I am a carpenter. Not a contractor. I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen. I have a knack for making
things look nice without spending a lot of money..I have a good nose
for bargains, a good eye for detail, etc. Rewiring that had to be
done, to accommodate new fixtures, new fan and a dimmer switch
replacement were all done by a licensed electrician.
I am dealing with my friend mostly, but lately the husband has gotten
involved in the process. The living room floors are done, they are a
good brand laminate. Installed and baseboards, shoe are coped and in
place. Now to the kitchen. No decision has been made on tile or
countertop materials...First the theme was to be "neutral", then not
to spend too much money, then they looked at all their friends and
family's stuff and made a sort of decision...only to waffle on design,
product, you name it. (remember, I am doing this free, so money or
pay is not the issue) The wife's usual comment has been "you have
good taste, just do something and i'll like it". Now the husband has
stuck his nose in it...and has NO clue what he wants, but pontificates
forever about what he thinks he wants. He nitpicks every decision, is
hard to engage as to "friendliness" and at the end of each twice or
thrice daily dissertation..he says "well, it don't matter to me
anyway". But then five minutes later, here he starts up with the
nitpicking (he knows nothing about carpentry) I don't ever dispute
color, as we all have different tastes. The end of this project is a
custom bar, but the bar is going to be the last thing to be done. And
because it will depend on some of the choices that they make...my
specialty is custom wood pieces..all unique, and quality sturdy usable
functional bartops. The husband has never been to my house, which is
a showcase of what I do, I've asked the wife to bring him...oh well.
Not that I want their house to look like mine, just to show them i
have a sense of good quality..
I am getting quite frustrated..as I don't have time to dick around
with them forever, I offered to help them, but not to babysit while
they nailed one foot to the floor. I've told them ideas, where to
shop, the necessary steps to achieve the look they want. (of course
they want it all rock bottom, but that takes some thinking and
planning, anyone can have a great looking kitchen if you spend a lot
of money)
My question to the group, what would you do? I do not want hard
feelings, as we are friends. This is the first time I've ever worked
with them. And what would I say?
My big problem is with the husband. I just for the life of me, cannot
engage him, it is just superficial babbling that I get from him...my
husband says he is just using his "game face". Game face for what?
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

cajunpaisley wrote:
I am a carpenter. Not a contractor. I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen.
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

further proof that no good deed goes unpunished.

On May 15, 2:52*pm, Joe wrote:
cajunpaisley wrote:
I am a carpenter. *Not a contractor. *I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen.
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

further proof that no good deed goes unpunished.

"further proof that no good deed goes unpunished."

I had to chuckle at that, because when I come home and relate the
day's
events and jibberish to my husband, that's exactly what we say.

I'm afraid at this point, that if I finish helping them, then they are
not
going to be happy with ANYTHING, and if I don't finish helping them,
then
I'm a jerk...so, I feel like I'm in a lose/lose situation..
Perry

On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT), cajunpaisley
wrote:

I am a carpenter. Not a contractor. I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen. I have a knack for making
things look nice without spending a lot of money..I have a good nose
for bargains, a good eye for detail, etc. Rewiring that had to be
done, to accommodate new fixtures, new fan and a dimmer switch
replacement were all done by a licensed electrician.
I am dealing with my friend mostly, but lately the husband has gotten
involved in the process. The living room floors are done, they are a
good brand laminate. Installed and baseboards, shoe are coped and in
place. Now to the kitchen. No decision has been made on tile or
countertop materials...First the theme was to be "neutral", then not
to spend too much money, then they looked at all their friends and
family's stuff and made a sort of decision...only to waffle on design,
product, you name it. (remember, I am doing this free, so money or
pay is not the issue) The wife's usual comment has been "you have
good taste, just do something and i'll like it". Now the husband has
stuck his nose in it...and has NO clue what he wants, but pontificates
forever about what he thinks he wants. He nitpicks every decision, is
hard to engage as to "friendliness" and at the end of each twice or
thrice daily dissertation..he says "well, it don't matter to me
anyway". But then five minutes later, here he starts up with the
nitpicking (he knows nothing about carpentry) I don't ever dispute
color, as we all have different tastes. The end of this project is a
custom bar, but the bar is going to be the last thing to be done. And
because it will depend on some of the choices that they make...my
specialty is custom wood pieces..all unique, and quality sturdy usable
functional bartops. The husband has never been to my house, which is
a showcase of what I do, I've asked the wife to bring him...oh well.
Not that I want their house to look like mine, just to show them i
have a sense of good quality..
I am getting quite frustrated..as I don't have time to dick around
with them forever, I offered to help them, but not to babysit while
they nailed one foot to the floor. I've told them ideas, where to
shop, the necessary steps to achieve the look they want. (of course
they want it all rock bottom, but that takes some thinking and
planning, anyone can have a great looking kitchen if you spend a lot
of money)
My question to the group, what would you do? I do not want hard
feelings, as we are friends. This is the first time I've ever worked
with them. And what would I say?
My big problem is with the husband. I just for the life of me, cannot
engage him, it is just superficial babbling that I get from him...my
husband says he is just using his "game face". Game face for what?
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

Hi Perry,

Sounds like a no-win situation and I would try to back out gracefully
now before the plot thickens; these sorts of things don't normally get
better, only worse, and unless you enjoy the constant stress and
abuse, you really need to blow Dodge. Be honest and respectful and
tell them you value their friendship and that you're worried working
with them might might put that at risk. Hopefully they'll be
flattered and you'll be able to escape without causing any hard
feelings. Good luck!

Cheers,
Paul

cajunpaisley wrote:

I'm afraid at this point, that if I finish helping them, then they are
not
going to be happy with ANYTHING, and if I don't finish helping them,
then
I'm a jerk...so, I feel like I'm in a lose/lose situation..
Perry
on top of all that because they are not paying going rate they obviously
don't see the true value in what you are doing for them. I'd try to
find a good ending place where the job doesn't look half done and back
out gracefully if possible.

"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT), cajunpaisley
wrote:

I am a carpenter. Not a contractor. I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen. I have a knack for making
things look nice without spending a lot of money..I have a good nose
for bargains, a good eye for detail, etc. Rewiring that had to be
done, to accommodate new fixtures, new fan and a dimmer switch
replacement were all done by a licensed electrician.
I am dealing with my friend mostly, but lately the husband has gotten
involved in the process. The living room floors are done, they are a
good brand laminate. Installed and baseboards, shoe are coped and in
place. Now to the kitchen. No decision has been made on tile or
countertop materials...First the theme was to be "neutral", then not
to spend too much money, then they looked at all their friends and
family's stuff and made a sort of decision...only to waffle on design,
product, you name it. (remember, I am doing this free, so money or
pay is not the issue) The wife's usual comment has been "you have
good taste, just do something and i'll like it". Now the husband has
stuck his nose in it...and has NO clue what he wants, but pontificates
forever about what he thinks he wants. He nitpicks every decision, is
hard to engage as to "friendliness" and at the end of each twice or
thrice daily dissertation..he says "well, it don't matter to me
anyway". But then five minutes later, here he starts up with the
nitpicking (he knows nothing about carpentry) I don't ever dispute
color, as we all have different tastes. The end of this project is a
custom bar, but the bar is going to be the last thing to be done. And
because it will depend on some of the choices that they make...my
specialty is custom wood pieces..all unique, and quality sturdy usable
functional bartops. The husband has never been to my house, which is
a showcase of what I do, I've asked the wife to bring him...oh well.
Not that I want their house to look like mine, just to show them i
have a sense of good quality..
I am getting quite frustrated..as I don't have time to dick around
with them forever, I offered to help them, but not to babysit while
they nailed one foot to the floor. I've told them ideas, where to
shop, the necessary steps to achieve the look they want. (of course
they want it all rock bottom, but that takes some thinking and
planning, anyone can have a great looking kitchen if you spend a lot
of money)
My question to the group, what would you do? I do not want hard
feelings, as we are friends. This is the first time I've ever worked
with them. And what would I say?
My big problem is with the husband. I just for the life of me, cannot
engage him, it is just superficial babbling that I get from him...my
husband says he is just using his "game face". Game face for what?
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

Hi Perry,

Sounds like a no-win situation and I would try to back out gracefully
now before the plot thickens; these sorts of things don't normally get
better, only worse, and unless you enjoy the constant stress and
abuse, you really need to blow Dodge. Be honest and respectful and
tell them you value their friendship and that you're worried working
with them might might put that at risk. Hopefully they'll be
flattered and you'll be able to escape without causing any hard
feelings. Good luck!

Cheers,
Paul


I agree with Paul. It sounds like a no-win situation. I think that you
should step back from the project and let everyone take a breather. Maybe
they are not happy with your work, your taste, your pay, or something else,
but because of the friendship cannot come right out and say it. Maybe
they're just idiots who have no idea what is involved in the remodeling
process. If everything that you posted is true it sounds as though they
have a gem of a carpenter. Tell them you have other projects that you need
to tend to and when they are truly ready you will be happy to do the work if
they want. That will give them an out and they can see for themselves what
it is like to try and hire good people to do good work if they decide to
look elsewhere.

PS: You probably should start charging for consultations on all of your jobs
or raise your rates to cover your time spent in the planning stage.

On May 15, 2:43*pm, cajunpaisley wrote:
I am a carpenter. *Not a contractor. *I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen. *I have a knack for making
things look nice without spending a lot of money..I have a good nose
for bargains, a good eye for detail, etc. *Rewiring that had to be
done, to accommodate new fixtures, new fan and a dimmer switch
replacement were all done by a licensed electrician.
I am dealing with my friend mostly, but lately the husband has gotten
involved in the process. *The living room floors are done, they are a
good brand laminate. *Installed and baseboards, shoe are coped and in
place. *Now to the kitchen. *No decision has been made on tile or
countertop materials...First the theme was to be "neutral", then not
to spend too much money, then they looked at all their friends and
family's stuff and made a sort of decision...only to waffle on design,
product, you name it. *(remember, I am doing this free, so money or
pay is not the issue) *The wife's usual comment has been "you have
good taste, just do something and i'll like it". *Now the husband has
stuck his nose in it...and has NO clue what he wants, but pontificates
forever about what he thinks he wants. *He nitpicks every decision, is
hard to engage as to "friendliness" and at the end of each twice or
thrice daily dissertation..he says "well, it don't matter to me
anyway". *But then five minutes later, here he starts up with the
nitpicking (he knows nothing about carpentry) *I don't ever dispute
color, as we all have different tastes. *The end of this project is a
custom bar, but the bar is going to be the last thing to be done. *And
because it will depend on some of the choices that they make...my
specialty is custom wood pieces..all unique, and quality sturdy usable
functional bartops. *The husband has never been to my house, which is
a showcase of what I do, I've asked the wife to bring him...oh well.
Not that I want their house to look like mine, just to show them i
have a sense of good quality..
I am getting quite frustrated..as I don't have time to dick around
with them forever, I offered to help them, but not to babysit while
they nailed one foot to the floor. *I've told them ideas, where to
shop, the necessary steps to achieve the look they want. (of course
they want it all rock bottom, but that takes some thinking and
planning, anyone can have a great looking kitchen if you spend a lot
of money)
My question to the group, what would you do? *I do not want hard
feelings, as we are friends. *This is the first time I've ever worked
with them. *And what would I say?
My big problem is with the husband. *I just for the life of me, cannot
engage him, it is just superficial babbling that I get from him...my
husband says he is just using his "game face". *Game face for what?
The wife tells me one thing when it's just she and i, but when she's
around her husband, she parrots him.
Perry

You shouldnt work a job that big for free, id leave till they get
their act together and you are treated with respect.

"cajunpaisley" wrote in message
...

I am a carpenter. Not a contractor. I've offered to help a friend re-
do her living room floors and kitchen.


Maybe the husband is suspicious of the friendship.

Suspicious, how?
I'm a woman, so what would he be suspicious of?

I don't think that's it. I think the husband is just a nitpicker by habit,
just for the sport of it. Being in someone's house for a couple of weeks
working, you see the inner workings of the "couple" dynamics..I've been in
houses where there is good karma and things go smooth. I've been in houses,
that seemingly look like Mayberry RFD and it's hellish...
I usually try to *train* my clients, because I almost get called back for
more work, and once they know the ropes..decision making, linear thinking,
etc..they feel like they have a hand in the process. All my usual and
customary teachings have gone unheeded in this case. They are friends and
what I offered was to "help" the wife do the work herself. She's energetic
and is a motivated worker. But cannot, cannot make a decision, so comes to
ask me "what do I think?". I tell her, a couple of suggestions...then she
analyzes to death her possible decision. At first she wanted to be a
"neutral, and have nothing bold"..and of course, inexpensive. But now
because I'm not charging for labor, the budget has tripled for the kitchen
floor.
The husband, I almost had to wrestle, because he wanted to take out a load
bearing member. We cut a 30 sq ft hole in the wall between the kitchen and
tv room and he claims the remaining load bearing members are "a blind spot".
Duh...what about the big hole where there was none?
I am away from there for a couple of days, so I will use my time to think of
a way to detach, dis-entangle and not encourage further decision
debacles...but I will hopefully finish the work, and hopefully, my goal was
the woman to feel good about doing a lot of it herself, hands on, with some
guidance...what the man thinks, I could care less.
Perry

cajunpaisley wrote:

I'm a jerk...so, I feel like I'm in a lose/lose situation..
Perry

You are in a lose / lose situation. Get out NOW you are not appreciated!
They are taking advantage of your good nature. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN,
YOUR WORTH MORE!

--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586

On Thu, 15 May 2008 17:12:32 -0500, "perrylep"
wrote:

I am away from there for a couple of days, so I will use my time to think of
a way to detach, dis-entangle and not encourage further decision
debacles...but I will hopefully finish the work, and hopefully, my goal was
the woman to feel good about doing a lot of it herself, hands on, with some
guidance...what the man thinks, I could care less.

Invite the couple to your home for dinner. That's your turf. When I
deal with difficult people I prefer to be in my "lions den" / turf.
They seem to be more open minded and to listen. You could even meet in
public, so you can tell them your exact feelings and thoughts. In
public they are less likely to "go off" and make a scene.

When you are in their home, you become the timid one so to speak.

I think it would be best to have "sit down talk" and tell them exactly
what you've said here in the group.

You will have a better chance of getting things across on your turf.

On May 15, 3:43 pm, cajunpaisley wrote:
The wife's usual comment has been "you have
good taste, just do something and i'll like it". Now the husband has
stuck his nose in it...and has NO clue what he wants, but pontificates
forever about what he thinks he wants. He nitpicks every decision, is
hard to engage as to "friendliness" and at the end of each twice or
thrice daily dissertation..he says "well, it don't matter to me
anyway". But then five minutes later, here he starts up with the
nitpicking (he knows nothing about carpentry)

Every "committee" has at least one member singularly devoted to
queering the deal.

The trick is, staying out of it and getting the the remainder of the
committee to deal with the deal queerer, without ****ing off that
segment of the committee.

Working for free basically makes you impotent.

If you had the option of charging for each change order, then you have
some influence. All you have is the option to quit, and I suggest you
mention it.
-----

- gpsman

My suggestion is to set up a reasonable time line for the remaining
work. Sit down with the husband and wife and explain that due to your
family obligations you need to finish the project by a given date.
Explain after that, you will not be available and that they will need
to hire someone to finish the job. This gives them an incentive to
make the necessary decisions in a timely fashion and gives you a out
hopefully without hurting the relationship. The hard part is to call
it quits when you reach your drop dead date. You must be firm. They
should understand that you have a life too.

My suggestion is to set up a reasonable time line for the remaining
work. Sit down with the husband and wife and explain that due to your
family obligations you need to finish the project by a given date.
Explain after that, you will not be available and that they will need
to hire someone to finish the job. This gives them an incentive to
make the necessary decisions in a timely fashion and gives you a out
hopefully without hurting the relationship. The hard part is to call
it quits when you reach your drop dead date. You must be firm. They
should understand that you have a life too.