Discussion recently someone claimed to have used a 40 US gallon
electric hot water tank to heat a small living space by piping its
output to a couple of radiators or hydro baseboards. It was AIUI a
converted single bedroom cabin?

Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

That sounds quite usable, recalling older less efficient hot air
circulating oil fired furnaces for 3 bedroom plus full basement houses
of 2000+ sq. feet in this rather cold climate which were often rated
at around 45,000 BTU? As long as the water would circulate somehow?

Thanks for any comments?

On Thu, 8 May 2008 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT), terry
wrote:

Discussion recently someone claimed to have used a 40 US gallon
electric hot water tank to heat a small living space by piping its
output to a couple of radiators or hydro baseboards. It was AIUI a
converted single bedroom cabin?

Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

That sounds quite usable, recalling older less efficient hot air
circulating oil fired furnaces for 3 bedroom plus full basement houses
of 2000+ sq. feet in this rather cold climate which were often rated
at around 45,000 BTU? As long as the water would circulate somehow?

Thanks for any comments?

Hi Terry,

Others will no doubt offer their own take, but I would recommend a
proper electric boiler and not a DHW tank; they're not that much more
expensive and they're built for the long haul. Note too that with the
exception of some high-capacity models, only the upper or lower
element is energized at any one time -- not both.

In any event, you might also consider electric hot water baseboard
units such as these:

http://www.cadetco.com/show_product.php?prodid=1010

No boiler, expansion tank, circulator pump(s), zone value(s), plumbing
lines and, most importantly, no worries about freeze-up in the event
of an extended power outage or if you close up camp for the winter.
Plus you can zone each room just as you do with regular electric
baseboard heaters. These units provide a nice, gentle heat and
they're *MUCH* safer than the standard variant. I highly recommend
them.

Cheers,
Paul

On May 8, 3:43*pm, terry wrote:
Discussion recently someone claimed to have used a 40 US gallon
electric hot water tank to heat a small living space by piping its
output to a couple of radiators or hydro baseboards. It was AIUI a
converted single bedroom cabin?

Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

That sounds quite usable, recalling older less efficient hot air
circulating oil fired furnaces for 3 bedroom plus full basement houses
of 2000+ sq. feet in this rather cold climate which were often rated
at around 45,000 BTU? As long as the water would circulate somehow?

Thanks for any comments?

Are you in an area where electricity is as cheap per btu as fuels are.
Few places in the US are. A water heater can work but wont last as
long as proper equipment.

"terry" wrote in message
...
Discussion recently someone claimed to have used a 40 US gallon
electric hot water tank to heat a small living space by piping its
output to a couple of radiators or hydro baseboards. It was AIUI a
converted single bedroom cabin?

Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

I "can" work, but is certainly not the best method. If you are using that
much electricity, why not just use electric baseboard and remove the need
for circulating water?

Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

most hot water tanks only heat one element at a time.

On May 9, 5:25*am, " wrote:
Presumably the hot water heater (tank) would have two 3000 watt
elements. So 6000 watts would provide approx. 18,000 BTU or so of hot
water per hour.

most hot water tanks only heat one element at a time.

Check current limitations / fuses of your power supply. Here in
Germany we get up to 16 Amps at 230 V out of the plug which gives a
maximum of 3680 Watt. However, you should also check the complete
wiring from fuse to tank sinc 16 A are quite a lot giving the
possibility that thin wires may burn your house. Also check if the
tank can run continuously or if it only stands short operatation
periods.

virtuPIC
--
Airspace V - international hangar flying!
http://www.airspace-v.com/ggadgets for tools & toys

On May 9, 11:01*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.
.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

On May 9, 9:05*am, terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01*am, "Stormin wrote:
Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). *And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) *hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
*water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

It will cost you more to change from baseboard in operating costs with
a reduction in reliability. You will pay to pump water and loose in
tank standby loss and plumbing loss, also the high temp you may need
to heat might be to much for the water heater, it will also shorten
its life. Your baseboards were designed for what they do, I dont see
any benefit to changing. You are lucky to have subsidised cheap hydro.
Put that extra money into insulation.

terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.
Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?

On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:
terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
�water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a SUPER INSULATED home needs no central heating at all.

google superinsulation.

you loose some room size but big long term payoff

On May 9, 2:10Â*pm, " wrote:
On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:





terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
�water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a SUPER INSULATED home needs no central heating at all.

google superinsulation.

you loose some room size but big long term payoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dreamin again I see, Where did you dream that up of not needing
central heat, SIPS are super insulated, mine is super insulated. Even
super insulated w/ passive solar needs additional heat, they just dont
need as much Btu. Every home needs so many air exchanges per day, or
you just get real sick. And what is your defination of super
insulation.

On May 9, 6:58Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On May 9, 2:10Â*pm, " wrote:





On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:

terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements..
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
�water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available..

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a SUPER INSULATED home needs no central heating at all.

google superinsulation.

you loose some room size but big long term payoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dreamin again I see, Where did you dream that up of not needing
central heat, SIPS are super insulated, mine is super insulated. Even
super insulated w/ passive solar needs additional heat, they just dont
need as much Btu. Every home needs so many air exchanges per day, or
you just get real sick. And what is your defination of super
insulation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok I googled superinsulation, and I qualify, R 40 walls, R 100
attic[ shrunk to R 75] but I in zone 5 to - 20f. You need heat just
like everyone else if you want to be comfortable, you need fresh air
to stay healthy. Sure you can use a wood stove instead, its been done
for thousands of years, but its not comfortable living. My load
calculation done by a pro was 50000 Btu for 1800 sq ft, it includes a
finished basement in that sq ft #. But heat still cost about 110$ a
month a few years ago in winter. With no heat on you would simply
freeze, people and apliances cant do it alone healthily, and a space
heater is not even heat. You wouldnt want to heat by cooking with a
gas stove in a tight house either, you will get sick. Show me a real
house, heated to 70f, with a family living happily, healthily in it
without a heating system at -20f, or even +40f, it cant be done, and
to have your health to.

On May 9, 8:36Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On May 9, 6:58Â*pm, ransley wrote:





On May 9, 2:10Â*pm, " wrote:

On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:

terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.

On May 9, 9:09Â*pm, " wrote:
On May 9, 8:36Â*pm, ransley wrote:





On May 9, 6:58Â*pm, ransley wrote:

On May 9, 2:10Â*pm, " wrote:

On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:

terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output.. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
�water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a SUPER INSULATED home needs no central heating at all.

google superinsulation.

you loose some room size but big long term payoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dreamin again I see, Where did you dream that up of not needing
central heat, SIPS are super insulated, mine is super insulated. Even
super insulated w/ passive solar needs additional heat, they just dont
need as much Btu. Every home needs so many air exchanges per day, or
you just get real sick. And what is your defination of super
insulation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok I googled superinsulation, and I qualify, R 40 walls, R 100
attic[ shrunk to R 75] but I in zone 5 to - 20f. Â*You need heat just
like everyone else if you want to be comfortable, you need fresh air
to stay healthy. Sure you can use a wood stove instead, its been done
for thousands of years, but its not comfortable living. My load
calculation done by a pro was 50000 Btu for 1800 sq ft, it includes a
finished basement in that sq ft #. But heat still cost about 110$ a
month a few years ago in winter. With no heat on you would simply
freeze, people and apliances cant do it alone healthily, and a space
heater is not even heat. You wouldnt want to heat by cooking with a
gas stove in a tight house either, you will get sick. Show me a real
house, heated to 70f, with a family living happily, healthily in it
without a heating system at -20f, or even +40f, it cant be done, and
to have your health to.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The passivhaus standard combines superinsulation with other techniques
and technologies to achieve ultra-low energy use.Superinsulation is an
approach to building design, construction, and retrofitting. A
superinsulated house is intended to be heated predominantly by
intrinsic heat sources (waste heat generated by appliances and the
body heat of the occupants), without using passive solar building
design techniques or large amounts of thermal mass, and with very
small amounts of backup heat. This has been demonstrated to work in
very cold climates but requires close attention to construction
details in addition to the insulation.

Some may consider that superinsulation is an alternative to passive
solar design (although many building designs include features of both
with special attention to preventing summer overheating).
Superinsulation is one of the ancestors of the passive house approach.
A related approach to efficient building design is zero energy
building.

There is no set definition of superinsulation, but superinsulated
buildings typically include:

Very thick insulation (typically R40 walls and R60 roof)
Detailed insulation where walls meet roofs, foundations, and other
walls
Airtight construction, especially around doors and windows
a heat recovery ventilator to provide fresh air
No large windows facing any particular direction (unlike passive
solar, which uses large windows facing the sun and fewer/smaller
windows facing other directions).
No large amounts of thermal mass
No active or passive solar heat (but may have solar water heating and/
or hot water heat recycling)
No conventional heating system, just a small backup heater
Nisson & Dutt (1985) suggest that a house might be described as
"superinsulated" if the cost of space heating is lower than the cost
of water heating.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Retrofits
3 Costs and benefits
4 See also
5 References
6 External links- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read that, Ive done it, but I could not heat it that way nor would
the air quality be safe, I tried to find houses they stated as studys,
I cant see a house being heated with apliances and people safely, a
heating system is needed for comfort even with passive solar, the sun
does not always shine in many areas of the country in winter.

On May 9, 10:42Â*pm, ransley wrote:
On May 9, 9:09Â*pm, " wrote:





On May 9, 8:36Â*pm, ransley wrote:

On May 9, 6:58Â*pm, ransley wrote:

On May 9, 2:10Â*pm, " wrote:

On May 9, 10:43�am, Tony Hwang wrote:

terry wrote:
On May 9, 11:01 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And electric
water heaters use filaments.

For twenty bucks, this person could buy a ceramic heater from Walmart or
Home Depot, and plug it in to the wall. Get much the same output. The
ceramic heaters are supposed to be safe, and more heat for the buck.

Sounds like too much equipment, for not much benefit.

.
Thanks for all the comments.

I think part of the discussion was because electric hot water tanks
are still a pretty cheap item. (around $200). �And for a 'summer
cabin' if it has electrical service at all the 30 or so amps for
heating when the cabin is in use is not a major factor for what will
be at least a 100 amp/115-230 volt service.

Interesting to see some differences between European and North
American practice.

In North America one perceives many (most) �hot water heater tanks are
the 'always on', as opposed to 'instant' and have two elements, upper
and lower each with a thermostat. The upper thermostats usually
arranged as a 'flip-flop' .

The top element heats first and then flips over to the lower heater
element. In other words (normally as shipped from factory) only one
3000 watt heater is on a a time.

BTW in this part of Canada most heaters are 40 US gallon (about 33
Imperial gallons) and have two 3000 watt, 230 volt, heating elements.
However, daughters house has a 60 gallon version with i think, two
4500 watt elements, also arranged flip-flop.

It is possible very easily by moving one wire to alter so that both
heater elements can come on at same time, each under control of its
thermostat. That of course doubles the current flow (in our case for
6000 watts or about 26 amps).

Ours is wired with #10 AWG, good for 30 amps and a suitable breaker.
Have only resorted to that arrangement once when we had a number of
additional people staying with us.

As mentioned this is only discussion of an idea and as pointed out the
additional complexity probably not worth while.

This (all electric) 38 year old house; about 1500 sq foot single
storey main floor, 4 bedroom etc. is heated by electric baseboard
convection heaters; with an occasional use wood stove in the mainly
unheated full in ground concrete basement workshop below.

Averaged monthly total energy cost is $210 (which includes all taxes
etc.). Or about $2500/yr. And it's a pretty cold and windy climate
(Today May 9th for example it is +2 deg Celsius!).

Not sure why the statement;
" Electric filament heaters are usually very expensive to run. And
electric
�water heaters use filaments.... "

That electric filament heaters are 'more expensive' to run? Not
understood.
Electricity is electricity no matter how one turns it into heat! Or
light, or cooking or TV viewing etc. For heating it's matter of cost
whether it is more or less expensive that other fuels!

With current world prices of oil, here people are converting their
homes from oil to electricity, no matter what type of existing heating
they have, warm air, water etc. there are conversion units available.

Here much electrcity for about one half million people is generated
by water (hydro) power; although oil is used in one thermal plant for
peak winter backup and during emergencies such as ice storms.

Once again thanks for the ideas.

Hmmm,
Depending on your location, how about going solar?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a SUPER INSULATED home needs no central heating at all.

google superinsulation.

you loose some room size but big long term payoff- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dreamin again I see, Where did you dream that up of not needing
central heat, SIPS are super insulated, mine is super insulated. Even
super insulated w/ passive solar needs additional heat, they just dont
need as much Btu. Every home needs so many air exchanges per day, or
you just get real sick. And what is your defination of super
insulation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok I googled superinsulation, and I qualify, R 40 walls, R 100
attic[ shrunk to R 75] but I in zone 5 to - 20f. Â*You need heat just
like everyone else if you want to be comfortable, you need fresh air
to stay healthy. Sure you can use a wood stove instead, its been done
for thousands of years, but its not comfortable living. My load
calculation done by a pro was 50000 Btu for 1800 sq ft, it includes a
finished basement in that sq ft #. But heat still cost about 110$ a
month a few years ago in winter. With no heat on you would simply
freeze, people and apliances cant do it alone healthily, and a space
heater is not even heat. You wouldnt want to heat by cooking with a
gas stove in a tight house either, you will get sick. Show me a real
house, heated to 70f, with a family living happily, healthily in it
without a heating system at -20f, or even +40f, it cant be done, and
to have your health to.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The passivhaus standard combines superinsulation with other techniques
and technologies to achieve ultra-low energy use.Superinsulation is an
approach to building design, construction, and retrofitting. A
superinsulated house is intended to be heated predominantly by
intrinsic heat sources (waste heat generated by appliances and the
body heat of the occupants), without using passive solar building
design techniques or large amounts of thermal mass, and with very
small amounts of backup heat. This has been demonstrated to work in
very cold climates but requires close attention to construction
details in addition to the insulation.

Some may consider that superinsulation is an alternative to passive
solar design (although many building designs include features of both
with special attention to preventing summer overheating).
Superinsulation is one of the ancestors of the passive house approach.
A related approach to efficient building design is zero energy
building.

There is no set definition of superinsulation, but superinsulated
buildings typically include:

Very thick insulation (typically R40 walls and R60 roof)
Detailed insulation where walls meet roofs, foundations, and other
walls
Airtight construction, especially around doors and windows
a heat recovery ventilator to provide fresh air
No large windows facing any particular direction (unlike passive
solar, which uses large windows facing the sun and fewer/smaller
windows facing other directions).
No large amounts of thermal mass
No active or passive solar heat (but may have solar water heating and/
or hot water heat recycling)
No conventional heating system, just a small backup heater
Nisson & Dutt (1985) suggest that a house might be described as
"superinsulated" if the cost of space heating is lower than the cost
of water heating.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Retrofits
3 Costs and benefits
4 See also
5 References
6 External links- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read that, Ive done it, but I could not heat it that way nor would
the air quality be safe, I tried to find houses they stated as studys,
I cant see a house being heated with apliances and people safely, a
heating system is needed for comfort even with passive solar, the sun
does not always shine in many areas of the country in winter.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

it would be near impossible to retrofit super insulation into a
existing building, and have it be effective.

details like staggered stud exterior walls matter. so does sealing
voids during construction.

however everyone can profit from better insulation.

some homes use heat recovery around drain lines to help warm incoming
water.

poured concrete homes, that use rebar reinforced concrete with built
in foam insulation, and look like regular homes and the exteriors
are sprayed with paint containing a realtive of space shuttle tiles
add to this. plus these homes are designed to survive a 300 MPH storm.
no more wiped out communities

zero energy homes have been built but can cost so much they arent
practical.

incidentally a human generates about as much heat as a 100 watt
incandescent light bulb. most of us have probably noticed crowded
rooms get hot, thats why.

how about building a home in a resort area, and invite the entire home
repair group? we can each do our share to warm it you can pay the
food bill please