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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

In

Seerialmom wrote:

I wish I could find soda with "sugar" in it; very few do
anymore...instead it's the HFCS (another dead horse that's been beaten
into the ground) which is worse.


Coke that's certified Kosher for Passover should be sweetened with sugar
only. In fact, any softdrink that's Kosher for Passover that's sweetened
(not artificially) should use only sugar.

This is the time of year to look for it.

--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

On Apr 25, 10:51*am, wrote:
In misc.consumers.frugal-living Seerialmom wrote:

I wish I could find soda with "sugar" in it; very few do
anymore...instead it's the HFCS (another dead horse that's been beaten


Coca-Cola that is "Kosher for Passover" will have cane sugar
and no corn syrup of any kind. *They put a different color cap
on it. *Should be available right now, if you hurry.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.


I saw them at Costco I believe. Only one problem I have with it..it's
Coca-Cola and not Pepsi But I practice my own method of limiting
how much HFCS I get in my Pepsi by only drinking 1 - 8oz can a day
with lots of ice (5 days a week...tops). Jones Cola also has
sugar...but dang...way too expensive and sold mostly at Cost Plus.
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

On Apr 25, 10:42*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Apr 24, 2:57*pm, h wrote:

But...are there really people in the US who still eat lots of grains, corn,
and rice? As a low-carber with a gluten sensitivity, I can't imagine that
stuff fed to anything but livestock.


Of course. *What ivory tower do you live in? *Carbohydrates are the
staple
food of millions of Americans.

Mmmm. *Nice chewy, crusty bread. *With real butter.

Cindy Hamilton


That's one of my definite weaknesses; fresh "Dutch Crust" bread with
butter. But it's only bought when it's on sale (reminds me, I keep
telling myself to look for a recipe, bread isn't that hard to make
from scratch).
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

HeyBub wrote:
aspasia wrote:


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by influential
agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states, shoveling out their
contributions to our beloved Congress-whores. They did not care what
ripple effects this would create in the Third World, where people are
now starving. Effects even felt in our neighbor to the South, where
the price of corn went through the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a
standard food, like wheat bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.

Nobody bothered to check with knowledgeable scientists as to the
state of ethanol fuel technology . Not that it would have deterred
the cynical profiteers if they *had* run the science. (Incidentally,
there are so many crops that would be far better, with less
downside, for fuel technology, leading off with marijuana's little
cousin, hemp. It grows on any soil, reseeds itself, costs virtually
nothing to produce. Even Brazil, that was using sugar cane waste, is
reconsidering the technology.)


Many do not check with reputable scientists.


Current technology does not favor "grass" type crops, including hemp, 'switch-grass' and others. The problem is the
enormous cost of transporting the raw materials to the processing plant.


Have fun explaining how come sugar cane works fine.

Corn is easy: high density material in little kernals. Note they don't try to make ethanol out of the corn STALKS.


They dont with drinkable ethanol either.

The sugar cane conversion in Brazil works because the cane stalks are waste from the sugar extraction;


Wrong. The ethanol comes from the sugar, not the waste.

the raw material is already concentrated in one place.


Its still a grass type crop.

The basic problem is not ethanol, the problem is enviornmentalism.
Consider: most of our electric power and all of our transportation
energy derives from oil and gas.


Only in countrys that dont use nukes.

Yet the air is cleaner today than it's ever been - even cleaner than before electricity (when people burned wood for
heating). But we've got this aversion to oil exploration, production, and refining.


Nope, thats been done so extensively for so long now that the
easiest to find oil has been found and quite a bit of it consumed.

Go figure.


Not possible when you mangle the basics so comprehensively.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

h wrote:
"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In article , h wrote:

"George" wrote in message
. ..
Frank wrote:
U.S. Rice is abundant. We grow twice as much rice as we eat.
Sam's Club
is rationing only ethnic rice. Ordinary long-grain, white rice is
cheaper than dirt - take as much as you want.

That maybe the case in your area, but we couldn't find any either
at the
local Sam's Club or Costco stores. No Texas long grain or other
type of rice. I'd checked Costo again yesterday, the shelves were
empty of rice as usual for the last few weeks, lots of beans
though, LOL. Rice prices are very high and if I'm not mistaken,
it has already triple for the year.
What we are seeing is the result of deciding to grind up food
(corn, grains, rice) to make ethanol to keep the SUVs going
without planning where that extra food will come from. At least we
have alternatives here.
How about the people in poor countries who depend on rice for food
but we
bought it to make ethanol?

But...are there really people in the US who still eat lots of
grains, corn,
and rice? As a low-carber with a gluten sensitivity, I can't
imagine that stuff fed to anything but livestock.


The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing demand
for livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers
from the decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog fattening diet is exactly the same as the
USDA's food pyramid except for one more serving of grain, right?


Pig ignorant lie. There is no meat in the hog fattening diet. No veg either.

Yeah, eating grain is good for you. Right. That's why so many Americans are orca fat.


Nope, the problem is the amount of it they shovel into their mouths, not the detail of the form its in.




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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
aspasia wrote:


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by influential
agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states, shoveling out their
contributions to our beloved Congress-whores. They did not care what
ripple effects this would create in the Third World, where people are
now starving. Effects even felt in our neighbor to the South, where
the price of corn went through the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a
standard food, like wheat bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


Name one, if you would be so kind. I can't think of any.
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:

HeyBub wrote:
aspasia wrote:


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by
influential agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states,
shoveling out their contributions to our beloved Congress-whores.
They did not care what ripple effects this would create in the
Third World, where people are now starving. Effects even felt in
our neighbor to the South, where the price of corn went through
the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a standard food, like wheat
bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


Name one, if you would be so kind. I can't think of any.


He'll probably try to pull out the Oklahoma Dustbowl as an example.
snicker

--
Dave www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

On Apr 24, 3:34*am, wrote:
The per usual republicrat farm socialism has created food supply
chaos, subsidized corn for ethanol fuel has crowded out other food
crops, speculators abroad have taken their bales of dollarpesos and
bought out our wheat supplies so that we'll have to re-import at a
higher price. Gov't. has paid southeast Texas farmers to raise
livestock instead of rice, now Sam's Club and Costco are rationing it.
So I tossed the ornamental plants and have planted corn, beans,
peppers, and tomatoes, maybe carrots next. I recommend others do the
same this season in their backyards if they have them. I don't think
there will be acute food shortages this year in the USA, but grocery
prices are high and getting higher. It will also save the fossile fuel
to get it from the farm to your table. I would raise meat but codes in
my 'burb won't allow it.


Grocery prices are "high?" We've got the cheapest food supply in the
world, and a long way to go before that's no longer true.

Everywhere else in the world food, fuel, and taxes eat up most of a
family's income. Here we whine and cry about how food is sooooo
expensive when we have to pay 25 cents more for a gallon of milk.

My father has spent his entire life dirt poor working his ass off on a
farm to provide you with that cheap food. My mother has spent the last
35 years dirt poor and has worked herself almost to death to provide
you with that cheap food. My brother and sister grew up dirt poor
working their asses off on the farm to provide you with that cheap
food. I grew up dirt poor working my ass off on the farm to provide
you with that cheap food.

You make me sick.
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wrote:
On Apr 24, 3:34 am, wrote:
The per usual republicrat farm socialism has created food supply
chaos, subsidized corn for ethanol fuel has crowded out other food
crops, speculators abroad have taken their bales of dollarpesos and
bought out our wheat supplies so that we'll have to re-import at a
higher price. Gov't. has paid southeast Texas farmers to raise
livestock instead of rice, now Sam's Club and Costco are rationing
it. So I tossed the ornamental plants and have planted corn, beans,
peppers, and tomatoes, maybe carrots next. I recommend others do the
same this season in their backyards if they have them. I don't think
there will be acute food shortages this year in the USA, but grocery
prices are high and getting higher. It will also save the fossile
fuel to get it from the farm to your table. I would raise meat but
codes in my 'burb won't allow it.


Grocery prices are "high?"


Yes, and getting higher.

We've got the cheapest food supply in the world, and a long way to go
before that's no longer true.


That's only a reasonable argument if we lived elsewhere in the world. We
don't. We live in America and our life-style and econmics are based in
America.

Everywhere else in the world food, fuel, and taxes eat up most of a
family's income. Here we whine and cry about how food is sooooo
expensive when we have to pay 25 cents more for a gallon of milk.


Already addressed above.

My father has spent his entire life dirt poor working his ass off on a
farm to provide you with that cheap food. My mother has spent the last
35 years dirt poor and has worked herself almost to death to provide
you with that cheap food. My brother and sister grew up dirt poor
working their asses off on the farm to provide you with that cheap
food. I grew up dirt poor working my ass off on the farm to provide
you with that cheap food.


Every night at supper, part of the Thanks I offer is for those who grow our
food. However, unless you live in China, you and your family are not
required to farm; you have made that choice. The fact that you choose to
make your living growing food is yours alone. The orchardists and wheat
farmers in my area don't spend a whole lot of time feeling sorry for
themselves or complaining about the row they've chosen to hoe.

You make me sick.


It's from ulcers. You need a new line of work.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Rod Speed wrote:

There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


"Mr. Sen is famous for his assertion that famines do not occur in
democracies. "No famine has ever taken place in the history of the world in
a functioning democracy," he wrote in 'Democracy as Freedom'. " For this
sort of thinking, Amartya Kumar Sen was awarded the 1998 Nobel Prize in
Economics.

If you have an alternative to the assertion, please share it with us. Until
then, we'll assume you don't know what you're talking about.


Nobody bothered to check with knowledgeable scientists as to the
state of ethanol fuel technology . Not that it would have deterred
the cynical profiteers if they *had* run the science. (Incidentally,
there are so many crops that would be far better, with less
downside, for fuel technology, leading off with marijuana's little
cousin, hemp. It grows on any soil, reseeds itself, costs virtually
nothing to produce. Even Brazil, that was using sugar cane waste, is
reconsidering the technology.)


Many do not check with reputable scientists.


Current technology does not favor "grass" type crops, including
hemp, 'switch-grass' and others. The problem is the enormous cost of
transporting the raw materials to the processing plant.


Have fun explaining how come sugar cane works fine.


Sugar cane is not a "grass" type crop - Duh!


The sugar cane conversion in Brazil works because the cane stalks
are waste from the sugar extraction;


Wrong. The ethanol comes from the sugar, not the waste.


My mistake. You are correct in this one instance. They could probably do as
well with beets.


The basic problem is not ethanol, the problem is enviornmentalism.
Consider: most of our electric power and all of our transportation
energy derives from oil and gas.


Only in countrys that dont use nukes.


There's a new measure of energy: the CMO (Cubic Mile of Oil). Right now, the
earth uses about 3 CMOs worth of energy per year. This is distributed as
follows:

Oil - 1.06 CMOs
Coal - 0.81 CMO
Gas - 0.61 CMO
Biomass (burning wood, ethanol, etc.) - 0.19 CMO
Hydroelectric - 0.17 CMO
Nuclear - 0.15 CMO

As you can see, hydrocarbons account for 2.48 CMOs, Nuclear for a tiny
fraction, probably even less than the use of charcoal.

You'd have to build one 900MW reactor per week for 50 years to generate the
energy contained in one CMO.

http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-992...tag=ne.fd.mnbc


Yet the air is cleaner today than it's ever been - even cleaner than
before electricity (when people burned wood for heating). But we've
got this aversion to oil exploration, production, and refining.


Nope, thats been done so extensively for so long now that the
easiest to find oil has been found and quite a bit of it consumed.


Heh! Ronald Reagan said that those who say there are no simple solutions
have just not tried hard enough. Do you realize that over 40% of our
offshore potential can't even be explored or tested?


Go figure.


Not possible when you mangle the basics so comprehensively.


Please enlighten us. I spent a number of years working in geophysical
exploration and production* and, while my knowledge is admittedly not up to
date, it is based on some experience.

-------
* Lab years involving the origin and migration of petroleum at the largest
laboratory for the world's largest oil company. Then a number of years for
the nation's largest exploration company.




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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
How come we can't convince the tree hugers to go jump off a cliff, so we can
build some more refineries, and drill the oil that's on US soil?


Because it's not a sustainable plan. It's still cheaper to import oil
than to produce it domestically. Hence, the search for economically
viable alternative (preferably renewable) energy sources.

Based on current US policy, though, domestic drilling would be a better
idea than anything currently enacted.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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HeyBub wrote:

Please enlighten us. I spent a number of years working in geophysical
exploration and production* and, while my knowledge is admittedly not
up to date, it is based on some experience.

-------
* Lab years involving the origin and migration of petroleum at the
largest laboratory for the world's largest oil company. Then a number
of years for the nation's largest exploration company.


That's just not fair and probably a right-wing conspiracy set-up to boot.
Actual knowledge of the topic isn't allowed. There must be a Godwin rule for
this type of netiquette breach.... or something.

--
Dave www.davebbq.com

What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

I think growing a garden is the smart thing to do this year.

I went and got some more plants today.

About high prices: I have noticed that bread is a lot higher too. At
least a dollar more per loaf here in Kentucky, which to me is a lot. I
heard on TV that there was also a grain shortage. And in other
countries people spend up to 80% of their takehome pay on food, and
now food prices are rising a LOT.

It's a perfect time to plant -- and you can get seeds for crops such
as zucchini and peas that are great foods and economical.

Do you have enough space? Do you get a lot of sun?

About raising meat: are you sure you can't raise rabbits or chickens?
You may want to check around your area to find farmers that can sell
you meat at a good price that is from their farm. Around here, there
are a few that do that.

ES

On Apr 24, 2:34 am, wrote:
The per usual republicrat farm socialism has created food supply
chaos, subsidized corn for ethanol fuel has crowded out other food
crops, speculators abroad have taken their bales of dollarpesos and
bought out our wheat supplies so that we'll have to re-import at a
higher price.

snipped
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.


The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing demand
for livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers
from the decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog
fattening diet is exactly the same as the USDA's food pyramid except for
one more serving of grain, right?


Pig ignorant lie. There is no meat in the hog fattening diet. No veg
either.


When farmers recycle the meat waste product back into the animal feed the
consequence was mad cow disease. What do they do with the meat waste
products now?


Yeah, eating grain is good for you. Right. That's why so many Americans
are orca fat.


Nope, the problem is the amount of it they shovel into their mouths, not
the detail of the form its in.


I think its both quantity and quality. From what I understand, most of our
meat, beef for example, are exclusively corn fed. There is no natural corn,
only hybrid genetically altered and selected for high packing density, fast
growth, resist diseases and pesticides and various characteristics to suite
the farmer's need. This genetic corn has low nutritious value and results in
six times more bad cholesterol and fat than grass fed beef. It worries me
when super strong pesticides kill the toughest weeds but couldn't touch the
corn stocks. Further, chemicals, antibiotics and growth hormones are added
to the feed. At one time, don't know about now, Europeans and even starving
Africans refuse to accept corn for the US. Alls I know is Americans are
different when compared with decades ago to the present, relative of weight,
health and behavior and I think it has to do with our food source in some
way.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Kurt Ullman wrote
Rod Speed wrote
HeyBub wrote
aspasia wrote


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by
influential agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states,
shoveling out their contributions to our beloved Congress-whores.
They did not care what ripple effects this would create in the
Third World, where people are now starving. Effects even felt in
our neighbor to the South, where the price of corn went through
the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a standard food, like wheat
bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


Name one, if you would be so kind.


Depends on what you call a democracy. They had some in ancient times in Greece etc.

There were some in India after independance too.

And the Irish Potato Famine etc too.

I can't think of any.


Your problem.




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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

HeyBub wrote
Rod Speed wrote:
HeyBub wrote


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


"Mr. Sen is famous for his assertion that famines do not occur in
democracies. "No famine has ever taken place in the history of the
world in a functioning democracy," he wrote in 'Democracy as Freedom'."


He's just plain wrong.

For this sort of thinking, Amartya Kumar Sen was awarded the 1998 Nobel Prize in Economics.


Nope, not for that steaming turd he wasnt.

If you have an alternative to the assertion, please share it with us.


Just did.

Until then, we'll assume you don't know what you're talking about.


Just how many of you are there between those ears ?

Nobody bothered to check with knowledgeable scientists as to the
state of ethanol fuel technology . Not that it would have deterred
the cynical profiteers if they *had* run the science.
(Incidentally, there are so many crops that would be far better,
with less downside, for fuel technology, leading off with
marijuana's little cousin, hemp. It grows on any soil, reseeds
itself, costs virtually nothing to produce. Even Brazil, that was
using sugar cane waste, is reconsidering the technology.)


Many do not check with reputable scientists.


Current technology does not favor "grass" type crops, including
hemp, 'switch-grass' and others. The problem is the enormous cost of transporting the raw materials to the
processing plant.


Have fun explaining how come sugar cane works fine.


Sugar cane is not a "grass" type crop


Corse it is.

- Duh!


Your sig is supposed to be at the bottom with a line with -- on it by itself in front of it.

The sugar cane conversion in Brazil works because the cane stalks are waste from the sugar extraction;


Wrong. The ethanol comes from the sugar, not the waste.


My mistake. You are correct in this one instance.


In all of them, actually.

They could probably do as well with beets.


Those dont grow that well in Brazil and are harder to harvest too.

The basic problem is not ethanol, the problem is enviornmentalism.
Consider: most of our electric power and all of our transportation
energy derives from oil and gas.


Only in countrys that dont use nukes.


There's a new measure of energy: the CMO (Cubic Mile of Oil). Right now, the earth uses about 3 CMOs worth of energy
per year. This is distributed as follows:


Oil - 1.06 CMOs
Coal - 0.81 CMO
Gas - 0.61 CMO
Biomass (burning wood, ethanol, etc.) - 0.19 CMO
Hydroelectric - 0.17 CMO
Nuclear - 0.15 CMO


Irrelevant to the countrys that choose to use nukes
for the bulk of their electric power generation.

As you can see, hydrocarbons account for 2.48 CMOs,


But oil and gas doesnt dominate electric power generation. You are wrong.

Nuclear for a tiny fraction, probably even less than the use of charcoal.


Not in some countrys like France and Japan.

You'd have to build one 900MW reactor per week for 50 years to generate the energy contained in one CMO.
http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-992...tag=ne.fd.mnbc


Go tell the frogs. Dont be too surprised when they laugh in your face.

Yet the air is cleaner today than it's ever been - even cleaner than
before electricity (when people burned wood for heating). But we've got this aversion to oil exploration,
production, and refining.


Nope, thats been done so extensively for so long now that the
easiest to find oil has been found and quite a bit of it consumed.


Heh! Ronald Reagan said that those who say there are no simple solutions have just not tried hard enough.


And he ended up with Alzhiemers. You're well along that line.

Do you realize that over 40% of our offshore potential can't even be explored or tested?


That aint the easiest to find, stupid.

Go figure.


Not possible when you mangle the basics so comprehensively.


Please enlighten us.


Just how many of you are there between those ears ?

I spent a number of years working in geophysical exploration and production*


And you completely mangled that claim about oil and gas and electricity generation.

and, while my knowledge is admittedly not
up to date, it is based on some experience.


Pity about what has happened between your ears since.

No surprise that they gave you the bums rush.

-------
* Lab years involving the origin and migration of petroleum at the largest laboratory for the world's largest oil
company. Then a number of years for the nation's largest exploration company.


And then they came to their senses and gave you the bums rush, right out the door.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Frank wrote:
Rod Speed wrote


The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing
demand for livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers from the decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog fattening diet is exactly the same as the
USDA's food pyramid except for one more serving of grain, right?


Pig ignorant lie. There is no meat in the hog fattening diet. No veg either.


When farmers recycle the meat waste product back into the animal feed the consequence was mad cow disease.


Thats not how mad cow disease was produced. It came from
the use of scrapie infected sheep meat used in the feed for cows,
and that only happened in a few countrys, it wasnt universal.

Some countrys never did get any mad cow disease.

What do they do with the meat waste products now?


They dont let scrapie or mad cow infected meat get into the food chain anymore.

In the case of Papua and NewGuinea natives, they stopped them eating their relatives.

Yeah, eating grain is good for you. Right. That's why so many Americans are orca fat.


Nope, the problem is the amount of it they shovel into their mouths, not the detail of the form its in.


I think its both quantity and quality.


You're wrong. They ate plenty of grain in the days before the
epidemic of gross obesity. The problem is how much of it you
shovel into your mouth compared with how many calories you burn.

From what I understand, most of our meat, beef for example, are exclusively corn fed.


Thats just plain wrong.

There is no natural corn, only hybrid genetically altered


That last is just plain wrong too. And plant breeding
is what produced modern wheats and rice too.

and selected for high packing density, fast growth, resist diseases and pesticides and various characteristics to
suite the farmer's need.


Just like with all the grain crops too.

This genetic corn has low nutritious value


Wrong. Its used because it has a HIGH nutritious value.

and results in six times more bad cholesterol and fat than grass fed beef.


That number is plucked out of someone's arse.

It worries me when super strong pesticides kill the toughest weeds


No they dont, thats weedicides.

but couldn't touch the corn stocks.


Thats wrong too.

Further, chemicals, antibiotics and growth hormones are added to the feed.


Wrong again with growth hormones.

At one time, don't know about now, Europeans and even starving Africans refuse to accept corn for the US.


Yes, there are some fools that refused to eat any GM food.

Plenty of with a clue are happy to eat some GM food.

And everyone eats food thats the result of centurys of plant breeding which is
all about genetics, because there isnt any other kind except wild game and fish.

Alls I know is Americans are different when compared with decades ago to the present, relative of weight, health and
behavior


So is every other country on earth.

and I think it has to do with our food source in some way.


You're wrong. And every other modern first world country has got
the same obesity result that americans have, for the same reason.
Plenty of the third world countrys too, most obviously with pacific islanders etc.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

wrote:
On Apr 24, 3:34 am, wrote:
The per usual republicrat farm socialism has created food supply
chaos, subsidized corn for ethanol fuel has crowded out other food
crops, speculators abroad have taken their bales of dollarpesos and
bought out our wheat supplies so that we'll have to re-import at a
higher price. Gov't. has paid southeast Texas farmers to raise
livestock instead of rice, now Sam's Club and Costco are rationing
it. So I tossed the ornamental plants and have planted corn, beans,
peppers, and tomatoes, maybe carrots next. I recommend others do the
same this season in their backyards if they have them. I don't think
there will be acute food shortages this year in the USA, but grocery
prices are high and getting higher. It will also save the fossile
fuel to get it from the farm to your table. I would raise meat but
codes in my 'burb won't allow it.


Grocery prices are "high?" We've got the cheapest food supply
in the world, and a long way to go before that's no longer true.


True.

Everywhere else in the world food, fuel, and taxes eat up most of a family's income.


Nope, that doesnt happen in any other first world
country and none of the second world countrys either.

It isnt even true of much of the third world either.

Here we whine and cry about how food is sooooo expensive
when we have to pay 25 cents more for a gallon of milk.


My father has spent his entire life dirt poor working his
ass off on a farm to provide you with that cheap food.


If he's dirt poor, he's doing it wrong.

My mother has spent the last 35 years dirt poor and has worked
herself almost to death to provide you with that cheap food.


If she's dirt poor, she's doing it wrong.

My brother and sister grew up dirt poor working their
asses off on the farm to provide you with that cheap
food. I grew up dirt poor working my ass off on the
farm to provide you with that cheap food.


The problem is clearly in the genes.

You make me sick.


Your problem.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Rod Speed wrote
Kurt Ullman wrote
Rod Speed wrote
HeyBub wrote
aspasia wrote


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by
influential agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states,
shoveling out their contributions to our beloved Congress-whores.
They did not care what ripple effects this would create in the
Third World, where people are now starving. Effects even felt in
our neighbor to the South, where the price of corn went through
the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a standard food, like wheat
bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


Name one, if you would be so kind.


Depends on what you call a democracy. They had some in ancient times in Greece etc.


There were some in India after independance too.


And the Irish Potato Famine etc too.


And Japan after it lost WW2 and was returned to a democracy by the Allies too.

I can't think of any.


Your problem.



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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

In article , h wrote:

"Don Klipstein" wrote in message
...
In article , h wrote:

"George" wrote in message
om...
Frank wrote:
U.S. Rice is abundant. We grow twice as much rice as we eat. Sam's
Club
is rationing only ethnic rice. Ordinary long-grain, white rice is
cheaper than dirt - take as much as you want.

That maybe the case in your area, but we couldn't find any either at
the
local Sam's Club or Costco stores. No Texas long grain or other type of
rice. I'd checked Costo again yesterday, the shelves were empty of rice
as usual for the last few weeks, lots of beans though, LOL. Rice prices
are very high and if I'm not mistaken, it has already triple for the
year.
What we are seeing is the result of deciding to grind up food (corn,
grains, rice) to make ethanol to keep the SUVs going without planning
where that extra food will come from. At least we have alternatives
here.
How about the people in poor countries who depend on rice for food but
we
bought it to make ethanol?

But...are there really people in the US who still eat lots of grains,
corn,
and rice? As a low-carber with a gluten sensitivity, I can't imagine that
stuff fed to anything but livestock.


The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing demand for
livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers from the
decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog
fattening diet is exactly the same as the USDA's food pyramid except for one
more serving of grain, right? Yeah, eating grain is good for you. Right.
That's why so many Americans are orca fat.


Hogs get fat from high calorie intake. Keep in mind that when the low
carb craze was expanding, America's waistlines and diabetes rates
continued expanding.

- Don Klipstein )


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In article , h wrote:

"Norminn" wrote in message
om...
clipped

But...are there really people in the US who still eat lots of grains,
corn,
and rice? As a low-carber with a gluten sensitivity, I can't imagine
that
stuff fed to anything but livestock.

The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing demand for
livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers from the
decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog
fattening diet is exactly the same as the USDA's food pyramid except for
one more serving of grain, right? Yeah, eating grain is good for you.
Right. That's why so many Americans are orca fat.

I've never paid attention to diet crazes, so I'm not conversant in the
"low carb" fad. All I know is that
carbs have a little more than half the calories, per gram, that fats. If
I want a plate full of food, then my
reasoning is carbs are better than fat. Of course, plenty of veggies. I
hear about people who have tried
every diet craze and still "can't" lose weight. I call them "tasters".
Pure bunk. They must think their
energy stores are some kind of nuclear reactor that keeps turning without
burning up the fuel. When
I decided to lose weight, I quit eating butter and gravy. Never loaded up
on the stuff, but I lost 40
pounds without doing anything else. The fat people I know keep a bag of
Oreo's and a liter of pop
next to their chairs at all times.


Carbs are sugar,


Many are starch.

and that's absolutely terrible for most people. Unless you are very
active, you will not use up all the carbs and then store the excess
as fat.


That is true of all forms of calories.

If you eat predominately protein and fat you become a fat burning
machine instead of a sugar burning machine, which is better for your body.


More work on the liver and kidneys. And muscles burn sugar more readily
than anything else.

Also, you don't experience the highs and lows of the sugar rush.


I eat most of my calories from starch and I don't suffer sugar highs and
lows.

The only carbs I eat are veggies and fruit, and I only eat the
lower-carb ones. And the idea of drinking any beverage with sugar in it
just amazes me. I can't quite comprehend how anyone can eat pre-packaged,
processed food. How hard is it to make a salad and broil some chicken,
meat or fish?


- Don Klipstein )
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In ,
Seerialmom wrote:

I wish I could find soda with "sugar" in it; very few do
anymore...instead it's the HFCS (another dead horse that's been beaten
into the ground) which is worse.


HFCS is usually 55% fructose 45% glucose. Sucrose is half fructose half
glucose. I don't think the difference is great.

But soda in Canada usually has sucrose - they don't boycott Cuba so
sugar is cheaper in Canada.

- Don Klipstein )
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

In article , Frank wrote:

The low carb craze has increased grain demands by increasing demand
for livestock. Ethanol demand came in time to rescue grain farmers
from the decline of the low carb craze.


Wow. Eating a healthy diet is now a "craze"? You are aware that the hog
fattening diet is exactly the same as the USDA's food pyramid except for
one more serving of grain, right?


Pig ignorant lie. There is no meat in the hog fattening diet. No veg
either.


When farmers recycle the meat waste product back into the animal feed the
consequence was mad cow disease. What do they do with the meat waste
products now?

Yeah, eating grain is good for you. Right. That's why so many Americans
are orca fat.


Nope, the problem is the amount of it they shovel into their mouths, not
the detail of the form its in.


I think its both quantity and quality. From what I understand, most of our
meat, beef for example, are exclusively corn fed. There is no natural corn,
only hybrid genetically altered and selected for high packing density, fast
growth, resist diseases and pesticides and various characteristics to suite
the farmer's need. This genetic corn has low nutritious value and results in
six times more bad cholesterol and fat than grass fed beef. It worries me
when super strong pesticides kill the toughest weeds but couldn't touch the
corn stocks. Further, chemicals, antibiotics and growth hormones are added
to the feed. At one time, don't know about now, Europeans and even starving
Africans refuse to accept corn for the US. Alls I know is Americans are
different when compared with decades ago to the present, relative of weight,
health and behavior and I think it has to do with our food source in some
way.


Our beef would be about the same even if the corn was "older tech"
corn - just more expensive from the corn being more expensive. Beef from
cattle grown largely standing still on feedlots is different and a lot
fattier than beef from cattle that lived on grazing land and had to walk
and run a lot.

Americans are different from decades ago by getting a lot less exercise,
and eating more of everything, with a notable exception of veggies.
Americans consume especially more fast food, junk food and soda than
before. And trans fats have been used a lot mainly during and after the
second half of the 20th century.

- Don Klipstein )
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In article , h wrote:

"Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 2:57 pm, h wrote:

But...are there really people in the US who still eat lots of grains,
corn,
and rice? As a low-carber with a gluten sensitivity, I can't imagine that
stuff fed to anything but livestock.


Of course. What ivory tower do you live in? Carbohydrates are the
staple food of millions of Americans.


Yep. And that's why so many Americans are so fat.


Then how does that explain America continuing to get fatter when the low
carb craze came in, and low carbers failing to lose weight as much as
everyone else? And most of the few skinny Americans eating at Old
Country Buffet having their calorie intake mainly from carbs?

And overweightness increasing in Japan when the diet there gained fat
and protein content, especially fat content? What about the diets and
overweightness rates in India and China?

- Don Klipstein )
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In ,
annezie wrote:

I think growing a garden is the smart thing to do this year.

I went and got some more plants today.

About high prices: I have noticed that bread is a lot higher too. At
least a dollar more per loaf here in Kentucky, which to me is a lot.


Even at today's high prices, the wheat in a loaf of bread costs about
20 cents or somewhat less.

If I understand right, wheat prices at the Chicago Board of Trade most
recently went for $8-$8.09 per bushel. (The price peaked in late
February, a bit over $12 at Chicago Board of Trade and about $17 at
Minneapolis Board of Trade IIUC.)

A bushel of wheat weighs 60 pounds. That has wheat costing about 8.3
cents per pound. A loaf of bread usually weighs 22-24 ounces, including
some added water.

I would encourange gardening to combat the inflation in whatever/whoever
is increasing the size of their slices of the pie.

- Don Klipstein )


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

aspasia wrote:

Until we get the money out of politics, nothing will change. And
guess who would have to pass the relevant laws?


I disagree. The "special interests" (read: money) are the antidote to the
frenzy of the masses. Special interests act as a check-and-balance to the
whims of the mob. Sometimes the special interests win (farm subsidies),
sometimes the mob wins (global warming). It averages out.

George Will proposed a three-rule campaign finance reform:
1. No foreign money.
2. No cash.
3. Instant reporting.

That's it. If someone wants to vote for a candidate entirely financed by
Exxon-Mobile, well, why not?


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In article ,
" Frank" wrote:

When farmers recycle the meat waste product back into the animal feed the
consequence was mad cow disease. What do they do with the meat waste
products now?

Brain and spinal cord (hardly all meat waste) is what causes problems
with mad cow.


six times more bad cholesterol and fat than grass fed beef. It worries me
when super strong pesticides kill the toughest weeds but couldn't touch the
corn stocks.

Why? Pesticides interfere with certain processes going on in weeds
that aren't going in corn stocks. You get upset when strong pesticides
kill the toughest weeds but leave your lawn grass alone. You worried
about how antibiotics kill the toughest germs but leave you alive? Same
principle.
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

In article ,
"Rod Speed" wrote:



I can't think of any.


Your problem.


From your reply apparently the same one you have. I loved the late
inclusion of the "depends".
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Rod Speed wrote:

"Mr. Sen is famous for his assertion that famines do not occur in
democracies. "No famine has ever taken place in the history of the
world in a functioning democracy," he wrote in 'Democracy as
Freedom'."


He's just plain wrong.

For this sort of thinking, Amartya Kumar Sen was awarded the 1998
Nobel Prize in Economics.


Nope, not for that steaming turd he wasnt.


Uh, yes. For exactly that:

"Amartya Kumar Sen is an economist best known for his work on famine, Human
development theory, welfare economics, and the underlying causes of poverty
and hunger. When the world was talking of free market economy, Prof. Sen
emphasised the need for giving a human face to development. Amartya Sen is
one of those few economists who talk of political economy of hunger. He
received the ... Noble prize for economics... for his work in mathematical
economics in 1998."



If you have an alternative to the assertion, please share it with us.


Just did.


Okay, show us a famine that has ever taken place in the history of the world
in a functioning democracy. There have been food shortages in democracies,
true. There may have even been widespread hunger. But never a famine.

The ball's in your court. Instead of flatly denying what many can
demonstrate as an obvious truth, show us an example.

Just one.




As you can see, hydrocarbons account for 2.48 CMOs,


But oil and gas doesnt dominate electric power generation. You are
wrong.


I said "hydrocarbons."

Electric power generation in the United States by source:
Coal - 50%
Natural gas - 18%
Oil - 3%
Total hydrocarbons - 71%
Nuclear - 20%
Hydropower - 7%
http://www.data360.org/graph_group.a...h_Group_Id=360



Nuclear for a tiny fraction, probably even less than the use of
charcoal.


Not in some countrys like France and Japan.


France generates 78% of its electricity from nuclear.

Japan is a little different (Japan alone accounts for half of Australia's
coal exports)
Coal - 19%
Oil - 18%
Natural gas - 20%
Total hydrocarbon - 57%
Nuclear - 32%

Both France and Japan have substantial generation capability using nuclear
energy.


Heh! Ronald Reagan said that those who say there are no simple
solutions have just not tried hard enough.


And he ended up with Alzhiemers. You're well along that line.


Can't find fault with the message, so attack the messenger. Such
argumentation techniques demonstrate the paucity of arguments.


Do you realize that over 40% of our offshore potential can't even be
explored or tested?


That aint the easiest to find, stupid.


You're correct. The "easiest" to find is that which seeps out of the ground
as in Titusville, Pennsylvania in 1859 or the La Brea Tar Pits today, or
where seams of coal break the surface. Offshore exploration is, however,
almost trivial. The company I worked for, Western Geophysical, was selling
offshore seismic survey results at $20/mile in the Gulf of Mexico. Of course
that was back when $20 was a lot of money - they're probably charging $30
today.



And you completely mangled that claim about oil and gas and
electricity generation.


I never said "oil and gas." I said "hydrocarbons." Hydrocarbons account for
83% of the world's energy use (not just electricity) - 71% in the U.S.

I may no longer be in the oil bidness (as we say in Texas), but I remember
the difference between "hydrocarbons" and "oil and gas."





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Nate Nagel wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
How come we can't convince the tree hugers to go jump off a cliff,
so we can build some more refineries, and drill the oil that's on US
soil?


Because it's not a sustainable plan. It's still cheaper to import oil
than to produce it domestically. Hence, the search for economically
viable alternative (preferably renewable) energy sources.

Based on current US policy, though, domestic drilling would be a
better idea than anything currently enacted.


Renewable won't work and can't be made to work. Renewables can nibble at the
margins, but large scale? Nah. Here's why:

The energy received from the sun is about 1350 Watts/sq meter. At the
equator. At noon. With no clouds.

Assuming solar collectors with an efficiency of 50%, and adjusting for
latitude, clouds, and night, we would need a solar collector farm the size
of the Los Angeles basin (1200 sq miles) to provide enough electricity for
just California. The downsides of this plan are obvious: The cost of the
solar farm would be enormous, and it's maintenance equally prohibitive.
Plus, you'd need a battery farm the size of Barksdale to tide Californians
over during the night.

Also, everyone in Los Angeles and Barksdale would be living in the dark
(which might be a plus).

The good news is that the amount of radiation reaching the earth (the
aforementioned 1350 Watts) can be increased by simply moving the orbit of
the earth closer to the sun.

And "renewable" is not always a holy word. Think whale oil.


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Don Klipstein wrote:

I would encourange gardening to combat the inflation in
whatever/whoever is increasing the size of their slices of the pie.



Gardening works if it attracts rabbits.

Remember, vegetables are not food; vegetables are what food eats.


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In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:

I would encourange gardening to combat the inflation in
whatever/whoever is increasing the size of their slices of the pie.



Gardening works if it attracts rabbits.

Remember, vegetables are not food; vegetables are what food eats.


Sounds like my favorite bumper sticker: "If we're not supposed to eat
animals, why are they made of meat?"
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"HeyBub" writes:

Okay, show us a famine that has ever taken place in the history of the world
in a functioning democracy. There have been food shortages in democracies,
true. There may have even been widespread hunger. But never a famine.


Wikipedia has a handy list of famines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

scanning the list I see there were famines in Belgium and Greece
during WW2.
There are a few Irish famines, and one in Scotland.

I'm pretty sure all those countries had some sort of benevolent
monarchy at the time which was the fashion until only recently.

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I'm at a loss to understand what the point is.

The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that's unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.

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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Dan Espen wrote
HeyBub wrote


Okay, show us a famine that has ever taken place in the
history of the world in a functioning democracy. There have
been food shortages in democracies, true. There may have
even been widespread hunger. But never a famine.


Wikipedia has a handy list of famines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines


It does indeed.

A few obvious omissions tho, particularly Japan just after WW2
had ended when democracy had been imposed there by the allies.

And India after independance.

scanning the list I see there were famines in Belgium and Greece during WW2.


Those werent arguably democracys at that time tho. Holland tool.

There are a few Irish famines,


Yep, those are good examples of famines in a democracy.

and one in Scotland.


That wasnt as extreme a famine as many of the others.

I'm pretty sure all those countries had some sort of benevolent
monarchy at the time which was the fashion until only recently.


They were also democracys, in spades with Japan after WW2.

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.


There isnt really much alternative.

Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.


Wrong, particularly with the first democracys in ancient greece etc.

I'm at a loss to understand what the point is.


What was been discussed as clearly Sen's assertion
that there has never been a famine in a democracy.

He's clearly just plain wrong on that.

The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.


Not really. In most recent times its been more about effective plant breeding
thats eliminated the famines that arent the result of war. Effective plant
breeding has been going on for a hell of a lot more than just modern times.

Democracies may lead to more peace


Even thats very arguable with WW1 and WW2 being mostly involving democracys.

but I think that's unproven.


And Sen's claim that there has never been a famine in a democracy is clearly just plain wrong.

We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.


Yep, in spades with WW1, WW2 and the cold war, and Vietnam etc.

Its certainly true that now that modern plant breeding and the transport of food to
areas affected by natural catastrophe, that its mostly areas where war or civil strife
is rampant that sees famine now, most obviously with the most recent famines.




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HeyBub wrote
Rod Speed wrote


"Mr. Sen is famous for his assertion that famines do not occur in
democracies. "No famine has ever taken place in the history of the
world in a functioning democracy," he wrote in 'Democracy as Freedom'."


He's just plain wrong.


For this sort of thinking, Amartya Kumar Sen was awarded the 1998 Nobel Prize in Economics.


Nope, not for that steaming turd he wasnt.


Uh, yes. For exactly that:


Nope, nothing like that particular steaming turd. He got his Nobel prize
for MATHEMATICAL ECONOMICS, and that particular steaming
turd of his has NOTHING to do with MATHEMATICAL economics.

"Amartya Kumar Sen is an economist best known for his work on famine,
Human development theory, welfare economics, and the underlying
causes of poverty and hunger. When the world was talking of free
market economy, Prof. Sen emphasised the need for giving a human face
to development. Amartya Sen is one of those few economists who talk
of political economy of hunger.


Irrelevant to what he got the Nobel Prize for.

He received the ... Noble prize for economics... for his work in mathematical economics in 1998."


And that steaming turd at the top has nothing to do with MATHEMATICAL economics.

If you have an alternative to the assertion, please share it with us.


Just did.


Okay, show us a famine that has ever taken place in the history of the world in a functioning democracy.


Just did, they had some in ancient times in Greece etc.

There were some in India after independance too.

And the Irish Potato Famine etc too.

And Japan after democracy had been imposed by the allies after WW2.

And Sen never said anything about a FUCNTIONING democracy,
thats you slithering off from the original claim, as you always do.

There have been food shortages in democracies, true. There may have even been widespread hunger. But never a famine.


The Irish potato famine was a famine by any measure and is called a famine too.

The ball's in your court.


Nope, yours.

Instead of flatly denying what many can demonstrate as an obvious truth,


You're lying now.

show us an example.


Just one.


I showed you 4. Bull**** your way out of those.

As you can see, hydrocarbons account for 2.48 CMOs,


But oil and gas doesnt dominate electric power generation. You are wrong.


I said "hydrocarbons."


Says he carefully deleting what he actually did say from the quoting.

He's what you ACTUALLY said

The basic problem is not ethanol, the problem is enviornmentalism.
Consider: most of our electric power and all of our transportation
energy derives from oil and gas.


You are a flagrantly dishonest pathological liar. You ACTUALLY said oil and gas, liar.

Electric power generation in the United States by source:
Coal - 50%
Natural gas - 18%
Oil - 3%
Total hydrocarbons - 71%
Nuclear - 20%
Hydropower - 7%
http://www.data360.org/graph_group.a...h_Group_Id=360


Like I said, **** all oil is involved in the generation of electricity in the US.
Even gas is only a minor contributor, less than nukes and some countrys
like France have grossly more generated by nukes than oil and gas combined.

Nuclear for a tiny fraction, probably even less than the use of charcoal.


Not in some countrys like France and Japan.


France generates 78% of its electricity from nuclear.


And **** all from oil and gas, so your original claim, which you carefully
deleted from the quoting and I have restored is clearly just plain wrong.

Japan is a little different (Japan alone accounts for half of Australia's coal exports)


Irrelevant since your stupid claim was about OIL AND GAS, not hydrocarbons.

Coal - 19%
Oil - 18%
Natural gas - 20%
Total hydrocarbon - 57%
Nuclear - 32%


Both France and Japan have substantial generation capability using nuclear energy.


What I said.

Heh! Ronald Reagan said that those who say there are no simple solutions have just not tried hard enough.


And he ended up with Alzhiemers. You're well along that line.


Can't find fault with the message,


You're lying, again. That claim is terminally stupid. There is no simple
solution to the world's consumption of crude oil, whatever that fool claimed.

so attack the messenger.


You're no messenger, just a pathological liar.

Such argumentation techniques demonstrate the paucity of arguments.


Your pathological lying in spades.

Yet the air is cleaner today than it's ever been - even cleaner than before electricity (when people burned wood
for heating). But we've got this aversion to oil exploration, production, and refining.


Nope, thats been done so extensively for so long now that the
easiest to find oil has been found and quite a bit of it consumed.


Do you realize that over 40% of our offshore potential can't even be explored or tested?


That aint the easiest to find, stupid.


You're correct. The "easiest" to find is that which seeps out of the ground as in Titusville, Pennsylvania in 1859 or
the La Brea Tar Pits today, or where seams of coal break the surface. Offshore exploration is, however, almost
trivial. The company I worked for, Western Geophysical, was selling offshore seismic survey results at $20/mile in the
Gulf of Mexico. Of course that was back when $20 was a lot of money - they're probably charging $30 today.


The problem with offshore oil aint the exploration, its the cost of getting that oil out of the ground.

It makes a lot more sense to exploit onshore oil while its available.

And you completely mangled that claim about oil and gas and electricity generation.


I never said "oil and gas." I said "hydrocarbons."


You're a pathological liar. Here is what you actually did say, liar.

The basic problem is not ethanol, the problem is enviornmentalism.
Consider: most of our electric power and all of our transportation
energy derives from oil and gas.


How odd that you deleted that from the quoting.

Hydrocarbons account for 83% of the world's energy use (not just electricity) - 71% in the U.S.


Irrelevant to your stupid claim about oil and gas in electricity generation just above.

I may no longer be in the oil bidness (as we say in Texas), but I
remember the difference between "hydrocarbons" and "oil and gas."


But your altzhiemers is now so bad that you cant even manage to remember what you actually
did say about electricity generation and have to lie about what you said just one over ago.

No wonder you got the bums rush, right out the door.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Kurt Ullman wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Kurt Ullman wrote
Rod Speed wrote
HeyBub wrote
aspasia wrote


Or rather corn ethanol demand was craftily engineered by
influential agribusinessmen in certain "heartland" states,
shoveling out their contributions to our beloved Congress-whores.
They did not care what ripple effects this would create in the
Third World, where people are now starving. Effects even felt in
our neighbor to the South, where the price of corn went through
the ceiling, affecting tortillas -- a standard food, like wheat
bread in the States.


There has never been a famine in a democracy.


Wrong.


Name one, if you would be so kind.


Depends on what you call a democracy. They had some in ancient times in Greece etc.


There were some in India after independance too.


And the Irish Potato Famine etc too.


And Japan after it lost WW2 and was returned to a democracy by the Allies too.


I can't think of any.


Your problem.


From your reply apparently the same one you have.
I loved the late inclusion of the "depends".


Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

Address those named, you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

Dan Espen wrote:

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I'm at a loss to understand what the point is.


The point is that famines are caused by political systems. In a functioning
democracy, food can be supplied by the central government. In other words, a
democratic government is the solution to difficulties caused by natural
disasters. In totalitarian governments, often the government is the cause of
the famine. For current examples, consider North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Sudan.


The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that's unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.


North Korea and Zimbabwe are both at peace. Don't know about Zim, but North
Korea certainly has the capacity for modern industry - witness their nuclear
program.


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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

As long as the oil is there food can be produced. Once it runs
out hundreds of millions will starve to death

Bumper boro crop: But what next?
Ahsan Mansur


BANGLADESH is at the threshold of a massive bumper boro crop. Reports
from all across the country point to a potential boro output well
above the ambitious government target of 17.5 million tons. This is
certainly the best news for the country and the government besieged by
the surge in rice price all across the globe and the danger of food
shortage.

The excellent outlook for boro also comes on the heels of bumper wheat
and potato crops. This outlook also poses important policy
opportunities and challenges for the government to reestablish our
agriculture policy on a sustainable footing, consistent with the
objectives of making Bangladesh self-sufficient in food, alleviating
social and political tensions arising from the high food prices, and
at the same time eliminating emerging fiscal imbalances.

This forthcoming record rice output is the result of farmers'
whole-hearted response to the terms-of-trade (TOT) shock in favour of
rice producers and the strengthened support provided by various
government agencies. The favorable TOT shift is the most that the
farmers have experienced anytime in recent history.

The price increase of Tk 12-15 per kg of rice observed in local
markets should create additional income of Tk 21,000-26,250 crores
($3-3.75 billion) for the farmers based on the official target for
boro. Since both acres brought under boro production and the yield per
acre are projected to be higher than their targets, the actual amount
of the increase in income from boro should be significantly higher. If
we add to his boro crop an average level of production of aman and
aus, Bangladesh should expect to achieve self-sufficiency in food
grain. With total output exceeding 30 million tons, the amount of
potential total additional income for the farmers would range between
Tk. 36,000-45,000 crores ($5.1-6.4 billion) or 8-10 percent of GDP in
a full year.

High food prices
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Default Food shortage ethanol follies, I've planted a food garden.

habshi wrote:

As long as the oil is there food can be produced. Once it runs out


It wont ever 'run out', just get more expensive.

hundreds of millions will starve to death


Not necessarily.

Bumper boro crop: But what next?
Ahsan Mansur


BANGLADESH is at the threshold of a massive bumper boro crop.
Reports from all across the country point to a potential boro output
well above the ambitious government target of 17.5 million tons. This is
certainly the best news for the country and the government besieged by
the surge in rice price all across the globe and the danger of food shortage.


There is no danger of food shortage.

The excellent outlook for boro also comes on the heels of bumper
wheat and potato crops. This outlook also poses important policy
opportunities and challenges for the government to reestablish our
agriculture policy on a sustainable footing, consistent with the
objectives of making Bangladesh self-sufficient in food, alleviating
social and political tensions arising from the high food prices, and
at the same time eliminating emerging fiscal imbalances.


You need to fix the problem of pumping out so many kids.

This forthcoming record rice output is the result of farmers'
whole-hearted response to the terms-of-trade (TOT) shock in favour
of rice producers and the strengthened support provided by various
government agencies. The favorable TOT shift is the most that the
farmers have experienced anytime in recent history.


The price increase of Tk 12-15 per kg of rice observed in local
markets should create additional income of Tk 21,000-26,250 crores
($3-3.75 billion) for the farmers based on the official target for boro.
Since both acres brought under boro production and the yield per
acre are projected to be higher than their targets, the actual amount
of the increase in income from boro should be significantly higher. If
we add to his boro crop an average level of production of aman and
aus, Bangladesh should expect to achieve self-sufficiency in food grain.
With total output exceeding 30 million tons, the amount of potential total
additional income for the farmers would range between Tk. 36,000-45,000
crores ($5.1-6.4 billion) or 8-10 percent of GDP in a full year.


High food prices


Looks like you had a premature ejaculation.


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