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Default Don't upset the inspector

wrote:
On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:36:47 -0500, "DanG" wrote:

(snip)

Have you talked to them and figured out what a permit entails.
Hopefully they will just double the permit fees (or whatever the
regular spanking they do) and inspect what you have but some places
(Florida in particular) will want engineered plans with raised seal
and are generally a pain in the ass if you try to draw them yourself
(I am in that quagmire as we speak)
I have just about decided to abandon the project and live with what I
have after about $500 in bureacratic bull**** without moving a shovel
of dirt. They still want "one more piece of paper" as they did in my
last 5 trips downtown.
Worst case is they will fail your foundation or something and you will
be tearing it down or doing serious remedial repairs to make them
happy. Again you may need an engineer.

Rueful chuckle. About 15 years ago, my father (a residential designer of
40-some years experience at the time) tried to set up shop in Hartford,
CT, to be near his new-at-time grandkids up the road in central MA. He
found the permitting and approval process in both CT and MA to be so
onerous, that he could not get enough work to get by, and had to move
back to Louisiana (where he had had a thriving practice) within a couple
of years. It is pretty much a guild situation around there- they wanted
AIA and/or certified engineer stamps for the most trivial of remodeling
projects. Getting something stamped basically required the customer to
pay for the work twice- once for him to do the design (which the
customers always liked- he is good at what he does)- and then again for
someone with a stamp to look over and approve his plans. Guess what
priority reviewing 'outside' designs has in most design/engineering
shops? The time delays and added costs just made the whole thing
unworkable as a business model, which was pretty clearly what the locals
wanted. Do it all Their Way, or don't do it.

He went back down to Louisiana, which is thankfully less civilized, and
now, at the age of 81 (and half blind) still has more work than he can
handle designing mansions for rich doctors.

--
aem sends...
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In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:


How much? I've scanned your message for numbers, but I've found none.

There's a reason for that, Kanter: permit fees vary widely from one place to
the next. Some places, it's a flat fee. Other places, the fee is based on the
value of the work.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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"Jerry" wrote in message
...
On Mar 15, 4:36 pm, "DanG" wrote:

It is a dammable shame that property owners cannot build their own
homes. It is happening all over the US. The insurance companies and
financial institutions have attempted to stop people from building
their own homes so people are forced to go into debt. I live in
Alaska in a borough where we can build our own homes, put in our own
wells, and septic systems. That is why I live in Alaska and suggest
the rest of you move here and help us keep the banks and insurance
companies out of our lives.
My motto is this: I had rather live in a 2 by 4 shack that I own than
live in a mansion with a mortgage.


In CA I think the only thing a home owner can not legaly do is fire
sprinklers. I have done plumbing, electrical, gas, a roof all with no
problem. All that is required is to by the permit, get the inspections and
sit back an pay the taxes when assessor gets a copy of the permit.

On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can
make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can
get a after the fact permit at double the regular price.

Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the property.
Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical
or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers insurance
company balked.

--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.


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There are those in my area who do not listen to advice nor do they follow
any rules or law. Darwin tends to get these types. I read about them in the
newspaper!
(Fatal car accident, house burns down and no insurance, arrested, etc...)


"DanG" wrote in message
A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county in a
different state. He launched into a small addition with no permit. He has
it framed and dried in. He received a letter from the county ordering him
to cease and desist. He called wondering what they can do to him if he
just keeps going.

I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was a need
for the electric company to do any work on the service, they would not
perform without permit approval. Other than that, what can they do? This
guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee,
I'm sorry approach. He's headed a bit more along the my castle, my
kingdom, damn the torpedoes approach.



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Bill wrote:

There are those in my area who do not listen to advice nor do they follow
any rules or law. Darwin tends to get these types. I read about them in the
newspaper!
(Fatal car accident, house burns down and no insurance, arrested, etc...)




But sometimes the train leaves the track, and Darwin gets the poor
sucker they sold the home to.
Or the children of.

It is still amazing how many people manage to snuff themselves with
portable heaters or generators.


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"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message

I'm asking because (as you may have guessed) I'm wondering if the cost of
non-compliance will make the cost of non-compliance look like peanuts in
comparison. I suspect it doesn't matter to the maverick in question,
though.


In our town where I work, the homeowner fee is 1% of value. The
commercial/industrial rate is 3%.


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"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message

On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can
make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can
get a after the fact permit at double the regular price.

Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the
property.
Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical
or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers
insurance
company balked.


In all the years of home ownership and working on home improvements (even
has a side line business years ago) I've never had an insurance company
visit to check on things. Never had a buyer question improvements or
permits. Only time my work was inspected was when it was a part of a major
project that was permitted and I did some of the electrical (passed, of
course). I don't know where you guys live that have all these problems, but
I'm glad not to be there.

When I worked with my stop-father in his construction business in a big
city, we always had permits for larger, very visible jobs. There was always
an envelope left someplace visible too and it was usually gone after the
inspection.


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In article , Edwin Pawlowski
says...


"Roger Shoaf" wrote in message

On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can
make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can
get a after the fact permit at double the regular price.

Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the
property.
Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical
or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers
insurance
company balked.


In all the years of home ownership and working on home improvements (even
has a side line business years ago) I've never had an insurance company
visit to check on things. Never had a buyer question improvements or
permits. Only time my work was inspected was when it was a part of a major
project that was permitted and I did some of the electrical (passed, of
course). I don't know where you guys live that have all these problems, but
I'm glad not to be there.

When I worked with my stop-father in his construction business in a big
city, we always had permits for larger, very visible jobs. There was always
an envelope left someplace visible too and it was usually gone after the
inspection.



My area seems to be more like yours. The previous owners of my house
after-the-fact permitted a three season porch that was an add-on just before
putting the house on the market (the porch itself was built a couple years
before that); the house itself and an addition were all pre-code and
grandfathered. No questions or issue with insurance or during purchase. The
earlier owners did let on that they did a lot of the electrical themselves; I
later brought in an accredited electrician for a check and some corrections.

By code, ever little thing that's remotely structural needs to be permitted; in
practice anything that can be passed off as a repair and/or does not add on to
the footprint isn't permitted many times.

Not saying it's good, but...

I dunno about those envelopes, though. :-/

Banty

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DanG wrote:
A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county
in a different state. He launched into a small addition with no
permit. He has it framed and dried in. He received a letter from
the county ordering him to cease and desist. He called wondering
what they can do to him if he just keeps going.

I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was
a need for the electric company to do any work on the service,
they would not perform without permit approval. Other than that,
what can they do? This guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained
about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee, I'm sorry approach. He's headed
a bit more along the my castle, my kingdom, damn the torpedoes
approach.


One approach I've heard used with mixed results is to meet the inspector
with a steely eye and a pistol strapped to your hip.

A cheroot helps.


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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
S. Barker writes:

ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a
permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and
expense.


Until your neighbors rat you out.


Ever been to Home Depot or Lowes? What do you think the Town Hall office
would look like the next day when everyone there is applying for a permit?

Any work done should be according to code for safety reasons, but minor
work, the town has no business getting involved.


I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot
water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a
requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as
much sense as a Snow Shovel Store.

Steve


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"SteveB" wrote in message
I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot
water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a
requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as
much sense as a Snow Shovel Store.

Steve


One problem with codes is that if one place has a particular requirement, it
must be a good idea so we need it too. Some of the jurisdictions are trying
to implement International Building Code.


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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:37:34 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"SteveB" wrote in message
I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot
water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a
requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as
much sense as a Snow Shovel Store.

Steve


One problem with codes is that if one place has a particular requirement, it
must be a good idea so we need it too. Some of the jurisdictions are trying
to implement International Building Code.


Steve is correct on the WH quake straps in NV. In '95 closing on a
house a Disclaimer was added, from CA rulings - lead in faucet
manufacturing.

I have been in my first quake ever, a small one in the Las Vegas
Valley some years ago.

The inspectors check the dates on a WH and if it has been changed
after a code, then quake straps are required.

The fancy ones look like seat belts vs an early metal galv. strap from
HD.

Watch out the left coast is coming your way



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S. Barker wrote:
ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and
inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense.

s


Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is
somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?
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"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message

Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?


I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?


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In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message

Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?


I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?


In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in
fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.
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Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?

I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?


In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in
fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.


That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read
literally, anyway.

Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course.

Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was
be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done
w/o permits?

--
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#1. been there done that with the insurance guy. No problem.

#2. not selling the house

#3. Any such questions arise like that with me and I'd just say "Like that
when we got here". Done.


s


"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
...
S. Barker wrote:
ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit
and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense.

s


Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?





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nope, me neither. Never been asked about wiring by an insurance company,
never brought up remodel particulars whilst buying a house (and we've bought
5 in the last 2 years), never any of this anal **** people spout off about.

s


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message

Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?


I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?



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bull

s

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.



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dpb wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message

Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is
somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but
didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where
the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit.
What now?

I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?



In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live
in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on.
Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the
value of a home.



That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read
literally, anyway.

Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course.

Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was
be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done
w/o permits?

--

Hmmm,
Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that
it met minimum requirement per code. I never built anything based on
minimum requirement.
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The town I lived in didn't have an inspector.

But, you still had to goto city hall,
and get a permit for any work around the house.

Had nothing to do with getting it right...
it was just "legal extortion".

rj
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Hear hear, most inspectors are professional and the work is demanding. Lots
of paperwork and dealing with people with a bad attitude is not easy. There
are strict guidlines that the inspector must follow but, if you look hard
enough you can almost always find infractions. When the people I'm dealing
with are co-operative I usually work with them to solve the problems and move
on. There is plenty of work without having to return to a site.


Tony Hwang wrote:
Eventually he did.

[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]

Did you say: We are all human after all. No one is perfect. Are you? .

Hi,
I am not. I never ran into a inhumane inspectors. They were always
helpful and kind. Also I believe in what goes round comes around.


--
Message posted via http://www.homekb.com



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In article ,
"S. Barker" wrote:

bull

s

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.


Yes, very insightful comment, my top-posting comrade. Maybe extension
cords embedded in plywood are fine where you live there in Shantytown,
Alabama, but in my world, even the real estate agents advise buyers to
stay away from non-permitted stuff.

Don't misinterpret my comments. I'm not a code-junkie, and I'm not a
permit junkie, and I have as much contempt for nonsense liability claims
as the next guy. I may not like it, but I respect the reality of our
so-called advanced civilization, with all its vagaries.

If a remodel or addition was done well and properly, the permit question
would never arise. If it's done poorly, the permit question is a huge
red flag, and absolutely reduces resale value. That's what "can" means,
and your bold proclamation of bull is, uh, bull.
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Tony Hwang wrote:
....
Hmmm,
Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that
it met minimum requirement per code. ...


hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me...

--
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"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
...
S. Barker wrote:
ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit
and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense.

s


Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?


Reality is nature's way of keeping things straight.

Steve


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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message

Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?


I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?


I have. But I am not answering for Mike.

Steve


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It's not just how things look either. My inspector made some what of a deal
out of the fact that i didn't have anchor bolts on my sill plate within 6"
of the end of the boards. BUT, they never even questioned as to how or if
the floor joists were fastened to said sill plate. HMMMMMMM..... go
figure.


It's just stuff like that, that make you see how much of a joke the whole
code thing is.


s


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:48:10 -0500, dpb wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:
...
Hmmm,
Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that
it met minimum requirement per code. ...


hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me...


Not if fit and finish mean anything to you. You can meet code and have
a very ugly job.



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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
:


"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message
. ..
S. Barker writes:

ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a
permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and
expense.


Until your neighbors rat you out.


Ever been to Home Depot or Lowes? What do you think the Town Hall
office would look like the next day when everyone there is applying
for a permit?


Cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$,
cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$,
cha-ching$.


Any work done should be according to code for safety reasons, but
minor work, the town has no business getting involved.



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"Smitty Two" wrote in message
In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in
fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.


How does on "look" permitted?


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"RJ" wrote in message
...
The town I lived in didn't have an inspector.

But, you still had to goto city hall,
and get a permit for any work around the house.

Had nothing to do with getting it right...
it was just "legal extortion".

rj


Extortion is extortion. You pay the money or you suffer the consequences.
It's a very simple concept.

Steve


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wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:48:10 -0500, dpb wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:
...
Hmmm,
Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that
it met minimum requirement per code. ...


hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me...


Not if fit and finish mean anything to you. You can meet code and have
a very ugly job.


Yes, but your sewer pipe will have a downhill grade, the electrical will be
safe, and your walls will support a snow load.

After that, it's up to the individual to select people who will give them
what they want aesthetically. Settling for less in fit and finish has
nothing to do with "codes".

Steve




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In article , dpb wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Mike Paulsen" wrote in message
Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow
related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't.

When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the
seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now?
I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you?


In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in
fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.


That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read
literally, anyway.

Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course.

Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was
be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done
w/o permits?


Two most common remodels around here are "garage conversions" in which
the garage has been converted to a bedroom, family room, or even studio
apt., and back patios enclosed to become a "bonus room."

I do not know what the law requires as far as disclosures, but most
listings will mention whether the work was or was not permitted. In the
case of bank-owned properties (abundant now) the standard disclaimer
applies: "Buyer to satisfy himself whether bonus room was constructed
with permit or not." The fact that these declarations are so common
leads me to believe they are required.

I've seen several houses where the owner claimed ignorance, and I've
seen several where he claimed permit. A declaration of ignorance,
roughly translated, means "there isn't a fat chance in hell this was
permitted," in *my* mind.
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Default Don't upset the inspector

Smitty Two wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:

....
Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was
be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done
w/o permits?

....
I do not know what the law requires as far as disclosures, but most
listings will mention whether the work was or was not permitted. In the
case of bank-owned properties (abundant now) the standard disclaimer
applies: "Buyer to satisfy himself whether bonus room was constructed
with permit or not." The fact that these declarations are so common
leads me to believe they are required.

....

I've not done anything for several years now, so maybe things have
changed, but I'd never run into that. I will say I've never seen at
least in the free "pick-em-up" MLS listings anything like it even
recently (was thumbing thru one at the coffee shop the other morning
during the general old guy morning klatch)...

Must be something local to your area...

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Default Don't upset the inspector

In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that
had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in
fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted
"improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home.


How does on "look" permitted?


By not looking like a cob job. While it's theoretically true that
there's no automatic correlation between quality of workmanship and the
issuance of a permit, *most* homeowners don't have the skill to do
"transparent" additions. They look like lean-tos, with shoddy
construction built on inadequate foundations.

OTOH, I saw a beautiful 1930 remodel the other day, clearly professional
throughout, obviously not a 1930's floorplan. Nevertheless I was
surprised to learn that the front of the house had had several hundred
square feet added to it. Clearly the work of a good architect coupled
with a "damn the expense" attitude towards quality of materials and
workmanship.

I know there are places where regulations are more lax, and the people
are less litigious. But, in *this* city, you can't throw a bent nail in
the trash without arousing a building inspector, and in *this* state, if
my tenant stubbed a toe in an unpermitted room, I'd be in court
answering "willful and negligent" charges.
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Default Don't upset the inspector

In the towns where I have lived, permits serve two purposes: First,
they, if done right, insure that safety and building code provisions are
met; Second, they alert the city to possible improvements in the
property, which can result in an increase in property tax.

So if the tax rolls show the property I'm looking at has three bedrooms
and no air conditioning, but my visit shows five bedrooms and central
air, that is an indication of unpermitted work, which will, at least,
increase the property tax when discovered. But more dire is that if I
do such work, or buy property on which it has been done, and there is a
problem with the wiring, for example, that leads to a fire, my insurance
company is going to check to see if the work was permitted, and deny
coverage if it was not.

Around here, if a homeowner has been cited for doing unpermitted work,
the government can demand that he remove it, or at least dismantle it
enough that they can do an inspection. I imagine that if the owner
stands by running his mouth, the inspection can be very thorough. If he
refuses, they pull the occupancy permit, and you have a house no one,
including yourself, can legally occupy. From there, you will probably
get to deal with a called mortgage, and possible jail time. And trying
to sell property with an unoccupiable house on it should be interesting;
he'll probably have to pay the buyer to take it off his hands.

DanG wrote:
A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county
in a different state. He launched into a small addition with no
permit. He has it framed and dried in. He received a letter from
the county ordering him to cease and desist. He called wondering
what they can do to him if he just keeps going.

I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was
a need for the electric company to do any work on the service,
they would not perform without permit approval. Other than that,
what can they do? This guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained
about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee, I'm sorry approach. He's headed
a bit more along the my castle, my kingdom, damn the torpedoes
approach.

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