I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
to make appliance installations easier. My 3/4" ball valves are
r858 150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. My question is
about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. I've
seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
to prevent any heat damage.

On Nov 20, 10:51*am, wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:40:29 -0500, Phisherman
wrote:

I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
to make appliance installations easier. * My 3/4" ball valves are
r858 150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. *My question is
about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. * *I've
seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
to prevent any heat damage.

Make sure there is no moisture in the pipes, and use a MAPP torch,
which burns a bit hotter than a propane torch. You don't need to
remove anything, just don't heat it longer than needed to flow solder
in the joints. If the pipes are dry, that will not be a problem.

ps. Don't try using a MAPP gas cylinder on a propane torch that was
not designed for the higher temps of MAPP.

I'll agree on the MAPP gas suggestion, but I'll ask this question:

If this type of plumbing is a one-off project and you really won't
need a MAPP-rated torch, is it cost effective to purchase a tool that
may never get used again as opposed to removing a couple of stems and
not having to worry about damaging them?

This goes double if you aren't as comfortable sweating the fittings as
a professional might be. A few extra minutes of work for the peace of
mind of knowing you won't damage the fittings might be worth it.

If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry

Phisherman wrote:

I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
to make appliance installations easier. My 3/4" ball valves are
r858 150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. My question is
about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. I've
seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
to prevent any heat damage.
If you use a propane torch it will take too long to get the valve hot
enough to flow solder and you may damage the valve. Leave the valve
open, make sure that it is dry, and get in and out quickly. I prefer an
acetylene torch.

Boden

On Nov 20, 8:28*am, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV * Good luck * Larry


Per Larry's comments...silver solder is way better than soft solder
but in 40+ years using soft solder, I've had a long term solder
failure
(even in buried locations, where SS is often required & "should" be
used)

MAPP gas is way to go.....I have found it much faster than propane
torch, so much that with practice & a deft touch, the valve "proper"
will barely get hot. Wrap the center section of the valve with a
moist rag & go for it.

Larry's comment about copper-copper vs copper-brass has been my
experience as well....the heat transfer coefficent of brass is only
25% that of copper, so brass fittings & valve bodies spread the heat
more slowly.

cheers
Bob

My former boss loves Sterling Taramet solder. Works a lot like Stabrite, and
seems to make water tight fittings. The one time my lead in pipe leaked,
under the trailer. Half inch soft copper. I did try compression fittings.
Learned not to sandscreen the tubing before apply compressio fittings. Sigh.
Ended up using couplers from Johnstone, and stick braze it all together. You
do what works, eh?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message
...
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry

I forgot on my last post, to remind the guy with the valve to wrap the
valve in a wet rag before heating. Helps keep the innerds from cooking too
badly.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"BobK207" wrote in message
...

MAPP gas is way to go.....I have found it much faster than propane
torch, so much that with practice & a deft touch, the valve "proper"
will barely get hot. Wrap the center section of the valve with a
moist rag & go for it.

Larry's comment about copper-copper vs copper-brass has been my
experience as well....the heat transfer coefficent of brass is only
25% that of copper, so brass fittings & valve bodies spread the heat
more slowly.

cheers
Bob

I'm with you on this one.

I had to put in a 3/4-inch stop-and-waste ball valve just after the water
meter on a house I bought because the old valve before the water meter
couldn't be shut off completely. So, I needed a reliable shut-off so I
could do work in other parts of the house. I guess I did almost everything
wrong that a person could do. I did disconnect the water meter so the area
I was working on was completely dry. I started with a regular propane torch
but that took forever and the solder melted but it kept looking like a cold
solder. Got done, connected it up, and of course it leaked. Did the whole
thing again using MAPP gas but didn't know I needed a different type of
nozzle on the MAPP gas. This time, I heard a huge POW! while heating the
pipe. It was some kind of rubber gasket in the ball valve that blew out.
Did the whole thing again with a new ball valve and -- thinking I was
smart -- I cut the copper pipe off above the valve, took the whole assembly
to a place where I could solder everything with the pipe horizontal, then
connected everything back up and used a union to solder the pipe back in
place where I had cut it off. That, by some miracle, worked.

Then, after all of that, it dawned on me that all I needed to do was do what
you had suggested -- just use a ball valve with female threads, cut a
section of pipe out, solder male threaded adapters to the pipe, screw the
male adapters into the female threads in the valve, then solder the ends of
the pipe back in place using two unions. That would have meant no heat on
the valve at all, and no trying to solder copper to brass. DUH.


"Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message
...
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry

In article , (DerbyDad03) writes:
| On Nov 20, 10:51=A0am, wrote:
| On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:40:29 -0500, Phisherman
| wrote:
|
| I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
| decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
| to make appliance installations easier. =A0 My 3/4" ball valves are
| r858 150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. =A0My question is
| about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. =A0 =A0I'v=
| e
| seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
| I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
| to prevent any heat damage.
|
| Make sure there is no moisture in the pipes, and use a MAPP torch,
| which burns a bit hotter than a propane torch. You don't need to
| remove anything, just don't heat it longer than needed to flow solder
| in the joints. If the pipes are dry, that will not be a problem.
|
| ps. Don't try using a MAPP gas cylinder on a propane torch that was
| not designed for the higher temps of MAPP.
|
| I'll agree on the MAPP gas suggestion, but I'll ask this question:
|
| If this type of plumbing is a one-off project and you really won't
| need a MAPP-rated torch, is it cost effective to purchase a tool that
| may never get used again as opposed to removing a couple of stems and
| not having to worry about damaging them?

Many (most?) ball valves cannot be disassembled, nor can they later
be repaired. You might want to look at the Apollo/Conbraco Pipe Master
product which effectively has a union at each end and uses adapters
to connect to most popular pipe systems. Not only do you not have to
heat the valve but you can later replace the whole body if necessary.

I've had a lot of licensed-plumber-installed ball valves fail. I
don't know whether they were damaged by heat or the seals were scored
by the horrible debris that comes when they flush our ancient street
pipes, but either way this product seems like a win.

One thing to watch: although both the 3/4" and 1/2" versions claim to
be full-flow, the 1/2" version looks a bit smaller than a typical full-
flow ball valve. The 3/4" version is fine.

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

BobK207 wrote:
On Nov 20, 8:28 am, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry


Per Larry's comments...silver solder is way better than soft solder
but in 40+ years using soft solder, I've had a long term solder
failure
(even in buried locations, where SS is often required & "should" be
used)

MAPP gas is way to go.....I have found it much faster than propane
torch, so much that with practice & a deft touch, the valve "proper"
will barely get hot. Wrap the center section of the valve with a
moist rag & go for it.

Larry's comment about copper-copper vs copper-brass has been my
experience as well....the heat transfer coefficent of brass is only
25% that of copper, so brass fittings & valve bodies spread the heat
more slowly.

cheers
Bob

I was in one of the HVAC supply houses a few days ago
when something caught my eye. I picked up a bottle of
copper glue. The instructions on the bottle indicated
that it is used in much the same way you would use PVC
cement but it's for copper. I thought it might be an
April Fools joke but it was for real. I haven't tried
it yet but I suppose I'll have to.

http://www.justforcopper.com/JFCPro.htm

TDD

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I forgot on my last post, to remind the guy with the valve to wrap the
valve in a wet rag before heating. Helps keep the innerds from cooking too
badly.


I use something called Cool Gel. You spray it on the valves
and it protects them from the heat.

http://www.laco.com/products141.aspx

TDD

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:36:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

BobK207 wrote:
On Nov 20, 8:28 am, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry


Per Larry's comments...silver solder is way better than soft solder
but in 40+ years using soft solder, I've had a long term solder
failure
(even in buried locations, where SS is often required & "should" be
used)

MAPP gas is way to go.....I have found it much faster than propane
torch, so much that with practice & a deft touch, the valve "proper"
will barely get hot. Wrap the center section of the valve with a
moist rag & go for it.

Larry's comment about copper-copper vs copper-brass has been my
experience as well....the heat transfer coefficent of brass is only
25% that of copper, so brass fittings & valve bodies spread the heat
more slowly.

cheers
Bob

I was in one of the HVAC supply houses a few days ago
when something caught my eye. I picked up a bottle of
copper glue. The instructions on the bottle indicated
that it is used in much the same way you would use PVC
cement but it's for copper. I thought it might be an
April Fools joke but it was for real. I haven't tried
it yet but I suppose I'll have to.

http://www.justforcopper.com/JFCPro.htm

TDD

It's one thing if a pipe develops a small leak, it's quite another if
a joint FAILS. Soldering penetrates the porous surface of the copper
and locks it together. A good solder joint will outlast the pipes it
connects. How long will "glue" last under pressure? Not in my house!

wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:36:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

BobK207 wrote:
On Nov 20, 8:28 am, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
If I were doing this job, I would use a valve with female threads and 2
male adapters. I'd sweat one m/a to one of the pipes, install the valve,
sweat a piece of pipe about a foot or so, if space permits, to the other
m/a, then screw it to the valve, and lastly hook that piece of copper to
the rest of the system. That way there is no chance of messing up the
valve. Of course the main reason I would do it that way is that I only
use silver solder. Besides not liking / trusting soft solder, after more
years than I'd like to admit in the a/c /ref trade using silver solder
and almost no experience with soft solder, I always have the stuff handy
to SS. But regardless of which solder it usually seems easier to me to
sweat copper-copper than copper-brass. YMMV Good luck Larry

Per Larry's comments...silver solder is way better than soft solder
but in 40+ years using soft solder, I've had a long term solder
failure
(even in buried locations, where SS is often required & "should" be
used)

MAPP gas is way to go.....I have found it much faster than propane
torch, so much that with practice & a deft touch, the valve "proper"
will barely get hot. Wrap the center section of the valve with a
moist rag & go for it.

Larry's comment about copper-copper vs copper-brass has been my
experience as well....the heat transfer coefficent of brass is only
25% that of copper, so brass fittings & valve bodies spread the heat
more slowly.

cheers
Bob
I was in one of the HVAC supply houses a few days ago
when something caught my eye. I picked up a bottle of
copper glue. The instructions on the bottle indicated
that it is used in much the same way you would use PVC
cement but it's for copper. I thought it might be an
April Fools joke but it was for real. I haven't tried
it yet but I suppose I'll have to.

http://www.justforcopper.com/JFCPro.htm

TDD

It's one thing if a pipe develops a small leak, it's quite another if
a joint FAILS. Soldering penetrates the porous surface of the copper
and locks it together. A good solder joint will outlast the pipes it
connects. How long will "glue" last under pressure? Not in my house!


The price of 15% silver solder which is what I
use the most for HVAC and refrigeration work has
doubled in price. I wish there was a glue I could
trust as much as PVC cement but for copper. It
would save me a lot of time and time is money.

TDD

wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:21:28 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:36:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:


I was in one of the HVAC supply houses a few days ago
when something caught my eye. I picked up a bottle of
copper glue. The instructions on the bottle indicated
that it is used in much the same way you would use PVC
cement but it's for copper. I thought it might be an
April Fools joke but it was for real. I haven't tried
it yet but I suppose I'll have to.

http://www.justforcopper.com/JFCPro.htm

TDD
It's one thing if a pipe develops a small leak, it's quite another if
a joint FAILS. Soldering penetrates the porous surface of the copper
and locks it together. A good solder joint will outlast the pipes it
connects. How long will "glue" last under pressure? Not in my house!


The price of 15% silver solder which is what I
use the most for HVAC and refrigeration work has
doubled in price. I wish there was a glue I could
trust as much as PVC cement but for copper. It
would save me a lot of time and time is money.

TDD

PVC cement is really a solvent that partially melts the pvc and then
allows it to harden again after the melted plastic co-mingles and it
fuses. It is not a "glue" or adhesive in the ordinary sense.

If ti9me is money, evaluate how much"money" it will cost your
business to fix failed joints for free, and also repair your
reputation. A bad reputation will reduce the amount of money your time
is really worth dramatically.




"I wish there was a glue I could trust...."

GEEZ!

TDD

although a common misconception, the valve should be
left closed for soldering..........




"Boden" wrote in message
...
Phisherman wrote:

I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
to make appliance installations easier. My 3/4" ball valves are r858
150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. My question is
about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. I've
seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
to prevent any heat damage.
If you use a propane torch it will take too long to get the valve hot
enough to flow solder and you may damage the valve. Leave the valve open,
make sure that it is dry, and get in and out quickly. I prefer an
acetylene torch.

Boden

news wrote:

although a common misconception, the valve should be
left closed for soldering..........



I used to think that this was the best way too. I reasoned that if the
polymer seals were to flow I'd rather have them do so into the closed
configuration. You may be correct, but lately I've had better luck with
open valves than closed valves but my "experiments" are not well
designed scientific experiments. Experience however has shown that the
most important thing by far is to use a hot enough, and big enough torch
(acetylene) to do the job quickly.

Boden




"Boden" wrote in message
...

Phisherman wrote:


I need to tap in on the main water supply lines for a new bathroom and
decided to install two brass ball valves (leading to the new bathroom)
to make appliance installations easier. My 3/4" ball valves are r858
150 WSP 600 WOG made by Mueller Industries B&K. My question is
about the inner parts that may be damaged by a propane torch. I've
seen plumbers who do not remove the inner parts of a ball valve, but
I've read somewhere that the stem should be removed before soldering
to prevent any heat damage.

If you use a propane torch it will take too long to get the valve hot
enough to flow solder and you may damage the valve. Leave the valve open,
make sure that it is dry, and get in and out quickly. I prefer an
acetylene torch.

Boden