I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the first
freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of these leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be able to
live with them. What is the best way to fix the leaks? I'm talking about 1/2"
copper lines and fittings.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

wrote:
The best and surest fix is the one you are dreading. The leaking
joints need to be separated, carefully cleaned, fluxed, and
resoldered.


Damn. I was really, really, really hoping you wouldn't say that. Thanks for
answering so quickly.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Damn. *I was really, really, really hoping you wouldn't say that. *Thanks for
answering so quickly.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

I just finished installing a hot water recirculation loop, and making
other changes to my copper plumbing, so I know all about the spiders
and other creatures of which you speak. I don't envy you, but it's
worth getting this right.

You can try reheating and applying more solder. This works 1 time in
5, but it's worth a try. Otherwise, you have to take it apart and do
it over.

One thing I have found is that if a solder joint doesn't leak when
new, it probably never will. But if it drips, even a little bit, the
leak will worsen with time, sometimes quite rapidly.

Regards,
John.

On May 1, 10:11*am, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
wrote:
I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the first
freeze of the season. *The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. *So what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. *None of these leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be able to
live with them. *What is the best way to fix the leaks? *I'm talking about 1/2"
copper lines and fittings.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Use Map gas and try to add flux and resolder first, I had an idiot use
propane on big pipe and all I had was leaks, a pro came in with Mapp,
flux, and solder and no more leaks on a commercial water heater with
1.5" pipe 10 years ago, maybe it just never got hot enough the first
time to flow the metal.

wrote:
On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:11:45 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:


I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the first
freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of these leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be able to
live with them. What is the best way to fix the leaks? I'm talking about 1/2"
copper lines and fittings.


The best and surest fix is the one you are dreading. The leaking
joints need to be separated, carefully cleaned, fluxed, and
resoldered.




Gee, y'mean that Mighty Putty as hawked on TV by Billy Mays won't take
care of those leaks? G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mays

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:11:45 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes
under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the
wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the
first
freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine
but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet
leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So
what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more
work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of these
leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be
able to
live with them. What is the best way to fix the leaks? I'm talking about
1/2"
copper lines and fittings.

The best and surest fix is the one you are dreading. The leaking
joints need to be separated, carefully cleaned, fluxed, and
resoldered.


He's right. I had a dribbler but in an easy to access location. I tried
reheating, fluxing from the outside and using way more solder than necessary
and it still took 5-6 tries to close the hole. In hindsight, it would have
been easier to cut the tee out and put a new one in complete with three
straight unions to make up for the shortened pipes. The finished joint
looks like crap too but I can't clean it up or it might leak again. Who
cares, it passed inspection.

pipedown wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:11:45 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes
under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the
wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the
first
freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine
but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet
leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So
what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more
work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of these
leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be
able to
live with them. What is the best way to fix the leaks? I'm talking about
1/2"
copper lines and fittings.

The best and surest fix is the one you are dreading. The leaking
joints need to be separated, carefully cleaned, fluxed, and
resoldered.


He's right. I had a dribbler but in an easy to access location. I tried
reheating, fluxing from the outside and using way more solder than necessary
and it still took 5-6 tries to close the hole. In hindsight, it would have
been easier to cut the tee out and put a new one in complete with three
straight unions to make up for the shortened pipes. The finished joint
looks like crap too but I can't clean it up or it might leak again. Who
cares, it passed inspection.

It is indeed far less work to take two minutes to clean and flux all the
joints before soldering and then be sure you use enough solder, that it
is to rework even one bad joint.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes under my
house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the wrong
sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the first
freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be fine but I
found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak
at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So what do I
do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more work
than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of these leaks
are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I will not be able to
live with them. What is the best way to fix the leaks? I'm talking about 1/2"
copper lines and fittings.



Hi,
Quickest way is redo them after cutting the joint. Sorry to say it but
poor workmanship! Clean, flux, heat properly and flow the solder. If
water drops are present near the joint stuff a piece of bread to soak it
up. When your water starts to flow break will dissolve and come out of
faucet/taps.

Blow the lines clear of water, and re-sweat the joints with lots of paste.

s


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
news
I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes under
my house replacing some valves that the last plumber had installed in the
wrong sequence so that it was impossible to blow the lines clear before the
first freeze of the season. The new valves are now in place and seem to be
fine but I found that some very awkward places as I worked towards the
outside faucet leak at the unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen
that I did. So what do I do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any more
work than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem. None of
these leaks are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but I know I
will not be able to live with them. What is the best way to fix the
leaks? I'm talking about 1/2" copper lines and fittings.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Jeff Wisnia wrote in
news:OMidnfwbG8RAgIfVnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@choiceonecom munications:

wrote:
On Thu, 1 May 2008 11:11:45 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:


I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes
under my house replacing some valves that the last plumber had
installed in the wrong sequence so that it was impossible to blow the
lines clear before the first freeze of the season. The new valves
are now in place and seem to be fine but I found that some very
awkward places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak at the
unions.... maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So what
do I do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any
more work than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem.
None of these leaks are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but
I know I will not be able to live with them. What is the best way to
fix the leaks? I'm talking about 1/2" copper lines and fittings.


The best and surest fix is the one you are dreading. The leaking
joints need to be separated, carefully cleaned, fluxed, and
resoldered.




Gee, y'mean that Mighty Putty as hawked on TV by Billy Mays won't take
care of those leaks? G

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mays

Jeff


"Mays currently resides in Keystone, Florida, northwest of Tampa in a 1.8
million dollar home purchased in 2005.[citation needed] Mr. Mays is often
seen in the area driving his Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren or Ferrari.
[citation needed]"

Amazing isn't it Jeff. Those 19.95+s&h sure add up.

That's OK. He's got a skill and knows how to use it. The thing that
****es me off is that fat-ass Sears Whore Vila is probably sittin' up
there too. Rude *******.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
news
I spent a good while yesterday after noon with the spiders and snakes
under my house replacing some valves that the last plumber had
installed in the wrong sequence so that it was impossible to blow the
lines clear before the first freeze of the season. The new valves are
now in place and seem to be fine but I found that some very awkward
places as I worked towards the outside faucet leak at the unions....
maybe three out of more than a dozen that I did. So what do I do now?

I can easily blow the lines clear now but I'm reluctant to negate any
more work than I absolutely have to in order to correct the problem.
None of these leaks are gully washers... just drip, drip, drip... but
I know I will not be able to live with them. What is the best way to
fix the leaks? I'm talking about 1/2" copper lines and fittings.




As already said, redo it. There are several thing that make a good job. One
is to make sure the joints are REALLY cleaned. Shiny copper clean.

Get yourself some inside & outside tubing cleaners. Good for lots of other
stuff too but don't get them cruddy then use to clean tubing.

http://search.hardwarestore.com/?que...brush&tId=2210

Tony Hwang wrote:
Quickest way is redo them after cutting the joint. Sorry to say it but
poor workmanship! Clean, flux, heat properly and flow the solder. If
water drops are present near the joint stuff a piece of bread to soak it
up. When your water starts to flow break will dissolve and come out of
faucet/taps.


I know it was poor workmanship. I'm a rookie when it comes to soldering joints
and these were in the crawl space under the house. Not enough headroom to kneel
and my arms weren't quite long enough to lay supine and still reach comfortably.
I consider myself fortunate I didn't catch anything on fire.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Quickest way is redo them after cutting the joint. Sorry to say it but
poor workmanship! Clean, flux, heat properly and flow the solder. If
water drops are present near the joint stuff a piece of bread to soak it
up. When your water starts to flow break will dissolve and come out of
faucet/taps.



I know it was poor workmanship. I'm a rookie when it comes to soldering joints
and these were in the crawl space under the house. Not enough headroom to kneel
and my arms weren't quite long enough to lay supine and still reach comfortably.
I consider myself fortunate I didn't catch anything on fire.



Hi,
Piece of shhet metal can be used for flame shield while soldering.
I know I've been there and done that. LOL. Doing it first time right is
easier said than done. Nowadays most is done with PEX and crimping ring.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

Tony Hwang wrote:
Quickest way is redo them after cutting the joint. Sorry to say it
but poor workmanship! Clean, flux, heat properly and flow the solder.
If water drops are present near the joint stuff a piece of bread to
soak it up. When your water starts to flow break will dissolve and
come out of faucet/taps.


I know it was poor workmanship. I'm a rookie when it comes to
soldering joints and these were in the crawl space under the house.
Not enough headroom to kneel and my arms weren't quite long enough to
lay supine and still reach comfortably. I consider myself fortunate I
didn't catch anything on fire.




I know it was poor workmanship.

Absolutely Mortimer! The rest of us in here were born with a fear of fire
and the ability to sweat fittings. :-)

In article ,
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

I consider myself fortunate I didn't catch anything on fire.

And in that regard, brave sir, your project was not a complete failure.
It was partially successful. Unfortunately, you have more work to do.

You are also to be commended for your self-honesty.

Good luck with your project.
--

JR

In article ,
Red Green wrote:

The rest of us in here were born with a fear of fire

Oh, yeah? I LOVE fire. I had pyromaniacal tendencies as a child but
was able to keep a lid on them. Fortunately, I never got into arson.

The ban on outdoor burning in the city, the waning of youth and a couple
of potentially BAD gasoline accidents over the years, including one
fire, put it all behind me.

and the ability to sweat fittings. :-)

Uh, OK. Like Mortimer here, I promise to bare my soul and tell you when
I have sweat my FIRST fitting.

I was the only 16-year-old I knew that had his own mechanic. No joke.
He and I met in grade school.

I am now blessed with the genuine, life-long friendship of a gentleman
that, among MANY, other things, is a good plumber. The other night, he
and I (mostly he) replaced my sister's water heater. Thanks, JP.
--

JR

In article ,
wrote:

I have one of those trigger spray bottles from the Home Depot that
I use to wet down wood behind where I'm soldering. I also have a
thin sheet of aluminum that I sometimes use as a shield if the
joint is really close to the wood.

That reveals the care, and probably good technique, of a craftsman.

If you take the time to do this while working under professional
conditions (on the clock), more the better with "hats off" to whomever
is paying you for allowing you the time to care.

I suspect that many plumbers already have leather gloves with them and,
after sweating the joint, simply STUB OUT any little fire they MAY have
started. Most such locations are usually little more than a little,
black soot on the wooden member.

As the utility worker denizen of many a crawl space, I cannot tell you
the number of "torched", wooden members I have seen adjoining a plumbing
joint. I do NOT, however, recall anything particularly bad. It's more
unsightly than anything else, really - as long as they extinguish
whatever they may have inadvertently ignited.

I assume the code requires protection of adjoining members when
soldering a plumbing joint.
--

JR

Red Green wrote:
As already said, redo it. There are several thing that make a good job. One
is to make sure the joints are REALLY cleaned. Shiny copper clean.

Get yourself some inside & outside tubing cleaners. Good for lots of other
stuff too but don't get them cruddy then use to clean tubing.


I am happy to report the job is finished and no more leaks. I wandered down to
Lowes and bought a few things: specifically a heat shield and a MAP torch. I
cut a new section, cleaned up the ends bright and shiny, fluxed the unions and
the ends of the tubing and had at it.

The map torch was a big improvement over the propane torch I had been using.
One of the things I liked was the momentary switch on it... I pressed the
trigger, the gas came on and then it ignited. ZIt stayed ignited until i let go
of the trigger, allowing me to free up my hands very quickly. I also dug out
the knee pads which made it much more comfortable.

So, bottom line: next fall when the temperatures start dropping, I can turn off
the water under the house, access a port on the valve and then blow out the line
from the valveto under the back deck to the outside faucet on the edge of the
deck... leaving no water in the line to freeze and split. Life is good.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

Red Green wrote:
As already said, redo it. There are several thing that make a good
job. One is to make sure the joints are REALLY cleaned. Shiny copper
clean.

Get yourself some inside & outside tubing cleaners. Good for lots of
other stuff too but don't get them cruddy then use to clean tubing.


I am happy to report the job is finished and no more leaks. I
wandered down to Lowes and bought a few things: specifically a heat
shield and a MAP torch. I cut a new section, cleaned up the ends
bright and shiny, fluxed the unions and the ends of the tubing and had
at it.

The map torch was a big improvement over the propane torch I had been
using. One of the things I liked was the momentary switch on it... I
pressed the trigger, the gas came on and then it ignited. ZIt stayed
ignited until i let go of the trigger, allowing me to free up my hands
very quickly. I also dug out the knee pads which made it much more
comfortable.

So, bottom line: next fall when the temperatures start dropping, I
can turn off the water under the house, access a port on the valve and
then blow out the line from the valveto under the back deck to the
outside faucet on the edge of the deck... leaving no water in the line
to freeze and split. Life is good.




Attaboy!

That's one thing I don't have is a mapp torch. From what I hear, once
you've tried it you never go back ;-) Maybe it's my propane torch head
but I hate that when I tilt the torch various ways the flame changes.

Is that a torch head issue anyone? If so, does the same thing happen with
mapp?

Red Green wrote:
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:


Red Green wrote:

As already said, redo it. There are several thing that make a good
job. One is to make sure the joints are REALLY cleaned. Shiny copper
clean.

Get yourself some inside & outside tubing cleaners. Good for lots of
other stuff too but don't get them cruddy then use to clean tubing.


I am happy to report the job is finished and no more leaks. I
wandered down to Lowes and bought a few things: specifically a heat
shield and a MAP torch. I cut a new section, cleaned up the ends
bright and shiny, fluxed the unions and the ends of the tubing and had
at it.

The map torch was a big improvement over the propane torch I had been
using. One of the things I liked was the momentary switch on it... I
pressed the trigger, the gas came on and then it ignited. ZIt stayed
ignited until i let go of the trigger, allowing me to free up my hands
very quickly. I also dug out the knee pads which made it much more
comfortable.

So, bottom line: next fall when the temperatures start dropping, I
can turn off the water under the house, access a port on the valve and
then blow out the line from the valveto under the back deck to the
outside faucet on the edge of the deck... leaving no water in the line
to freeze and split. Life is good.





Attaboy!

That's one thing I don't have is a mapp torch. From what I hear, once
you've tried it you never go back ;-) Maybe it's my propane torch head
but I hate that when I tilt the torch various ways the flame changes.

Is that a torch head issue anyone? If so, does the same thing happen with
mapp?

With any torch if it is tilted such that liquid rather that gaseous
phase fuel enters the torch the flame will be impacted.

About 15 years ago I gave up and visited my trusty pawn shop. I came
out with an acetylne B-bottle and a turbo torch on a 50 foot hose. I'll
never go back to the tank with a torch on top.

Boden

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
Red Green wrote:
As already said, redo it. There are several thing that make a good job.
One
is to make sure the joints are REALLY cleaned. Shiny copper clean.

Get yourself some inside & outside tubing cleaners. Good for lots of
other
stuff too but don't get them cruddy then use to clean tubing.


I am happy to report the job is finished and no more leaks. I wandered
down to Lowes and bought a few things: specifically a heat shield and a
MAP torch. I cut a new section, cleaned up the ends bright and shiny,
fluxed the unions and the ends of the tubing and had at it.

The map torch was a big improvement over the propane torch I had been
using. One of the things I liked was the momentary switch on it... I
pressed the trigger, the gas came on and then it ignited. ZIt stayed
ignited until i let go of the trigger, allowing me to free up my hands
very quickly. I also dug out the knee pads which made it much more
comfortable.

So, bottom line: next fall when the temperatures start dropping, I can
turn off the water under the house, access a port on the valve and then
blow out the line from the valveto under the back deck to the outside
faucet on the edge of the deck... leaving no water in the line to freeze
and split. Life is good.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Doesn't it make you feel better to do the job right and then have it all
work out. Long term satisfaction.
MLD

MLD wrote:
Doesn't it make you feel better to do the job right and then have it all
work out. Long term satisfaction.


Sure it does but the costs... I must have $200 tied up in this job.... $10 in
parts and the rest in some very nice tools. I admit to being a tool nut and
will use any rationalization to justify the purchase of nice tools. And I'm set
for the next time!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

MLD wrote:
Doesn't it make you feel better to do the job right and then have it
all work out. Long term satisfaction.


Sure it does but the costs... I must have $200 tied up in this job....

Reading this I'm like man the borg must be 30 miles away and he's got an
old 350 with a 4 barrel getting 8mi/gal.

$10 in parts and the rest in some very nice tools.

Then LOL.

I admit to being a
tool nut and will use any rationalization to justify the purchase of
nice tools. And I'm set for the next time!

In article ,
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

I admit to being a tool nut and will use any rationalization to
justify the purchase of nice tools. And I'm set for the next time!

Amen! Once that new tool has been used, it has paid for itself!
--

JR

In article ,
Red Green wrote:

Reading this I'm like man the borg must be 30 miles away and he's got an
old 350 with a 4 barrel getting 8mi/gal.

That much, eh?

$10 in parts and the rest in some very nice tools.

Then LOL.

No sh*t. Been there, done that.
--

JR