In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or
3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

On Feb 13, 3:34*pm, "Al D" wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). *I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. *Can I:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1. *Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 2. *Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 3. *Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? *If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or the
neutral bar? *I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). *Is this the right thinking on that?

You should hire a qualified electrician.

"Al D" wrote in message
. ..
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or
3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar
or the neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate
from the rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

In the main service panel, your ground bar and neutral bar are tied
together. Buy a new ground bar and bolt it to the panel with a substantial
sized conductor to the existing ground bar. In the sub panel, the added
bar is for grounds only. Do not connect a bonding screw or jumper to the
neutral bar

In article , "Al D" wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or

Yes. Connect it mechanically to the panel chassis, then add a bonding jumper
(#6 or #8 copper) to one of the existing bars. Move a ground wire from the
existing bar to the new bar to make room for the jumper.
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or

You can, but it's an awful lot of work for no benefit.

3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

See above.

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

No. That's the neutral bar, because it's separate from the rest and not
bonded.

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel. They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Al D"
wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or

Yes. Connect it mechanically to the panel chassis, then add a bonding
jumper
(#6 or #8 copper) to one of the existing bars. Move a ground wire from the
existing bar to the new bar to make room for the jumper.
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or

You can, but it's an awful lot of work for no benefit.

3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

See above.

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or
the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

No. That's the neutral bar, because it's separate from the rest and not
bonded.

I think you're misinterpreting him, because he's not clear in what he means.
If he's talking about a bar that he added, it's a ground bar. The neutral
bar is always integral to the panel




Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel.
They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the
one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Thanks Doug. I appreciate your advice.


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Al D"
wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or

Yes. Connect it mechanically to the panel chassis, then add a bonding
jumper
(#6 or #8 copper) to one of the existing bars. Move a ground wire from the
existing bar to the new bar to make room for the jumper.
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or

You can, but it's an awful lot of work for no benefit.

3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

See above.

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or
the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

No. That's the neutral bar, because it's separate from the rest and not
bonded.

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel.
They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the
one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:12:04 -0500, RBM wrote:
If he's talking about a bar that he added, it's a ground bar. The neutral
bar is always integral to the panel

That's not true.

Some panels have add-on neutral bars to be used when the panel is
installed as a sub-panel (no ground-neutral bond). The add-on bars come
with insulating (plastic) standoffs and usually a flexible plastic
shield under and around one side of the bus. I think Siemens is one
brand which does this, but I don't remember for certain which.

sdb

--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

"sylvan butler" wrote in message
rnal...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:12:04 -0500, RBM wrote:
If he's talking about a bar that he added, it's a ground bar. The neutral
bar is always integral to the panel

That's not true.

Some panels have add-on neutral bars to be used when the panel is
installed as a sub-panel (no ground-neutral bond). The add-on bars come
with insulating (plastic) standoffs and usually a flexible plastic
shield under and around one side of the bus. I think Siemens is one
brand which does this, but I don't remember for certain which.

sdb
I have never seen that. Every single phase main lug only panel I've ever
seen, comes with the neutral buss installed and a ground detail loose or in
a bag. Please give me the make and model number of one that comes with a
neutral not installed

--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:59:46 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Al D" wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or

Yes. Connect it mechanically to the panel chassis, then add a bonding jumper
(#6 or #8 copper) to one of the existing bars. Move a ground wire from the
existing bar to the new bar to make room for the jumper.
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or

You can, but it's an awful lot of work for no benefit.

3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

See above.

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

No. That's the neutral bar, because it's separate from the rest and not
bonded.

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel. They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.



Error! Ground and neutral are required to be UNbonded. I just new service
put in and the inspector required that the ground and neutral bars be
isolated with the ground bar bonced to the box. The electrician had to cut
the bonding bar.

Mike D.

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:59:46 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Al D"
wrote:
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or

Yes. Connect it mechanically to the panel chassis, then add a bonding
jumper
(#6 or #8 copper) to one of the existing bars. Move a ground wire from
the
existing bar to the new bar to make room for the jumper.
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with
a
new longer one, or

You can, but it's an awful lot of work for no benefit.

3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

See above.

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or
the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

No. That's the neutral bar, because it's separate from the rest and not
bonded.

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel.
They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the
one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.



Error! Ground and neutral are required to be UNbonded. I just new
service
put in and the inspector required that the ground and neutral bars be
isolated with the ground bar bonced to the box. The electrician had to
cut
the bonding bar.

Mike D.

The only way that would be correct, is if the main disconnect wasn't in the
service panel. Do you have a main disconnect in a meter panel?

In article , wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:59:46 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel. They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.

Error! Ground and neutral are required to be UNbonded.

False.

"A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded AC service shall have a
grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at
each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

(1) The connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of
the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal bus to which
the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting
means."

[2005 National Electrical Code, Article 250.24(A)(1)]

I just new service
put in and the inspector required that the ground and neutral bars be
isolated with the ground bar bonced to the box. The electrician had to cut
the bonding bar.

Either you have described the situation incorrectly, or the inspector is
incompetent. The facts are as I stated them: the Code *requires* ground and
neutral to be bonded together at the service entrance, and *prohibits* them
being bonded together anywhere else. If you disagree, I invite you to do as I
did, and cite the relevant portion of the NEC which supports your claim.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 00:59:46 GMT, Doug Miller wrote:

Ground and neutral are required to be bonded together in the main panel. They
are *prohibited* from being bonded together anywhere else. Hence, in your
subpanel, the bar that is bonded to the panel is the ground bar, and the one
that is not bonded is the neutral bar.

Error! Ground and neutral are required to be UNbonded.


False.

"A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded AC service shall have a
grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at
each service, in accordance with 250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

(1) The connection shall be made at any accessible point from the load end of
the service drop or service lateral to and including the terminal bus to which
the grounded service conductor is connected at the service disconnecting
means."

[2005 National Electrical Code, Article 250.24(A)(1)]


I just new service
put in and the inspector required that the ground and neutral bars be
isolated with the ground bar bonced to the box. The electrician had to cut
the bonding bar.


Either you have described the situation incorrectly, or the inspector is
incompetent. The facts are as I stated them: the Code *requires* ground and
neutral to be bonded together at the service entrance, and *prohibits* them
being bonded together anywhere else. If you disagree, I invite you to do as I
did, and cite the relevant portion of the NEC which supports your claim.


And if you think about it, that is for good reason - a disconnected
neutral outside the house would be even more dangerous if the ground and
neutral were not bonded together.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Al D" wrote in message
. ..
In the main service panel there are 2 bus bars ( neutral and ground ). I
don't have any screw holes left to add an additional branch circuit to a
detached subpanel located 60' away from the main. Can I:
1. Add an additional bus bar to the main
panel and if so, how do I connect it to the old bus bar(s)? or
2. Replace the entire full bus bar with a
new longer one, or
3. Neither of the above 2 can be done at
all???? If this is so, what can I do to solve this problem?

In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar
or the neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate
from the rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?

Al, humor me and describe this bus bar that you are installing as a "neutral
bar". I am concerned that you may be doing something wrong and dangerous

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:39:25 -0500, RBM wrote:
"sylvan butler" wrote in message
rnal...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:12:04 -0500, RBM wrote:
If he's talking about a bar that he added, it's a ground bar. The neutral
bar is always integral to the panel

That's not true.

Some panels have add-on neutral bars to be used when the panel is
installed as a sub-panel (no ground-neutral bond). The add-on bars come
with insulating (plastic) standoffs and usually a flexible plastic
shield under and around one side of the bus. I think Siemens is one
brand which does this, but I don't remember for certain which.

I have never seen that. Every single phase main lug only panel I've ever

You were talking about add-on bars. And so was my response. Read it
again until you understand.

sdb

--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

"sylvan butler" wrote in message
rnal...
On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:39:25 -0500, RBM wrote:
"sylvan butler" wrote in
message
rnal...
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:12:04 -0500, RBM wrote:
If he's talking about a bar that he added, it's a ground bar. The
neutral
bar is always integral to the panel

That's not true.

Some panels have add-on neutral bars to be used when the panel is
installed as a sub-panel (no ground-neutral bond). The add-on bars come
with insulating (plastic) standoffs and usually a flexible plastic
shield under and around one side of the bus. I think Siemens is one
brand which does this, but I don't remember for certain which.

I have never seen that. Every single phase main lug only panel I've ever

You were talking about add-on bars. And so was my response. Read it
again until you understand.

sdb

--
What's seen on your screen? http://PcScreenWatch.com
sdbuse1 on mailhost bigfoot.com

I do understand, your response was incorrect. You need to read what the OP
wrote:
"In the subpanel, the bus bar that is away from the breaker panel itself
that
I added to the subpanel box, does that bus bar become the ground bar or the
neutral bar? I think it's the ground bar because it IS separate from the
rest ( not bonded ). Is this the right thinking on that?"

He's questioning the bus bar that did NOT come installed in the sub panel,
The one that HE installed. Neutral bars come installed in MLO panels. They
provide a bonding jumper, which you install if using the panel as a main
service panel. Some panels include a GROUND detail for use when the panel is
being used as a sub. Often this ground detail is loose or in a bag and gets
installed by the electrician. The confusion is what the OP means by (not
bonded), as the neutral bar is the one that wouldn't be bonded. You can
purchase additional neutral bars and ground bars for any panel, but that's
not what the OP was referring to