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#1
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I
have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in this system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings in energy.........tia |
#2
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
wrote in message ... Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in this system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings in energy.........tia Is this copper for baseboard heat? If so, insulate the crawlspace as that would be wasted heat loss. The heat in the basement helps to heat the house. |
#3
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100' additional
3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia |
#4
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
wrote in message ... This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100' additional 3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia In that case, if you insulate heater feed portion in the basement it will get even colder. Insulating the tubing to the faucets will allow them to retain the heat longer. Overnight it won't make much difference, but for shorter times between use it may be a help so you don't have to wait for hot water to wash. In any case, it will be a long payback for $100. |
#5
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn
down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO. |
#6
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
On Nov 26, 11:06 am, wrote:
Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO. Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the temperature of the water. |
#7
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation.
s wrote in message ... Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO. |
#8
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote: yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation. s Well, technically, he's correct. Now, the only question is, does the temperature increase by 1/10 of a degree, or only 1/100? |
#9
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get
hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. s "Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , "Steve Barker" wrote: yes, do tell about the temperature increase due to insulation. s Well, technically, he's correct. Now, the only question is, does the temperature increase by 1/10 of a degree, or only 1/100? |
#10
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap. That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER than if the pipes are not insulated. This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to substantiate my theory... I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater. We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the insulation would be extensive. |
#11
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 08:24:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Nov 26, 11:06 am, wrote: Insulate all you can. Once you are done you should be able to turn down the setting on your water heater to compensate (since water coming out fo the tap wil be too hot). That will save you something in the long run. worth it for the ease and extra comfort IMO. Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the temperature of the water. It wouldn't. It would decrease the decrease (heat loss) you'd have without insulation. |
#12
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:01:39 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap. That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER than if the pipes are not insulated. This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to substantiate my theory... I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater. We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the insulation would be extensive. There are many variables to consider. How often is the hot water called for? Does the pipe completely cool down to the ambient temp between uses? Copper is an EXCELLENT conductor of heat. Notice how long it takes for the water to reach it's maximum temp at the faucet when you turn it on. It starts out cold, and it takes some time to reheat the pipe before it gets really hot. -- Regardless of ROI, the water at the tap WILL be hotter, which is all I said, after you and Steve Farker seemed to say it wouldn't Well, if you'll review the thread, I believe you'll find that you said it will be hotter *before* I ever said anything. In fact, I don't think you'll find any point in this thread where I said it wouldn't be hotter at the tap. However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter". You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion. Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water. And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps *enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot". Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down, and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is negligible. |
#13
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
In article ,
"Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. s yeah, but... it's the temperature at the spigot that counts. That will be (imperceptibly) warmer. Perhaps it would be more correct to say, it won't lose as much heat. |
#14
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
Keeping things in perspective, $100 is not a big deal, is it? It's not like
you're weighing spending $20,000 on new windows. Why not do it, if only for the environment? I insulated my pipes, albeit in a heated basement, and was able to turn my HWH down a tick, and still maintain the same temperature at the tap. How much that saves me I don't know, and it isn't worth taking the time to calculate. It also made the house quieter when someone was taking a bath, etc. wrote in message ... Live in zone 5 have 1900 square foot house, and boiler/hot water heat. I have about 400' of 3/4 and 1 inch copper in basement and crawl space in this system....Is it worth the effort to insulate these things? I checked Home Depot and a little over $100.00 to do the job...Any Idea how much savings in energy.........tia |
#15
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
On Nov 26, 5:50 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:59:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03 wrote: However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter". You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion. I NEVER said that. Go back and look. You are correct sir, I quoted the wrong poster. We're even, I didn't say the water wouldn't be hotter at the tap, as you claimed I did (or claimed I "seemed" to say) and you didn't say it would get too hot, as I claimed you did. Call it a wash. Here's what you said, though: "Please explain how insulating the pipes to the tap will increase the temperature of the water." It clearly WILL raise the temp at the point of use. Again, I never said it wouldn't. All I did was ask for an explanation. Why are you reading so much into that question? Go back and read the rest of my posts. I have agreed a number of times that there will be heat loss from both standing water and flowing water in an uninsulated pipe. My only addition to that fact is that I feel the temperature difference at the tap will be so minimal as to be negligible. Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water. Are you daft? There is heat loss when hot water is running through the pipe, as well as when the pipe sits idle. Interesting comment. Either you didn't read my next statement, where I clearly agreed that there is heat loss as the water is running through the pipe, or you read it and felt no need to remove the "daft" comment. Perhaps you forgot you wrote it by the time you finished reading the following sentence? Please allow me to quote myself: "And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through the pipe" And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps *enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot". If I look up "assume" in the dictionary, can I expect to see your picture? LOL OK, be honest, tell me - Do *you* think the end user is going to notice the difference between the hot water at the tap from an insulated basement pipe vs. an uninsulated pipe? Perhaps they will notice the difference in the time it takes to get hot water to the tap, but do you think they will notice a difference in the temperature? Do you think it will be enough to require the HWH to be turned down? Please don't read any more into those questions than there is. I'm actually curious to know if you think the insulation will make a humanly perceivable difference in the temperature of the water at the tap. Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down, and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is negligible. Immaterial and irrelevant to all previous discussion How so? A major part of this discussion is whether insulated the water pipes in the basement would make sense. I simply pointed out a particular section of piping that will certainly make sense, especially in light of the fact that tap water from a HWH is part of the "previous discussion". |
#16
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
after a short period to warm the pipe, i doubt if you'd see a difference a
thermometer could measure. s wrote in message ... On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap. That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER than if the pipes are not insulated. |
#17
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
farker?
s "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ... On Nov 26, 2:13 pm, wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:01:39 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Nov 26, 12:29 pm, wrote: On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 11:23:56 -0600, "Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. There is heat loss from the pipes between the heater and the tap. That's why the pipe feels hot if you touch it. Insulated pipes may result in the water being closer to the original temp when it reaches the point of use. In other words, the water at the tap will be HOTTER than if the pipes are not insulated. This is all off the top of my head, with no underlying data to substantiate my theory... I submit that in a residential environment, the amount of heat loss of the water traveling through the pipes will be less than can be accurately compensated for by the thermostat knob on the water heater. We're not talking about precision instruments here, and even if you could adjust the stat to compensate for the "reduced heat loss" the amount of heat loss is so minimal that that the payback period for the insulation would be extensive. There are many variables to consider. How often is the hot water called for? Does the pipe completely cool down to the ambient temp between uses? Copper is an EXCELLENT conductor of heat. Notice how long it takes for the water to reach it's maximum temp at the faucet when you turn it on. It starts out cold, and it takes some time to reheat the pipe before it gets really hot. -- Regardless of ROI, the water at the tap WILL be hotter, which is all I said, after you and Steve Farker seemed to say it wouldn't Well, if you'll review the thread, I believe you'll find that you said it will be hotter *before* I ever said anything. In fact, I don't think you'll find any point in this thread where I said it wouldn't be hotter at the tap. However, you didn't just say "the water at the tap will be hotter". You said it would be "too hot" and that the OP could turn down his HWH to compensate. I think that is where we have a difference of opinion. Yes, there will be heat loss when the water stands in the pipe, but even if you were able to insulate against that from happening, that by itself would not raise the temperature at the tap, it would only allow the tap to produce hot water quicker, thus saving water. And yes, there is heat loss as the "new" water is traveling through the pipe, but the only point I was making is that insulating the pipes to prevent that heat loss will not raise the temperature at the taps *enough* that the thermostat can be lowered. As I implied earlier, I have never measured the temp as it left the HWH and compared it to the temp as it came out of the tap, but I'm guessing that the heat loss is so minimal that (1) the user wouldn't even notice it and (2) the adjustment on the average HWH isn't precise enough to accurately compensate for it. In other words, it wouldn't be "too hot". Now, to actually offer something in direct answer to the OP's question, I have read that if you do nothing else, you should insulate the first few feet of the hot water pipe as it leaves the HWH. This is because heat rises and as the vertical section of pipe at the HWH cools, it can draw heat from the water in the tank, cooling it down, and causing the tank to cycle more often. Once you get more than few feet away, the heat draw begins to decrease to a point where it is negligible. |
#18
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
the insulation could be put to better use on the cold pipes to keep them
from sweating in the summer. s "Smitty Two" wrote in message news In article , "Steve Barker" wrote: the water leaves the heater at a certain temperature. It's not going to get hotter, i don't care if you wrap 12 inches of cellulose on it. s yeah, but... it's the temperature at the spigot that counts. That will be (imperceptibly) warmer. Perhaps it would be more correct to say, it won't lose as much heat. |
#19
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Worthwhile to insulate hot water pipes in basement?
I hate waiting for hot water. Also, why not heat the living space only?
You need the heat in the living room not next to the slop sink. wrote in message ... This is 400' of copper for baseboard heating there is about 100' additional 3/4 and 1/2 inch hot water to faucets and shower....the crawl space is insulated and the basement is not .... both get real cold in winter. tia |
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