My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

You should have replaced the switches with like switches. yes, you'll have
2-three ways and one 4-way. WHERE the 4-way is , is anybodys guess. It's
the one with 4 wires on it.

s


"gary" wrote in message
...
My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

HI "S. Barker",

When you say "...WHERE the 4-way is is anybody's guess..." are you
saying it doesn't matter if the 4-way switch is installed at either
end of the hallway or at the intersection of the legs?

Gary

In addition to what S. Barker said: Assuming you noted the "common" terminal
on each three way and transferred the wires to the new switches correctly,
your problem is likely at the 4 way. The in and out terminals won't
necessarily be located in the same position from switch to switch. You'll
have 4 wires on that switch. Each pair of wires will come from different
cables. One set goes to the input and one set to the output which will be
marked on the back of the switch, maybe!!



"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
You should have replaced the switches with like switches. yes, you'll
have 2-three ways and one 4-way. WHERE the 4-way is , is anybodys guess.
It's the one with 4 wires on it.

s


"gary" wrote in message
...
My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

gary wrote:
My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.


Gary --

This is not meant as a slam, but you should not embark upon a project
like this witout some note paper, sme white adhesive tape, some black
eletrical tape, and a small digital camera.

Three ways and 4 ways get complicated because of the way the hots and
neutrals " travel", I think is the term.

Let me offer some ideas that could help you, or others, with simlar
projects.
These are slow and clunky methods, which no licensed professonal electician
would use, but these ideas, which I adopted after screwing up several repair
jobs back in the distant past, have saved me from similar errors.

AFTER YOU KILL THE BREAKER and unscrew the wall plate, you unscrew the
swtch
from the box and slowly and carefully pull the switch out of the box.
Pull it far
enough so that the wires are all extended as far as possibleout of the box.

DONT UNSCREW ANY OF THE WIRES FROM THE TERMINALS ON THE SWITCH YET.

Now, with the digital, photograph every aspect of th connections. You
want to see wire colors and screw terminal colors.

Then write down on your pad wire colors and screw terminal colors on
your pad.

Then take the white adhesive tape and start making labels from strips of
tape.
Label each wire with the wire color and the screw terminal color from
the switch.
Also label each scew erminal with a label showing the color of he wire
attached t it.

Now unscrew the wires from the terminals, and wrap each wire end with
electical tape.

Go to your electrical supplier - opefull a real supplier, not the BORG
orLOEWS and
get a replacement switch.

Install the replacment. You have photos of the original installation;
notes and
wire labels. Installation should be relatively easy.

This isn't rocket surgery or brain science, but it can be omplicated for
a beginner.
Thats why going slow, photographing and taking notes, and labeling wires
and
terminals with 3 ways and 4 ways can help so much.

A licensed electician would do it by training, memory and just looking at
the wires. And charge you accordingly and appropriately for that training
and memory.

I'm not that good, so I photo and label before disassembling any 3 way
or 4 way.
With the three ways, I've done enough over the last 40 or so years that
I can sort
of just "eyeball" it by looking at the terminal screw colors and wire
color, but I get
lost with the 4 ways.

Hmmm...just thiking that what we commonly call a "three way" is really a
two way
switch (on off) with three wires and what we commonly call a "4 way" is
still a two way (on - off) with 4 wires.


I can't begin to advise you on how to re fix what you already disassembled.
You have to be there and looking at it to fix it, becauseofthe issues
regarding
terminal screw olors and wire colors.


Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

Hi Jim,

All of your comments are excellent and I know that I SHOULD have done
what you've said. But, I didn't.

Given my current situation, I'm looking for help on how to "start from
scratch".

Gary

gary wrote:

Hi Jim,

All of your comments are excellent and I know that I SHOULD have done
what you've said. But, I didn't.

Given my current situation, I'm looking for help on how to "start from
scratch".

Gary

I know Gary. And I can't help you there. I would if I could.

I was just trying to let others know how to possibly avoid the poblem,
and wasn't meaning to slam you.

I've been in just the place you are in now, and fixing it wasn't fun.
It took me a
couple days, some wiring books from the local library, lots of paper to
diagram
out what I was doing, and a lot of tripping of the breaker.

Hi Jim,

I didn't take your comments as a "slam". A "good kick in the pants"
was what I needed BEFORE I started mucking with the switches.

Gary

gary wrote:
My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

It all depends on how the physical wiring was done originally in your
house. There are many possible variations, but they are all
"logically" the same

go here for a diagram that may be of help understanding what you are
up against, and what you need determine about your specific physical
wiring layout.

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/3....htm#fourbasic

Or just do one at a time.

If you didn't mark the wires at the switches then this could get
interesting.

There is a logical way to continue........

The first thing you need to do is identify the switch the hot comes
into. It will be one of the 3-way boxes.

The two 3-way boxes will have 3 wires and the 4-way box will have 4.

Let us know what you have. If you didn't mark anything the next step
is to disconnect everything.




On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:27:28 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

gary wrote:
My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.


Gary --

This is not meant as a slam, but you should not embark upon a project
like this witout some note paper, sme white adhesive tape, some black
eletrical tape, and a small digital camera.

Three ways and 4 ways get complicated because of the way the hots and
neutrals " travel", I think is the term.

Let me offer some ideas that could help you, or others, with simlar
projects.
These are slow and clunky methods, which no licensed professonal electician
would use, but these ideas, which I adopted after screwing up several repair
jobs back in the distant past, have saved me from similar errors.

AFTER YOU KILL THE BREAKER and unscrew the wall plate, you unscrew the
swtch
from the box and slowly and carefully pull the switch out of the box.
Pull it far
enough so that the wires are all extended as far as possibleout of the box.

DONT UNSCREW ANY OF THE WIRES FROM THE TERMINALS ON THE SWITCH YET.

Now, with the digital, photograph every aspect of th connections. You
want to see wire colors and screw terminal colors.

Then write down on your pad wire colors and screw terminal colors on
your pad.

Then take the white adhesive tape and start making labels from strips of
tape.
Label each wire with the wire color and the screw terminal color from
the switch.
Also label each scew erminal with a label showing the color of he wire
attached t it.

Now unscrew the wires from the terminals, and wrap each wire end with
electical tape.

Go to your electrical supplier - opefull a real supplier, not the BORG
orLOEWS and
get a replacement switch.

Install the replacment. You have photos of the original installation;
notes and
wire labels. Installation should be relatively easy.

This isn't rocket surgery or brain science, but it can be omplicated for
a beginner.
Thats why going slow, photographing and taking notes, and labeling wires
and
terminals with 3 ways and 4 ways can help so much.

A licensed electician would do it by training, memory and just looking at
the wires. And charge you accordingly and appropriately for that training
and memory.

I'm not that good, so I photo and label before disassembling any 3 way
or 4 way.
With the three ways, I've done enough over the last 40 or so years that
I can sort
of just "eyeball" it by looking at the terminal screw colors and wire
color, but I get
lost with the 4 ways.

Hmmm...just thiking that what we commonly call a "three way" is really a
two way
switch (on off) with three wires and what we commonly call a "4 way" is
still a two way (on - off) with 4 wires.


I can't begin to advise you on how to re fix what you already disassembled.
You have to be there and looking at it to fix it, becauseofthe issues
regarding
terminal screw olors and wire colors.


Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:24:19 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:

My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

Reed wrote:

SNIP HAPPENS

go here for a diagram that may be of help understanding what you are up
against, and what you need determine about your specific physical wiring
layout.

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/3....htm#fourbasic


That is a great link.

Thank you.

Terry wrote:

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:24:19 -0800 (PST), gary
wrote:


My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?


Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.


Yeah! What he said!

Good job, Terry!

Physically, the 4 way could go anywhere. Electrically, it's located between
two 3 way switches. When you install a pair of 3 way switches, Three wires
are run between them, two of those wires are called travelers, and get
connected to the 3 way switches on the terminals other than the common
terminal. When you install one or a hundred 4 way switches into the circuit,
they simply go between the travelers, so you're cutting the travelers giving
you 4 wires, two from one side go to the input and two from the other side
go to the output




"gary" wrote in message
...
HI "S. Barker",

When you say "...WHERE the 4-way is is anybody's guess..." are you
saying it doesn't matter if the 4-way switch is installed at either
end of the hallway or at the intersection of the legs?

Gary

First, go to the 4 way location. You have 4 wires that were on the switch.
Temporarily splice them together white to white, red to red, or whatever
colors you have. Next remove the three wires from each 3 way switch and
separate them. Next turn on electricity and check the three wires at each 3
way location. Only one wire will be hot. That wire goes to the common
terminal of the 3 way switch. Now connect the two other wires of that switch
to the other two terminals. Turn on and off the electric as necessary to be
safe. Now go to the second switch location, and with electric on, determine
which one of those 3 wires is hot. When located, it gets wired to one of the
traveler terminals of the second switch. Now go back to the first switch and
flip it once. Now with electric on determine which of the two remaining
wires at the second location is hot, and connect it to the other traveler
terminal. The final wire goes to the common terminal, and with electric on
the light should work properly from both 3 way switches. Last unsplice the 4
wires at the 4 way location and connect one set to the input and one set to
the output of the switch


"gary" wrote in message
...
Hi Jim,

All of your comments are excellent and I know that I SHOULD have done
what you've said. But, I didn't.

Given my current situation, I'm looking for help on how to "start from
scratch".

Gary

That's a great explanation. It makes me want to try it for a similar
problem that I have and haven't been able to figure out.

In my case, I only have two 3-way switches to figure out (no 4-ways). But,
I have knob and tube wiring in my house instead of more modern two-wire
wiring. I'm guessing (hoping) that won't make any difference. I have spent
forever trying to figure mine out and basically had given up.

"Terry" wrote in message
...

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

Great link. I'm going to try studying it to see if I can figure out a
problem I am having. In my case, I only have two 3-way switches (no
4-ways). But, I also have knob and tube wiring in my house. I don't know
if that will change anything, but I'm going to give it a try.

"Reed" wrote in message
...

It all depends on how the physical wiring was done originally in your
house. There are many possible variations, but they are all "logically"
the same

go here for a diagram that may be of help understanding what you are up
against, and what you need determine about your specific physical wiring
layout.

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/3....htm#fourbasic

My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

"gary" wrote in message
...
Hi Jim,

All of your comments are excellent and I know that I SHOULD have done
what you've said. But, I didn't.

Given my current situation, I'm looking for help on how to "start from
scratch".


I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Open up all of the switches and leave them hanging out. Don't disconnect
anything yet. If what you had before was two 3-way switches and one 4-way
switch you should of had two electrical switch boxes with 3 conductors and
possibly a ground wire and one electrical switch box with 4 conductors and
possibly a ground wire. Hopefully you did not disconnect any other wires in
each switch box.

Go to the box with the four conductors and disconnect that switch. Two of
the conductors should be in one cable and the other two conductors should be
in another cable. Splice the wires from one cable to the wires in the other
cable separately. At this point it doesn't matter which goes to where as
long as they are spliced to the other cable.

Now see if the 3-way switches work properly. If not then you need to
identify the hot wire in one of the 3-way switches. This is the only wire
that remains hot regardless of any of the switches position. It would be
best to disconnect the wires from one of the 3-way switches at this point.
When you find the hot put that wire on the darker colored screw on the 3-way
switch and put the other two remaining wires in that box on the other two
identical screw terminals on the 3-way switch. Only one switch box will
have the hot wire.

Now check to see if the 3-way switches are working properly. If not then
you need to identify the load wire in the other 3-way switch box.
Disconnect all of the wires from this 3-way switch. Check to see which one
is hot. Then go flip the 3-way switch that you previously worked on. Go
back and check to see which wire is hot now in the second 3-way switch box.
Those two wires will be your travelers and will go onto the 3-way switch
screw terminals that are identical. The one wire that was never hot will go
on the one screw terminal that is a different color.

Now both 3-way switches should be working properly. Back to the 4-way
switch. Unfortunately each switch manufacturer has their own wiring
configuration, but usually it is either top and bottom or each side. If you
still have the package that the 4-way switch came in there may be a wiring
diagram with it or there may be a wiring diagram on the back of the switch.
Basically you want to take each pair of wires and either wire them top and
bottom or side and side onto the 4-way switch.

I would use a pigtail socket and bulb to test for the hot wires as a
multimeter can just add to the confusion. It is easiest to do this while
the circuit is hot, however I do not recommend that for a novice. Maybe you
can have someone standing by the circuit breakers and give him or her a yell
when you want the breaker flipped. Always check the wires to make sure that
the other person has actually killed the power before proceeding.

Good luck.

Thankfully, I have never seen any knob and tube wiring.

I did read that knob and tube does not always use standard switching
so caution is advised.

{
This site says...
http://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=2839

There are a few things you need to consider when dealing with knob &
tube wiring. The first thing is they can be very brittle and the
insulation can start falling off exposing bare conductors. The second
thing to consider is how 3-way switches were once wired. At one time
when houses were wired with knob & tube, they would feed the 3-way
switches with a hot and neutral. They would then send a single
conductor from the point screw of the switches to the light(s). The
switched would either send up a neutral signal or a hot signal
depending on the position of the switch. This is often called lazy
susan switching. If the lazy susan wiring gets changed around on the
3-way switches you end up with a short circuit (hot to neutral short).
Since it does not sound like you have this issue you probably don't
have lazy susan wiring.
}


Since I have never messed with any knob and tube I really can't tell
you what would happen. I would not want to risk putting a direct
short on brittle insulation.

One way you could tell if you do have a hot and a neutral at the
3-ways would be to turn the power off and disconnect both switches.
Then with the power on, check between each wires of each switch. You
should NOT have 120V between any of the wires. If you do, then you
might have one of the above switching arrangements. (Stop here and
post back)

If you don't have 120V between the wires, you could then go one step
farther to make sure you do have travelers. Turn the power back off,
and with a helper do a continuity check. The two wires that were not
hot should go directly to the other switch. If this is the case then
it is a safe bet that you do have a standard switching arrangement.



On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:00:22 -0500, "BETA-32"
wrote:

That's a great explanation. It makes me want to try it for a similar
problem that I have and haven't been able to figure out.

In my case, I only have two 3-way switches to figure out (no 4-ways). But,
I have knob and tube wiring in my house instead of more modern two-wire
wiring. I'm guessing (hoping) that won't make any difference. I have spent
forever trying to figure mine out and basically had given up.

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

My "L"-shaped hallway has a light switch at the end of each leg, a
switch at the intersection of the legs and a ceiling-light the middle
of each leg.

Originally, the ceiling-lights could be turned on/off from each
switch.

I've replaced the original switches with new switches but now only one
switch operates the ceiling-lights.

Should a three-way switch be installed at each end of the hallway and
the four-way switch be installed at the intersection of the legs? If
the answer is "NO", where should the various switches be installed?

How to I determine what wire gets connected to each terminal of each
switch?

You are not qualified to do this, or you would not have replaced
switches with different ones; always keep the same type.

--
Twayne

Tired of MS Office and their shananigans?
Try this free replacement:
http://www.openoffice.org

In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Huh? How many people do you have kill-filed, for god's sake? Or maybe
your ISP is putting a six hour delay on articles.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Huh? How many people do you have kill-filed, for god's sake? Or maybe
your ISP is putting a six hour delay on articles.


Now that you mentioned it, I have noticed that my ISP's newsgroup server has
been dragging its feet lately. I'll make a call. Maybe the bandwidth is
getting used up as they expand service and now are adding phones onto the
lines.

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:47:57 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

In addition to what S. Barker said: Assuming you noted the "common" terminal
on each three way and transferred the wires to the new switches correctly,
your problem is likely at the 4 way. The in and out terminals won't
necessarily be located in the same position from switch to switch. You'll
have 4 wires on that switch. Each pair of wires will come from different
cables. One set goes to the input and one set to the output which will be
marked on the back of the switch, maybe!!


I was thinking about how a 4-way is wired. You wire it in pairs so,
even though 4-way has 4 wires and 4 screws, you still have a 50-50
chance to wire it correctly.

With a 3-way, on the other hand, you only have a 1 in 3 chance of
getting them right.

Also, if you screw up the 4-way nothing will work. If you get it
right, then one of the 3 ways will work.

So the OP must have had the 4-way correct.

John, I've been having the same problem with Optimum for about two weeks. If
I reply to a post, it'll show up if I look on google groups, but my news
reader doesn't get it, sometimes up to three hours. I've been complaining to
Optimum, but getting nowhere. They tell me to expect "some latency", or ask
me what browser I'm using, then they tell me the newsgroup servers are
farmed out to a third party, like that should mean something to me. Kinda
like beatin a dead horse



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Huh? How many people do you have kill-filed, for god's sake? Or maybe
your ISP is putting a six hour delay on articles.


Now that you mentioned it, I have noticed that my ISP's newsgroup server
has
been dragging its feet lately. I'll make a call. Maybe the bandwidth is
getting used up as they expand service and now are adding phones onto the
lines.

One position of a 4way feeds straight through II , The second position feeds
through in an X pattern. If you wired it wrong, you'd still make a circuit
in the X pattern, so depending upon your 3 way positions you could still get
a light


"Terry" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:47:57 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

In addition to what S. Barker said: Assuming you noted the "common"
terminal
on each three way and transferred the wires to the new switches correctly,
your problem is likely at the 4 way. The in and out terminals won't
necessarily be located in the same position from switch to switch. You'll
have 4 wires on that switch. Each pair of wires will come from different
cables. One set goes to the input and one set to the output which will be
marked on the back of the switch, maybe!!


I was thinking about how a 4-way is wired. You wire it in pairs so,
even though 4-way has 4 wires and 4 screws, you still have a 50-50
chance to wire it correctly.

With a 3-way, on the other hand, you only have a 1 in 3 chance of
getting them right.

Also, if you screw up the 4-way nothing will work. If you get it
right, then one of the 3 ways will work.

So the OP must have had the 4-way correct.

I've never heard of "lazy Susan" but it goes by many names, typically
"Carter system, or lazy neutral", and although pretty much outlawed by the
NEC in 1920, it was used for decades longer and not exclusive to K&T wiring.
From my experience K&T wiring has held up better than anything in the
industry until thermoplastic came on the market. It's demise came when
circuits were required to be grounded. In switch boxes, it tends to be in
excellent condition, but in ceiling outlets where light fixtures were in
close proximity to it, it would bake the insulation causing it to crumble
when moved. The rubber covered cloth conductors used in the forties and
fifties were even worse in this situation



"Terry" wrote in message
...
Thankfully, I have never seen any knob and tube wiring.

I did read that knob and tube does not always use standard switching
so caution is advised.

{
This site says...
http://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=2839

There are a few things you need to consider when dealing with knob &
tube wiring. The first thing is they can be very brittle and the
insulation can start falling off exposing bare conductors. The second
thing to consider is how 3-way switches were once wired. At one time
when houses were wired with knob & tube, they would feed the 3-way
switches with a hot and neutral. They would then send a single
conductor from the point screw of the switches to the light(s). The
switched would either send up a neutral signal or a hot signal
depending on the position of the switch. This is often called lazy
susan switching. If the lazy susan wiring gets changed around on the
3-way switches you end up with a short circuit (hot to neutral short).
Since it does not sound like you have this issue you probably don't
have lazy susan wiring.
}


Since I have never messed with any knob and tube I really can't tell
you what would happen. I would not want to risk putting a direct
short on brittle insulation.

One way you could tell if you do have a hot and a neutral at the
3-ways would be to turn the power off and disconnect both switches.
Then with the power on, check between each wires of each switch. You
should NOT have 120V between any of the wires. If you do, then you
might have one of the above switching arrangements. (Stop here and
post back)

If you don't have 120V between the wires, you could then go one step
farther to make sure you do have travelers. Turn the power back off,
and with a helper do a continuity check. The two wires that were not
hot should go directly to the other switch. If this is the case then
it is a safe bet that you do have a standard switching arrangement.



On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:00:22 -0500, "BETA-32"
wrote:

That's a great explanation. It makes me want to try it for a similar
problem that I have and haven't been able to figure out.

In my case, I only have two 3-way switches to figure out (no 4-ways).
But,
I have knob and tube wiring in my house instead of more modern two-wire
wiring. I'm guessing (hoping) that won't make any difference. I have
spent
forever trying to figure mine out and basically had given up.

"Terry" wrote in message
. ..

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
John, I've been having the same problem with Optimum for about two weeks.
If
I reply to a post, it'll show up if I look on google groups, but my news
reader doesn't get it, sometimes up to three hours. I've been complaining
to
Optimum, but getting nowhere. They tell me to expect "some latency", or
ask
me what browser I'm using, then they tell me the newsgroup servers are
farmed out to a third party, like that should mean something to me. Kinda
like beatin a dead horse



Thanks for letting me know Roy. I was wondering if it was just me. A few
years ago I kept having a problem every weekend with Optimum's newsgroup
servers. I called them several times and they said that they weren't
experiencing any problems and put the blame on my computer. After about two
months the problem miraculously went away and I had changed nothing on my
system. They tout the quality and speed of their network so much that maybe
they refuse to admit to a customer that there is a problem.



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Huh? How many people do you have kill-filed, for god's sake? Or maybe
your ISP is putting a six hour delay on articles.


Now that you mentioned it, I have noticed that my ISP's newsgroup server
has
been dragging its feet lately. I'll make a call. Maybe the bandwidth
is
getting used up as they expand service and now are adding phones onto
the
lines.

I think they're just not paying their "third party" enough to give a damn.
It just kills me with the lame excuses they give me when it happens. I think
you're right about it happening more on weekends


"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...
John, I've been having the same problem with Optimum for about two weeks.
If
I reply to a post, it'll show up if I look on google groups, but my news
reader doesn't get it, sometimes up to three hours. I've been complaining
to
Optimum, but getting nowhere. They tell me to expect "some latency", or
ask
me what browser I'm using, then they tell me the newsgroup servers are
farmed out to a third party, like that should mean something to me. Kinda
like beatin a dead horse



Thanks for letting me know Roy. I was wondering if it was just me. A few
years ago I kept having a problem every weekend with Optimum's newsgroup
servers. I called them several times and they said that they weren't
experiencing any problems and put the blame on my computer. After about
two
months the problem miraculously went away and I had changed nothing on my
system. They tout the quality and speed of their network so much that
maybe
they refuse to admit to a customer that there is a problem.



"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

I guess I'll take this one on since no one else wants it. LOL

Huh? How many people do you have kill-filed, for god's sake? Or maybe
your ISP is putting a six hour delay on articles.


Now that you mentioned it, I have noticed that my ISP's newsgroup
server
has
been dragging its feet lately. I'll make a call. Maybe the bandwidth
is
getting used up as they expand service and now are adding phones onto
the
lines.

Well, no luck for me. I must have a bigger problem than I realized. I did
the steps below, but with the power ON, none of the wires are hot -- not hot
when I put the tester from each wire to each other wire, and not hot when I
put the tester from each wire to the metal switch boxes.

It hasn't worked since I bought the house a long time ago, so something else
must be wrong somewhere. I have knob and tube wiring.

"BETA-32" wrote in message
...
That's a great explanation. It makes me want to try it for a similar
problem that I have and haven't been able to figure out.

In my case, I only have two 3-way switches to figure out (no 4-ways).
But, I have knob and tube wiring in my house instead of more modern
two-wire wiring. I'm guessing (hoping) that won't make any difference. I
have spent forever trying to figure mine out and basically had given up.

"Terry" wrote in message
...

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

Because knob and tube is not grounded, the wires might be hot and your
don't have a tester that will sense it.

Try one of these. Test it by putting in in a known hot outlet before
using.

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/...tagetester.htm




On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:14:45 -0500, "BETA-32"
wrote:

Well, no luck for me. I must have a bigger problem than I realized. I did
the steps below, but with the power ON, none of the wires are hot -- not hot
when I put the tester from each wire to each other wire, and not hot when I
put the tester from each wire to the metal switch boxes.

It hasn't worked since I bought the house a long time ago, so something else
must be wrong somewhere. I have knob and tube wiring.

"BETA-32" wrote in message
...
That's a great explanation. It makes me want to try it for a similar
problem that I have and haven't been able to figure out.

In my case, I only have two 3-way switches to figure out (no 4-ways).
But, I have knob and tube wiring in my house instead of more modern
two-wire wiring. I'm guessing (hoping) that won't make any difference. I
have spent forever trying to figure mine out and basically had given up.

"Terry" wrote in message
...

Turn the power off and disconnect all switches.

Turn the power on and use a tester to find the only wire in the bunch
that is hot.

When you find the hot wire, turn the power off and wire the hot wire
to the black screw on the 3-way switch and connect the other two wires
to the other two terminals. (This switch is done)

Turn the power back on and go to the 4-way. One of these wires should
be hot. It will share another wire in the same cable. If you flip
the finished 3-way switch the other wire will become hot. Mark these
two. Turn the power back off and wire these two to the same color
screw terminals on the 4-way switch. Wire the other two wires in the
box to the other two screw terminals of the 4-way switch. (This
switch is done)

Turn the power back on and test the last box. One wire will be hot.
When you flip the switch another wire will go hot. The wire that does
not go hot in either position you will tie it to the black terminal on
the 3-way switch after you turn the power back off. Then wire the
remaining two wires to the other two terminals on the switch. (weekend
project done)

Then, next time, mark the wires or take pictures or do them one at a
time.

"Terry" wrote in message
...

So you have a light fixture that hasn't worked since you moved into
the house?

Yes. It's a hallway light, and that's the only thing that doesn't work.
All other lights, outlets, etc. work. I just assumed it would be something
routine like a bad 3-way switch. The switches were both old, so I bought
two and replaced both. I took off the light fixture and have just a bulb
and a socket wired to the two wires that went to the fixture.

wrote in message
...

use a 25 watt light bulb never a digital VOM it will give you unusable
readings by capitance coupling.

---------------------------------------

The type of device I am going to buy is like the one in this link, I think:

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/...tagetester.htm .

I'm guessing it's not really a volt meter. Instead, I think it is a device
that you touch to one wire (not two) to see if it is "hot". I'm not sure
that type of device could work by touching a wire that no current is flowing
through, but I saw a heater guy using one (he was in love with it) and he
claimed that even with no current flowing, it can tell of the wire is a hot
wire or a ground. Beats me, but for around 15 bucks I'll have a new toy, so
I'm going to try it.

On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:25:52 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 30, 1:58?pm, "BETA-32" wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote in message

...



That's understandable. ?The boxes are not grounded in a knob and tube
wiring
system and the other wires are not neutral conductors. ?Run a long wire
from
a metal water pipe or from the neutral bar in your fuse box and use that
as
the second conductor for your tester. ?You should be able to find the hot
that way.

Thanks again. ?I tried that and it didn't work. ?I connected the wire to a
metal cold water pipe near each of the switches and tried using that as the
second wire for the test. ?So, something else is apparently goofed up
somewhere. ?I'm going to buy one of those voltage testers today and see if I
have any luck with that. ?I doubt it, but it's worth a try.

use a 25 watt light bulb never a digital VOM it will give you unusable
readings by capitance coupling

He is going to get an inductance pocket tester which is about all that
will work with knob and tube. (and a "for sure" bonded water pipe)

BETA-32 wrote:
wrote in message
...

use a 25 watt light bulb never a digital VOM it will give you unusable
readings by capitance coupling.

---------------------------------------

The type of device I am going to buy is like the one in this link, I think:

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/...tagetester.htm .

I'm guessing it's not really a volt meter. Instead, I think it is a device
that you touch to one wire (not two) to see if it is "hot". I'm not sure
that type of device could work by touching a wire that no current is flowing
through, but I saw a heater guy using one (he was in love with it) and he
claimed that even with no current flowing, it can tell of the wire is a hot
wire or a ground. Beats me, but for around 15 bucks I'll have a new toy, so
I'm going to try it.

You are correct, it detects voltage and will detect a "hot" wire. You
don't need current flow in the wire - there will be voltage with or
without current. ("Indicates live current" in the description is
technical illiteracy.) Real handy for K&T. It is non-contact - you just
touch the outside of the wire insulation. Neon test lights can also be
used but require contact.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
You are correct, it detects voltage and will detect a "hot" wire. You
don't need current flow in the wire - there will be voltage with or
without current. ("Indicates live current" in the description is technical
illiteracy.) Real handy for K&T. It is non-contact - you just touch the
outside of the wire insulation. Neon test lights can also be used but
require contact.

Thanks. That "Indicates live current" wording did have me wondering. I
didn't get to go and buy one yesterday but I will today.

Well, I bought the toy and it works great. But, in my case, none of the
wires that go to either 3-way switch are "hot". Same for the wires to the
actual hallway light. So, there must be a broken wire or bad connection
somewhere else in the circuit.

"BETA-33" wrote in message
. ..
"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
You are correct, it detects voltage and will detect a "hot" wire. You
don't need current flow in the wire - there will be voltage with or
without current. ("Indicates live current" in the description is
technical illiteracy.) Real handy for K&T. It is non-contact - you just
touch the outside of the wire insulation. Neon test lights can also be
used but require contact.

Thanks. That "Indicates live current" wording did have me wondering. I
didn't get to go and buy one yesterday but I will today.

Attic and basement are real good ideas. Your new toy should be a big help.

If you get stuck, another method of attack is check continuity between
possible ends of wires to see what the actual wiring is. Include the
light sockets. (I would also verify the socket screwshell connects to
the neutral.) When measuring continuity you have to watch there is not
voltage between the wires. If you don't have a good understanding of
3-way and 4-way switches (one of the switches was 4-way?) this method
may not help. If you work out what the wiring is you can determine which
wire should be the hot feed and trace it. K&T wiring problems can be a
PITA.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
I will be heading for the attic in a day or two, especially now that I have
the tester.

Both 3-ways have only 3 wires and it doesn't look like any wiring was
removed from either one. It all looks like the dusty old original wiring,
and the switches I took out and replaced look like they were the original
switches -- ancient.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
That sounds right. If you can see the wiring from the attic or
basement would be the next place to go for clues.

Trying to re feed the switch from another circuit sounds like the only
way to continue.

Do each 3-ways have only 3 wires? Does it look like wiring has been
removed from any of the boxes?

Thanks. A long time ago, I did use a continuity checker and tagged each of
the 3 wires for each 3-way switch and the two wires for the light fixture.
I have them numbered so that #1 on one end is directly connected to #1 on
the other end, etc. Of course, after I did that, I had no idea what to do
with the information.

And, no, there are no 4-way switches -- just two 3-way switches.

"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Attic and basement are real good ideas. Your new toy should be a big help.

If you get stuck, another method of attack is check continuity between
possible ends of wires to see what the actual wiring is. Include the light
sockets. (I would also verify the socket screwshell connects to the
neutral.) When measuring continuity you have to watch there is not voltage
between the wires. If you don't have a good understanding of 3-way and
4-way switches (one of the switches was 4-way?) this method may not help.
If you work out what the wiring is you can determine which wire should be
the hot feed and trace it. K&T wiring problems can be a PITA.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
I will be heading for the attic in a day or two, especially now that I
have the tester.

Both 3-ways have only 3 wires and it doesn't look like any wiring was
removed from either one. It all looks like the dusty old original
wiring, and the switches I took out and replaced look like they were the
original switches -- ancient.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
That sounds right. If you can see the wiring from the attic or
basement would be the next place to go for clues.

Trying to re feed the switch from another circuit sounds like the only
way to continue.

Do each 3-ways have only 3 wires? Does it look like wiring has been
removed from any of the boxes?

There are 2 ways a 3-way might be connected with K&T. In both, 2 wires
go between the 3-way switches. And at one end the 3rd wire goes to the
light socket connection to the end of the light bulbs.

==================
In one way of wiring, the 3rd wire at the other switch goes to the other
(screwshell) terminal at the light sockets. This is not a good way to
wire a light.

==================
The other (more likely and preferred) way of wiring a 3-way, the other
wire at the 2nd switch does not connect to the light socket. **This will
be the hot feed to trace.

(With both wiring methods the 2 wires between the switches connect to
the same-colored terminals on the 3-way switches.)

======================
Don't know if you noticed - Terry started a 2nd thread on this 2-1.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
Thanks. A long time ago, I did use a continuity checker and tagged each of
the 3 wires for each 3-way switch and the two wires for the light fixture.
I have them numbered so that #1 on one end is directly connected to #1 on
the other end, etc. Of course, after I did that, I had no idea what to do
with the information.

And, no, there are no 4-way switches -- just two 3-way switches.

I remembered long ago there were 3 switches and didn't want to go back
through the thread to check. So there should be 2 switches.


"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Attic and basement are real good ideas. Your new toy should be a big help.

If you get stuck, another method of attack is check continuity between
possible ends of wires to see what the actual wiring is. Include the light
sockets. (I would also verify the socket screwshell connects to the
neutral.) When measuring continuity you have to watch there is not voltage
between the wires. If you don't have a good understanding of 3-way and
4-way switches (one of the switches was 4-way?) this method may not help.
If you work out what the wiring is you can determine which wire should be
the hot feed and trace it. K&T wiring problems can be a PITA.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
I will be heading for the attic in a day or two, especially now that I
have the tester.

Both 3-ways have only 3 wires and it doesn't look like any wiring was
removed from either one. It all looks like the dusty old original
wiring, and the switches I took out and replaced look like they were the
original switches -- ancient.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
That sounds right. If you can see the wiring from the attic or
basement would be the next place to go for clues.

Trying to re feed the switch from another circuit sounds like the only
way to continue.

Do each 3-ways have only 3 wires? Does it look like wiring has been
removed from any of the boxes?

Thanks. I'll have to check this out a little more on Tuesday. Between now
and then I won't be home while it's daylight outside when I can see
everything with and without the power on.

I went into the attic this morning, and part of the floor is already up from
when I was working on it before. But I have to take another board up to
access above the light, and I didn't have time to do that today.

I didn't see the other thread that Terry started on this, but I'll go there
now.

"bud--" wrote in message
...
There are 2 ways a 3-way might be connected with K&T. In both, 2 wires go
between the 3-way switches. And at one end the 3rd wire goes to the light
socket connection to the end of the light bulbs.

==================
In one way of wiring, the 3rd wire at the other switch goes to the other
(screwshell) terminal at the light sockets. This is not a good way to wire
a light.

==================
The other (more likely and preferred) way of wiring a 3-way, the other
wire at the 2nd switch does not connect to the light socket. **This will
be the hot feed to trace.

(With both wiring methods the 2 wires between the switches connect to the
same-colored terminals on the 3-way switches.)

======================
Don't know if you noticed - Terry started a 2nd thread on this 2-1.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
Thanks. A long time ago, I did use a continuity checker and tagged each
of the 3 wires for each 3-way switch and the two wires for the light
fixture. I have them numbered so that #1 on one end is directly
connected to #1 on the other end, etc. Of course, after I did that, I
had no idea what to do with the information.

And, no, there are no 4-way switches -- just two 3-way switches.

I remembered long ago there were 3 switches and didn't want to go back
through the thread to check. So there should be 2 switches.


"bud--" wrote in message
.. .
Attic and basement are real good ideas. Your new toy should be a big
help.

If you get stuck, another method of attack is check continuity between
possible ends of wires to see what the actual wiring is. Include the
light sockets. (I would also verify the socket screwshell connects to
the neutral.) When measuring continuity you have to watch there is not
voltage between the wires. If you don't have a good understanding of
3-way and 4-way switches (one of the switches was 4-way?) this method
may not help. If you work out what the wiring is you can determine which
wire should be the hot feed and trace it. K&T wiring problems can be a
PITA.

--
bud--


BETA-33 wrote:
I will be heading for the attic in a day or two, especially now that I
have the tester.

Both 3-ways have only 3 wires and it doesn't look like any wiring was
removed from either one. It all looks like the dusty old original
wiring, and the switches I took out and replaced look like they were
the original switches -- ancient.

"Terry" wrote in message
...
That sounds right. If you can see the wiring from the attic or
basement would be the next place to go for clues.

Trying to re feed the switch from another circuit sounds like the only
way to continue.

Do each 3-ways have only 3 wires? Does it look like wiring has been
removed from any of the boxes?