Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I
have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in this
system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home
Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings in
energy.........tia

wrote in message
...
Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I
have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in
this
system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home
Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings
in
energy.........tia

Is this copper for baseboard heat? If so, insulate the crawlspace as that
would be wasted heat loss. The heat in the basement helps to heat the
house.

This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100' additional
3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is
insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia

wrote in message
...
This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100'
additional
3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is
insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia

In that case, if you insulate heater feed portion in the basement it will
get even colder.

Insulating the tubing to the faucets will allow them to retain the heat
longer. Overnight it won't make much difference, but for shorter times
between use it may be a help so you don't have to wait for hot water to
wash.

In any case, it will be a long payback for $100.

Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn
down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water
coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something
in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO.

On Nov 26, 11:06 am, wrote:
Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn
down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water
coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something
in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO.

Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the
temperature of the water.

yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation.

s


wrote in message
...
Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn
down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water
coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something
in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO.

In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote:

yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation.

s



Well, technically, he's correct. Now, the only question is, does the
temperature increase by 1/10 of a degree, or only 1/100?

the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.


s


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote:

yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation.

s



Well, technically, he's correct. Now, the only question is, does the
temperature increase by 1/10 of a degree, or only 1/100?

On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker"

wrote:
the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.

There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap.
That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may
result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches
the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER
than if the pipes are not insulated.

This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to
substantiate my theory...

I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of
the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be
accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater.
We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you
could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the
amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the
insulation would be extensive.

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:24:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Nov 26, 11:06 am, wrote:
Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn
down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water
coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something
in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO.

Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the
temperature of the water.

It wouldn't. It would decrease the decrease (heat loss) you'd have
without insulation.

On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:01:39 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker"

wrote:
the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.

There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap.
That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may
result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches
the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER
than if the pipes are not insulated.

This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to
substantiate my theory...

I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of
the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be
accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater.
We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you
could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the
amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the
insulation would be extensive.

There are many variables to consider. How often is the hot water
called for? Does the pipe completely cool down to the ambient temp
between uses? Copper is an EXCELLENT conductor of heat. Notice how
long it takes for the water to reach it's maximum temp at the faucet
when you turn it on. It starts out cold, and it takes some time to
reheat the pipe before it gets really hot.

-- Regardless of ROI, the water at the tap WILL be hotter, which is
all I said, after you and Steve Farker seemed to say it wouldn't

Well, if you'll review the thread, I believe you'll find that you said
it will be hotter *before* I ever said anything. In fact, I don't
think you'll find any point in this thread where I said it wouldn't be
hotter at the tap.

However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter".
You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH
to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion.

Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but
even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by
itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow
the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water.

And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through
the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes
to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps
*enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I
have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the
temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is
so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the
adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately
compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot".

Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's
question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate
the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is
because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH
cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down,
and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few
feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is
negligible.

In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote:

the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.


s



yeah, but... it's the temperature at the spigot that counts. That will
be (imperceptibly) warmer. Perhaps it would be more correct to say, it
won't lose as much heat.

Keeping things in perspective, $100 is not a big deal, is it? It's not like
you're weighing spending $20,000 on new windows. Why not do it, if only for
the environment?

I insulated my pipes, albeit in a heated basement, and was able to turn my
HWH down a tick, and still maintain the same temperature at the tap. How
much that saves me I don't know, and it isn't worth taking the time to
calculate.

It also made the house quieter when someone was taking a bath, etc.


wrote in message
...
Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I
have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in
this
system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home
Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings
in
energy.........tia

On Nov 26, 5:50 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:59:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter".
You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH
to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion.


I NEVER said that. Go back and look.

You are correct sir, I quoted the wrong poster. We're even, I didn't
say the water wouldn't be hotter at the tap, as you claimed I did (or
claimed I "seemed" to say) and you didn't say it would get too hot, as
I claimed you did. Call it a wash.


Here's what you said, though:

"Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the
temperature of the water."

It clearly WILL raise the temp at the point of use.

Again, I never said it wouldn't. All I did was ask for an explanation.
Why are you reading so much into that question? Go back and read the
rest of my posts. I have agreed a number of times that there will be
heat loss from both standing water and flowing water in an uninsulated
pipe. My only addition to that fact is that I feel the temperature
difference at the tap will be so minimal as to be negligible.


Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but
even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by
itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow
the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water.

Are you daft? There is heat loss when hot water is running through the pipe, as
well as when the pipe sits idle.

Interesting comment. Either you didn't read my next statement, where I
clearly agreed that there is heat loss as the water is running through
the pipe, or you read it and felt no need to remove the "daft"
comment. Perhaps you forgot you wrote it by the time you finished
reading the following sentence?

Please allow me to quote myself: "And yes, there is heat loss as the
"new" water is traveling through the pipe"



And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through
the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes
to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps
*enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I
have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the
temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is
so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the
adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately
compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot".

If I look up "assume" in the dictionary, can I expect to see your picture? LOL

OK, be honest, tell me - Do *you* think the end user is going to
notice the difference between the hot water at the tap from an
insulated basement pipe vs. an uninsulated pipe? Perhaps they will
notice the difference in the time it takes to get hot water to the
tap, but do you think they will notice a difference in the
temperature? Do you think it will be enough to require the HWH to be
turned down? Please don't read any more into those questions than
there is. I'm actually curious to know if you think the insulation
will make a humanly perceivable difference in the temperature of the
water at the tap.



Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's
question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate
the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is
because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH
cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down,
and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few
feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is
negligible.


Immaterial and irrelevant to all previous discussion

How so? A major part of this discussion is whether insulated the
water pipes in the basement would make sense. I simply pointed out a
particular section of piping that will certainly make sense,
especially in light of the fact that tap water from a HWH is part of
the "previous discussion".

after a short period to warm the pipe, i doubt if you'd see a difference a
thermometer could measure.


s


wrote in message
...
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to
get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.



There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap.
That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may
result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches
the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER
than if the pipes are not insulated.

farker?

s

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:01:39 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03





wrote:
On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker"

wrote:
the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going
to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.

There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap.
That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may
result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches
the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER
than if the pipes are not insulated.

This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to
substantiate my theory...

I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of
the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be
accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater.
We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you
could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the
amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the
insulation would be extensive.

There are many variables to consider. How often is the hot water
called for? Does the pipe completely cool down to the ambient temp
between uses? Copper is an EXCELLENT conductor of heat. Notice how
long it takes for the water to reach it's maximum temp at the faucet
when you turn it on. It starts out cold, and it takes some time to
reheat the pipe before it gets really hot.

-- Regardless of ROI, the water at the tap WILL be hotter, which is
all I said, after you and Steve Farker seemed to say it wouldn't

Well, if you'll review the thread, I believe you'll find that you said
it will be hotter *before* I ever said anything. In fact, I don't
think you'll find any point in this thread where I said it wouldn't be
hotter at the tap.

However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter".
You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH
to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion.

Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but
even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by
itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow
the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water.

And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through
the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes
to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps
*enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I
have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the
temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is
so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the
adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately
compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot".

Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's
question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate
the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is
because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH
cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down,
and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few
feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is
negligible.

the insulation could be put to better use on the cold pipes to keep them
from sweating in the summer.

s


"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote:

the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to
get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it.


s



yeah, but... it's the temperature at the spigot that counts. That will
be (imperceptibly) warmer. Perhaps it would be more correct to say, it
won't lose as much heat.

I hate waiting for hot water. Also, why not heat the living space only?
You need the heat in the living room not next to the slop sink.

wrote in message
...
This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100'
additional
3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is
insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia