I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

On Feb 16, 7:56*am, "johngood_____" wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. * Our local store sells two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. *If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

I would not dilute it more than it states you can, but for a table you
might be better off with oil or a poly.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:56:28 GMT, "johngood_____"
wrote:

I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Be very careful adding water to water base products. Read the
directions carefully. Water based products are complicated blends,
and often have strict limits or prohibitions against adding water.
Even better, test it on the underside of the table. Thinning may or
may not have the desired effect. Some water base products will dry
faster if more water is added, locking in your wipe marks.

Personally, I'd seek out an oil based "wiping varnish", or make my own
by thinning a brush-on product to 60-70% varnish. A wiped on varnish
will probably need 5-7 coats on a table top. I'm not anti-water
base, I use 10-12 gallons a year of water based lacquer. I spray all
of my clear water based products.

You can remove any dust nibs with 400 grit paper and a wood or cork
sanding block. Some varnishes have a "window" where they can be
recoated without sanding, if you miss the window, you'll need to scuff
the surface with 400 grit or steel wool before the next wipe.

Yet another alternative is to brush on the finish, allow it to dry
thoroughly, sand it smooth, and rub it out to the desired gloss. This
takes a bit of learning and practice, but will probably yield the best
finish. Check your public library or local bookstore for Jeff
Jewitt's "Hand Applied Finishes." You can practice on the underside
of the table.

Be aware that if you stay with the water base, you need to protect
yourself. The primary selling points of water based finishes are
water cleanup and they aren't flammable. They ARE chemically
dangerous, sometimes containing more health hazards than solvent based
products. Ventilate well, better yet, spend the $30 for an organic
respirator. Water base does NOT equal safe to breathe.

Have fun, and practice where it won't be seen.

"johngood_____" wrote in message
...
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based
paint, i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or
less 'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope
that it would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells
two types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth
surface, which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.


Dilute the first coat a bit. After it dries, sand lightly with 220 grit and
apply a second coat. Sand and a third coat. Sand with 320 grit and a
fourth coat. Let dry for two weeks or more. Now, wet sand lightly with
400, then 600 grit. Then xxxx steel wool, then pumice, then rottenstone.
Finally, paste wax.

Done right you have a smooth finish with depth that will rival any pro
finish around.

First just because a finish says that its water cleanup it doesn't
necessarily mean its water as its carrier.

Its an emulsion of many solvents that mix with water. The can will tell you
how much solvent you can add to a finish. I'm also confused why you think
you need boiled water and the rag will give the worst finish if it would
even work..

The best way to get a smooth finish is to use a foam brush and foam roller.
You will also need some 400 grit wet dry sand paper.

Assuming that your surface is sufficiently smooth.

You then can start by putting down two coats drying between coats. Then wet
sand the finish without cutting through to the wood. Wipe with a wet lint
free towel.

Then apply another coat, drying then sand. Repeat until you have at least 4
total coats.


"johngood_____" wrote in message
...
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based
paint, i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or
less 'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope
that it would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells
two types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth
surface, which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

In article ,
"johngood_____" wrote:

I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

I'm a lousy painter myself, but was told once that (at least some) clear
finishes should be applied with brush strokes only in one direction, not
back and forth like paint. Keep the brush working towards the area
that's already applied, and don't overdo it since it begins to dry more
quickly than paint. Not entirely sure whether this would apply to water
based varnish, but technique is everything. I actually refinished
several 30" x 10' maple butcher block tabletops that way, and they came
out great, but I did use an oil based product.

In rec.woodworking johngood_____ wrote:
: I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
: Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

: I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
: brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
: i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
: 'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
: would all dry very smooth?

Bad idea -- thin only according to the instructions on the can.
Oil based varnishes can be applied as described, water based ones can't.

: Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells two
: types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
: emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
: which type of roller surface should I buy please?


I highly recommend the flat pads with short bristles sold for applying paint.
They work really well with waterbase varnish, much better than brushes (for me anyway).

I also find that scraping (vs sanding) helps in flattening.

-- Andy Barss

johngood_____ wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.


from my experiences with waterbased varnish and waterbased
coatings, it doesn't seem to matter much how you apply them. The
go on thin, self level and dry even thinner. Will take a fair
number of coats to get a 'thick' film.

Thank the air quality/VOC folks for the near demise of old fashion
oil based varnishes - (solvent level too high in them!)

paul
progressive epoxy polymers inc

On Feb 16, 8:56 am, "johngood_____" wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

Waterborne is already water thin.

Try a foam brush, light touch, tip off, and move on. Don't keep
brushing
over the same wet area like you can with an oil based varnish. That
causes
bubbles. I'd expect worse with a roller.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:48:17 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

Thank the air quality/VOC folks for the near demise of old fashion
oil based varnishes - (solvent level too high in them!)

There are still plenty of them out there. The new low VOC versions
can often be thinned by the end user to perform just like the old
version.

"Father Haskell" wrote in message
...
On Feb 16, 8:56 am, "johngood_____" wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible and not being too
brilliant wielding a paint brush wonder if, since it is a water based
paint,
i could *dilute* it right down with boiled water and then more or less
'smear' it on using a rag, then turn up the central heating and hope that
it
would all dry very smooth?

Another thought I had was to use a small roller. Our local store sells
two
types of rollar surface, a sponge for gloss paint and a hairy one for
emulsion. If using a roller was a possibilty to get a very smooth
surface,
which type of roller surface should I buy please?

Thanks for any advice with this.

This has proved a real education for me. The particular application is to a
well made japanese low table with a 'formica' top, which sounds awful, but
in fact has a very realistic wood pattern and unfortunately is built into
the table top in such a way as to make its removal likely to make the table
look really awful on its curved edges. The top is worn, not so much that
it has gone through the patterned layer, but is well scuffed and scratched
and these scuff marks disappear under a coat of the water based varnish.
thanks to all.

Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:48:17 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:
Thank the air quality/VOC folks for the near demise of old fashion
oil based varnishes - (solvent level too high in them!)

There are still plenty of them out there. The new low VOC versions
can often be thinned by the end user to perform just like the old
version.


--------- could be, but if you add solvent you probably are then
exceeding the VOC limits and are technically breaking the law.

Do you have a name or brand of the lower solvent based (not water
based) varnish? I haven't found any.

Some 'old varnish' can still get by thanks to the quart unit
exemption in place in most places (but not in California any more).

Same sort of issue with high solvent 2 part polys (LPU coatings).

You can legally apply them to your car, but not to your grill,
mailbox, etc.


Even most waterbased coatings have some VOCs - almost impossible
to sell a floor coating in Southern California!

Paul (from Progressive epoxy polymers)

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:27:01 -0500, Paul Oman
wrote:

Do you have a name or brand of the lower solvent based (not water
based) varnish? I haven't found any.

Low VOC Waterlox?

On Feb 17, 10:01 am, "johngood_____" wrote:
"Father Haskell" wrote in message

...



On Feb 16, 8:56 am, "johngood_____" wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible...

This has proved a real education for me. The particular application is to a
well made japanese low table with a 'formica' top, which sounds awful, but
in fact has a very realistic wood pattern and unfortunately is built into
the table top in such a way as to make its removal likely to make the table
look really awful on its curved edges. The top is worn, not so much that
it has gone through the patterned layer, but is well scuffed and scratched
and these scuff marks disappear under a coat of the water based varnish.
thanks to all.


There are flat pads applicators sold for applying water-based
floor finishes. You can also wipe them on straight from the
can using a rag in a manner similar to a wiping varnish,
though that may leave 'wipe marks', similar to brush marks.

Thinning almost any finish with it's solvent makes it dry faster,
that is one of the primary reasons for thinning a finish.

Most paints, used per directions, are _thixotropic_.
That means they have a non-Newtonian viscosity such that
the viscosity is low at high velocity and high at low velocity.
That in turn means that the finish flows readily from the
applicator (brush, pad, roller etc) onto the work, and then
resists running and sagging. That is good when painting
a vertical surface like the side of a house, but the opposite
of what you want when painting a table top.

I speculate that most varnishes are also thixotropic as well.

You can make your own wiping varnish by adding
oil and solvent (turpentine or mineral spirits) to an
oil-based varnish. Some recipes call for equal
volumes of each, others are 1 - 2 -3, but I don't
remember the order.

However, long-oil varnishes, (those with extra oil)
tend to be softer and more rubbery (good for spars
on a boat, bad for a table top) than regular varnishes.
There are also short-oil varnishes, those with a
lower proportion of oil to resin that will be harder.

I think that Behlen's Rock-hard table top varnish is
one such short-oil varnish that may be available by
mail order (Try Van Dykes Restorers).

Japanese furniture is traditionally finished with lacquer,
is it not? There are padding lacquers that can be applied
like French Polish.

--

FF

On Feb 17, 10:27 am, Paul Oman wrote:
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:

...

--------- could be, but if you add solvent you probably are then
exceeding the VOC limits and are technically breaking the law.

Do you have a name or brand of the lower solvent based (not water
based) varnish? I haven't found any.

Some 'old varnish' can still get by thanks to the quart unit
exemption in place in most places (but not in California any more).

Same sort of issue with high solvent 2 part polys (LPU coatings).

You can legally apply them to your car, but not to your grill,
mailbox, etc.

Even most waterbased coatings have some VOCs - almost impossible
to sell a floor coating in Southern California!

Paul (from Progressive epoxy polymers)


I have to wonder as to the total quantity of organic
vapors emitted by all of the asphalt over it's lifetime
in a place like Southern California, vs paints, lacquers
and varnishes over the same period of time.

--

FF

On Feb 17, 1:11 pm, Fred the Red Shirt
wrote:
On Feb 17, 10:01 am, "johngood_____" wrote:



"Father Haskell" wrote in message

...

On Feb 16, 8:56 am, "johngood_____" wrote:
I have a table top I wish to varnish over and have bought some Ronseal
Diamond Hard Clear Satin (water based) Varnish.

I would like to get it on as *smoothly* as possible...

This has proved a real education for me. The particular application is to a
well made japanese low table with a 'formica' top, which sounds awful, but
in fact has a very realistic wood pattern and unfortunately is built into
the table top in such a way as to make its removal likely to make the table
look really awful on its curved edges. The top is worn, not so much that
it has gone through the patterned layer, but is well scuffed and scratched
and these scuff marks disappear under a coat of the water based varnish.
thanks to all.

There are flat pads applicators sold for applying water-based
floor finishes. You can also wipe them on straight from the
can using a rag in a manner similar to a wiping varnish,
though that may leave 'wipe marks', similar to brush marks.

Thinning almost any finish with it's solvent makes it dry faster,
that is one of the primary reasons for thinning a finish.

Most paints, used per directions, are _thixotropic_.
That means they have a non-Newtonian viscosity such that
the viscosity is low at high velocity and high at low velocity.
That in turn means that the finish flows readily from the
applicator (brush, pad, roller etc) onto the work, and then
resists running and sagging. That is good when painting
a vertical surface like the side of a house, but the opposite
of what you want when painting a table top.

I speculate that most varnishes are also thixotropic as well.

Thixotrophy (fun to say) is an important quality of silkscreen
inks, which you want to stay in place until you hit them
with the squeegee.

You can make your own wiping varnish by adding
oil and solvent (turpentine or mineral spirits) to an
oil-based varnish. Some recipes call for equal
volumes of each, others are 1 - 2 -3, but I don't
remember the order.

Straight varnish and solvent works fine, is impossible
to tell from oil, and dries better. I just looked at a five
year old router stand that I finished with a mix of Rockhard,
tung, and mineral spirits. Finish had gotten rough, as
if the oil portion had weeped.

However, long-oil varnishes, (those with extra oil)
tend to be softer and more rubbery (good for spars
on a boat, bad for a table top) than regular varnishes.
There are also short-oil varnishes, those with a
lower proportion of oil to resin that will be harder.

I think that Behlen's Rock-hard table top varnish is
one such short-oil varnish that may be available by
mail order (Try Van Dykes Restorers).

Japanese furniture is traditionally finished with lacquer,
is it not? There are padding lacquers that can be applied
like French Polish.

Qualasole.

Real Japanese lacquer is made from a close relative of
poison ivy, not nearly as friendly to apply.