I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.

Mike,

Why did you run a new 20 amp circuit to power one light bar? I'm not sure
if that's what you are saying but I can't figure ir out. Replace the 20 amp
breaker with a 15 amp breaker and you will be ok.
If you need 20 amps on that circuit for some reason then you can not use
the 14 gauge wire. If a short circuit happens in the light bar the wire may
overheat before the breaker blows.
Can you go through this wall from the other side to acess this electrical
box, then patch the hole and repaint? Might be easier than attacking the
mirror.

Dave M.

On Sep 16, 7:22*pm, "David L. Martel" wrote:
Mike,

* *Why did you run a new 20 amp circuit to power one light bar? I'm not sure
if that's what you are saying but I can't figure ir out. Replace the 20 amp
breaker with a 15 amp breaker and you will be ok.
* *If you need 20 amps on that circuit for some reason then you can not use
the 14 gauge wire. If a short circuit happens in the light bar the wire may
overheat before the breaker blows.
* *Can you go through this wall from the other side to acess this electrical
box, then patch the hole and repaint? Might be easier than attacking the
mirror.

Dave M.

Before the remodel, the bathroom was fed by a 15A circuit, which was
also shared by the outlets and lights in the adjac ent den. So I ran a
new 20A circuit to feed the GFI outlet, bath fan and shower light. But
the vanity light is the only box I can't access. It's on an outside
wall so I can't get it on the other side.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.

Holy cow, I've run into that same mirror guy... several times. I doubt you'd
fry the #14, but why not just connect it to the existing 15 amp circuit that
is feeding the bathroom now. Only the outlets are required to be 20 amp

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.
If it matters to you, you should know that what you have is not code
compliant. All junction and outlet boxes are supposed to be accesssible, and
this one obviously isn't. A mirror or other non-removable covering over a
box should be cut out to the edges of the boxes and the fixture should cover
the opening. Of course, lots of people figure codes are just to make more
money for the electricians!

Don Young

wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:40:01 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Mikepier" wrote in message
...
I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.
Holy cow, I've run into that same mirror guy... several times. I doubt you'd
fry the #14, but why not just connect it to the existing 15 amp circuit that
is feeding the bathroom now. Only the outlets are required to be 20 amp



Good advice, the real answer.

And if the GFCI trips he will still have lights powered on which is a plus.

Kevin

On Sep 17, 1:29*am, Kevin Ricks wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:40:01 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Mikepier" wrote in message
....
I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar *light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So *my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.
Holy cow, I've run into that same mirror guy... several times. I doubt you'd
fry the #14, but why not just connect it to the existing 15 amp circuit that
is feeding the bathroom now. Only the outlets are required to be 20 amp

Good advice, the real answer.

And if the GFCI trips he will still have lights powered on which is a plus.

Kevin- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The way this thread reads is that the previous wiring for the light is
still there.
The one inch hole is not code compliant; but anyway, why not just
leave the light hooked up as before! Separate circuit.

If that is not possible, hook up the 14AWG wiring to the mirror light
fixture to the 20 amp circuit wired with 12 AWG and change the circuit
breaker for the bathroom circuit to 15 amps.

Surely 15 amp at 115 volts, a total of 1700 to 1800 watts is
sufficient for whole bathroom?

Even a hair dryer (plugged into the GFCI of course) will take say a
maximum of 1300 watts leaving at least 400 watts for everything else!

Everything in our bathroom uses no more than 500 watts at most, even
if all the lights are on including one over the shower and one is
electric shaving at the same time.

what if a person has a 1500, 1800, or 2000 watt hair dryer? Then i guess
your calcs would not work eh?

s
http://www.amazon.com/BaByliss-BAB20.../dp/B000ASDGK8

"terry" wrote in message
...


The way this thread reads is that the previous wiring for the light is
still there.
The one inch hole is not code compliant; but anyway, why not just
leave the light hooked up as before! Separate circuit.

If that is not possible, hook up the 14AWG wiring to the mirror light
fixture to the 20 amp circuit wired with 12 AWG and change the circuit
breaker for the bathroom circuit to 15 amps.

Surely 15 amp at 115 volts, a total of 1700 to 1800 watts is
sufficient for whole bathroom?

Even a hair dryer (plugged into the GFCI of course) will take say a
maximum of 1300 watts leaving at least 400 watts for everything else!

Everything in our bathroom uses no more than 500 watts at most, even
if all the lights are on including one over the shower and one is
electric shaving at the same time.

Complicating things more is that the vanity light, and the rest of old
bath circuit was buried in a junction box in the ceiling I found
after taking down the sheetrock. So I only have a 3 foot tail out of
the vanity, which means I need a junction box if I was to reuse it
again.
I'm going to give it another shot tonight. Maybe if I'm persistent, I
can get the new wire in the box.

On Sep 17, 11:55*am, "Steve Barker DLT"
wrote:
what if a person has a 1500, 1800, or 2000 watt hair dryer? *Then i guess
your calcs would not work eh?

shttp://www.amazon.com/BaByliss-BAB2000-Professional-Ceramix-Xtreme/dp...

"terry" wrote in message

...

The way this thread reads is that the previous wiring for the light is
still there.
The one inch hole is not code compliant; but anyway, why not just
leave the light hooked up as before! Separate circuit.

If that is not possible, hook up the 14AWG wiring to the mirror light
fixture to the 20 amp circuit wired with 12 AWG and change the circuit
breaker for the bathroom circuit to 15 amps.

Surely 15 amp at 115 volts, a total of 1700 to 1800 watts is
sufficient for whole bathroom?

Even a hair dryer (plugged into the GFCI of course) will take say a
maximum of 1300 watts leaving at least 400 watts for everything else!

Everything in our bathroom uses no more than 500 watts at most, even
if all the lights are on including one over the shower and one is
electric shaving at the same time.

Ok. Valid point about maximum wattage calculations.

But didn't know that North American 115 volt hair dryers come in such
high power versions! The only ones have seen here (Canada) have been
around 1300 watts IIRC. Maybe am out of date here? Although some
Canadian electrical codes occasionally seems to be a bit tougher than
USA and UL etc.

Only the hair dryers and other appliances I have seen in 230 volt
countries seemed to be more powerful and would possibly not North
American UL etc. code compliant anyway? You should see how fast a 2
kilowatt kettle, with a few litres of water in it, boils!!!!!
Especially when the 230 volts is a bit on the high side! Perhaps 10%
or so high; thus instead of wattage proportional to 'Voltage squared';
230 x 230 = 52,900/R one gets 253 x 253 = 64,009. 64/52.9 = some 21%
higher!!!!

And yes; 2000 watts is 17.39 amps (2000/115 = 17.39 amps). Since it is
a heater with a little fan motor that's mainly resistive. That is a
little more than the recommended 80% of the rated 20 amp capacity of a
12 AWG circuit though. i.e. 0.8 x 20 = 16 amps.

So 17.39/16.0 = 1.08. That's about 8% over recommended normal load
capacity. Although it shouldn't cause any problems provided everything
is in good condition and not much else, maybe a couple of light bulbs,
is plugged in/switched on on same circuit.

Thanks for the comment. Still feel that 115v x 15a = 1725 watts should
be plenty for most entire bathrooms!

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:00:37 -0700 (PDT), Mikepier
wrote:

I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.


If your lighting fixture exceeds 1500 watts, replace the 14g with 12g
or select a lower wattage fixture. It is best to have separate outlet
and lighting circuits.

just a short comment about your 80% comment. That would only apply if you
use a hair dryer for over 3 hours at a time. The 80% rule is for
'continuous' duty, which is defined as anything over 3 hours at at time.

s


"terry" wrote in message
...

And yes; 2000 watts is 17.39 amps (2000/115 = 17.39 amps). Since it is
a heater with a little fan motor that's mainly resistive. That is a
little more than the recommended 80% of the rated 20 amp capacity of a
12 AWG circuit though. i.e. 0.8 x 20 = 16 amps.

So 17.39/16.0 = 1.08. That's about 8% over recommended normal load
capacity. Although it shouldn't cause any problems provided everything
is in good condition and not much else, maybe a couple of light bulbs,
is plugged in/switched on on same circuit.

Thanks for the comment. Still feel that 115v x 15a = 1725 watts should
be plenty for most entire bathrooms!

In article , "Steve Barker DLT" wrote:
just a short comment about your 80% comment. That would only apply if you
use a hair dryer for over 3 hours at a time. The 80% rule is for
'continuous' duty, which is defined as anything over 3 hours at at time.

Close, but no cigar. The Code applies the 80% rule to "continuous load" which
it explicitly defines as a load expected to operate _at_maximum_current_ for
3+ hours.

http://www.google.com/products?q=hai...&hl=en&show=dd

Yes, plenty of them.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"terry" wrote in message
...

But didn't know that North American 115 volt hair dryers come in such
high power versions! The only ones have seen here (Canada) have been
around 1300 watts IIRC.

Well _THANK YOU_ for splitting that hair.


s


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Steve Barker
DLT" wrote:
just a short comment about your 80% comment. That would only apply if you
use a hair dryer for over 3 hours at a time. The 80% rule is for
'continuous' duty, which is defined as anything over 3 hours at at time.

Close, but no cigar. The Code applies the 80% rule to "continuous load"
which
it explicitly defines as a load expected to operate _at_maximum_current_
for
3+ hours.

Well _THANK YOU_ for splitting that hair.

No pun intended? (hair dryer)

In article , "Steve Barker DLT" wrote:
Well _THANK YOU_ for splitting that hair.

The point is, that it takes more than just a three-hour duration to invoke the
80% rule.

wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:02:46 -0700 (PDT), terry
wrote:

But didn't know that North American 115 volt hair dryers come in such
high power versions! The only ones have seen here (Canada) have been
around 1300 watts IIRC. Maybe am out of date here? Although some
Canadian electrical codes occasionally seems to be a bit tougher than
USA and UL etc.

They don't. This is the same creative rating method they use to make
6HP compressors that plug into a 14a receptacle.

http://esteroriverheights.com/electr...hair_dryer.jpg

Is the meter a true RMS type or averaging (cheap) type?
The marketing people will use whichever gives the higher reading.
Kevin

On Sep 16, 9:57 pm, "Don Young" wrote:
"Mikepier" wrote in message

...

I know that you cannot use 14 gauge wire in a 20amp circuit because 14
gauge can only handle 15 amps, but I ran into a problem with my
bathroom remodel.
I have a huge mirror on one wall that also has a vanity bar light on
it that was stuck on the mirror with adhesive. The idiot who put the
mirror on did not cut out the box opening, but rather just cut out a
1" hole. The wire feeding behind the mirror is a 14 gauge wire. There
is no way I can get a 12 gauge wire inside the box because of the
small opening in the mirror. And I can't even use the 14 gauge as a
drag line to pull because its clamped in the box, and plus it's fed
from the bottom.
So my question is being that since the vanity light is the only load
that the 14 gauge wire is feeding, any problem with tapping off the
new 20A circuit that I ran? I figure the thin wiring inside the vanity
would fry first anyway before the 14 gauge would if there was a
problem.
Otherwise I would have to tear down the mirrored wall to get to the
box.

If it matters to you, you should know that what you have is not code
compliant. All junction and outlet boxes are supposed to be accesssible, and
this one obviously isn't. A mirror or other non-removable covering over a
box should be cut out to the edges of the boxes and the fixture should cover
the opening. Of course, lots of people figure codes are just to make more
money for the electricians!

Don Young

If the light fixture itself is rated as a junction box, then no box is
needed in the wall. This usually is the case with fluorescent fixtures
into which the cable is led via a small hole; such fixtures have no
mounting provision for an octagon box. If the fixture has been made to
mount on an octagon box, then of course it ought to have been mounted
on one, which would require a much larger hole in the mirror.

Assuming the OP is in the US, he might find a solution using the
12/2/2 cable that I hear is available there; use one pair to feed the
receptacle on a 20A breaker and the other pair would junction onto the
old 14/2 to go to the light on a 15A breaker. A huge waste of copper
and he's already pulled 12/2 to the outlet, so this is not an
appealing solution, but it might be a consideration for someone else
who's facing a similar spot.

(If the OP happens to be in Canada, he needs to remember that Canadian
code mandates 15A breakers on any circuit containing a lighting
fixture, even if it's all wired 12-ga.)

To my mind the worst of it is the junction box in the ceiling. That's
going to require a cover plate, a monument to the original bad work.

Chip C
Toronto

On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Kevin Ricks wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:02:46 -0700 (PDT), terry
wrote:

But didn't know that *North American 115 volt hair dryers come in such
high power versions! The only ones have seen here (Canada) have been
around 1300 watts IIRC. Maybe am out of date here? Although some
Canadian electrical codes occasionally seems to be a bit tougher than
USA and UL etc.

They don't. This is the same creative rating method they use to make
6HP compressors that plug into a 14a receptacle.

http://esteroriverheights.com/electr...hair_dryer.jpg

Is the meter a true RMS type or averaging (cheap) type?
The marketing people will use whichever gives the higher reading.
Kevin

For the 3 hour explanation. I learnt something. Thanks. Fortunately
leaving a low wattage curling iron plugged in plus the short term use
of the hair dryer should be fine.
Also to my mind there is always difference between something one does
temporarily which is 'right at the limit' and something that is not in
accordance with code for the long term for use by those who do not
understand.
For example using a welder intermittently on a too small or too long
an extension cord and getting away with it because you have someone
else watching. The extension wire is outside in free air and if it did
catch fire you immediately disconnect and since you are welding have a
fire extinguisher at hand!.
Compare that to someone who incompetently hooks up their clothes dryer
with wrong AWG and puts pennies in place of blown fuses! Yup seen
that!
Also seen every appliance in a rural kitchen plugged into the ceiling
light socket using a Christmas tree light extension cord! And wondered
how with the extension cord getting hot the fridge ever got enough
voltage to start! "Yes ma'am that's why the TV goes to about half
width each time the well water pump starts". But it's amazing what
WILL work at times; just!
Was at a home construction area yesterday; three 115 volt extensions
across the street, we just drove over them, plugged into one extension
box from a completed home! At a glance all thee looked to be the usual
18 or 16 AWG all plugged into another that at best was #12; maybe
#14?
"Hey boss this skilsaw don't cut too good"! :-)

If the light fixture itself is rated as a junction box, then no box is
needed in the wall. This usually is the case with fluorescent fixtures
into which the cable is led via a small hole; such fixtures have no
mounting provision for an octagon box. If the fixture has been made to
mount on an octagon box, then of course it ought to have been mounted
on one, which would require a much larger hole in the mirror.

The 8 light vanity bar light was adhered to the mirror with mastic or
glue. The existing wire comes out of the box, through the hole in the
mirror, then out through the fixture hole, which has a grommet. Are
you saying I can drill through fixture and mirror opening and into the
electrical box to make a hole, then just snake the wire down through
this new hole and just let it come out of the fixture the way the
existing one is doing now? That might be do-able.

On Sep 18, 11:52 am, Mikepier wrote:
If the light fixture itself is rated as a junction box, then no box is
needed in the wall. This usually is the case with fluorescent fixtures
into which the cable is led via a small hole; such fixtures have no
mounting provision for an octagon box. If the fixture has been made to
mount on an octagon box, then of course it ought to have been mounted
on one, which would require a much larger hole in the mirror.

The 8 light vanity bar light was adhered to the mirror with mastic or
glue. The existing wire comes out of the box, through the hole in the
mirror, then out through the fixture hole, which has a grommet. Are
you saying I can drill through fixture and mirror opening and into the
electrical box to make a hole, then just snake the wire down through
this new hole and just let it come out of the fixture the way the
existing one is doing now? That might be do-able.

Well, I don't know about making your own hole in the bar. I'd be more
comfortable using it as the manufacturer had it certified.

But yeah, as I understand it, if the fixture bar is a totally enclosed
box, with a grommeted hole for entry of the romex, then there normally
isn't a junction box at all. The cable can run within the wall, out
through a hole in the wall (ie, wallboard+mirror), and in through the
grommeted hole, which obviously needs to be exactly aligned with the
hole in the wall. Then you make the connections to the fixture's
internal wiring within the bar, which must be accessible from the
front somehow. I've only seen this with fluorescent fixtures but I've
never installed a bathroom light bar.

Here's a blog from someone who is replacing such a fixture with one
that needs a junction box:
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...iling4/pvc.htm.
In the first picture you can see the cabling emerging from a small
hole in the ceiling. This is, I believe, correct, for an appropriate
fixture. In this case, there ought not to be (or does not need to be)
any junction box in the ceiling at all. CERTAINLY if there is a box
there must be no splice made in it, the cable should be continuous all
the way back to the prior accessible junction (switch, other fixture,
etc.)

My guess is that there is a junction box behind the mirror dating from
some original over-mirror fixture; and when the new big mirror went
up, they spliced a short pigtail within that box and led it through
the hole in the new mirror. See if you can push a long nail through
the hole and figure out whether there's a box there or not.

Chip C
Toronto

Mikepier wrote:
....
The 8 light vanity bar light was adhered to the mirror with mastic or
glue. The existing wire comes out of the box, through the hole in the
mirror, then out through the fixture hole, which has a grommet. Are
you saying I can drill through fixture and mirror opening and into the
electrical box to make a hole, then just snake the wire down through
this new hole and just let it come out of the fixture the way the
existing one is doing now? That might be do-able.

Too many "the hole"'s...I have no clue what the arrangement is or what
the objective is any more from this.

But, if the new hole includes a cable clamp that part would be ok.

There's no real provision against adding a hole in an existing box, but
it'll be a pita to do it by drilling thru some other small hole and
highly prone to damaging whatever else is already in there so that part
I'd not recommend.

IIRC this is an outside wall? What's the siding material? If you're
adamant you're not going to take this fixture down and access it that
way, if it's simply siding of some sort, going in that way isn't
necessarily much worse than drywall.

Again, I can't envision what you're trying to do from the above -- a
picture somewhere could be worth more than the thousands of words
already expended...

--

etc.)

My guess is that there is a junction box behind the mirror dating from
some original over-mirror fixture; and when the new big mirror went
up, they spliced a short pigtail within that box and led it through
the hole in the new mirror. See if you can push a long nail through
the hole and figure out whether there's a box there or not.

Chip C
There is a box behind the mirror, I can see it. I wanted to try and
push the existing wires inside out of the way, then drill through the
grommet hole/fixture/mirror/wallboard and through the box.