My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in our
soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with unbiased facts
on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a quartz
camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the best.
Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we are
not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?


thanks


steve barker

"S. Barker" wrote in
:

My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop
in our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with
unbiased facts on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite
camp, and a quartz camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or
install is the best. Here are some facts that should affect our
decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not
buy something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard
way. These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable
chopping, cast iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally
setting hot pans on the counter. (she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and
we are not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?


thanks


steve barker




there's also CONCRETE coutertops now.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

With the danger of hot pots accidentally put on the countertop, that would
rule out any of the plastic based materials such as Corian, quartz (plastic
binder), laminate, etc. This only leaves marble (stains easily, acid foods
can etch), granite or concrete, however, these materials can be brittle and
have edges chipped if banged hard enough with something solid. You have to
decide which fits your needs better without damage from your use, or modify
your use to avoid damage.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in
our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with unbiased
facts on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a
quartz camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the
best. Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we
are not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?


thanks


steve barker

S. Barker wrote:
....
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)
....

That one is probably the most telling altho I agree fully w/ EXT's
assessment.

All surfaces have advantages/disadvantages and all need some level of
care or will be damaged in some manner.

From your description, I'd probably suggest one of the man-made solids
but one that is "through and through" pattern/color. Most of these when
installed the sink cutout will be made into a board that can be used as
a set-down surface w/o destroying the actual counter top as a freebie.

Alternatively, consider a side counter on at least one side of the stove
for specifically for the hot stuff.

I've no actual experience w/ the concrete solutions -- I suspect they're
good for the temperature problem, may have some of the same brittleness
problems as the natural stone, though, but as noted, that's a guess--if
I were to be thinking along that line I'd really want to find somebody
who's had one for a spell to see how it's working out.

We used a Corian-like product that's less expensive and have been
pleased but it needs similar care as Corian. Danae is the trade
name--there was a thread a couple months ago where I posted a link and
more details on it as one to consider.

--

According to EXT :
With the danger of hot pots accidentally put on the countertop, that would
rule out any of the plastic based materials such as Corian, quartz (plastic
binder), laminate, etc. This only leaves marble (stains easily, acid foods
can etch), granite or concrete, however, these materials can be brittle and
have edges chipped if banged hard enough with something solid. You have to
decide which fits your needs better without damage from your use, or modify
your use to avoid damage.

Marble, granite and concrete will all stain, because they're porous.
Good (and reapplied when necessary) sealers can help a lot. But of
course, the sealer can be damaged/discolored by hot pots. Eg:
epoxy sealers...

My understanding is that quartz (eg: Silestone) is much less subject
to burning (than, say, Corian or laminate) because they use phenolic resins,
which resist higher temperatures than other epoxy-like binders (epoxy
or polyester). I believe quartz can be repaired, and it can be sanded
like any other solid surface material.

I've seen corian stain. It's ugly (a result of unrepaired
scratches), and requires quite a bit of work to fix. I have
a hunk of 1/2" corian used as a cutting board for hobby (not
food) work. From that experience, it's too damn soft for a
kitchen counter - but it's nice for cutting - doesn't destroy
the blade edge, easier to clean than wood and flatter than a
polyethlyene cutting board. I'd rather have laminate than
Corian in a kitchen - it's less subject to scratches, and I
wouldn't die from sticker shock if I burnt it.

[My priorities are stain-proof, cleanability and good scratch
resistance. Burn immunity is well down the list.]

There's also stainless steel, and other, er, "rocks", eg:

- soapstone
- hard tile

Soapstone is fairly soft and will dent or chip and is porous. You
can carve polar bears in it if you get bored waiting for dinner
to cook ;-)

Hard tile often has problems with staining of grout, can sometimes
be hard to clean and is very very hard. It's been known to shatter.

Stainless dents or scratches (mind you, 14ga is pretty tough, and
scratches can often be buffed out).

If cost wasn't a factor, I'd go with quartz. We don't have a problem
with hot pots, we have a problem with staining (we're lazy on the
cleanup). I'd be tempted to use a trivet or movable temporary slab
(perhaps a single granite tile with a couple of felts under it) for
burn risk. If you wreck the tile, just replace it.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to dpb :
I've no actual experience w/ the concrete solutions -- I suspect they're
good for the temperature problem, may have some of the same brittleness
problems as the natural stone, though, but as noted, that's a guess--if
I were to be thinking along that line I'd really want to find somebody
who's had one for a spell to see how it's working out.

From what I've been able to garner, concrete (when done properly,
including reinforcing mesh and/or fiber and properly supported) is
_very_ hard and tough, and probably less subject to crack/chip
than most (all?) other natural stone. Other than that, it's subject
to much the same things that marble is (porousity, acid staining etc),
requiring good sealers.

At least acid damage on unsealed concrete will be less than on unsealed
marble.

It's also _heavy_ (because the slabs are usually cast much thicker
than stone is sliced), so you may need quite a bit of hired
muscle to get it installed.

Concrete has the potential to be much cheaper than virtually
anything else - especially if you DIY. With the books and
supplies that are now available, it's less of a risk to DIY
than it once was.

Making "faux slate" drop-in tub surround tiles out of concrete is on
my todo list as an experiment.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to dpb :
I've no actual experience w/ the concrete solutions -- I suspect they're
good for the temperature problem, may have some of the same brittleness
problems as the natural stone, though, but as noted, that's a guess--if
I were to be thinking along that line I'd really want to find somebody
who's had one for a spell to see how it's working out.

From what I've been able to garner, concrete (when done properly,
including reinforcing mesh and/or fiber and properly supported) is
_very_ hard and tough, and probably less subject to crack/chip
than most (all?) other natural stone. Other than that, it's subject
to much the same things that marble is (porousity, acid staining etc),
requiring good sealers.

At least acid damage on unsealed concrete will be less than on unsealed
marble.

It's also _heavy_ (because the slabs are usually cast much thicker
than stone is sliced), so you may need quite a bit of hired
muscle to get it installed.

Concrete has the potential to be much cheaper than virtually
anything else - especially if you DIY. With the books and
supplies that are now available, it's less of a risk to DIY
than it once was.

Making "faux slate" drop-in tub surround tiles out of concrete is on
my todo list as an experiment.

i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be sealed
because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off, but if you make
it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. i made
them in smaller pieces, and used glued in glass strips as slab dividers.

it was very cheap, compared to other materials, to diy.

regards,
charlie
http://glassartists.org/ChaniArts

Well the granite clearly has problems with hot pots and losing it seal, and
bacteria. Etc. I can only assume (i know, i know) that concrete has
similar problems with the hot pots breaking the seal.

thanks for the reply

steve


"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...
With the danger of hot pots accidentally put on the countertop, that would
rule out any of the plastic based materials such as Corian, quartz
(plastic binder), laminate, etc. This only leaves marble (stains easily,
acid foods can etch), granite or concrete, however, these materials can be
brittle and have edges chipped if banged hard enough with something solid.
You have to decide which fits your needs better without damage from your
use, or modify your use to avoid damage.

charlie wrote:
....
i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be sealed
because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off, but if you make
it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. ...

That would take a tremendous amount of drawer space out of a kitchen if
the counter top were that thick -- essentially, no top drawer at all
where that counter is it would seem???

At 4", I'd agree they'd be hard to chip, but better have a serious
counter to support 'em...

I see the advantage of cheaper materials and some of the pictures in
things like FHB look pretty good at least in the pitchurs...

--

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Well the granite clearly has problems with hot pots and losing it seal,
and bacteria. Etc. I can only assume (i know, i know) that concrete has
similar problems with the hot pots breaking the seal.

thanks for the reply

steve


"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...
With the danger of hot pots accidentally put on the countertop, that
would rule out any of the plastic based materials such as Corian, quartz
(plastic binder), laminate, etc. This only leaves marble (stains easily,
acid foods can etch), granite or concrete, however, these materials can
be brittle and have edges chipped if banged hard enough with something
solid. You have to decide which fits your needs better without damage
from your use, or modify your use to avoid damage.



that is not correct. heat won't affect the sealer whether it's on concrete
or granite.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
charlie wrote:
...
i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be sealed
because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off, but if you
make it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. ...

That would take a tremendous amount of drawer space out of a kitchen if
the counter top were that thick -- essentially, no top drawer at all where
that counter is it would seem???

huh? why? so my counters are thicker than normal. a normal substrate for
tile is a couple inches anyway, so it's only about 1"-1.5" thicker.

At 4", I'd agree they'd be hard to chip, but better have a serious counter
to support 'em...

normal particle board cabinets can hold them (at least until they get wet
. i have a 120g fish tank with 1/2" plywood vertical members for the
stand. it weighs upwards of 1200lbs on a much smaller footprint than a
kitchen countertop.

I see the advantage of cheaper materials and some of the pictures in
things like FHB look pretty good at least in the pitchurs...

--

clipped


If I had to pick a kitchen that had to last in hard use for twenty years,
I'd go granite, and hope that I got a good slab. Go with "busy" patterns so
that if it's dirty or stained, you can't find it. Ours is mixed greys,
rust, reddish hues, etc. It matches with just about anything.

YMMV

HTH

Steve




I always thought that something that doesn't show dirt is ideal, until
we got our new kitchen.
We have laminate that is a pebbly brown-beige-cream-rust design, and it
is impossible to tell
if there are crumbs or spaghetti sauce on it )

My ideal kitchen would have an island with butcher block for chopping
stuff and with a
hole to drop scraps into the trash - I might even want a small sink and
faucet there for
cleaning and chopping veggies. A marble slab for rolling out cookies
and pastry.
Formica on the rest. I drop too much stuff to want to worry about
chipping granite.
Corian too soft for me. Get a cooktop large enough to park hot pots
without having
to shift them to a counter or find a pad. What kind of cooktop are you
planning?

"charlie" wrote in
:


"dpb" wrote in message ...
charlie wrote:
...
i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be
sealed because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off,
but if you make it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to
chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself.
...

That would take a tremendous amount of drawer space out of a kitchen
if the counter top were that thick -- essentially, no top drawer at
all where that counter is it would seem???

huh? why? so my counters are thicker than normal. a normal substrate
for tile is a couple inches anyway, so it's only about 1"-1.5"
thicker.

At 4", I'd agree they'd be hard to chip, but better have a serious
counter to support 'em...

normal particle board cabinets can hold them (at least until they get
wet
. i have a 120g fish tank with 1/2" plywood vertical members for the
stand. it weighs upwards of 1200lbs on a much smaller footprint than a
kitchen countertop.

I see the advantage of cheaper materials and some of the pictures in
things like FHB look pretty good at least in the pitchurs...

--




I had thought concrete countertops were only around 2" thick.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Mar 24, 11:07*am, "S. Barker" wrote:
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in our
soon to be remodeled kitchen. *She can't seem to come up with unbiased facts
on the internet. *There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a quartz
camp. *All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the best.
Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. *We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. *We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. *(she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. *Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we are
not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?

thanks

steve barker

Granite is durable, takes hot pots, knives, and looks great especialy
with ceiling can lights shining down. I have a dark brown granite and
it shows no stains even with coffee sitting on it all week. Corian is
plastic and looks like plastic compared to the natural beauty of
granite.

Jim Yanik wrote:
....
I had thought concrete countertops were only around 2" thick.

I've not much (actually none) other than looking at the articles in FHB,
etc., ... They surely don't look like much more than that there...

--

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in
our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with unbiased
facts on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a
quartz camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the
best. Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we
are not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?


thanks


steve barker

The answer is yes, no, definitely, and maybe.

I have done two house remodels and one new residence in the last five years.
In one, we put granite, and you can only damage it with a hammer. In the
others, we put a laminate, but can't tell you the name of it. Looks like
granite, and looks good.

Point is, whatever you use has negatives. It depends on what you want to
spend, and how you use it. I like granite, but that's because I got a very
good piece of rock for the one kitchen we did in granite, and had I gotten
something that stained easily, I might not think this way. I got a guy that
knew what he was doing, and we had a 10' long section without a seam where
three others said it couldn't be done. As for the laminates and others
burning a hole in them from hot pots, please go sign up for a cooking school
if you are having this problem. Do not use the kitchen again until you have
completed the course. ;-)

I cook a lot. I love to cook. A good cook can use any equipment. A gas
stove, an electric. Good pots, bad pots. Whatever you have to work with
defines what you will cook that day. Men cooked on open fires for thousands
of years, so it must have worked. We're here as proof. Point is, that you
have your style, so design around that. If you have a bunch of doofuses in
your kitchen, you obviously need something nuclear proof. If people are
willing to use hot pads, or set aside an area and put a moveable heatproof
pad such as butcher block, or whatever fits your motif. Think ahead and
plan for your own uses. What I like and use might not fit your style.

If I had to pick a kitchen that had to last in hard use for twenty years,
I'd go granite, and hope that I got a good slab. Go with "busy" patterns so
that if it's dirty or stained, you can't find it. Ours is mixed greys,
rust, reddish hues, etc. It matches with just about anything.

YMMV

HTH

Steve

We considered tiles for about 3.2 seconds. But my wife bakes. Can't roll
out a 3' x 1.5' slab of dough on grouted tiles.

steve


"Walter R." wrote in message
...
We would not consider anything but ceramic tile. Our counters are 25 years
old, made of 4" rustic tiles with 1/4" grout. Looks superb, speaks of
quality, impervious to acids or heat, looks like new. No routine
maintenance or sealing. If a tile should ever break (due to high impact),
it can be replaced easily (unlike a granite slab). Just save a few tiles
from your installation. DIY job. If grout should ever get dirty, brush
with brass brush and reseal. Can even replace the surface of the grout.
Would not even dream of having granite or plastic counter tops.

--
Walter

"Walter R." wrote in message
...
We would not consider anything but ceramic tile. Our counters are 25 years
old, made of 4" rustic tiles with 1/4" grout. Looks superb, speaks of
quality, impervious to acids or heat, looks like new. No routine
maintenance or sealing. If a tile should ever break (due to high impact),
it can be replaced easily (unlike a granite slab). Just save a few tiles
from your installation. DIY job. If grout should ever get dirty, brush
with brass brush and reseal. Can even replace the surface of the grout.
Would not even dream of having granite or plastic counter tops.

--
Walter

And I am just the opposite. I have and love granite. I ripped out a tiled
kitchen and put laminate. Whatever floats your boat, and suits your uses.
One size does not fit all, and there is no BEST of anything. Each person is
the one who will have to look at it every day for the next twenty years.

Steve

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:21:36 -0700, "Walter R."
wrote:

We would not consider anything but ceramic tile. Our counters are 25 years
old, made of 4" rustic tiles with 1/4" grout. Looks superb, speaks of
quality, impervious to acids or heat, looks like new. No routine maintenance
or sealing. If a tile should ever break (due to high impact), it can be
replaced easily (unlike a granite slab). Just save a few tiles from your
installation. DIY job. If grout should ever get dirty, brush with brass
brush and reseal. Can even replace the surface of the grout. Would not even
dream of having granite or plastic counter tops.

I've had three homes with ceramic tile counter tops. My residence was
never a problem. It looked as good after 10 years as the day we bought
the house. Always cleaned and cared for.

Not the same story for two rental properties. They both had tile
counter tops.

I worked once on another tile counter top. The real problem was that
the bull nose tile for the edge could not be matched in one case by
the side profile. All over town, couldn't find the few tiles I needed.
Out of this mess, a person in the same building was replacing his tile
counter top in the bath. We paid him a dollar a piece for the bull
nose when needed. )

Often tile types are discontinued and sold at auction to smaller tile
companies.

On Mar 24, 9:07*am, "S. Barker" wrote:
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in our
soon to be remodeled kitchen. *She can't seem to come up with unbiased facts
on the internet. *There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a quartz
camp. *All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the best.
Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. *We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. *We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. *(she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. *Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we are
not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?

thanks

steve barker

Testing tends to rank quartz (like Silestone) contertops on top, and I
tend to agree.

Quartz does not stain. Test it yourself, as they let you take home
samples for free. Granite can stain especially if you leave a drop of
oil or peanut butter in spot unnoticed for a great length of time.
We've had a number of "help, my granite is stained" posts here. Once
granite is stained, there's not a lot you can do.

Quartz, like granite can take an accidently placed hot pan. Again,
test it yourself. You can build small matchstick fires or leave a
smoking hot cast iron pan on quartz with no damage. Both quartz and
granite have a slight possibility of cracking from thermal shock, but
it's not a big risk (but don't get in the habit of misplacing a 700
degree pan). Only a metal countertop will perform better here, but
metal scratches easily, and is spendy.

Quartz is very hard. It's like granite without granite's softer
components that make it porous and cause it to require periodic
sealing. Both will have great longevity against scratches.

Quartz has a higher bending strength for bigger overhangs, and quartz
has no microcracks or chips that might be a source for breakage either
during fab or use, like granite does. Quartz' lack of pores makes it
virtually impervious to molds, mildew, bacteria, fungus.

The only advantage granite has over quartz is natural grain flow
beauty, but then again, that can be a liability when trying to make
seams disappear.

Other random thoughts: Concrete is WAY too prone to cracks and chips
for countertop use. Marble is too prone to acids and stains. Tile
tops are cheap but a joke. Everyone I've known that had them loathed
them (grout, mildew, not smooth, hard to clean). No matter what
countertop you get, you have to use cutting boards to save your knives
from being dulled from hard materials and from possibly damaging
counters just from high force divided by small area of the knife
edge.

One test you may want to do that I never got around to is taking equal
sized samples of quartz and granite, and just bang them with a hammer
a few dozen times with increasing force to see what happens (with eye
protection, of course)

Anyway, don't take my word for it. Get samples of quartz and put it
thought the wringer. Right now, Silestone has the nicest looking
patterns, but then you're stuck with Home Despot and 100% payment in
full before work begins.

A round-up of various counter top surfaces that includes some unusual
ones:

http://www.scrapbookscrapbook.com/DA...untertops.html

charlie wrote:
....
at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. i made
them in smaller pieces, and used glued in glass strips as slab dividers.
....

Ah, I was going to ask how you joined pieces but I gather from this
they're not actually joined but have a deliberate joint w/ a decorative
feature -- kewl! I'd probably have tried to figure out how I was going
to polish and edge well enough to mate a la Corian, etc.

--

Thanks Mike for a very informative reply.

steve


"mike" wrote in message
...
On Mar 24, 9:07 am, "S. Barker" wrote:
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in
our
soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with unbiased
facts
on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a quartz
camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the best.
Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we are
not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?

thanks

steve barker

Testing tends to rank quartz (like Silestone) contertops on top, and I
tend to agree.

Quartz does not stain. Test it yourself, as they let you take home
samples for free. Granite can stain especially if you leave a drop of
oil or peanut butter in spot unnoticed for a great length of time.
We've had a number of "help, my granite is stained" posts here. Once
granite is stained, there's not a lot you can do.

Quartz, like granite can take an accidently placed hot pan. Again,
test it yourself. You can build small matchstick fires or leave a
smoking hot cast iron pan on quartz with no damage. Both quartz and
granite have a slight possibility of cracking from thermal shock, but
it's not a big risk (but don't get in the habit of misplacing a 700
degree pan). Only a metal countertop will perform better here, but
metal scratches easily, and is spendy.

Quartz is very hard. It's like granite without granite's softer
components that make it porous and cause it to require periodic
sealing. Both will have great longevity against scratches.

Quartz has a higher bending strength for bigger overhangs, and quartz
has no microcracks or chips that might be a source for breakage either
during fab or use, like granite does. Quartz' lack of pores makes it
virtually impervious to molds, mildew, bacteria, fungus.

The only advantage granite has over quartz is natural grain flow
beauty, but then again, that can be a liability when trying to make
seams disappear.

Other random thoughts: Concrete is WAY too prone to cracks and chips
for countertop use. Marble is too prone to acids and stains. Tile
tops are cheap but a joke. Everyone I've known that had them loathed
them (grout, mildew, not smooth, hard to clean). No matter what
countertop you get, you have to use cutting boards to save your knives
from being dulled from hard materials and from possibly damaging
counters just from high force divided by small area of the knife
edge.

One test you may want to do that I never got around to is taking equal
sized samples of quartz and granite, and just bang them with a hammer
a few dozen times with increasing force to see what happens (with eye
protection, of course)

Anyway, don't take my word for it. Get samples of quartz and put it
thought the wringer. Right now, Silestone has the nicest looking
patterns, but then you're stuck with Home Despot and 100% payment in
full before work begins.

"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to dpb :
I've no actual experience w/ the concrete solutions -- I suspect they're
good for the temperature problem, may have some of the same brittleness
problems as the natural stone, though, but as noted, that's a guess--if
I were to be thinking along that line I'd really want to find somebody
who's had one for a spell to see how it's working out.

From what I've been able to garner, concrete (when done properly,
including reinforcing mesh and/or fiber and properly supported) is
_very_ hard and tough, and probably less subject to crack/chip
than most (all?) other natural stone. Other than that, it's subject
to much the same things that marble is (porousity, acid staining etc),
requiring good sealers.

At least acid damage on unsealed concrete will be less than on unsealed
marble.

It's also _heavy_ (because the slabs are usually cast much thicker
than stone is sliced), so you may need quite a bit of hired
muscle to get it installed.

Concrete has the potential to be much cheaper than virtually
anything else - especially if you DIY. With the books and
supplies that are now available, it's less of a risk to DIY
than it once was.

Making "faux slate" drop-in tub surround tiles out of concrete is on
my todo list as an experiment.

i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be sealed
because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off, but if you make
it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. i made
them in smaller pieces, and used glued in glass strips as slab dividers.

4 inches thick!!!!!!!!! Most basement floors are only 3" thick, garage
floors hold a car with 4 inches of concrete --- what were you building, load
supporting structural concrete.

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in
our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with unbiased
facts on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a
quartz camp. All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the
best. Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. (she told me to say that)

You can't pour boiling-hot water into a Corian sink. You can if it's a
stainless sink.

"Bob M." writes:

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a
countertop in our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to
come up with unbiased facts on the internet. There is the Corian
camp, the granite camp, and a quartz camp. All seem to think what
they bought, sell, or install is the best. Here are some facts that
should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will
not buy something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard
way. These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable
chopping, cast iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally
setting hot pans on the counter. (she told me to say that)

You can't pour boiling-hot water into a Corian sink. You can if it's a
stainless sink.

Funny, I can.
Have been for years now.

I do run cold water into the sink at the same time.

Another poster said Corian scratches.
I can't imagine what you'd have to do to it to scratch it.

Can't stain it either.

I cracked ours by getting a microwave very hot
with it sitting directly on the counter in a corner.

The lifetime warranty meant free repair.
The repair is invisible.

All and all, I think it's the perfect material.

Someone was recently complaining about a dark color.
Ours is light colored.

S. Barker wrote:
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a
countertop in our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to
come up with unbiased facts on the internet. There is the Corian
camp, the granite camp, and a quartz camp. All seem to think what
they bought, sell, or install is the best. Here are some facts that
should affect our decision.

#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard
way. These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable
chopping, cast iron cookware, and an absent minded wife
occasionally setting hot pans on the counter.

Then either tile or natual stone (not marble). All the manufactured
materials - Corian, "quartz", et al - are made with minerals in a
plastic and the plastic is sensitive to heat and abrasion.

Personally, I like tile. It is relatively inexpensive, has a huge
variety of selections in color, size and style; it is impervious to
heat abd won't scratch from normal utensils...very durable against
most anything except a hammer.

People complain that the grout becomes discolored...the solution is to
use dark grout. People complain that it is hard to clean...danged if
I know why. People complain that tiled surfaces are bumpy...the
solution is to use tiles that are flat and without formed edges.


--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Chris Lewis wrote:

Soapstone is fairly soft and will dent or chip and is porous. You
can carve polar bears in it if you get bored waiting for dinner
to cook ;-)

Soapstone (talc) is certainly soft but it is NOT porous.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Bob M. wrote:

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...

My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop
in our soon to be remodeled kitchen. She can't seem to come up with
unbiased facts on the internet. There is the Corian camp, the
granite camp, and a quartz camp. All seem to think what they bought,
sell, or install is the best. Here are some facts that should affect
our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. We are not yuppies and will not
buy something just because everyone else is
#2. We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard
way. These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable
chopping, cast iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally
setting hot pans on the counter. (she told me to say that)


You can't pour boiling-hot water into a Corian sink. You can if it's a
stainless sink.

Honest?

"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...

"charlie" wrote in message
...

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to dpb :
I've no actual experience w/ the concrete solutions -- I suspect
they're
good for the temperature problem, may have some of the same brittleness
problems as the natural stone, though, but as noted, that's a guess--if
I were to be thinking along that line I'd really want to find somebody
who's had one for a spell to see how it's working out.

From what I've been able to garner, concrete (when done properly,
including reinforcing mesh and/or fiber and properly supported) is
_very_ hard and tough, and probably less subject to crack/chip
than most (all?) other natural stone. Other than that, it's subject
to much the same things that marble is (porousity, acid staining etc),
requiring good sealers.

At least acid damage on unsealed concrete will be less than on unsealed
marble.

It's also _heavy_ (because the slabs are usually cast much thicker
than stone is sliced), so you may need quite a bit of hired
muscle to get it installed.

Concrete has the potential to be much cheaper than virtually
anything else - especially if you DIY. With the books and
supplies that are now available, it's less of a risk to DIY
than it once was.

Making "faux slate" drop-in tub surround tiles out of concrete is on
my todo list as an experiment.

i've made concrete countertops. they are very hard, and have to be sealed
because they are pretty porous. a sharp edge can chip off, but if you
make it with rounded edges, it would be very difficult to chip.

at 4" thick, it was a chore to move around and install by myself. i made
them in smaller pieces, and used glued in glass strips as slab dividers.

4 inches thick!!!!!!!!! Most basement floors are only 3" thick, garage
floors hold a car with 4 inches of concrete --- what were you building,
load supporting structural concrete.

i used 1/2" tied rebar, so i didn't want that to get too close to the
surface. besides, i was insetting large chunks of polished rock in the edges
and surface.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chaniarts/2359619331/

According to charlie :

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Well the granite clearly has problems with hot pots and losing it seal,
and bacteria. Etc. I can only assume (i know, i know) that concrete has
similar problems with the hot pots breaking the seal.

that is not correct. heat won't affect the sealer whether it's on concrete
or granite.

Depends on the sealer used, how hot the pot is, and how long it's left.
Yes, the stone conducts a lot of heat away, but if you apply enough of
it for long enough, bad things can still happen.

For example, epoxy (it's mentioned as an option in a number of DIY concrete
counter books) used as a sealer will discolor and/or cloud up at 150F, and
start to do nastier things above 300F. Heck, I got epoxy to cloud up with
140F water.

Some professional counter people claim to be using sealers that are impervious
to high heat. Others don't.

It looks like some of the web sites talking about granite and hot pots are
talking about the material _without_ sealer.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to mike :

Quartz, like granite can take an accidently placed hot pan. Again,
test it yourself. You can build small matchstick fires or leave a
smoking hot cast iron pan on quartz with no damage. Both quartz and
granite have a slight possibility of cracking from thermal shock, but
it's not a big risk (but don't get in the habit of misplacing a 700
degree pan). Only a metal countertop will perform better here, but
metal scratches easily, and is spendy.

Quartz is ground stone (lots of quartz ;-) with a 10% or thereabouts
volume made up with a resin (phenolic usually I think) binding
everything together. It's a solidified slurry. I'm surprised you
could get that to thermal-crack. While phenolic will take considerably
higher heat than other plastics, I wouldn't want to place any bets
on a smoking cast iron frypan being left to cool off.

[I still agree tho, if cost is no object, quartz seems the best overall.]
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Dan Espen :

Another poster said Corian scratches.
I can't imagine what you'd have to do to it to scratch it.

Use it as a cutting board, and then you'll see. It doesn't
cut up nearly as much as a polyethylene cutting board, but it
certainly does get chewed up. It seems more prone to scratching
than laminate is.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

We have three types of countertops - granite, stainless steel and concrete.
The granite is for show and for a cool surface for pastry work. The
stainless is for the main working surfaces and on both sides of the
stovetop. Stainless scratches fairly easily bu we call it patina. After a
year and a half it still looks good. We move hot pots and pans from cooktop
onto SS counters with no damage at all. Stainless was the cheapest - we
have three SS counters and two have welded in sinks. One sink was
commercial bought and welded in so you can't see any seam at all. The other
sink is a huge custom size and made the same time as the sink. We got
marine edges on the SS countertops so minor spills don't run off the fronts
and low backboards so spills wouldn't leak down the back walls. The counter
with the custom made sink was cheap especially considering a retail sink a
bit smaller would have cost more than $400.


Concrete is a great material. It is only 1 1/2 inches thick with slightly
rounded corners. It scratches about the same as granite but we don't use it
for a working conter - it is by the bar sink island. You can get any color,
shape and options, including one-piece sinks cast at same time as counter.
We had glass beads from the dollar store put into the concrete and when the
top was ground smooth they turned into nice flat circles - added a nice
bright color touch. Our supplier came and made mylar templates on the
finished counters and then made the tops in his factory with reinforcing,
etc. Weight is not too bad with the 1 1/2 inch thickness. Works out to
similar thickness as the granite and SS.Sealing is same as for the granite.
Cost was similar to granite, a bit cheaper because you don't pay for waste
material.

Reno wrote:
We have three types of countertops - granite, stainless steel and concrete.
The granite is for show and for a cool surface for pastry work. The
stainless is for the main working surfaces and on both sides of the
stovetop. Stainless scratches fairly easily bu we call it patina. After a
year and a half it still looks good. We move hot pots and pans from cooktop
onto SS counters with no damage at all. Stainless was the cheapest - we
have three SS counters and two have welded in sinks. One sink was
commercial bought and welded in so you can't see any seam at all. The other
sink is a huge custom size and made the same time as the sink. We got
marine edges on the SS countertops so minor spills don't run off the fronts
and low backboards so spills wouldn't leak down the back walls. The counter
with the custom made sink was cheap especially considering a retail sink a
bit smaller would have cost more than $400.


Concrete is a great material. It is only 1 1/2 inches thick with slightly
rounded corners. It scratches about the same as granite but we don't use it
for a working conter - it is by the bar sink island. You can get any color,
shape and options, including one-piece sinks cast at same time as counter.
We had glass beads from the dollar store put into the concrete and when the
top was ground smooth they turned into nice flat circles - added a nice
bright color touch. Our supplier came and made mylar templates on the
finished counters and then made the tops in his factory with reinforcing,
etc. Weight is not too bad with the 1 1/2 inch thickness. Works out to
similar thickness as the granite and SS.Sealing is same as for the granite.
Cost was similar to granite, a bit cheaper because you don't pay for waste
material.

If best is wanted, crystal counter top!

(Chris Lewis) writes:

According to Dan Espen :

Another poster said Corian scratches.
I can't imagine what you'd have to do to it to scratch it.

Use it as a cutting board, and then you'll see. It doesn't
cut up nearly as much as a polyethylene cutting board, but it
certainly does get chewed up. It seems more prone to scratching
than laminate is.

I have a corian cutting board.
It does get scratches, but not real bad.

But, that's not normal use.
I don't think anything but butcher block is going to hold
up to that kind of treatment.

Dan Espen wrote in
:

I have a corian cutting board.
It does get scratches, but not real bad.

that must do wonders for your knive edges....


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik writes:

Dan Espen wrote in
:

I have a corian cutting board.
It does get scratches, but not real bad.

that must do wonders for your knive edges....

Corian says

"They are less damaging to knives..."

Yes, I believe them.

Another poster said Corian scratches.
I can't imagine what you'd have to do to it to scratch it.

Anything. It looks good, but it is soft.

On Mar 24, 11:07*am, "S. Barker" wrote:
My wife is doing research of what is a better choice for a countertop in our
soon to be remodeled kitchen. *She can't seem to come up with unbiased facts
on the internet. *There is the Corian camp, the granite camp, and a quartz
camp. *All seem to think what they bought, sell, or install is the best.
Here are some facts that should affect our decision.

#1. and probably foremost important. *We are not yuppies and will not buy
something just because everyone else is
#2. *We ACTUALLY use our kitchen and sometimes in a very haphazard way.
These activities include canning, cookie cutters, vegatable chopping, cast
iron cookware, and an absent minded wife occasionally setting hot pans on
the counter. *(she told me to say that)
#3. We have 6 grandchildren that are in our house often.
#4. *Just suffice to say the kitchen gets hard use in our family and we are
not afraid to USE it and get it dirty.

Any unbiased thoughts out there?

thanks

steve barker

All the B.S. aside, Formica and similar laminates will be around years
from now after all the yuppie fads have met the landfill. Short of
using as a chopping block, nothing much bothers it, and the $$ are
best of all. My kitchen remodel will have Formica (replacing 30 YO
stuff). I might even use faux granite just to impress the neighbors
G.

Joe