Our copper pipes are developing pinhole leaks - usual story. Got epoxy
relining estimates from the big names - Ace DuraFlo, NuFlow, CuraFlo.
They are similarly priced +/- 10% of each other. I understand why,
when done well, this process would solve the problem with minimal
hassle. Here's the issue. They show a small piece of copper, perfectly
coated in lab conditions with a smooth, thin epoxy layer and explain
that's "more or less" what my pipes will look like when they're done.
The rub is - nobody can't tell because you don't actually open the
relined pipes to look inside.
Today a plumber came in for an unrelated issue and I asked him about
this epoxy relining. He said "give me a minute", ran to his car and
brought back a piece of copper pipe relined with white epoxy. It
looked quite bad inside. The white epoxy filled ~1/2 the pipe,
probably the bottom half of a horizontal line. The upper half of the
pipe was coated with ~1/16" thick material. All of it was wavy,
nothing smooth there. The end result: epoxy reduced the original 3/4"
pipe to an effective 1/2" or so. The guy said a lady paid Ace Duraflo
quite a bit to have her house epoxy-relined and then was fed up with
the problem and paid the plumbers to yank it all out and reline the
entire house with brand new copper. They kept samples to show around.

This may be reality or it may be non-typical. Before spending 9-10K on
our house, we thought we would look for actual opinions on the forum.
Did you have your copper pipes epoxy-relined? By whom? Can you share
your experience with us?

Thanks
GS

On Sep 11, 4:05�pm, Gershon wrote:
Our copper pipes are developing pinhole leaks - usual story. Got epoxy
relining estimates from the big names - Ace DuraFlo, NuFlow, CuraFlo.
They are similarly priced +/- 10% of each other. I understand why,
when done well, this process would solve the problem with minimal
hassle. Here's the issue. They show a small piece of copper, perfectly
coated in lab conditions with a smooth, thin epoxy layer and explain
that's "more or less" what my pipes will look like when they're done.
The rub is - nobody can't tell because you don't actually open the
relined pipes to look inside.
Today a plumber came in for an unrelated issue and I asked him about
this epoxy relining. He said "give me a minute", ran to his car and
brought back a piece of copper pipe relined with white epoxy. It
looked quite bad inside. The white epoxy filled ~1/2 the pipe,
probably the bottom half of a horizontal line. The upper half of the
pipe was coated with ~1/16" thick material. All of it was wavy,
nothing smooth there. The end result: epoxy reduced the original 3/4"
pipe to an effective 1/2" or so. The guy said a lady paid Ace Duraflo
quite a bit to have her house epoxy-relined and then was fed up with
the problem and paid the plumbers to yank it all out and reline the
entire house with brand new copper. They kept samples to show around.

This may be reality or it may be non-typical. Before spending 9-10K on
our house, we thought we would look for actual opinions on the forum.
Did you have your copper pipes epoxy-relined? By whom? Can you share
your experience with us?

Thanks
GS

Replace with PEX, costs less, one line to each fixture, no connections
in walls etc

Replace with PEX, costs less, one line to each fixture, no connections
in walls etc

Thanks for the advice but for now I'm looking for specific (good or
bad) testimonials from people who had their copper pipes epoxy-
relined.

GS

On Sep 11, 3:20*pm, Gershon wrote:
Replace with PEX, costs less, one line to each fixture, no connections
in walls etc

Thanks for the advice but for now I'm looking for specific (good or
bad) testimonials from people who had their copper pipes epoxy-
relined.

GS

Epoxy lined? Yea look hard, look long, unless your warranty is iron
clad for years of cost, even then will they be in business in x
years? , doubtfull.

On Sep 11, 3:20*pm, Gershon wrote:
Replace with PEX, costs less, one line to each fixture, no connections
in walls etc

Thanks for the advice but for now I'm looking for specific (good or
bad) testimonials from people who had their copper pipes epoxy-
relined.

GS

Why on earth are you so stubbornly intent on wasting money? You've
already had one qualified opinion that the relining process is prone
to problems. Consider the physical facts of the process: To fully coat
the pipe interior it must be totally filled with polymer mixture, then
drained. If you believe that drainage will occur properly on an uphill
run, you are dreaming. Faucets and valves must be removed to avoid
damage, of course. After draining, the mixture needs substantial time
to cure properly despite claims to the contrary. All things
considered, epoxy relining may be a reasonable fix for a simple street
to meter line to the house, if you are prepared to accept reduced
water flow rates.
The idea of decision making based on testimonials (opinions) of people
with no real data on problems like flow rates is absurd. The facts
a you have corrosive water. Your plumbing needs to be substantially
resistant to corrosion. CPVC and Pex systems have many years service
in such conditions. Get past the denial, get some quotes, pick the
best company and have them do the job. You'll save money and add value
to your property. HTH

Joe

Guys, I really appreciate your insight and advice extolling the
virtues of PEX. It is a logical option IF I wanted to redo the entire
water system. I'm not at that point yet. I believe yanking out all
existing copper pipes and replacing with PEX involves opening walls
and a fairly big mess [true? false?]. Just trying to get the facts
straight.
Before I trash the epoxy relining idea, I'd really like to hear from
people who had it done and are now living with it. Always worth
listening to both sides. Maybe that one Ace Duraflo job was done by an
incompetent crew, leading to the unusable system. Maybe they did it
right and that's the best this process can deliver. I don't know.
Which is why I'm asking for some reliable, i.e. first hand,
information. Hope someone can share their own experience.

Regards
GS

Gershon wrote:
Guys, I really appreciate your insight and advice extolling the
virtues of PEX. It is a logical option IF I wanted to redo the entire
water system. I'm not at that point yet. ...

But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

Makes sense to me...

--

But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS

But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS

But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS

Gershon wrote:
....

I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.

1 for 1 is a trend...

And you've a piece of the material to inspect firsthand; what more do
you expect?

Other stuff to consider...

http://www.pprc.org/research/epp/EpoxyPipeCoating.pdf

One process only has 10-yr warranty; how old are the pipes in the house
at present for comparison?

Cost estimates in most references I've run across are roughly equivalent
to replacement _INCLUDING_ repair of finished surfaces unless very
upgraded treatments were used.

In addition, the DuraFlo site says if they find a leak while doing the
job they repair the section, anyway.

--

--

Gershon wrote:
But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS
Hmmm,
Most thinking customers don't do stuff like that. Sounds like you are
trying to justify your intention. Similar thing on the market, the
bathtub reglazing. It does not last and custmoers did not like the
result ending up replacing the tub.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...
Gershon wrote:
But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie idea
and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS
Hmmm,
Most thinking customers don't do stuff like that. Sounds like you are
trying to justify your intention. Similar thing on the market, the bathtub
reglazing. It does not last and custmoers did not like the result ending
up replacing the tub.

We had tub/tile reglazing and it was pretty good. We sold the house so I
don't know how many years it held up after we left but it held up for
several years for us.

On Sep 11, 9:43*pm, Gershon wrote:
On Sep 11, 7:24*pm, Tony Hwang wrote:

Most thinking customers don't do stuff like that. Sounds like you are
trying to justify your intention.

My only intention is to end up with a better system at the minimum
cost and hassle.The system was originally galvanized metal, previous
owners redid everything in copper about 25 years ago. *One 15-foot
pipe in the attic is giving me headaches, pinhole leaks every year or
two. For ~$100 I can replace it myself with type K copper [I now, may
be overkill but I don't want to worry about it for many years]. Thing
is, I'm convinced there may be other weak spots = surprises I'd rather
avoid. So now we're talking about a 9K-10K job [I have a big house].
My options include epoxy relining [least mess, no opening any wall,
etc], redo the entire thing with copper, redo it with PEX, maybe
others. Copper & PEX means ripping walls open, big mess, longer time
with no water, etc etc.
Which is why I'm trying to get objective (= first hand) opinions.

Regards
GS

Metal pipe looses heat, cpvc and a foam wrap is 14x more insulating
than copper. Plastics will save energy.

Gershon wrote in
:

But you'll spend at least half as much on a half-baked, cockamamie
idea and end up redoing the house anyway?

So far I have exactly one data point about one house that was redone.
I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.
Opinions about the pros and cons do have value - yet they are just
that, opinions. First hand experience carries more weight in my book.
I'm not trying to defend epoxy relining. Just trying to collect real
information about it. Do most customers love the result? Do most
customers hate the result? Etc.

Regards
GS


So far I have exactly one data point


Well, if I asked for testimonials on the thrill of burning your own $20
bills and got no responses, isn't that a data point(s)?

Two points makes a line. Three points makes a trend.

Data point one - You asked the plumber and he said No F'n Way.
Data point two - You asked here and got no testimonials. Msg could be
no one is stupid enough to TRY something at that cost.
Data point three: - TBD?


Personally, I never heard of this epoxy thing but I'm not overly
plumbing savy. Suppose you want to make a change. add-on, replace a
leaky valve, etc at a later time. I would think if you put a torch to
these lined pipes the goop inside the pipe would just melt and ball up
someplace causing further restriction. Maybe everything has to be
compression in the future?

Another thought is what if you ever sell. This an item that must be
disclosed I wonder? Even if an RE person said no, I know if I bought a
place, had some plumbing-101 work done and it blocked up the pipes
because it was gooped up inside, I'd think lawyer at that cost of
remedy. Residential lined pipes as a "patch" is highly unconventional
and out of profile IMHO.

On Sep 11, 9:23*pm, Red Green wrote:
Residential lined pipes as a "patch" is highly unconventional and out of profile IMHO.

I think such is the nature of all new technologies. Some references
they advertise for this process (I may actually call them...)
- http://www.fixmypipes.com/casestudies/singlefamily.html
- http://www.fixmypipes.com/casestudies/schools.html

Another thought is what if you ever sell. This an item that must be disclosed I wonder?
The lifetime warranty they provide can transfer to the new owner. As
an improvement ["guaranteed no leaks"], it may help sell the house. Of
course, assuming it works well enough for me, for a few good years...

Regards
GS

dpb wrote in :

Gershon wrote:
...

I'm looking for more data points to see whether there is a trend.

1 for 1 is a trend...

And you've a piece of the material to inspect firsthand; what more do
you expect?

Other stuff to consider...

http://www.pprc.org/research/epp/EpoxyPipeCoating.pdf

I see they tortured some rabbits and rats to get this data. Yes, forcing
them to ingest huge amounts of Triethylenetetramine as well as holding
the eyes open and flooding them with it is torture. I hope the crap
hoses up everyone's pipes they use it on and they go broke.


One process only has 10-yr warranty; how old are the pipes in the
house at present for comparison?

Cost estimates in most references I've run across are roughly
equivalent to replacement _INCLUDING_ repair of finished surfaces
unless very upgraded treatments were used.

In addition, the DuraFlo site says if they find a leak while doing the
job they repair the section, anyway.

--

--

Gershon wrote:
On Sep 11, 7:24 pm, Tony Hwang wrote:
....
My only intention is to end up with a better system at the minimum
cost and hassle.

How is filling a failing piece of pipe w/ some crap and hoping it
doesn't develop a leak at the equivalent cost "better" or even "minimum"
cost? Simple answer is -- it isn't either.

I'll again note the length of the warranty on the epoxy coating is less
than half the age of the system you have now--that tell you anything?

Third-party evaluations I found indicated replacement cost _including_
the interior repair were equivalent to the lining process cost as well.

Still seems a no-brainer to me...imo you're asking for the magic bullet
and equivalent of the free lunch and there just ain't no such thing...

--

On Sep 11, 4:05*pm, Gershon wrote:
....
Did you have your copper pipes epoxy-relined? By whom? Can you share
your experience with us?

Thanks
GS


I think you are getting close to your answer. So far you have only
had one reported experience and that was from your plumber. You are
smart in checking other sources and I don't believe that your actions
to consider AND RESEARCH this was a bad idea at all.

So far it appears there are few people who have tried this and so
far none have read you messages in order to report first handed. One
other problem is I don't think you are going to be able to find anyone
with 20 years experience with this product. So likely the best
possible report would be "No problems so far."

I doubt if I would consider it until it had a long track record,
but I certainly would not consider it without a lot more positive
response than you have received so far.

Good Luck

Pinhole leaks in copper are caused by water currents near changes in
direction--like near a 90 fitting. Relining the pipe will not stop
those currents, and unless the lining is absolutely smooth, it will
actuall increase water disturbance.

Copper was supposed to be a "lifetime" product to replace galvanized.
Turns out it isn't. Now they're saying PEX is the new "lifetime"
replacment to copper. But several PEX fitting manufacturers have had
to issue recalls on their components, and no one knows how long PEX
tubing will last. Theoretically, the smooth curves of the PEX tubing
eliminate the swirling currents that eat away at copper. But who knows
what happens to the interior of those tubes 50 years from now.

If I had to spend the money, I'd replace with copper and skip the
relining.

In article e5e0ea0b-b8dc-4c27-89d7-14644a9c3423
@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com, says...

So far it appears there are few people who have tried this and so
far none have read you messages in order to report first handed. One
other problem is I don't think you are going to be able to find anyone
with 20 years experience with this product.

Shouldn't be too hard, the U.S. Navy has been using it since at least
the mid-'80s on ships at sea and in Navy housing units.

Never used it myself, but it's had some good press for multi-family
housing where the cost of down-time is much higher than in single family
residential.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

trekee had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...ua-330521-.htm
:
Well, I know this thread is quite old, but I read it before I made a
decision on epoxy lining, and figured other people might run across it as
well. I am grateful for all of the opinions expressed, but was
disappointed that the original poster never did get an actual response
from someone who had experienced epoxy lining first hand.

In my case, I didn't want to tear up my home, and being a scientist and an
engineer, I was intrigued by the concept of pipe lining. I then got
online, and started 2 months of research. After all, I didn’t have an
extra 10k lying around to make a wrong decision. I found a lot of
technical information at the NSF. UL, and IAPMO websites, but no
testimonials.

It wasn’t until I found out that a co-worker had had it done that I was
able to get an opinion. She had done her research as well, and had used
Curaflo, (She called them Brinks). She had her home epoxy lined 4 years
ago. She said that she didn’t have any problems. I still had all three
companies in San Diego come out to my home and talk to me, Ace Duraflo,
Curaflo, and NuFlow. The NuFlow salesman Andrew came out, and was every
bit the high pressure salesman! I told him that I wanted to talk to my
wife before making a decision, and he actually told I should sign now to
lock in the “Good Deal” and that I could cancel later if I wanted. What a
Joke!

In the end I went with Curaflo, Ace Duraflo didn’t seem to have a lot of
experience (I guess they are a brand new franchise) and Josh the Curaflo
sales rep spoke my language, he really knew the technical side of the
process and actually suggested I sleep on it before making a decision!
This went a long way with me.

I am sorry to say that I was all over the technicians while they were
doing the job, and they were always polite and answered all of my
questions. They also showed me around their trucks and explained how they
controlled the air flow and performed the process. I watched them perform
a very extensive before and after flow test, and they even cut out two
sections of pipe they had coated for me to inspect. The finished product
looked almost exactly like Josh’s sales samples, although there was a very
slightly thicker coating on the bottom of the pipe (1/16th of an inch) but
the 90* in the wall they cut out was perfect. I understand the dynamics
of how it worked, but I was still amazed with the end result. It actually
looked like a pipe inside a pipe. All in all, I am very happy, and the
water flow is the same as it was before in most of the house and MUCH
faster at the roman tub and hose connections, it was not reduced anywhere.

So I figure I would post here to answer the original question. I have had
the epoxy lining done, and I am very happy with the outcome! We will just
have to see if it lasts as long as the lifetime warranty.

-Mike



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In article , (trekee) writes:

| I am sorry to say that I was all over the technicians while they were
| doing the job, and they were always polite and answered all of my
| questions. They also showed me around their trucks and explained how they
| controlled the air flow and performed the process. I watched them perform
| a very extensive before and after flow test, and they even cut out two
| sections of pipe they had coated for me to inspect. The finished product
| looked almost exactly like Joshs sales samples, although there was a very
| slightly thicker coating on the bottom of the pipe (1/16th of an inch) but
| the 90* in the wall they cut out was perfect. I understand the dynamics
| of how it worked, but I was still amazed with the end result. It actually
| looked like a pipe inside a pipe. All in all, I am very happy, and the
| water flow is the same as it was before in most of the house and MUCH
| faster at the roman tub and hose connections, it was not reduced anywhere.

Do they have to remove and re-install all shutoff valves and such?

After the pipe is coated can you still solder it?

Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com

replying to dpb, Lupe Hernandez wrote:
none wrote:

...
How is filling a failing piece of pipe w/ some crap and hoping it
doesn't develop a leak at the equivalent cost "better" or even "minimum"
cost? Simple answer is -- it isn't either.
I'll again note the length of the warranty on the epoxy coating is less
than half the age of the system you have now--that tell you anything?
Third-party evaluations I found indicated replacement cost _including_
the interior repair were equivalent to the lining process cost as well.
Still seems a no-brainer to me...imo you're asking for the magic bullet
and equivalent of the free lunch and there just ain't no such thing...

So to be fair about warranties a copper repipe is guaranteed for 1 year
dura flow 10 years.

I have welded galvanized pipe getting pinhole leaks a friend had his house
done with the dura flow

5 years ago and is pleased with the result. I am on the fence there is a 5
month waiting list for

E pipe jobs around here lots of folks are getting it in a few years good
feedback should be available




--

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 12:44:02 PM UTC-4, Lupe Hernandez wrote:
replying to dpb, Lupe Hernandez wrote:

none wrote:



...

How is filling a failing piece of pipe w/ some crap and hoping it

doesn't develop a leak at the equivalent cost "better" or even "minimum"

cost? Simple answer is -- it isn't either.

I'll again note the length of the warranty on the epoxy coating is less

than half the age of the system you have now--that tell you anything?

Third-party evaluations I found indicated replacement cost _including_

the interior repair were equivalent to the lining process cost as well.

Still seems a no-brainer to me...imo you're asking for the magic bullet

and equivalent of the free lunch and there just ain't no such thing...



So to be fair about warranties a copper repipe is guaranteed for 1 year

dura flow 10 years.



I have welded galvanized pipe getting pinhole leaks a friend had his house

done with the dura flow



5 years ago and is pleased with the result. I am on the fence there is a 5

month waiting list for



E pipe jobs around here lots of folks are getting it in a few years good

feedback should be available



DO NOT COAT GALVANIZED PIPES! You cant

Since the insides of galvanized pipe are nearly always filled with rust To the point it restricts water flow greatly.....

Now repiping copper is a lot of work but because of freezing weather I redid a bunch of split copper lines for a realtive. Quick easy and cheap Although I want to buy one of those expander tools for PEX. This will cut the costs of fittings dramatically

On Wednesday, August 12, 2009 at 5:42:33 PM UTC-4, trekee wrote:
trekee had written this in response to
http://www.thestuccocompany.com/main...ua-330521-.htm
:
Well, I know this thread is quite old, but I read it before I made a
decision on epoxy lining, and figured other people might run across it as
well. I am grateful for all of the opinions expressed, but was
disappointed that the original poster never did get an actual response
from someone who had experienced epoxy lining first hand.

In my case, I didn't want to tear up my home, and being a scientist and an
engineer, I was intrigued by the concept of pipe lining. I then got
online, and started 2 months of research. After all, I didn�t have an
extra 10k lying around to make a wrong decision. I found a lot of
technical information at the NSF. UL, and IAPMO websites, but no
testimonials.

It wasn�t until I found out that a co-worker had had it done that I was
able to get an opinion. She had done her research as well, and had used
Curaflo, (She called them Brinks). She had her home epoxy lined 4 years
ago. She said that she didn�t have any problems. I still had all three
companies in San Diego come out to my home and talk to me, Ace Duraflo,
Curaflo, and NuFlow. The NuFlow salesman Andrew came out, and was every
bit the high pressure salesman! I told him that I wanted to talk to my
wife before making a decision, and he actually told I should sign now to
lock in the �Good Deal� and that I could cancel later if I wanted. What a
Joke!

In the end I went with Curaflo, Ace Duraflo didn�t seem to have a lot of
experience (I guess they are a brand new franchise) and Josh the Curaflo
sales rep spoke my language, he really knew the technical side of the
process and actually suggested I sleep on it before making a decision!
This went a long way with me.

I am sorry to say that I was all over the technicians while they were
doing the job, and they were always polite and answered all of my
questions. They also showed me around their trucks and explained how they
controlled the air flow and performed the process. I watched them perform
a very extensive before and after flow test, and they even cut out two
sections of pipe they had coated for me to inspect. The finished product
looked almost exactly like Josh�s sales samples, although there was a very
slightly thicker coating on the bottom of the pipe (1/16th of an inch) but
the 90* in the wall they cut out was perfect. I understand the dynamics
of how it worked, but I was still amazed with the end result. It actually
looked like a pipe inside a pipe. All in all, I am very happy, and the
water flow is the same as it was before in most of the house and MUCH
faster at the roman tub and hose connections, it was not reduced anywhere..

So I figure I would post here to answer the original question. I have had
the epoxy lining done, and I am very happy with the outcome! We will just
have to see if it lasts as long as the lifetime warranty.

-Mike



##-----------------------------------------------##
Delivered via http://www.thestuccocompany.com/
Building Construction and Maintenance Forum
Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup -
alt.home.repair - 368802 messages and counting!
##-----------------------------------------------##

Hi! I've been looking into all 3 companies as well. How has the Curaflo lining worked for you over the last 6 years?