Odd Breaker Arangement
 

Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions? Speculation

John

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

John Beckman wrote:
....
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. ...

It would be wrong, but I'd venture the ground/neutral is the third one...

--

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

dpb wrote:
John Beckman wrote:
...
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was
just two tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are
the mains, BUT there were three of them. ...

It would be wrong, but I'd venture the ground/neutral is the third one...

--

or... really out there... 120V three phase? (would be 208V when two
phases are connected?) How many conductors in the service entrance?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

Nate Nagel wrote:
dpb wrote:
John Beckman wrote:
...
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was
just two tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are
the mains, BUT there were three of them. ...

It would be wrong, but I'd venture the ground/neutral is the third one...

--

or... really out there... 120V three phase? (would be 208V when two
phases are connected?) How many conductors in the service entrance?

It would be most unusual, but I suppose not impossible. I considered
it, but rejected it (3P, that is) as being more likely a homeowner klutz
retrofit job where lacking the one disconnect breaker of some of the
cheap panels, they doofus put all three feeds onto single breakers.

But, now I think about it a little more, that wouldn't seem likely
either as the third leg would have to be isolated and those boxes
wouldn't have that as an option w/o modification.

My current guess is "I don't know; need more data (like a pitchur)"...

--


--

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

John Beckman wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions? Speculation

From your description I infer that you're dealing with 120/208 volt
3-phase service with a 100 amp main.

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

"John Beckman" wrote in message
...
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top,
there were just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water
heater had the typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240
volt breaker. However, at the top left side of the panel there were three
100 amp breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was
just two tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the
mains, BUT there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying
the place and want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately
I did not remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions?
Speculation

John

It would certainly help to have pictures, or Make and model. If it has three
handles tied together, it's possible that it's a three phase service

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

"John Beckman" wrote in message
...
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top,
there were just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water
heater had the typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240
volt breaker. However, at the top left side of the panel there were three
100 amp breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was
just two tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the
mains, BUT there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying
the place and want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately
I did not remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions?
Speculation

John

That would tend to indicate a 3 phase service, which is uncommon but not
impossible in a residence. More investigation is called for, such as the
number and type of conductors feeding the service and the number of
transformers on the pole, if overhead service. Inspection of the panel can
also tell if there are 2 or 3 main connections in addition to the neutral.
The panel label should tell if it is a 3 phase panel. A three phase service
would have two or three transformers and four wires from the pole and single
phase would have one transformer and three wires. The meter would also say
"3 Phase" or "Single Phase". If it is a single phase circuit, the triple
breaker is a mystery to me unless it was used to also disconnect the neutral
as is sometimes done when generators are used.

Don Young

Don Young

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

On Oct 29, 6:18*pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions? Speculation

John

John-

In order to be sure....You have to pull (or have someone pull) the
cover panel so you can see how its wired.

I'm thinking that someone got a "free" 3 phase panel from work (or a
friend) and installed it in a residential application.

I'll bet that:

That only two poles of that three pole breaker are wired & that the
installer jumpered two of the three phase buses together......such
that 120V is available at every slot, but 240V is only available at
certain pairings.

If it's a fairly recent Square D panel, I'd bet that the three phase
bus arrangement can be changed out for a "normal" bus, they're pretty
modular & can be slid in & out.

After getting a look inside the panel, I wouldn't consider this a deal
breaker but you could always ask for a discount to panel for a panel
rewire.



cheers
Bob

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

John Beckman wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions? Speculation

John


I've seen three phase service on some older "large"
homes because they needed it for large AC units. At
the time the homes were built, single phase 5 ton
units didn't exist. You wrote that your example is
a bungalow so I doubt it needed a lot of power. I
have seen older Federal Pacific Electric breaker
panels that were split, sort of like an old fuse
box with heavy loads on the top and lighting on the
bottom. One of the top breakers actually feeds the
bottom half of the breaker box. I tend to refer to
them as WTF breaker panels. Be careful of those,
those panels have caused a lot of fires.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/GGPic5.jpg

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/stlou022.gif

TDD

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:18:20 -0400, in alt.home.repair, "John Beckman"
wrote:

tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains, BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions? Speculation

Looking under the cover would be the obvious next step....

If it's not 3-phase, is there maybe another breaker panel you haven't
noticed? My 1960 ranch is like that...distribution panel's in the garage,
but the main is outside by the meter.

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 6:18 pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there
were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had
the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just
two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains,
BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place
and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions?
Speculation

John

John-

In order to be sure....You have to pull (or have someone pull) the
cover panel so you can see how its wired.

I'm thinking that someone got a "free" 3 phase panel from work (or a
friend) and installed it in a residential application.

I'll bet that:

That only two poles of that three pole breaker are wired & that the
installer jumpered two of the three phase buses together......such
that 120V is available at every slot, but 240V is only available at
certain pairings.

If it's a fairly recent Square D panel, I'd bet that the three phase
bus arrangement can be changed out for a "normal" bus, they're pretty
modular & can be slid in & out.

After getting a look inside the panel, I wouldn't consider this a deal
breaker but you could always ask for a discount to panel for a panel
rewire.



cheers
Bob

Bob,
We have a winner. I got back out to the house today and took a closer look.
The overhead from the power pole had two insulated conductors and the bare
ground wire. I took the cover off of the breaker box and the two hots were
hooked up to the top two of the triple 100 amp breakers. The third breaker
had a jumper from the second 100 amp breaker. So it looks like I have a
three phase box rigged to give me standard residential service. Like you
said, not a deal breaker but since I'll be upgrading from propane to a heat
pump, I'll upgrade the electric service then.

Thanks all
John

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

John Beckman wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 6:18 pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there
were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had
the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.
However, at the top left side of the panel there were three 100 amp
breakers, side by side with their handles tied together. If it was just
two
tied together, I'd just say OK 100 amp service and these are the mains,
BUT
there were three of them. What gives, I'm thinking of buying the place
and
want to know what kind of elec service it has. Unfortunately I did not
remove the panel cover, and I don't know the brand. Suggestions?
Speculation

John

John-

In order to be sure....You have to pull (or have someone pull) the
cover panel so you can see how its wired.

I'm thinking that someone got a "free" 3 phase panel from work (or a
friend) and installed it in a residential application.

I'll bet that:

That only two poles of that three pole breaker are wired & that the
installer jumpered two of the three phase buses together......such
that 120V is available at every slot, but 240V is only available at
certain pairings.

If it's a fairly recent Square D panel, I'd bet that the three phase
bus arrangement can be changed out for a "normal" bus, they're pretty
modular & can be slid in & out.

After getting a look inside the panel, I wouldn't consider this a deal
breaker but you could always ask for a discount to panel for a panel
rewire.



cheers
Bob

Bob,
We have a winner. I got back out to the house today and took a closer look.
The overhead from the power pole had two insulated conductors and the bare
ground wire. I took the cover off of the breaker box and the two hots were
hooked up to the top two of the triple 100 amp breakers. The third breaker
had a jumper from the second 100 amp breaker. So it looks like I have a
three phase box rigged to give me standard residential service. Like you
said, not a deal breaker but since I'll be upgrading from propane to a heat
pump, I'll upgrade the electric service then.

Thanks all
John


Were the breakers jumpered on the line side or the load side? I hope
load. Should be fairly easy and not too inexpensive to just buy a
proper new box and swap it out (even without upgrading service.)

That does of course prompt the question - if the last guy was too cheap
to pop a buck fifty for an appropriate breaker box and/or didn't know
that his trash find was wrong, what else in there ain't right? Not
saying you can't find a nice place with something like this going on,
but just take a critical look at other "improvements."

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

On Oct 31, 8:33�pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message
news:33ba9f8b-b59b-4cb7-b605-d01778285__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i ...
On Oct 29, 6:18 pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there
were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had
the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.

Odd Breaker Arangement
 

On Oct 31, 5:33*pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message
news:33ba9f8b-b59b-4cb7-b605-d01778285__BEGIN_MASK_n#9g02mG7!__...__END_MASK_i ...
On Oct 29, 6:18 pm, "John Beckman" wrote:
Greetings,
I was looking at a 1955 bungalow with what is probably an updated
electrical
panel. However, there was no typical "main breaker" at the top, there
were
just two rows of breakers on each side. the stove and water heater had
the
typical tied breakers that would indicate that it is a 240 volt breaker.

Odd Breaker Arangement