
are you using paperless sheetrock? You need to spec it if you want
it. What brand of paint? What finish and what color? Is the
contractor just priming it and leaving the final paint to you? Is he
using 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of paint or 1 coat of tinted
primer and 1 coat of paint? Is he installing an anti-bacterial
additive? What type of lighting fixtures? flourescent or LED? Who
is paying for the bulbs? What wattage? Who is ensuring that it meets
handicapped standards? Who is paying for lead and asbestos testing?
What brand and type of flooring will be used? How is the transition
from old to new being made.

The problem is that you don't know the answer to most of the stuff and
therefore can't spec it. The contractor is going to do it the way he
always does it and doesn't care about your spec. The problem is going
to occur 3 months from now when you see the final product and you
don't like it and there's nothing in the spec about what you wanted.

Here's what I would recommend. Forget doing a spec. Find a
contractor you like/trust. Go to a home store and find everything you
want to use -- faucets, flooring, sink, paint color, lighting
fixtures. Put it all on sheets of paper and incorporate it into HIS
spec. You keep a copy and he gets one, stapled to the contract. Get
a price and ask if it includes rotten and other "site conditions". If
so, sign it, leave and let him get to work. If not, ask him how much
you should set aside (extra) for rot and stuff, based on his
experience. He probably has a standard formula or s.f. cost for sub-
flooring etc. Let him know what you have set aside so that he can
work within your budget.



2) Please see my response to Nate Nigel. *I blew it by my horribly-written
phrase "too much rot" way early in this thread. *Nobody knew that when they
started posting, so all the observations prior to my post to Nate about the
contractors' rights are certainly valid. I understand that. There might be
rot behind the walls. *I don't expect perfection. *I'm just looking for ways
to contain the possible financial damage. *My "too much rot" was atrociously
worded. *I have no excuse for it.

I have only one question about the PITA stuff. *Those responses are venomous
personal attacks. *I don't understand the mindset that prompts them. *A
simple, "I don't agree because..." would have been sufficient. * *I have
many flaws, but I don't attack people *whose opinions I don't share. *Where
the heck does this venom come from? *That's the last I'll say about the PITA
stuff.

Thanks