Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). So the line side has
both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I want
to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately switched
circuits). The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14 gauge wire
and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. Ok so I buy a 20 amp
switch - no "secondary" power attachment. Why is this? Is this standard or
are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins so that I can run
non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a box?

TIA

On Feb 18, 6:07�pm, "Eric Scantlebury"
wrote:
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. �On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). �So the line side has
both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I want
to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately switched
circuits). �The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14 gauge wire
and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. �Ok so I buy a 20 amp
switch - no "secondary" power attachment. �Why is this? �Is this standard or
are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins so that I can run
non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a box?

TIA

thats a backstap switch its really bad news, they tend to make poor
contact and go bad often,,,,,,,,,

really junk cheap quality .........

On Feb 18, 6:07*pm, "Eric Scantlebury"
wrote:
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. *On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). *So the line side has
both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I want
to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately switched
circuits). *The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14 gauge wire
and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. *Ok so I buy a 20 amp
switch - no "secondary" power attachment. *Why is this? *Is this standard or
are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins so that I can run
non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a box?

TIA

The push in type connections on the back of switches or outlets are
not a very reliable method of connection. They rely on a tension
grip holding the wire. Over time, it's not unusual for them to come
loose and be a source of things losing power or acting intermittent.
If you follow the newsgroup, you will see most people recommend not
using them.

To do what you want, use pig tail leads within the box. For example,
if you have one feed coming in and want to connect it to 2 switches,
you use a wire nut to attach 2 short wires to the incoming one. Those
wires then go to the switches.

"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message
...
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). So the line side
has both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I
want to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately
switched circuits). The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14
gauge wire and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. Ok so I
buy a 20 amp switch - no "secondary" power attachment. Why is this? Is
this standard or are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins
so that I can run non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a
box?

TIA

Couple of NEC code cycles ago, they outlawed back stabs in 12 gauge. You'd
be better off looping one continuous wire around the screw terminals of each
switch or pigtailing under a wire nut

Eric Scantlebury wrote:
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). So the line side has
both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I want
to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately switched
circuits). The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14 gauge wire
and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. Ok so I buy a 20 amp
switch - no "secondary" power attachment. Why is this? Is this standard or
are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins so that I can run
non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a box?

TIA



What you are calling a "push in port" is often called a "back stab"
connection.

Compared to a screw terminal connection, a "back stab" has a relatively
high
failure rate. Folks who do a lot of electrical work generally tend to
dislike the
"back stab" connections.

The old style "back stab" connections have the holes or the wire, and a
small "tab"
that can be pushed by a small flat blade screw driver to release the
"back stab"
connection. These are a really bad idea ifyou are cursed with aluminum
wire.

There is a newer style of back connection that seems to be a bit more
reliable.
These have a "port" if you will, and a screw and plate. You unloosen
the screw
as far as it will go, the plate sort of falls away from the port inside
the body.
Put the properly stripped wire (there should be a strip guide on the
deice, you strip
enough insulation so that the bare wire bottoms out in the hole, but no
bare
wire shows at the back of the device) into the "port" and srew the screw
down
tight which drives the plate ino clamping tight to the wire inside the
"port".

The "port" as you call it is really not an auxillary power feed. You
use the port
or the screw, not both.

Standard 20 amp single pole switches tend to easily fit only one 12 ga
wire around
the terminal screw. With a lot of pracice and the right tools you can
sometimes get
a 12 and a 14 around one screw, but its bad practice.

You usually don't find "ports" on 20 amp devices because ports tend to be
less reliable and the NEC doesn't, AFIK, allow old style "back stab" on
20 ap devices.

The new style

The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder. Connect the black wires of each separate branch to a
separate switch
output. All the white wires from the power feed and the branch cables
get wired
together. All the grounds get wired together.


I'm not sure what you are trying to do, but I think you need a detailed
wiring book,
and maybe some professional electrician type help. This is ot
complicated but 12 ga
is a bear to work with.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
Couple of NEC code cycles ago, they outlawed back stabs in 12 gauge. You'd
be better off looping one continuous wire around the screw terminals of
each switch or pigtailing under a wire nut

Sort of what I figured. Ok - so these 20 amp switches are much "beefier"
than a 15 amp switch. How does one put all the "pigtailed" and wirenuted
stuff in a 3 1/2 inch box with the darn outlet? LOL?

Not only that but once I get to the 3 switch box the amount of wire in that
is huge.

Eric Scantlebury wrote:
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). So the line side has
both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I want
to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately switched
circuits). The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14 gauge wire
and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. Ok so I buy a 20 amp
switch - no "secondary" power attachment. Why is this? Is this standard or
are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp cousins so that I can run
non switched power between multiple 20 amp switches in a box?

TIA


Those push in terminals are crap. The correct solution is to bring your
feed into the box, then a short black pigtail from the terminal of each
switch, and wire nut them all together.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Also on a complete side note - I have noticed that the switches and outles I
am using seem to have the ground screw connected right to the metal housing
that attaches to the box. Is this the case and if so can I discontinue
running another ground to my metal boxes as that should double as the plug
ground and box ground? That will save space right there.

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
Eric Scantlebury wrote:
Hello all,

I have a question about a single pole single throw switch. On a "normal"
Leviton 15 amp switch there are "secondary" attachments for power on the
back via a "push in port" (for lack of a better term). So the line side
has both screw terminals and this additional port (I presume to do what I
want to do - bring one power line feed into a box to power 3 separately
switched circuits). The problem is that the push in port only accepts 14
gauge wire and I have 12 gauge wire as this is a 20 amp circuit. Ok so I
buy a 20 amp switch - no "secondary" power attachment. Why is this? Is
this standard or are their 20 amp switches that mimic their 15 amp
cousins so that I can run non switched power between multiple 20 amp
switches in a box?

TIA

What you are calling a "push in port" is often called a "back stab"
connection.

Compared to a screw terminal connection, a "back stab" has a relatively
high
failure rate. Folks who do a lot of electrical work generally tend to
dislike the
"back stab" connections.

The old style "back stab" connections have the holes or the wire, and a
small "tab"
that can be pushed by a small flat blade screw driver to release the
"back stab"
connection. These are a really bad idea ifyou are cursed with aluminum
wire.

There is a newer style of back connection that seems to be a bit more
reliable.
These have a "port" if you will, and a screw and plate. You unloosen the
screw
as far as it will go, the plate sort of falls away from the port inside
the body.
Put the properly stripped wire (there should be a strip guide on the
deice, you strip
enough insulation so that the bare wire bottoms out in the hole, but no
bare
wire shows at the back of the device) into the "port" and srew the screw
down
tight which drives the plate ino clamping tight to the wire inside the
"port".

The "port" as you call it is really not an auxillary power feed. You use
the port
or the screw, not both.

Standard 20 amp single pole switches tend to easily fit only one 12 ga
wire around
the terminal screw. With a lot of pracice and the right tools you can
sometimes get
a 12 and a 14 around one screw, but its bad practice.

You usually don't find "ports" on 20 amp devices because ports tend to be
less reliable and the NEC doesn't, AFIK, allow old style "back stab" on 20
ap devices.

The new style

The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder. Connect the black wires of each separate branch to a
separate switch
output. All the white wires from the power feed and the branch cables
get wired
together. All the grounds get wired together.


I'm not sure what you are trying to do, but I think you need a detailed
wiring book,
and maybe some professional electrician type help. This is ot complicated
but 12 ga
is a bear to work with.

Well - what I'm trying to do is relatively simple. 1 power feed 3 seperate
lighting ciruits. I fully understand that I can do the work with wirenuts
(though space becomes the issue). The original wiring used the "back stab"
ports in this mannor so I figure I'd just mimic it. Evidently plan B and
struggling to get wire in a box is the "answer" I am looking for.

Eric Scantlebury wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message
...

Also on a complete side note - I have noticed that the switches and outles I
am using seem to have the ground screw connected right to the metal housing
that attaches to the box. Is this the case and if so can I discontinue
running another ground to my metal boxes as that should double as the plug
ground and box ground? That will save space right there.


I don't think so, unless the switches you are using are "self-grounding"
that is they have the little brass tab behind the mounting screw.

One thing I forgot to mention was that often really old school
electricians would leave the incoming black wire long, and if you have a
good pair of strippers simply strip 3/4" or so of insulation at 3-5"
increments until you have the same number of bare patches of wire as you
do switches to which you want to connect. Then you loop the wire under
the screw terminal of each switch. I don't know if this scenario meets
current code or not however not being a working electrician (I know it's
not acceptable for fire alarm, but for a reason that probably isn't
applicable to 120V wiring.)

ante


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Also on a complete side note - I have noticed that the switches and outles
I am using seem to have the ground screw connected right to the metal
housing that attaches to the box. Is this the case and if so can I
discontinue running another ground to my metal boxes as that should double
as the plug ground and box ground? That will save space right there.

If you have a metal box, which is grounded by an equipment grounding
conductor, (ground wire in Romex) the screws of the wall switches are
grounding them. Receptacles must have ground wires attached to them or
approved self grounding receptacles must be used.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Also on a complete side note - I have noticed that the switches and
outles I am using seem to have the ground screw connected right to the
metal housing that attaches to the box. Is this the case and if so can I
discontinue running another ground to my metal boxes as that should
double as the plug ground and box ground? That will save space right
there.

If you have a metal box, which is grounded by an equipment grounding
conductor, (ground wire in Romex) the screws of the wall switches are
grounding them. Receptacles must have ground wires attached to them or
approved self grounding receptacles must be used.

Ok - that makes sense with what I'm seeing. thanks.

On Feb 18, 6:44*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Eric Scantlebury wrote:

Those push in terminals are crap. *

nate

I concur and would add the new "back-wire" push-ins into that category
as well. As part of my kitchen reno, I did considerable rewiring. I
initially used the back-wire outlets and found that the connection
worked itself loose when I shoved everything into the box -- often
creating abit of exposed wire in the back. And it was pointless on
12g/20A wire for the counter outlets. Those back-wire outlets don't
have regular screws on the side. I ended up trashing a bunch and just
going with the standard screw outlets.

--Jeff

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.

Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed onto
5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the only way
I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

JC wrote:

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..

The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave
more room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.


Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed
onto 5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the
only way I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


Its not clear to me from the OP's post how many switces he is trying
to drive.
It might be 4, it might be 3, it might be 5. I can't tell.

If its 4 or 5 switches, you just set up two clusters of pigtails. No
big deal.

"JC" wrote in message
...

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.

Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed
onto 5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the only
way I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

Use larger wire nuts

"Jeff B" wrote in message
...
On Feb 18, 6:44 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Eric Scantlebury wrote:

Those push in terminals are crap.

nate

I concur and would add the new "back-wire" push-ins into that category
as well. As part of my kitchen reno, I did considerable rewiring. I
initially used the back-wire outlets and found that the connection
worked itself loose when I shoved everything into the box -- often
creating abit of exposed wire in the back. And it was pointless on
12g/20A wire for the counter outlets. Those back-wire outlets don't
have regular screws on the side. I ended up trashing a bunch and just
going with the standard screw outlets.

--Jeff

You are mistaking back stabs for back clamps. No screws are used with back
stabs. I agree with you, I hate back clamps too

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:25:31 -0500, "RBM" wrote:


"JC" wrote in message
m...

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.

Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed
onto 5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the only
way I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

Use larger wire nuts


I remember seeing some big gray wire nuts (at a hardware store that's
now gone, after Lowe's opened). Maybe use some of those.

BTW, there were marked with "99", "EAGLE", and "8-14".
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask me to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"JC" wrote in message
...

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.

Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed
onto 5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the
only way I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

Use larger wire nuts

Right. The red ones from HD easily put 4 together. Yellow is rated for 3.
In any case you can make "multiple" connections in the box and just wire
those together. As long as you stay within the NEC % rules for "crowding"
in the box.

"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"JC" wrote in message
...

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
The better method is to "pigtail" the connection, which involves wire
nuts.
12 ga is a bear to work in a standard depth box. Deep boxes leave more
room.
Power in on 1 cable, wire nut 3 or 4 12 ga feeders to the power black,
feed each switch
one feeder.

Time out! When you put 4 12 ga feeders to a power black, I'm assuming a
total of 5 12 ga wires. How in the world do you get a wire nut screwed
onto 5 wires. I'm having hell getting 3 of them tight and in fact the
only way I'm having any luck is twisting them together first.


--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

Use larger wire nuts

Right. The red ones from HD easily put 4 together. Yellow is rated for
3. In any case you can make "multiple" connections in the box and just
wire those together. As long as you stay within the NEC % rules for
"crowding" in the box.


I'm using the red ones and they're are anything from easy. Unless you twist
the wires first.

"JC" wrote in message
...

Use larger wire nuts

Right. The red ones from HD easily put 4 together. Yellow is rated for
3. In any case you can make "multiple" connections in the box and just
wire those together. As long as you stay within the NEC % rules for
"crowding" in the box.


I'm using the red ones and they're are anything from easy. Unless you
twist the wires first.

Hummm, I'm using the red ones with 4 12-2 and have no problems unless I get
to the grounds (one extra for the box) - I had to twist the 5. IF I ever
needed more than 5 under one cap I'd either split them out or use a bigger
nut. On several of the "older" boxes I've worked on in my house they had a
nut that was a two part nut. One metal coupler retains the wire by way of a
set screw type setup and then a cap screws onto that.

"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message
...

"JC" wrote in message
...

Use larger wire nuts

Right. The red ones from HD easily put 4 together. Yellow is rated for
3. In any case you can make "multiple" connections in the box and just
wire those together. As long as you stay within the NEC % rules for
"crowding" in the box.


I'm using the red ones and they're are anything from easy. Unless you
twist the wires first.

Hummm, I'm using the red ones with 4 12-2 and have no problems unless I
get to the grounds (one extra for the box) - I had to twist the 5. IF I
ever needed more than 5 under one cap I'd either split them out or use a
bigger nut. On several of the "older" boxes I've worked on in my house
they had a nut that was a two part nut. One metal coupler retains the
wire by way of a set screw type setup and then a cap screws onto that.


I've just switched to deeper boxes and more pigtails. It's the bare wire
grounds that I'm having the trouble with but I've solved the problem.

Thanks,
--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

On Feb 20, 9:46 am, "JC" wrote:
"Eric Scantlebury" wrote in message

...





"JC" wrote in message
m...

Use larger wire nuts

Right. The red ones from HD easily put 4 together. Yellow is rated for
3. In any case you can make "multiple" connections in the box and just
wire those together. As long as you stay within the NEC % rules for
"crowding" in the box.

I'm using the red ones and they're are anything from easy. Unless you
twist the wires first.

Hummm, I'm using the red ones with 4 12-2 and have no problems unless I
get to the grounds (one extra for the box) - I had to twist the 5. IF I
ever needed more than 5 under one cap I'd either split them out or use a
bigger nut. On several of the "older" boxes I've worked on in my house
they had a nut that was a two part nut. One metal coupler retains the
wire by way of a set screw type setup and then a cap screws onto that.

I've just switched to deeper boxes and more pigtails. It's the bare wire
grounds that I'm having the trouble with but I've solved the problem.

Thanks,
--
The doctors have narrowed my condition
down to two ailments. They say I either
have arthritis or rigor mortis.

JC

www.cellphonesforsoldiers.com

Just a thought; they make box extenders ( the ones with no back in
them) that make life easier in an over stuffed condition.