This follows up a previous thread, "Recipe to restore VOCs?", in which
I asked about improving the performance (water repellency, longevity)
of the new low-VOC oil-based deck stains. I didn't get much back that
was useful.
I've looked online at a lot of MSDS (material safety data sheet)
documents, and found that pure linseed oil (the traditional base of
most oil paints and stains) is essentially ZERO VOC.
Raw linseed oil takes a long time to dry (tung oil takes even longer),
hence the addition of drying accelerants. "Boiled" linseed oil adds a
broad range of solvents and drying agents to speed this up, and THESE
are the things which determine the VOC level, toxicity,
carcinogenicity, etc. It can STILL be VOC-compliant.
THEREFORE, it should be perfectly legal ANYWHERE to add raw or
(compliant) boiled linseed oil to any oil-based paint or stain,
assuming no compatibility problems. (Does anyone have a serious
objection?) The question I have is: HOW MUCH? Like, some fraction of a
cup to a gallon?
In comparison, the solvents turpentine and mineral spirits are
essentially 100% VOC. Is there a good reason to add a solvent to this
recipe as well? Does it further reduce drying time, or control the
viscosity, or keep the additives/colorants/etc in solution, or maybe
help soak the oil into the wood? If so, how much? Or can it be
ignored?
Has anyone experimented with this, successfully or not?

wrote:
This follows up a previous thread, "Recipe to restore VOCs?", in which
I asked about improving the performance (water repellency, longevity)
of the new low-VOC oil-based deck stains. I didn't get much back that
was useful.
I've looked online at a lot of MSDS (material safety data sheet)
documents, and found that pure linseed oil (the traditional base of
most oil paints and stains) is essentially ZERO VOC.
Raw linseed oil takes a long time to dry (tung oil takes even longer),
hence the addition of drying accelerants. "Boiled" linseed oil adds a
broad range of solvents and drying agents to speed this up, and THESE
are the things which determine the VOC level, toxicity,
carcinogenicity, etc. It can STILL be VOC-compliant.
THEREFORE, it should be perfectly legal ANYWHERE to add raw or
(compliant) boiled linseed oil to any oil-based paint or stain,
assuming no compatibility problems. (Does anyone have a serious
objection?) The question I have is: HOW MUCH? Like, some fraction of a
cup to a gallon?
In comparison, the solvents turpentine and mineral spirits are
essentially 100% VOC. Is there a good reason to add a solvent to this
recipe as well? Does it further reduce drying time, or control the
viscosity, or keep the additives/colorants/etc in solution, or maybe
help soak the oil into the wood? If so, how much? Or can it be
ignored?
Has anyone experimented with this, successfully or not?


Adding VOC's is not going to improve any product. In order to satisfy
VOC regulations, products were reformulated which means that not only
proportions were changed but different ingredients were used. You're
wasting your time.

wrote:
....

Has anyone experimented with this, successfully or not?

Yes, the coatings/finishes manufacturers have experimented w/ this
extensively.

Look for some of the articles and/or responses in Q&A section of FWW and
similar publications supplied by Chris Minck to learn a great deal about
finish chemistry.

--

On 9/16/2008 12:28 AM spake thus:

This follows up a previous thread, "Recipe to restore VOCs?", in which
I asked about improving the performance (water repellency, longevity)
of the new low-VOC oil-based deck stains. I didn't get much back that
was useful.
I've looked online at a lot of MSDS (material safety data sheet)
documents, and found that pure linseed oil (the traditional base of
most oil paints and stains) is essentially ZERO VOC.
Raw linseed oil takes a long time to dry (tung oil takes even longer),
hence the addition of drying accelerants. "Boiled" linseed oil adds a
broad range of solvents and drying agents to speed this up, and THESE
are the things which determine the VOC level, toxicity,
carcinogenicity, etc. It can STILL be VOC-compliant.

That's probably true (that boiled linseed oil is VOC-compliant). Minor
correction to what you wrote: the thing that makes boiled linseed oil
drying is the addition of drying agents, which, as I understand it, are
metallic salts. (Which is why one doesn't want to use this stuff on
anything that comes in contact with food.) Really has nothing to do with
the addition of solvents; after all, that's part of the vehicle, which
doesn't affect drying (polymerization or whatever).


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

On Sep 16, 5:03�am, Frank frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet wrote:

Adding VOC's is not going to improve any product. �In order to satisfy
VOC regulations, products were reformulated which means that not only
proportions were changed but different ingredients were used. �You're
wasting your time.


Frank - My purpose is to restore water repellancy to my deck stain.
The new stuff doesn't do it. My comments were primarily about adding
VOC-compliant boiled linseed oil. The solvent questions were posed
only because I had seen many formulations for other purposes online
(concrete, furniture, boats, etc) that used a mixture, and I wondered
if there were good reasons to do so.
I will repeat this: raw linseed oil is essentially ZERO VOC. Look it
up if you don't believe me; the MSDS docs are online. It dries by
oxidation, not evaporation. Same with tung oil. They actually increase
their weight by 12 - 16% in the process, according to what I've read.
If I chose to, I could mix raw linseed oil (zero VOC) with turpentine
or mineral spirits (100% VOC) in a ratio of 2 to 1 or so and STILL
comply with a 350 g/l VOC limit. Obviously, I couldn't "correctly" mix
these solvents with boiled linseed oil if the latter was already at
that limit. Wink, wink.
You're right about formulation differences, which is why I brought up
the compatibility issue and asked if anyone had tried it.
I don't think I'm wasting my time yet.

On Sep 16, 11:39�am, David Nebenzahl wrote:

That's probably true (that boiled linseed oil is VOC-compliant). Minor
correction to what you wrote: the thing that makes boiled linseed oil
drying is the addition of drying agents, which, as I understand it, are
metallic salts. (Which is why one doesn't want to use this stuff on
anything that comes in contact with food.) Really has nothing to do with
the addition of solvents; after all, that's part of the vehicle, which
doesn't affect drying (polymerization or whatever).


Dave - The metallic salts part is true, but that's an issue of
toxicity, not VOC compliance. And not all of them are dangerous. I'm
still not sure about the solvent part, though. It IS a component in
the various formulations, and I assume there's a good reason. Example:
concrete treatment is 50/50 boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits.
Why? I dunno. Maybe for penetration rather than drying. And if that's
the case, I'd say it was a GOOD idea. That's another question that
needs answering.

wrote:
....
Why? I dunno. Maybe for penetration rather than drying. And if that's
the case, I'd say it was a GOOD idea. That's another question that
needs answering.

As I said earlier, find and read stuff Chris Minck writes -- he's a
professional finishes chemist and gives the reasons behind all this
stuff in layman terms in articles and Q&A columns in FWW in particular
that I'm aware of.

--

On 9/16/2008 5:05 PM dpb spake thus:

wrote:
...
Why? I dunno. Maybe for penetration rather than drying. And if that's
the case, I'd say it was a GOOD idea. That's another question that
needs answering.

As I said earlier, find and read stuff Chris Minck writes -- he's a
professional finishes chemist and gives the reasons behind all this
stuff in layman terms in articles and Q&A columns in FWW in particular
that I'm aware of.

I second that emotion. Haven't looked at FWW for a while (used to be a
subscriber), but I remember that their writers were very good at
demystifying and explaining whatever process, material or tool they were
writing about.

And to answer the question before that, yes, pretty sure the solvent in
deck coatings is for penetration and has nothing to do with drying
(apart from possibly slowing it down).


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

David Nebenzahl wrote:
....
And to answer the question before that, yes, pretty sure the solvent in
deck coatings is for penetration and has nothing to do with drying
(apart from possibly slowing it down).

The solvent's purpose is what it says--it's what the rest of the
finishes are either dissolved or suspended in. W/O the solvents, the
can would be a bunch of other stuff w/ nothing to mix it up with.
Kinda' like a cake batter w/o the milk/liquid.

--

dpb wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
And to answer the question before that, yes, pretty sure the
solvent in deck coatings is for penetration and has nothing to do
with drying (apart from possibly slowing it down).

The solvent's purpose is what it says--it's what the rest of the
finishes are either dissolved or suspended in. W/O the solvents, the
can would be a bunch of other stuff w/ nothing to mix it up with.
Kinda' like a cake batter w/o the milk/liquid.

Interesting note:
I opened a new, customer-supplied can of oil-based paint a few months
ago to paint a cabinet. (Sorry, but I don't remember the manufacturer.)
The paint came out of the can in a big clump, almost like a can of dog
food. Well, maybe not _that_ solid, but it gives you the visual. It
bent and broke after a couple of inches of paint slid out.

I had to add a quart of thinner before I could brush it on, never mind
spraying. They certainly solved the VOC issue!

On the plus side, I got two gallons of paint in a one-gallon can.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX

On Sep 16, 6:05�pm, dpb wrote:

As I said earlier, find and read stuff Chris Minck writes -- he's a
professional finishes chemist and gives the reasons behind all this
stuff in layman terms in articles and Q&A columns in FWW in particular
that I'm aware of.


I did. And that's MINICK. I went through all the articles, Q&A and
letters at the Fine Woodworking site. I'm not a member, so I didn't
read his featured article (was anything useful there?). I also GOOGLED
"Chris Minick" and found several references to his recipes and info.

Examples:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworki....aspx?id=24136

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...rior_Door.html

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=32762

http://www.lcwoodworkers.com/images/...e/WW200607.pdf

http://www.hrsms.org/publications/ne...5Jan2001.shtml

The entry about adding paraffin for posts was particularly novel.

But I found nothing about trying to boost the newer retail oil stains
specifically (or, for that matter, paints); most of the above was from
scratch or mixed with varnish. (Incidentally, most involved BOTH
boiled linseed oil AND a solvent.)
They made for interesting reading, but none actually answered my
questions. Did I miss something?