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#82
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right!
wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. |
#83
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right!
wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? I still think you'd make a better lawyer - - - |
#84
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:45:02 +0000, Let's get it right!
wrote: replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote: null wrote: Write a code change proposal. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. Petition UL to change its standards. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. A 15A circuit breaker does not protect #16 or #18 wires. Include in your petition to UL and the NEC prohibiting anything smaller than #14 wire. My desk lamp deserves a #14 cord. And include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of protection for fixture wires in 240.5-B-2. Also include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of circuit breakers for motors, and even worse, welders. And I don't even want to think about what they do with fire pumps - it could cause a fire. Everyone understands your argument. As I have explained several times, including quoted above, 110.3 (inspection) is not used for "listed" equipment. The AHJ does not second guess the listing standard. The AHJ determines the device is used according to the manufacturers instructions and conditions of listing. I am a licensed master electrician. I have explained how the NEC and UL work. Are you Pete C. in drag? U.L. isn't the problem. They are doing it right! The problem is interpretation of NEC. You can't protect a listed device that utilizes a NEMA 5-15 power cord set from a 20 ampere circuit breaker. Goggle McMaster Carr, extension cords. None are rated at more than 15-amperes @ 125 VAC. See the problem? Funny, I have both 20 and 30 amp extention cords. |
#85
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
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#86
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ TDD |
#87
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Monday, December 23, 2013 11:21:08 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:49:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to , Let's get it right! wrote: trader4 wrote: What 15 ampere label? I just looked at a cordless phone base station, a hair dryer, a Breville electric kettle, and a Brother multi-function copier/printer. All say UL listed, 120 V, 60 Hz and the amps/watts, the printer being 9.6A. No where does it say that it can't be plugged into an outlet that is on a 20 amp circuit. So, what label exactly are you referring to? If this is such a danger, then is should be easy to find a user manual for any of this common appliances that says not to plug it into a circuit that is greater than 15 amps. I've yet to see one. Surely you're not What "it" is that? There is nothing on my appliances labels or instructions that I'm ignoring. It shows they are UL listed, 120V 50/60 hz, 5 amps, 600 watts, that's all. You must be a troll. Do you not realize that 20 amp circuits with 15 amp outlets are permitted in the NEC and that they are being installed by licensed electricians in millions of houses? And passed by the electrical inspectors? And you have yet to explain the alleged fire/shock hazard that this presents compared to a simple floor lamp that uses an 18 gauge cord on a 15 amp circuit. Nonsense. There are standard ratings for circuit breakers of 100 amp too, so what? You really are confused. I just did. I'm waiting for you to show us an appliance manual for any commonly used household appliances that say that it can only be used on a 15 amp circuit. I've read many of them over decades and I don't ever recall seeing any such thing. Cite please. You missed the point. Even if the label say 0.1 amperes, it's appropriate to apply the device to a branch circuit of not more than 15-amperes, the smallest standard size breaker ... which provides the maximum protection.. Nothing was missed either by me or the others here, like CL, none of whom agree with you. Like most people, I plug most appliances, lamps, etc into whatever receptable is closest and convenient. Exceptions would be if it were a large load and then I would consider what else is on the circuit. The folks who write the NEC obviously understand that and they are OK with putting 15 amps receptacles on 20 amp circuits. If you disagree, as Bud suggested, feel free to take it up with them. And my point is that if this is in fact a safety issue, that you should not plug a 1 amp device into an outlet on a 20 amp circuit, why exactly doesn't any device manual say that? Curious thing. They have all kinds of safety warnings, but I don't ever recall one for an appliance, light, etc saying "Warning! Not to be used on a circuit with a breaker larger than 15 amps" Can he show us some examples? Goggle McMaster Carr, Three conductor indoor/outdoor extension cords. Nearly all are rated at a maximum of 10 to 15 amperes at 125 VAC. A 20-ampere circuit breaker will not protect such devices. A 15-ampere circuit breaker will. A 15 amp breaker will no more protect a 10 amp cord than a 20 will protect a 15 amp cord Right. You could overload a 10 amp cord on a 15 amp breaker by 33%. If you put a 15 amp cord on to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, you only overload it by 25%. Just because this is the way it's been done in millions of houses doesn't make it right. In fact, it supports my argument (Get it Right). You cannot legislate intelligence As Bud suggested, he should take that up with the NEC and UL who are obviously OK with it. |
#88
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. |
#89
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/24/2013 10:54 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. I seem to recall reading something about New York City not allowing any power strips whatsoever. Those ubiquitous surge arrester strips were not to be used by anyone and I found it quite puzzling. If it's true and I'm not just remembering things that aren't there, perhaps one of my Damn Yankee cousins could set me straight. ^_^ TDD |
#90
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:34:59 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 12/24/2013 10:54 AM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. I seem to recall reading something about New York City not allowing any power strips whatsoever. Those ubiquitous surge arrester strips were not to be used by anyone and I found it quite puzzling. If it's true and I'm not just remembering things that aren't there, perhaps one of my Damn Yankee cousins could set me straight. ^_^ When I was working for IBM, the normal commercial power strips were forbidden. They had some "listed" ones that were used sparingly. The strips mounted on benches were allowed, but pretty well controlled. Extension cords were strictly forbidden for anything other than a *temporary* installation. At my CPoE, I am allotted *one* duplex outlet. That has to do for not only my four computers (laptops), three monitors, and all of my lab equipment (scope, power supplies, meters, etc.). I have power strips plugged into power strips, three deep. Everyone is in the same situation and some have even more equipment in their cubes. |
#91
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/24/2013 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:34:59 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/24/2013 10:54 AM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. I seem to recall reading something about New York City not allowing any power strips whatsoever. Those ubiquitous surge arrester strips were not to be used by anyone and I found it quite puzzling. If it's true and I'm not just remembering things that aren't there, perhaps one of my Damn Yankee cousins could set me straight. ^_^ When I was working for IBM, the normal commercial power strips were forbidden. They had some "listed" ones that were used sparingly. The strips mounted on benches were allowed, but pretty well controlled. Extension cords were strictly forbidden for anything other than a *temporary* installation. At my CPoE, I am allotted *one* duplex outlet. That has to do for not only my four computers (laptops), three monitors, and all of my lab equipment (scope, power supplies, meters, etc.). I have power strips plugged into power strips, three deep. Everyone is in the same situation and some have even more equipment in their cubes. When I worked as a bench tech at a repair depot, guys were bad about pranking each other. Our benches had a master switch which controlled the power outlets on the bench. One hapless victim came in, sat down, flipped the master switch and it was as though the sun suddenly appeared for one second because some prankster had wired a bunch of 12 volt dial lights across the 120 volt supply. I was always switching the contents of freeze spray and tuner wash in the cans. I'd get an empty can for each then using my handheld vacuum pump, pull as much of a vacuum as I could on the empty can after which I simply plugged the small extension tube between the spay nozzles and depressed them. Freeze spray into the tuner wash can and tuner wash into the freeze spray can. When the victim tried to spot cool a component, he got tuner wash all over his work. Of course it evaporated in a few minutes. I wasn't so mean as to put water in a can unless I was making a super squirt gun. ^_^ TDD |
#92
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/23/2013 1:45 PM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote: null wrote: Write a code change proposal. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. Petition UL to change its standards. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. A 15A circuit breaker does not protect #16 or #18 wires. Include in your petition to UL and the NEC prohibiting anything smaller than #14 wire. My desk lamp deserves a #14 cord. And include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of protection for fixture wires in 240.5-B-2. Also include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of circuit breakers for motors, and even worse, welders. And I don't even want to think about what they do with fire pumps - it could cause a fire. Everyone understands your argument. As I have explained several times, including quoted above, 110.3 (inspection) is not used for "listed" equipment. The AHJ does not second guess the listing standard. The AHJ determines the device is used according to the manufacturers instructions and conditions of listing. I am a licensed master electrician. I have explained how the NEC and UL work. Are you Pete C. in drag? U.L. isn't the problem. They are doing it right! UL lists #18 extension cords. UL knows they know those cords will be used on 20A circuits. #18 wire in a cord is rated 10A, too low for a 15A circuit. The problem is interpretation of NEC. You can't protect a listed device that utilizes a NEMA 5-15 power cord set from a 20 ampere circuit breaker. Goggle McMaster Carr, extension cords. None are rated at more than 15-amperes @ 125 VAC. See the problem? The NEC explicitly allows home-made cord sets with #16 wire (13A) on 20A circuits. The NEC allows UL listed extension cords with 15A plugs on 15 and 20A circuits. The system is working as intended by UL and the NEC. You are "an arrogant SOB" wanting New Orleans to enforce the NEC other than how it is clearly written. If you don't like how it works write a code change proposal and petition UL to make changes in its standards. |
#93
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:44:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 12/24/2013 4:16 PM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:34:59 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/24/2013 10:54 AM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. I seem to recall reading something about New York City not allowing any power strips whatsoever. Those ubiquitous surge arrester strips were not to be used by anyone and I found it quite puzzling. If it's true and I'm not just remembering things that aren't there, perhaps one of my Damn Yankee cousins could set me straight. ^_^ When I was working for IBM, the normal commercial power strips were forbidden. They had some "listed" ones that were used sparingly. The strips mounted on benches were allowed, but pretty well controlled. Extension cords were strictly forbidden for anything other than a *temporary* installation. At my CPoE, I am allotted *one* duplex outlet. That has to do for not only my four computers (laptops), three monitors, and all of my lab equipment (scope, power supplies, meters, etc.). I have power strips plugged into power strips, three deep. Everyone is in the same situation and some have even more equipment in their cubes. When I worked as a bench tech at a repair depot, guys were bad about pranking each other. Our benches had a master switch which controlled the power outlets on the bench. One hapless victim came in, sat down, flipped the master switch and it was as though the sun suddenly appeared for one second because some prankster had wired a bunch of 12 volt dial lights across the 120 volt supply. I was always switching the contents of freeze spray and tuner wash in the cans. I'd get an empty can for each then using my handheld vacuum pump, pull as much of a vacuum as I could on the empty can after which I simply plugged the small extension tube between the spay nozzles and depressed them. Freeze spray into the tuner wash can and tuner wash into the freeze spray can. When the victim tried to spot cool a component, he got tuner wash all over his work. Of course it evaporated in a few minutes. I wasn't so mean as to put water in a can unless I was making a super squirt gun. ^_^ Forty years ago, we used to prank on each other at work, all the time. One of my coworkers was a particular target. One time I took the insulation off some coax (matching all the coax between instruments) and ran it across the bench in back of his, under the setup he was testing. When he put a cover on it to do temperature sensing, I blew smoke through the tube. One of the other guys filled the tech's pipe tobacco pouch with pencil shavings and chopped up rubber bands. What was really funny is that he didn't notice, though everyone else was running for the doors. |
#94
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/26/2013 10:02 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:44:05 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/24/2013 4:16 PM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:34:59 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/24/2013 10:54 AM, wrote: On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 01:56:32 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote: On 12/23/2013 11:20 PM, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:23:28 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! You can easily overload a listed 10 amp extension cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug even on a 15 amp breaker - You seem to be a very strong advocate for "nanny state" interference at all levels of life - the government has to protect everybody because they are too stupid to protect themselves. It's bad enough that way in Canada already. You can't legislate intelligence, and you can't outlaw stupid. And getting the government involved in "protecting the people" against everything just guarantees that "stupid" wins. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV????? This is called an "Appeal to Authority" argument (Goggle it!). No, I'm not a lawyer. However, I am a Licensed Professional Engineer. I've engineered "Listed" equipment, and designed branch circuit protection for DOD facilities. I'm not aware of any fires/shock hazards attributed to my works over the past 45-years.. However, I've determined the cause of fires of several facilities .... all due to improper branch circuit protection, and yet the "As-Built" drawing, reviewed and certified by the local regulatory agency as complying with NEC, didn't comply! If there we're accountability for improper branch circuit protection, and the resulting fires and shock hazards, this problem would be cleaned up. The forum has really exposed the ignorance and arrogance of the user's of NEC ... and at all levels. I'm prepared to support my argument in court, as I've done in the past! Would you? A good friend of mine is working on an "intelligent " power plug system that would read the power rating of the load and program the protection level of the outlet to match - but it cannot support an extention cord. How does that work? Why not just fuse the plugs, as the Brits do? Simple beats complicated all to hell. I'm sure you know that a lot of gear has a fused IEC14 inlet on the back of the case. If the equipment short circuits, the fuse blows and I would guess prevent an over current on an undamaged power cord. ^_^ Sure, but that doesn't protect the cord. It's obviously not a sufficient problem to get the NFPA's interest. I seem to recall reading something about New York City not allowing any power strips whatsoever. Those ubiquitous surge arrester strips were not to be used by anyone and I found it quite puzzling. If it's true and I'm not just remembering things that aren't there, perhaps one of my Damn Yankee cousins could set me straight. ^_^ When I was working for IBM, the normal commercial power strips were forbidden. They had some "listed" ones that were used sparingly. The strips mounted on benches were allowed, but pretty well controlled. Extension cords were strictly forbidden for anything other than a *temporary* installation. At my CPoE, I am allotted *one* duplex outlet. That has to do for not only my four computers (laptops), three monitors, and all of my lab equipment (scope, power supplies, meters, etc.). I have power strips plugged into power strips, three deep. Everyone is in the same situation and some have even more equipment in their cubes. When I worked as a bench tech at a repair depot, guys were bad about pranking each other. Our benches had a master switch which controlled the power outlets on the bench. One hapless victim came in, sat down, flipped the master switch and it was as though the sun suddenly appeared for one second because some prankster had wired a bunch of 12 volt dial lights across the 120 volt supply. I was always switching the contents of freeze spray and tuner wash in the cans. I'd get an empty can for each then using my handheld vacuum pump, pull as much of a vacuum as I could on the empty can after which I simply plugged the small extension tube between the spay nozzles and depressed them. Freeze spray into the tuner wash can and tuner wash into the freeze spray can. When the victim tried to spot cool a component, he got tuner wash all over his work. Of course it evaporated in a few minutes. I wasn't so mean as to put water in a can unless I was making a super squirt gun. ^_^ Forty years ago, we used to prank on each other at work, all the time. One of my coworkers was a particular target. One time I took the insulation off some coax (matching all the coax between instruments) and ran it across the bench in back of his, under the setup he was testing. When he put a cover on it to do temperature sensing, I blew smoke through the tube. One of the other guys filled the tech's pipe tobacco pouch with pencil shavings and chopped up rubber bands. What was really funny is that he didn't notice, though everyone else was running for the doors. I only prank those I like and and my pranks are never destructive of property, unless I supplied the item to be destroyed. I don't prank those people I don't like because I'm afraid I might become malicious and I don't like to hurt people, even nasty people. I believe in Karma and what goes around comes around. I've seen so many ambulatory turds eventually get their butts nailed to the wall and it's well deserved. ^_^ TDD |
#95
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote:
clare wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:49:02 +0000, Let's get it right! A 15 amp breaker will no more protect a 10 amp cord than a 20 will protect a 15 amp cord You cannot legislate intelligence Intelligence? You realize a 15-ampere circuit breaker provides more protection than a 20-ampere circuit breaker? You are aware of that ... aren't you? As far as the ampacity of the conductors, it has nothing to do with the problem ... as long as it's been evaluated as part of the "Listing" effort. So ... you gonna do it like the NEC requires, or or you gonna ignore the responsibilities imposed upon you by NEC? Have a save 2014! I'm done trying to educate the "EXPERTS"(?). -- |
#96
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/13/2013 9:44 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:
Which raises an interesting fact. Most homes and office buildings I've inspected have 20 ampere circuit breakers providing branch circuit protection to wall outlets, switch, listed cord and direct connected equipment. If the listed cord connected equipment utilizes a NEMA 5-15 plug, it's not protected, and because it cannot be applied to such branch circuit protection and still be considered "PROTECTED". Your theory is that every device plugged into a circuit with a 20A breaker must have wiring that can handle 20A in case the device malfunctions and draws the full 20A. It's an interesting theory though you're wrong of course. The breaker protects the internal building wiring, not each individual cord or device plugged into that wiring, each of which draws less than the total available current. The cord or device needs its own protection. For example, at my daughter's dorm the rule is that power strips must have their own circuit breakers. She complied with this, but most cheap power strips don't have circuit breakers and the university never checks up on this. If an unprotected device with wire that was rated for 15A had a short that caused a high current through the wiring then the 20A circuit breaker would still trip long before the wire caught fire. |
#97
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:45:01 +0000, Let's get it right!
wrote: replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:49:02 +0000, Let's get it right! A 15 amp breaker will no more protect a 10 amp cord than a 20 will protect a 15 amp cord You cannot legislate intelligence Intelligence? You realize a 15-ampere circuit breaker provides more protection than a 20-ampere circuit breaker? You are aware of that ... aren't you? As far as the ampacity of the conductors, it has nothing to do with the problem ... as long as it's been evaluated as part of the "Listing" effort. So ... you gonna do it like the NEC requires, or or you gonna ignore the responsibilities imposed upon you by NEC? Have a save 2014! I'm done trying to educate the "EXPERTS"(?). OK You cannot legislate COMMON SENSE. No matter what nanny-state laws are put in place, stupid people will continue to kill themselves and burn down their homes. When you get close to Idiot Proof, they just come up with a better idiot. If you never put more load on a cord than it was designed for AND maintain the cord properly, using it for the purpose it was made for, you won't have a problem. If, on the other hand, you require 5 amp devices ONLY be plugged into circuits that are protected to 5 amps, and 15 amp devices only be connected to 15 amp protected circuits, you will need EVERY outlet separately protected, and you will need numerous different outlets in all locations so you can plug everything into an outlet that is protected to the rating of the device, or you will require every device to have it's own user resettable overcurrent protection in the plug - which is how it has been done in some european countries (where, by the way, the building wiring is not nearly as well "protected" as it is in North America. Ring wiring topology is a real bugger to adequately protect as it is fed from both ends. So have a happy new year, and I'mm GLAD you are done trying to educate experts. That way I don't need to add you to my filter. |
#98
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
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#99
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On 12/30/2013 10:27 PM, sms wrote:
On 12/30/2013 4:50 PM, wrote: snip So have a happy new year, and I'mm GLAD you are done trying to educate experts. That way I don't need to add you to my filter. He's a troll. The whole "Let's get it right!" schtick when he's knowingly posting incorrect information should have been your first clue. That was my summation. PLONKED and moved on. Either that or he is an incompetent idiot. |
#100
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:45:02 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote: null wrote: Write a code change proposal. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. Petition UL to change its standards. I am confident you will receive the appropriate consideration. A 15A circuit breaker does not protect #16 or #18 wires. Include in your petition to UL and the NEC prohibiting anything smaller than #14 wire. My desk lamp deserves a #14 cord. And include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of protection for fixture wires in 240.5-B-2. Also include in your code change proposal correction for the blatant over-sizing of circuit breakers for motors, and even worse, welders. And I don't even want to think about what they do with fire pumps - it could cause a fire. Everyone understands your argument. As I have explained several times, including quoted above, 110.3 (inspection) is not used for "listed" equipment. The AHJ does not second guess the listing standard. The AHJ determines the device is used according to the manufacturers instructions and conditions of listing. I am a licensed master electrician. I have explained how the NEC and UL work. Are you Pete C. in drag? U.L. isn't the problem. They are doing it right! The problem is interpretation of NEC. You can't protect a listed device that utilizes a NEMA 5-15 power cord set from a 20 ampere circuit breaker. Goggle McMaster Carr, extension cords. None are rated at more than 15-amperes @ 125 VAC. See the problem? Funny, I have both 20 and 30 amp extention cords. Funny on store bought cords and equipment, the plugs fail either due to bad crimps, or the little wires breaking off a bit at a time. It usually starts to get hot right at the end of the molded connector. The more the cord is moved around, the worse it gets over time. Greg |
#101
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
just too add.
arc fault breakers can detect faults at under their rating limit and trip. plus even high current devices can and do have wiring rated lower than say 14 gauge fr 15 amp circuit breaker. the NEC figures whatever the wire used inside a appliance is up to the appliance manufacturer |
#102
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Monday, December 30, 2013 2:45:01 PM UTC-5, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to clare , Let's get it right! wrote: clare wrote: On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:49:02 +0000, Let's get it right! A 15 amp breaker will no more protect a 10 amp cord than a 20 will protect a 15 amp cord You cannot legislate intelligence Intelligence? You realize a 15-ampere circuit breaker provides more protection than a 20-ampere circuit breaker? You are aware of that ... aren't you? Where is your data to show that this is a real safety issue in the real world? The folks that deal with safety and have the statistics of the real safety hazards, ie NEC, UL are aware of the fact that you can have 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit. The NEC specifically allows it. As Bud suggested, if you disagree, take it up with them. I suggest you have your data available that shows this is in fact a real safety issue. There a hundreds of millions of 15 amp receptacles out there and there are plenty of 10 amp, 18 gauge ext cords available. Some of those circuits have 15 amp breakers, some 20 amp. Should be easy to show us the devesatation being caused. Statistics please. And also the statistics are going to show a clear difference between the fires, etc caused by those on a 20 vs 15, right? As far as the ampacity of the conductors, it has nothing to do with the problem ... as long as it's been evaluated as part of the "Listing" effort. Nonsense. As has been told to you a dozen times now, you can buy a 10 amp extension cord and plug it into a 15 amp receptacle on a 15 or 20 amp circuit. To say that the ampacity of the conductors has nothing to do with it is ridiculous. There are lights in my house that have 18 gauge cords, UL listed, no fuses in the lights for additional protection. The ampacity of the cords is basically the core of your safety issue. An 18 gauge, 10 amp extension cord is not rated to support 15 amps or 20 amps. You could have a partial short in one of those lights so that it draws 15 amps, exceeding the rating of the cord conductors. So ... you gonna do it like the NEC requires, or or you gonna ignore the responsibilities imposed upon you by NEC? Who is the "you" that is ignoring exactly what? At least tens of millions of homes have been built with 15 amp receptacles on 20 amp breakers, as allowed by the NEC. They have been inspected. More of those will be installed, inspected and pass electrical inspection this week. Have a save 2014! I'm done trying to educate the "EXPERTS"(?). As Bud said, take it up with the NEC folks and UL. They are the experts that matter and apparently they don't agree with you or this would not be permitted under the code. I'm sure they will give it the attention it deserves. |
#103
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
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#104
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
In article ,
wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:36:15 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to krw , Let's get it right! wrote: krw wrote: On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:45:08 +0000, Let's get it right! Now there's a response I completely expected; zero intelligence. You're an idiot, plain and simple (with an emphasis on "simple"). It appears you have a denial problem It appears that you're just stupid. ... and either refuse to debate the issue ... or just can't. You can't even read, so it's difficult to debate. just like a fundie...blame everyone else for their failures. your inability to debate is demonstrated on almost all of your posts, unless in your feeble mind calling someone a PLCCF or Liberal or Lefty qualifies as debate Another lefty who believes that his lies trump facts. OTOH, if you couldn't lie, you would be mute. krwless goes to the hospital with her mother to visit her Grandpa. When they get to the hospital, she runs ahead of her mother and bursts into her Grandpa's room. "Grandpa, Grandpa," she says excitedly, "as soon as my mom comes into the room, make a noise like a frog!" "What?" said her Grandpa. "Make a noise like a frog because mom said as soon as you croak, we're all going to Disney World!" |
#105
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:45:39 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:36:15 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to krw , Let's get it right! wrote: krw wrote: On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:45:08 +0000, Let's get it right! Now there's a response I completely expected; zero intelligence. You're an idiot, plain and simple (with an emphasis on "simple"). It appears you have a denial problem It appears that you're just stupid. ... and either refuse to debate the issue ... or just can't. You can't even read, so it's difficult to debate. just like a fundie...blame everyone else for their failures. your inability to debate is demonstrated on almost all of your posts, unless in your feeble mind calling someone a PLCCF or Liberal or Lefty qualifies as debate Another lefty who believes that his lies trump facts. OTOH, if you couldn't lie, you would be mute. The idiot liar takes a month to come up with some lame lie that no one will ever read. Malformed is such a dumbass. But that goes without saying because he is a lefty snot-nosed kid living under mommy's skirts. |
#106
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
In article ,
wrote: On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:45:39 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:36:15 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to krw , Let's get it right! wrote: krw wrote: On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:45:08 +0000, Let's get it right! Now there's a response I completely expected; zero intelligence. You're an idiot, plain and simple (with an emphasis on "simple"). It appears you have a denial problem It appears that you're just stupid. ... and either refuse to debate the issue ... or just can't. You can't even read, so it's difficult to debate. just like a fundie...blame everyone else for their failures. your inability to debate is demonstrated on almost all of your posts, unless in your feeble mind calling someone a PLCCF or Liberal or Lefty qualifies as debate Another lefty who believes that his lies trump facts. OTOH, if you couldn't lie, you would be mute. The idiot liar takes a month to come up with some lame lie that no one will ever read. I do accept your excellence in your ability to lie daily Malformed is such a dumbass. But that goes without saying because he is a lefty snot-nosed kid living under mommy's skirts. thank you for admitting that you are a no one |
#107
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Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center
On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 11:44:14 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote: In article , wrote: On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:45:39 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 14:36:15 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds" wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:44:01 +0000, Let's get it right! wrote: replying to krw , Let's get it right! wrote: krw wrote: On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:45:08 +0000, Let's get it right! Now there's a response I completely expected; zero intelligence. You're an idiot, plain and simple (with an emphasis on "simple"). It appears you have a denial problem It appears that you're just stupid. ... and either refuse to debate the issue ... or just can't. You can't even read, so it's difficult to debate. just like a fundie...blame everyone else for their failures. your inability to debate is demonstrated on almost all of your posts, unless in your feeble mind calling someone a PLCCF or Liberal or Lefty qualifies as debate Another lefty who believes that his lies trump facts. OTOH, if you couldn't lie, you would be mute. The idiot liar takes a month to come up with some lame lie that no one will ever read. I do accept your excellence in your ability to lie daily It really is amazing that you so pathological that you are compelled to make such obvious lies. Malformed is such a dumbass. But that goes without saying because he is a lefty snot-nosed kid living under mommy's skirts. thank you for admitting that you are a no one I've never claimed to be anyone special, Malformed. I leave that up to you idiot lefties. *YOU* are the ones who think they know what's good for everyone else. *YOU* are "special" (as in education). |
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