Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
![]() |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#41
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() |
#42
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article , "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
How much? I've scanned your message for numbers, but I've found none. There's a reason for that, Kanter: permit fees vary widely from one place to the next. Some places, it's a flat fee. Other places, the fee is based on the value of the work. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#43
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Jerry" wrote in message ... On Mar 15, 4:36 pm, "DanG" wrote: It is a dammable shame that property owners cannot build their own homes. It is happening all over the US. The insurance companies and financial institutions have attempted to stop people from building their own homes so people are forced to go into debt. I live in Alaska in a borough where we can build our own homes, put in our own wells, and septic systems. That is why I live in Alaska and suggest the rest of you move here and help us keep the banks and insurance companies out of our lives. My motto is this: I had rather live in a 2 by 4 shack that I own than live in a mansion with a mortgage. In CA I think the only thing a home owner can not legaly do is fire sprinklers. I have done plumbing, electrical, gas, a roof all with no problem. All that is required is to by the permit, get the inspections and sit back an pay the taxes when assessor gets a copy of the permit. On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can get a after the fact permit at double the regular price. Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the property. Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers insurance company balked. -- Roger Shoaf If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent. |
#44
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
There are those in my area who do not listen to advice nor do they follow
any rules or law. Darwin tends to get these types. I read about them in the newspaper! (Fatal car accident, house burns down and no insurance, arrested, etc...) "DanG" wrote in message A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county in a different state. He launched into a small addition with no permit. He has it framed and dried in. He received a letter from the county ordering him to cease and desist. He called wondering what they can do to him if he just keeps going. I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was a need for the electric company to do any work on the service, they would not perform without permit approval. Other than that, what can they do? This guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee, I'm sorry approach. He's headed a bit more along the my castle, my kingdom, damn the torpedoes approach. |
#45
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Bill wrote:
There are those in my area who do not listen to advice nor do they follow any rules or law. Darwin tends to get these types. I read about them in the newspaper! (Fatal car accident, house burns down and no insurance, arrested, etc...) But sometimes the train leaves the track, and Darwin gets the poor sucker they sold the home to. Or the children of. It is still amazing how many people manage to snuff themselves with portable heaters or generators. |
#46
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() |
#47
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message I'm asking because (as you may have guessed) I'm wondering if the cost of non-compliance will make the cost of non-compliance look like peanuts in comparison. I suspect it doesn't matter to the maverick in question, though. In our town where I work, the homeowner fee is 1% of value. The commercial/industrial rate is 3%. |
#48
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Roger Shoaf" wrote in message On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can get a after the fact permit at double the regular price. Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the property. Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers insurance company balked. In all the years of home ownership and working on home improvements (even has a side line business years ago) I've never had an insurance company visit to check on things. Never had a buyer question improvements or permits. Only time my work was inspected was when it was a part of a major project that was permitted and I did some of the electrical (passed, of course). I don't know where you guys live that have all these problems, but I'm glad not to be there. When I worked with my stop-father in his construction business in a big city, we always had permits for larger, very visible jobs. There was always an envelope left someplace visible too and it was usually gone after the inspection. |
#51
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article , Edwin Pawlowski
says... "Roger Shoaf" wrote in message On the other hand if one decides to cheat and go without a permt, they can make you restore the property to the original state, or sometimes you can get a after the fact permit at double the regular price. Having unpermitted work also requires disclosure when you sell the property. Probably not a big deal if you added a non bearing wall without electrical or plumbing, but otherwise this could queer the deal if the buyers insurance company balked. In all the years of home ownership and working on home improvements (even has a side line business years ago) I've never had an insurance company visit to check on things. Never had a buyer question improvements or permits. Only time my work was inspected was when it was a part of a major project that was permitted and I did some of the electrical (passed, of course). I don't know where you guys live that have all these problems, but I'm glad not to be there. When I worked with my stop-father in his construction business in a big city, we always had permits for larger, very visible jobs. There was always an envelope left someplace visible too and it was usually gone after the inspection. My area seems to be more like yours. The previous owners of my house after-the-fact permitted a three season porch that was an add-on just before putting the house on the market (the porch itself was built a couple years before that); the house itself and an addition were all pre-code and grandfathered. No questions or issue with insurance or during purchase. The earlier owners did let on that they did a lot of the electrical themselves; I later brought in an accredited electrician for a check and some corrections. By code, ever little thing that's remotely structural needs to be permitted; in practice anything that can be passed off as a repair and/or does not add on to the footprint isn't permitted many times. Not saying it's good, but... I dunno about those envelopes, though. :-/ Banty |
#52
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
DanG wrote:
A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county in a different state. He launched into a small addition with no permit. He has it framed and dried in. He received a letter from the county ordering him to cease and desist. He called wondering what they can do to him if he just keeps going. I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was a need for the electric company to do any work on the service, they would not perform without permit approval. Other than that, what can they do? This guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee, I'm sorry approach. He's headed a bit more along the my castle, my kingdom, damn the torpedoes approach. One approach I've heard used with mixed results is to meet the inspector with a steely eye and a pistol strapped to your hip. A cheroot helps. |
#53
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message ... "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. S. Barker writes: ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense. Until your neighbors rat you out. Ever been to Home Depot or Lowes? What do you think the Town Hall office would look like the next day when everyone there is applying for a permit? Any work done should be according to code for safety reasons, but minor work, the town has no business getting involved. I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as much sense as a Snow Shovel Store. Steve |
#54
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "SteveB" wrote in message I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as much sense as a Snow Shovel Store. Steve One problem with codes is that if one place has a particular requirement, it must be a good idea so we need it too. Some of the jurisdictions are trying to implement International Building Code. |
#55
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:37:34 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: "SteveB" wrote in message I've heard in a lot of places you HAVE to get a permit to change out a hot water heater. I do know that in Las Vegas, earthquake straps are a requirement now on hot water heaters. In Las Vegas, that makes about as much sense as a Snow Shovel Store. Steve One problem with codes is that if one place has a particular requirement, it must be a good idea so we need it too. Some of the jurisdictions are trying to implement International Building Code. Steve is correct on the WH quake straps in NV. In '95 closing on a house a Disclaimer was added, from CA rulings - lead in faucet manufacturing. I have been in my first quake ever, a small one in the Las Vegas Valley some years ago. The inspectors check the dates on a WH and if it has been changed after a code, then quake straps are required. The fancy ones look like seat belts vs an early metal galv. strap from HD. Watch out the left coast is coming your way ![]() |
#56
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
S. Barker wrote:
ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense. s Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? |
#57
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? |
#58
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. |
#59
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read literally, anyway. Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course. Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done w/o permits? -- |
#60
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
#1. been there done that with the insurance guy. No problem.
#2. not selling the house #3. Any such questions arise like that with me and I'd just say "Like that when we got here". Done. s "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message ... S. Barker wrote: ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense. s Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? |
#61
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
nope, me neither. Never been asked about wiring by an insurance company,
never brought up remodel particulars whilst buying a house (and we've bought 5 in the last 2 years), never any of this anal **** people spout off about. s "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message ... "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? |
#62
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
bull
s "Smitty Two" wrote in message news ![]() "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. |
#63
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
dpb wrote:
Smitty Two wrote: In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read literally, anyway. Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course. Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done w/o permits? -- Hmmm, Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that it met minimum requirement per code. I never built anything based on minimum requirement. |
#64
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
The town I lived in didn't have an inspector.
But, you still had to goto city hall, and get a permit for any work around the house. Had nothing to do with getting it right... it was just "legal extortion". rj |
#65
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Hear hear, most inspectors are professional and the work is demanding. Lots
of paperwork and dealing with people with a bad attitude is not easy. There are strict guidlines that the inspector must follow but, if you look hard enough you can almost always find infractions. When the people I'm dealing with are co-operative I usually work with them to solve the problems and move on. There is plenty of work without having to return to a site. Tony Hwang wrote: Eventually he did. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] Did you say: We are all human after all. No one is perfect. Are you? . Hi, I am not. I never ran into a inhumane inspectors. They were always helpful and kind. Also I believe in what goes round comes around. -- Message posted via http://www.homekb.com |
#66
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
"S. Barker" wrote: bull s "Smitty Two" wrote in message news ![]() "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. Yes, very insightful comment, my top-posting comrade. Maybe extension cords embedded in plywood are fine where you live there in Shantytown, Alabama, but in my world, even the real estate agents advise buyers to stay away from non-permitted stuff. Don't misinterpret my comments. I'm not a code-junkie, and I'm not a permit junkie, and I have as much contempt for nonsense liability claims as the next guy. I may not like it, but I respect the reality of our so-called advanced civilization, with all its vagaries. If a remodel or addition was done well and properly, the permit question would never arise. If it's done poorly, the permit question is a huge red flag, and absolutely reduces resale value. That's what "can" means, and your bold proclamation of bull is, uh, bull. |
#67
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Tony Hwang wrote:
.... Hmmm, Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that it met minimum requirement per code. ... hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me... -- |
#68
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message ... S. Barker wrote: ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense. s Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? Reality is nature's way of keeping things straight. Steve |
#69
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message ... "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? I have. But I am not answering for Mike. Steve |
#71
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
It's not just how things look either. My inspector made some what of a deal
out of the fact that i didn't have anchor bolts on my sill plate within 6" of the end of the boards. BUT, they never even questioned as to how or if the floor joists were fastened to said sill plate. HMMMMMMM..... go figure. It's just stuff like that, that make you see how much of a joke the whole code thing is. s wrote in message ... On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:48:10 -0500, dpb wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: ... Hmmm, Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that it met minimum requirement per code. ... hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me... Not if fit and finish mean anything to you. You can meet code and have a very ugly job. |
#72
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in
: "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. S. Barker writes: ANY work not seen from the outside would be stupid to fool with a permit and inspections. Just asking for more trouble and work and expense. Until your neighbors rat you out. Ever been to Home Depot or Lowes? What do you think the Town Hall office would look like the next day when everyone there is applying for a permit? Cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$, cha-ching$. Any work done should be according to code for safety reasons, but minor work, the town has no business getting involved. |
#73
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "Smitty Two" wrote in message In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. How does on "look" permitted? |
#74
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() "RJ" wrote in message ... The town I lived in didn't have an inspector. But, you still had to goto city hall, and get a permit for any work around the house. Had nothing to do with getting it right... it was just "legal extortion". rj Extortion is extortion. You pay the money or you suffer the consequences. It's a very simple concept. Steve |
#75
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]() wrote in message ... On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 11:48:10 -0500, dpb wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: ... Hmmm, Permit has nothing to do with quality of work. Permitted work means that it met minimum requirement per code. ... hmmmm..."met minimum requirement" sounds like a quality thing to me... Not if fit and finish mean anything to you. You can meet code and have a very ugly job. Yes, but your sewer pipe will have a downhill grade, the electrical will be safe, and your walls will support a snow load. After that, it's up to the individual to select people who will give them what they want aesthetically. Settling for less in fit and finish has nothing to do with "codes". Steve |
#76
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article , dpb wrote:
Smitty Two wrote: In article , "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Mike Paulsen" wrote in message Ask your insurance agent what happens if you have a loss which is somehow related to work done which should have had a permit, but didn't. When selling a house the purchase agreement may have an area where the seller must specify any work which was done without a permit. What now? I don't know of anyone that ever ran into those situations. Have you? In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. That isn't same as seller-declared unpermitted work, though, if read literally, anyway. Any shoddy workmanship can be a detriment of course. Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done w/o permits? Two most common remodels around here are "garage conversions" in which the garage has been converted to a bedroom, family room, or even studio apt., and back patios enclosed to become a "bonus room." I do not know what the law requires as far as disclosures, but most listings will mention whether the work was or was not permitted. In the case of bank-owned properties (abundant now) the standard disclaimer applies: "Buyer to satisfy himself whether bonus room was constructed with permit or not." The fact that these declarations are so common leads me to believe they are required. I've seen several houses where the owner claimed ignorance, and I've seen several where he claimed permit. A declaration of ignorance, roughly translated, means "there isn't a fat chance in hell this was permitted," in *my* mind. |
#77
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
Smitty Two wrote:
In article , dpb wrote: .... Did you actually run into a situation where it was required to and was be disclosed on the jurisdiction's disclosure forms to have been done w/o permits? .... I do not know what the law requires as far as disclosures, but most listings will mention whether the work was or was not permitted. In the case of bank-owned properties (abundant now) the standard disclaimer applies: "Buyer to satisfy himself whether bonus room was constructed with permit or not." The fact that these declarations are so common leads me to believe they are required. .... I've not done anything for several years now, so maybe things have changed, but I'd never run into that. I will say I've never seen at least in the free "pick-em-up" MLS listings anything like it even recently (was thumbing thru one at the coffee shop the other morning during the general old guy morning klatch)... Must be something local to your area... -- |
#78
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In article ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Smitty Two" wrote in message In the market for a rental now and I've walked away from several that had "bonus rooms" that didn't look permitted. I don't generally live in fear of liability issues, but I wouldn't take that one on. Non-permitted "improvements" can decrease, rather than increase, the value of a home. How does on "look" permitted? By not looking like a cob job. While it's theoretically true that there's no automatic correlation between quality of workmanship and the issuance of a permit, *most* homeowners don't have the skill to do "transparent" additions. They look like lean-tos, with shoddy construction built on inadequate foundations. OTOH, I saw a beautiful 1930 remodel the other day, clearly professional throughout, obviously not a 1930's floorplan. Nevertheless I was surprised to learn that the front of the house had had several hundred square feet added to it. Clearly the work of a good architect coupled with a "damn the expense" attitude towards quality of materials and workmanship. I know there are places where regulations are more lax, and the people are less litigious. But, in *this* city, you can't throw a bent nail in the trash without arousing a building inspector, and in *this* state, if my tenant stubbed a toe in an unpermitted room, I'd be in court answering "willful and negligent" charges. |
#79
![]()
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
![]()
In the towns where I have lived, permits serve two purposes: First,
they, if done right, insure that safety and building code provisions are met; Second, they alert the city to possible improvements in the property, which can result in an increase in property tax. So if the tax rolls show the property I'm looking at has three bedrooms and no air conditioning, but my visit shows five bedrooms and central air, that is an indication of unpermitted work, which will, at least, increase the property tax when discovered. But more dire is that if I do such work, or buy property on which it has been done, and there is a problem with the wiring, for example, that leads to a fire, my insurance company is going to check to see if the work was permitted, and deny coverage if it was not. Around here, if a homeowner has been cited for doing unpermitted work, the government can demand that he remove it, or at least dismantle it enough that they can do an inspection. I imagine that if the owner stands by running his mouth, the inspection can be very thorough. If he refuses, they pull the occupancy permit, and you have a house no one, including yourself, can legally occupy. From there, you will probably get to deal with a called mortgage, and possible jail time. And trying to sell property with an unoccupiable house on it should be interesting; he'll probably have to pay the buyer to take it off his hands. DanG wrote: A friend who shall remain nameless called. He lives in the county in a different state. He launched into a small addition with no permit. He has it framed and dried in. He received a letter from the county ordering him to cease and desist. He called wondering what they can do to him if he just keeps going. I didn't really have an answer. I did tell him that if there was a need for the electric company to do any work on the service, they would not perform without permit approval. Other than that, what can they do? This guy is a bit of a renegade. I explained about the yes, sir/no,sir - gee, I'm sorry approach. He's headed a bit more along the my castle, my kingdom, damn the torpedoes approach. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Upset with Porter Cable/Delta !! | Woodworking | |||
McFeely's (Should I be upset?) | Woodworking | |||
Have I upset Screwfix? | UK diy |