Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? And if so would it also protect any 115 outlets downstream of
it?

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.
Or blank it off?

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

BTW; As a separate topic; while we have several GFCI protected outside
outlets, if necessary to extend power outside from a non GFCI outlet
inside the house we used a GFCI duplex outlet that is of a type that
does not provided downstream protection to other outlets and mounted
it on end of a substantial extension.

Comments welcome. TIA

buffalo ny: i'm not an electrician, but as you keep your left hand in
your pocket safely, then write a check to pay an electrician and hand
it to him with with your right hand, he will probably notice you are
overfeeding the very first described 15A device with its panel 20A
breaker and its 20 amp wire.

I've been told that there is a special exception for 15 amp outlets on a 20
amp circuit. So long as the wire gauge is #12 or larger, the wiring isn't
a problem.

You can get GFCIs in eiher a 15 or 20 Amp version. The 20 amp just cost a
$1 or 2 more but unless you have an machine with a 20 amp plug you just
don't need a 20 amp outlet.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Why do you need GFI in the first place? Is it code if you are working
on a concrete floor in a garage?

"terry" wrote in message
...
Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? And if so would it also protect any 115 outlets downstream of
it?

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.
Or blank it off?

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

BTW; As a separate topic; while we have several GFCI protected outside
outlets, if necessary to extend power outside from a non GFCI outlet
inside the house we used a GFCI duplex outlet that is of a type that
does not provided downstream protection to other outlets and mounted
it on end of a substantial extension.

Comments welcome. TIA

On any multiwire circuit, the neutral only takes the imbalance of the two
hot legs. A double pole, three wire GFCI is designed for this and will work
properly for what you're doing. This is essentially the same thing as a GFCI
breaker feeding a hot tub. It protects both 120 and 240 volt circuits in the
spa

Mikepier wrote:
Why do you need GFI in the first place? Is it code if you are working
on a concrete floor in a garage?

120V, 15 & 20A receptacles in a garage require GFCI protection. The 240V
one does not (but you may want to use a GFCI breaker for safety). For
purposes of shock, the concrete floor is a good ground.


The code allows 15A outlets on 20A circuits. This is very common with
120V receptacles. Not obvious to me that the intent was to include 240V
outlets, but I don't see any restriction.

--
bud--

"terry" wrote in message
...
Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? And if so would it also protect any 115 outlets downstream of
it?

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.
Or blank it off?

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

BTW; As a separate topic; while we have several GFCI protected outside
outlets, if necessary to extend power outside from a non GFCI outlet
inside the house we used a GFCI duplex outlet that is of a type that
does not provided downstream protection to other outlets and mounted
it on end of a substantial extension.

Comments welcome. TIA


Simply put, you cannot have a GFCI breaker for a 3 wire cable where two
seperate branches share the same neutral. The GFCI breaker requires
independent wiring of the neutral for each branch circuit.

The only way you can do it is with a GFCI receptacle in the first fixture on
each branch after the neutral is split. You can do a split outlet, you just
need to use two seperate neutrals and break the tabs off both sides of the
receptacles not just the hot side.

I don't really follow your GFCI the 230V first to get both115V logic but I
think a 230V GFCI breaker would cost more than a 3 pack of 120V GFCI
Receptacles. Easiest thing to do is put one in each required location and
not worry about downstream wiring.

On May 15, 2:23 am, terry wrote:
Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Around here, I think it's non-code to split a 115V circuit off a 230
one. No idea if that's true where you are. Your inspector will know.

At any rate, if you want to put a 20A breaker on this, all the wiring
all the way to the end must be 12ga or heavier. You might as well use
20A T-slots for those 115V outlets, but I believe you don't have to
(contrary to popular opinion).

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Yup. Your only option, if you want to put GF protection on the whole
circuit, is a dual-pole GFCI breaker in the panel. Brace yourself,
these aren't cheap.

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? [...]

Don't think so.

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.

Yes, that would work, if you and your inspector decide the 230 V
outlet doesn't need GF protection.

[...]

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

Yes, exactly. Up here, split outlets are still common and legal for
kitchens; only outlets within 1 metre of the sink need to be GF
protected. Those *can* be protected by a dual-pole GFCI in the panel,
but they may also be 20A single-circuit GFCI outlets.

Chip C
Toronto

bud-- wrote:
Mikepier wrote:

Why do you need GFI in the first place? Is it code if you are working
on a concrete floor in a garage?


120V, 15 & 20A receptacles in a garage require GFCI protection. The 240V
one does not (but you may want to use a GFCI breaker for safety). For
purposes of shock, the concrete floor is a good ground.


The code allows 15A outlets on 20A circuits. This is very common with
120V receptacles. Not obvious to me that the intent was to include 240V
outlets, but I don't see any restriction.

Hmmm,
Worstr case of shock is death!

pipedown wrote:
"terry" wrote in message
...
Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? And if so would it also protect any 115 outlets downstream of
it?

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.
Or blank it off?

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

BTW; As a separate topic; while we have several GFCI protected outside
outlets, if necessary to extend power outside from a non GFCI outlet
inside the house we used a GFCI duplex outlet that is of a type that
does not provided downstream protection to other outlets and mounted
it on end of a substantial extension.

Comments welcome. TIA


Simply put, you cannot have a GFCI breaker for a 3 wire cable where two
seperate branches share the same neutral. The GFCI breaker requires
independent wiring of the neutral for each branch circuit.

The only way you can do it is with a GFCI receptacle in the first fixture on
each branch after the neutral is split. You can do a split outlet, you just
need to use two seperate neutrals and break the tabs off both sides of the
receptacles not just the hot side.

I don't really follow your GFCI the 230V first to get both115V logic but I
think a 230V GFCI breaker would cost more than a 3 pack of 120V GFCI
Receptacles. Easiest thing to do is put one in each required location and
not worry about downstream wiring.



Simply put your wrong. 120/240 GFCI breakers are available and they
work just fine thank you.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On May 15, 4:31*pm, Chip C wrote:
On May 15, 2:23 am, terry wrote:

Ran a three wire #12 AWG (Black, Red, White plus ground) from 20 amp
DP breaker to a duplex NEMA 230 volt 15 amp outlet above a garage work
bench, (concrete floor), then extended 115 volts (Black, White and
ground) from it to two regular duplex 115 volt 15 amp outlets also
mounted above bench. Purpose of the 230 is that we have a couple of
230 volt tools. Purpose of the 115 v. outlets, regular tools and small
bench mounted grinder.

Around here, I think it's non-code to split a 115V circuit off a 230
one. No idea if that's true where you are. Your inspector will know.

At any rate, if you want to put a 20A breaker on this, all the wiring
all the way to the end must be 12ga or heavier. You might as well use
20A T-slots for those 115V outlets, but I believe you don't have to
(contrary to popular opinion).

Thinking best way to GFCI all those outlets would be to have a GFCI
breaker, BUT; with either of 115 duplex in use there will be unequal
currents in the two legs of the GFCI breaker. So it will trip????

Yup. Your only option, if you want to put GF protection on the whole
circuit, is a dual-pole GFCI breaker in the panel. Brace yourself,
these aren't cheap.

Is there such a thing as a standard North American 230 volt GFCI
outlet? [...]

Don't think so.

Or GFCI the first outlet following the 230 volt so it protects both of
the 115 volt ones? The 230 volt outlet then being non GFCI protected.

Yes, that would work, if you and your inspector decide the 230 V
outlet doesn't need GF protection.

[...]

Same thing could occur with what here is called a 'split outlet' (can
double the capacity and/or allow two heavier appliances, especially
kitchens, plugged into both halves of same outlet) whereby the tab
between upper and lower halves of a duplex 115 volt outlet is removed
and opposite 115 volt legs wired to each half.

Yes, exactly. Up here, split outlets are still common and legal for
kitchens; only outlets within 1 metre of the sink need to be GF
protected. Those *can* be protected by a dual-pole GFCI in the panel,
but they may also be 20A single-circuit GFCI outlets.

Chip C
Toronto

Thanks for all the comments. Futher to the original post.
Have just checked:
The Square D breaker feeding the circuit is DP 15 amp.
There are three outlets above garage work bench.
The wiring to the first outlet, the duplex 230 volt 15 amp one, is #14
AWG. (R,B,W & gnd.)
From that (single leg) B,W & gnd are extended to the other two duplex
115 volt outlets. Not sure if that is #12 or #14 but that's immaterial
anyway.
Will check provincial electrical regs. to see if GFCI is required for
the 230 volt outlet in view that it is a concrete garage floor.
If GFCI IS required; will either;
a) Do away with the 230 volt outlet and convert it to a 115 GFCI
(using one leg) to protect itself and two downstream outlets. i.e all
outlets on that run. And replace DP breaker with a SP 15 amp. I've got
spare one somewhere!.
b) Retain all outlets as is and fit a 15 amp GFCI DP breaker; sounds
like I'm looking at $40 to $50?????? But might as well; do it right!
If GFCI NOT required
c) Will refit the second 115 duplex outlet with a GFCI to protect
itself and the other outlet downstream of it.
Sound OK?
Thanks again.