On Thu, 1 May 2008, FDR wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
FDR wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
FDR wrote:

I'm thinking that the cost of electricity to run the transmitters is
going to roughly double the cost, as well as maintenance on two sets of
equipment.
So? The marginal cost of electricity for the extra transmitter
(remember they still have to run one no matter) is going to be very
small.
Oh really? Megawatts used daily is small?
When compared to the entire cost of running a station, yeah. Running
both sides of transmitter does not even remotely double the costs of
running the entire station. Especially when you are talking only the
marginal costs (those specific to the second transmitter).

I never said it would double the cost of running a station, but it's not an
insignificant cost.

(5 MegaW / 1kW)*24hrs*30days=3.6 million kWh per month. My cost is 16 cents
a kWh (includes delivery and cost) Let's say they get a cut rate of 10 cents
a kWh. That's $360,000 a month. $4.32 million a year. That's no
insignificant cost to a station.


And there are apparently lots of stations that are unable to make much
money.

There's a station in Vermont that was a PAX station when that was alive,
and movies would be routinely scheduled but when I tuned in, there'd be
infommericals instead. Or, there'd be an ID card airing for ages. It
went off the air months ago, some problem at the antenna, and it's still
not back. Speculation is they won't return.

There is something silly about a tv station that ends up airing more
infommercials than actual programming, since then you have to wonder why
they have a license. Obviously, it's cheaper for them to air
infommercials, even if they don't have much of a viewership, than actual
programs that might bring viewers to the ads.

Michael

In article ,
says...
Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
FDR wrote:


I'm thinking that the cost of electricity to run the transmitters is
going to roughly double the cost, as well as maintenance on two sets of
equipment.

So? The marginal cost of electricity for the extra transmitter
(remember they still have to run one no matter) is going to be very
small.

Oh really? Megawatts used daily is small?

Um, "Megawatts" aren't used daily.

Transmitter electricity is a small part of their budget compared
to things like salaries, buildings, all those satellite trucks,
printing, etc., etc., etc.
Similarly with the maintenance of the other system. Remember, pretty
much everything but the transmitter (and probably the antennae) can run
both with no problems currently. The marginal cost, which would be the
constraint, would be small overall.
Now, whether or not it is worth it, is another story altogether.



--
Keith

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
Alric Knebel wrote:


You could have kept control over them like, oh say, the current
model of that very same part of spectrum. You could have allocated them
for free to public safety or some other worthy group. Any number of
other possibilities if they had wanted to go that way.
If you look at the history, the auction was largely a justification
for taking the spectrum away from TV and not staying with a dual system
for a few more years.
What do you mean, a dual system? I'm not up on the term you're using,
and since it's so specific, it must be critical to understanding your
point.

In the current system (during the transition) we have the old
system and the new both being used. At the timeCongress was considering
the changeover, we could have just as easily kept both going if there
was a desire on the part of Congress.
TV stations have no desire to transmit two of everything. It's a waste
of power and money.
How about letting them decide that? The point is still valid.
Let's see. I can really see a company wanting to spend double. Why
hire one truck when you can spend on two. Yup, makes sense. You
should be a CEO.
It's eminently clear that *you* haven't the first clue. Hint:
businesses don't like losing customers. Choice is good, though you
leftists/statists hate the concept.

And what is the current model for controlling that part of the spectrum?
I thought that part of the spectrum was sold off?
The original part I was replying to was the alternatives available
when the Congress was making the law on how to handle that spectrum way
back in the day. Thus, they could have, if they wanted to at that time,
mandated that the spectrum remain in the control of the government
The spectrum is leased. The spectrum is quite large, so I'm not sure
what else the gov't would do with it.
Read the answer.

Public safety? Well that's a 24 hour a day spectrum hog. Yeah, let's
do that. What's the programming going to be to fill that across 100+
stations? Wait, won't that cost the taxpayer?
I know it must be hard, but do try to follow along.

Following nonsense that isn't going to happen?

You're as big of an idiot as you nym would imply.


nym?

Yes, nym.

--
Keith

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:18:58 -0400, Kurt Ullman wrote:
So? The marginal cost of electricity for the extra transmitter
(remember they still have to run one no matter) is going to be very
small.

You've obviously never seen the electric bill for a million-watt
transmitter.

In article ,
says...
krw wrote:
In article ,
says...
Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
FDR wrote:

I'm thinking that the cost of electricity to run the transmitters is
going to roughly double the cost, as well as maintenance on two sets of
equipment.
So? The marginal cost of electricity for the extra transmitter
(remember they still have to run one no matter) is going to be very
small.
Oh really? Megawatts used daily is small?

Um, "Megawatts" aren't used daily.

If you say so.

I know so. You're clearly clueless.

snip

--
Keith

On Apr 30, 6:44*pm, Tom Horne wrote:

This is the internet. *If you start talking sense here the black
helicopters will surely come and; um, what is it the UN black
helicopters are supposed to be doing again?

According to Revelations, they're supposed to take you away if you
don't wear the mark of the Antichrist 3

Jim wrote:
Yeah, if you're one of the 15% who still have an antenna and analog
TV, it works great. But God forbid you should have a VCR or DVD
recorder that was made prior to 3/07. Won't work.

Plainly wrong in my experience. The rabbit ears plug into the converter
box, the converter box plugs into the ancient VCR (using the L1 inputs
in my case) and the VCR plugs into the television set like always. The
newly recorded tapes are clearer than ever before.
Paul MR

In article ,
Paul MR wrote:

Jim wrote:
Yeah, if you're one of the 15% who still have an antenna and analog
TV, it works great. But God forbid you should have a VCR or DVD
recorder that was made prior to 3/07. Won't work.

Plainly wrong in my experience. The rabbit ears plug into the converter
box, the converter box plugs into the ancient VCR (using the L1 inputs
in my case) and the VCR plugs into the television set like always. The
newly recorded tapes are clearer than ever before.
Paul MR

So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

-john-

--
================================================== ====================
John A. Weeks III * * * * * 612-720-2854 * * * * *
Newave Communications * * * * * * * * * * * * http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ====================

On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:56:05 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote:

In article ,
Paul MR wrote:

Jim wrote:
Yeah, if you're one of the 15% who still have an antenna and analog
TV, it works great. But God forbid you should have a VCR or DVD
recorder that was made prior to 3/07. Won't work.

Plainly wrong in my experience. The rabbit ears plug into the converter
box, the converter box plugs into the ancient VCR (using the L1 inputs
in my case) and the VCR plugs into the television set like always. The
newly recorded tapes are clearer than ever before.
Paul MR

So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

-john-

That's right.

There's allegedly a model coming out in June that will allow switching
but it's not on the gubamint's rebate list.

In article , Windswept@Home (J)
wrote:


That's right.

There's allegedly a model coming out in June that will allow switching
but it's not on the gubamint's rebate list.

They are already out if you go with some of the DTV-equipt DVR and
VCRs. Again these aren't on the government list. Nor should they be.

John A. Weeks III wrote:
So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

-john-

That IS an issue, but it is an issue any time you need a decoder box (say
for scrambled cable and/or sat signals). It is not unique to the digital
converters being discussed.

In Scott in SoCal
wrote:

On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:56:05 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote:

So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

People with cable boxes have had that problem for decades. Guess what?
There is a solution in the form of a little IR emitter that the VCR
can use to change channels on the converter box.

Of course, for anyone currently owning a VCR without such a dongle,
there's not much chance they'll ever find one on the market.

Then, what's the chance that the VCR will have the appropriate remote
code for these converter boxes?

The Echostar TR-40 converter, if it really comes to market, is supposed
to have its own program timer which also solves the problem.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN

On 11 May 2008 15:22:50 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote:


Of course, for anyone currently owning a VCR without such a dongle,
there's not much chance they'll ever find one on the market.

Shux, I googled dongle and couldn't even find it on the Internet, much
less the marketplace.

On 11 May 2008 15:22:50 GMT, Bert Hyman wrote:

In Scott in SoCal
wrote:

On Sun, 11 May 2008 07:56:05 -0500, "John A. Weeks III"
wrote:

So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

People with cable boxes have had that problem for decades. Guess what?
There is a solution in the form of a little IR emitter that the VCR
can use to change channels on the converter box.

Of course, for anyone currently owning a VCR without such a dongle,
there's not much chance they'll ever find one on the market.


There's almost no chance of getting one to work. Consider that the
digital channel numbers have '.' in them. An older device (like a VCR)
would not know this code. Maybe they'll sell converters for those (IR
codes) too.

Then, what's the chance that the VCR will have the appropriate remote
code for these converter boxes?


The Echostar TR-40 converter, if it really comes to market, is supposed
to have its own program timer which also solves the problem.

That reminds my of my first cable box that was like that. You now have
to set TWO timers to record something.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Sun, 11 May 2008 15:33:07 -0700, Scott in SoCal
wrote:

On Sun, 11 May 2008 11:24:39 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

There's almost no chance of getting one to work. Consider that the
digital channel numbers have '.' in them. An older device (like a VCR)
would not know this code.

It's easy enough to alias the channel numbers with old-fashioned
integers. Windows Media Center does precisely this, assigning the OTA
digital channels integer numbers in the 1000 range (e.g. KCAL-DT
appears as channel 1091 on my Media Center PC).

That makes sense. An old VCR won't be doing that either.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 07:43:17PM -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:
"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

I think they call it a legacy application. No doubt the Holy See is still
supporting God because their accounting system or whatever runs on it.


Regards,

Steve

--
Rule number one when dealing with terrorists, be they wild-eyed fanatics,
uniformed thugs, or rabid academic ideologues, is to repudiate their
demands without equivocation. Those who cannot put forward their ideas and
political agenda in a civilized context desserve no consideration or
compassion from civilized people.

John A. Weeks III wrote:
In article ,
Paul MR wrote:

Jim wrote:
Yeah, if you're one of the 15% who still have an antenna and analog
TV, it works great. But God forbid you should have a VCR or DVD
recorder that was made prior to 3/07. Won't work.
Plainly wrong in my experience. The rabbit ears plug into the converter
box, the converter box plugs into the ancient VCR (using the L1 inputs
in my case) and the VCR plugs into the television set like always. The
newly recorded tapes are clearer than ever before.
Paul MR

So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

-john-

You are right. But that is not the issue/problem raised in the OP to
which I was responding.
Paul MR

In article ,
John A. Weeks III wrote:
So, how do I set the VCR to record channel 4 from 7PM to 8PM, then
switch to channel 11 from 10:30 to Midnight? As far as I know, the
converter will not automatically change channels to match the
program in the VCR. That renders the VCR useless for time-shifting.

Not useless but greatly impaired. For anything beyond very basic
recording, the VCR needs to control the converter box. People
who record premium channels off their cable/satellite box have been
doing it for years so there are some options:
- if your VCR can drive an IR blaster it might be able to change
channels on the converter box. This will probably only work
for the .1 digital channels unless the box provides some way
of mapping .x channels to unused channel numbers.
- there are also the old VCR-Plus+ type devices which were
basically IR blasters with timers built in. At 7pm it would
tell your VCR to turn on, change to channel 16 and start
recording; at 8pm it tells it to turn off. With a converter
box you would need to send "on" to both the box and the VCR,
send "change channel" to the box and "record" to the VCR. I'm
not sure if an actual VCR-Plus+ is this flexible but clearly
someone could design one if there were a sufficient market.
This could also be done easily with a PC based IR blaster.
- if the VCR cannot tell the box to change channels then you are
stuck having to set the channel manually. You could get a
little more flexibility by hooking up two converter boxes to
the VCR (one on RF, one on video-in). You then tune each box
to a different channel and your VCR selects between the two
inputs when recording.

There is one coupon eligible converter box that seems to be designed
with VCRs in mind, the Dish Network DTVPal (formerly EchoStar TR-40),
though it apparently isn't going to be available til mid-June (which
sucks for those who already got their "expires in 90 days" coupons).
You can program it to turn on and change channels at specified times,
just like a VCR. I think it also has an IR blaster so it can tell a
VCR to record, but if not then you just have to program both the box
and the VCR to record at the same time.

None of this is as useful as what you have now (although if it works
as described the DTVPal box might come close) but it will at least
allow you do get some additional years out of your old equipment.

Eventually you will need to get a recording device with a digital tuner
(Walmart has a ~$130 DVDR). Or MythTV or some other disk based PVR.
--
Jim Prescott - Computing and Networking Group
School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, University of Rochester, NY

"Steve Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 07:43:17PM -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:
"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."

I think they call it a legacy application. No doubt the Holy See is still
supporting God because their accounting system or whatever runs on it.

the holy see is definely the problem

----------------------
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice
cannot sleep forever."--Thomas Jefferson

"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide
everything." -- Josef V. Stalin

www.myspace.com/bodybuildinggranny

heavy on the country music. if you don't like country, scroll down for
some surprises.



Regards,

Steve

--
Rule number one when dealing with terrorists, be they wild-eyed fanatics,
uniformed thugs, or rabid academic ideologues, is to repudiate their
demands without equivocation. Those who cannot put forward their ideas
and
political agenda in a civilized context desserve no consideration or
compassion from civilized people.