I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?

HamNCheese wrote:
I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?

This sounds odd to me, how many cables are in the box and which wire
colors are in the cable?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?

That is with the breaker off, right?
How were the wires connected to the outlet?

For the moment I will guess that the hot white comes from something that is
turned on, so it has voltage.
If you turned the breaker on you would see voltage on the red.
But that is a guess, subject to answers to the questions.

i had a light fixture sort of like this and the hot white was a ground
coming back. took me an hour to understand that on earth the previous
owner had done. i believe you should do some careful investigating
before making any assumptions, like why the heck you got one red and
two whites - you should have one black and one white, or 2 of each if
the circuit continues on.

you should not see a red wire except for a 3-way switch. it really
sounds like some previous owner jacked the thing up and now you get to
figure it out...

wrote in message
ps.com...
i had a light fixture sort of like this and the hot white was a ground
coming back. took me an hour to understand that on earth the previous
owner had done. i believe you should do some careful investigating
before making any assumptions, like why the heck you got one red and
two whites - you should have one black and one white, or 2 of each if
the circuit continues on.

you should not see a red wire except for a 3-way switch. it really
sounds like some previous owner jacked the thing up and now you get to
figure it out...

That's not true; there are several reasons why there would be a red wire.
Now the two white wires are odd, but not the red wire.

For the moment I will guess that the hot white comes from something that is
turned on, so it has voltage.
If you turned the breaker on you would see voltage on the red.


OK, you're onto something here. Here's some more info.

Yes, if I turn on the breaker, I get 110v between the red wire and
*one* of the white wires.

If I test between the red wire and the *other* white wire, I get 220v.

If I test between the "hot" white wire and ground (the outlet box) I
get 110v.

Next I turned off the breaker to the refrigerator, which is on the
other side of the wall of the outlet in question. Sure enough, the
"hot" white wire on the washer/dryer outlet went dead, too.

So is this a case where the refrigerator closes a circuit and sends
power through the white wire which is then looping on to the
washer/dryer outlet?

And now the question beckons, (a) is this dangerous in any way, and
(b) how am I supposed to hook up a GFCI outlet to this line? Is it
even possible? I'm also wondering if I put the GFCI on the
refrigerator outlet instead, is the washer/dryer outlet considered
downstream of it so that I would get GFCI protection on both circuits?

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.




"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.



If the two white wires are connected to the same outlet terminal, as
they were, isn't this doing what you mention?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.


And is it possible for a GFCI be placed on this circuit, or on the
other outlet that is sharing the neutral, or on both?

The danger, and the reason the neutral can't be dependent upon a device, is
that if there is an open neutral situation, you get a 240 volt circuit
feeding 120 volt devices. It is much more reliable to splice them
independently and pigtail the outlet. Yes, you can install a GFCI on either
of the circuits




"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two
circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.


And is it possible for a GFCI be placed on this circuit, or on the
other outlet that is sharing the neutral, or on both?

So is this a case where the refrigerator closes a circuit and sends
power through the white wire which is then looping on to the
washer/dryer outlet?

Correct. Presumably the refrigerator is not able to run unless the two
white wires are connected?
And now the question beckons, (a) is this dangerous in any way, and

Only if you don't know what is going on. I don't like multiwire circuits
for that reason. A previous owner of my house changed the breakers so that
both were on the same leg. Could have burnt the house down.

(b) how am I supposed to hook up a GFCI outlet to this line? Is it
even possible?

Just wire it normally. Both white wires go to the input side; or pigtail
them as someone else suggested.

I'm also wondering if I put the GFCI on the
refrigerator outlet instead, is the washer/dryer outlet considered
downstream of it so that I would get GFCI protection on both circuits?

You probably don't want a GFCI on a refrigerator, and it wouldn't affect
this circuit anyhow.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:49:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The danger, and the reason the neutral can't be dependent upon a device, is
that if there is an open neutral situation, you get a 240 volt circuit
feeding 120 volt devices. It is much more reliable to splice them
independently and pigtail the outlet. Yes, you can install a GFCI on either
of the circuits


Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

The only wires you want to keep together are the whites. There are two
circuits involved, the red wire was on one of them and in the box, you'll
find two black wires spliced together, they are the second circuit


"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:49:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The danger, and the reason the neutral can't be dependent upon a device,
is
that if there is an open neutral situation, you get a 240 volt circuit
feeding 120 volt devices. It is much more reliable to splice them
independently and pigtail the outlet. Yes, you can install a GFCI on
either
of the circuits


Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

Just to clarify: It is a code violation to connect both Neutral wires (of a
multiwire) to any outlet or device, they must be pigtailed or connected so
as not to be dependent upon the device


"Toller" wrote in message
...
So is this a case where the refrigerator closes a circuit and sends
power through the white wire which is then looping on to the
washer/dryer outlet?

Correct. Presumably the refrigerator is not able to run unless the two
white wires are connected?
And now the question beckons, (a) is this dangerous in any way, and

Only if you don't know what is going on. I don't like multiwire circuits
for that reason. A previous owner of my house changed the breakers so
that both were on the same leg. Could have burnt the house down.

(b) how am I supposed to hook up a GFCI outlet to this line? Is it
even possible?

Just wire it normally. Both white wires go to the input side; or pigtail
them as someone else suggested.

I'm also wondering if I put the GFCI on the
refrigerator outlet instead, is the washer/dryer outlet considered
downstream of it so that I would get GFCI protection on both circuits?

You probably don't want a GFCI on a refrigerator, and it wouldn't affect
this circuit anyhow.

Washing machines will false trip GFCIs and like refrigerators and
freezers arent required to be on a GFCI.

been there done that.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.




"HamNCheese" wrote in message
.. .
I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?


I thought it was code that both breakers of an Edison circuit had to
be ganged together so what just happened here cant happen. Is this
true?

-dickm

In article , wrote:

I thought it was code that both breakers of an Edison circuit had to
be ganged together so what just happened here cant happen. Is this
true?

No. The U.S. NEC requires tied breakers only if there's at least one device on
the circuit that's supplied by both legs (e.g. a duplex receptacle with the
tie-bar removed on the hot side, and each half of the receptacle supplied by a
different leg).

IMO that's a serious flaw in the Code -- I think tied breakers should *always*
be used on Edison circuits.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"dicko" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:12:05 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

What you have is an incorrectly wired Edison circuit. There are two
circuits
sharing that neutral. You only killed the one circuit, so when you
disconnected one neutral, you got a shock as the other hot of the circuit
was unable to return through the now open neutrals. To wire this properly,
the two neutrals cannot be dependent on a device, they must be spliced
together then pigtailed to the outlet.




"HamNCheese" wrote in message
. ..
I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?


I thought it was code that both breakers of an Edison circuit had to
be ganged together so what just happened here cant happen. Is this
true?

No, it isn't. Should be, if only to ensure it actually IS an Edison
circuit.

On Nov 11, 6:44 pm, HamNCheese wrote:
Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

I am not sure if this is what you have. But upon first reading, this
sounds like a shared neutral. If refrigerator and washer/dryer are
not on separate phases, then a very dangerous fire hazard exists.
Both circuits should be a dual circuit breaker so that if one circuit
trips, then both trip.

If both circuits share a common neutral, then a GFCI in the circuit
breaker box with constantly trip and both circuits must be GFCIed.
But refrigerators must not be on a GFCI according to code.

If it is a shared neutral, the best solution is to run a new circuit
either to refrigerator or to washer dryer. A shared neutral must be
performed with care to avoid fire.

"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:49:17 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

The danger, and the reason the neutral can't be dependent upon a device,
is
that if there is an open neutral situation, you get a 240 volt circuit
feeding 120 volt devices. It is much more reliable to splice them
independently and pigtail the outlet. Yes, you can install a GFCI on
either
of the circuits


Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?
Yes, you created an open neutral by disconnecting the receptacle. The
neutrals should be pigtailed together so this cannot happen. You saw what
kind of hazard opening the neutral can create. Your wire routing is
incorrect if the black wire feeding the refrigerator does not come through
this box but everything will work normally if you just pigtail the white
wires and connect the pigtail to the line neutral terminal of the GFCI
outlet. Connect the red wire to the line hot terminal of the GFCI outlet.
Connect the ground, if used. All will be fine.

Don Young

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Just to clarify: It is a code violation to connect both Neutral wires (of
a multiwire) to any outlet or device, they must be pigtailed or connected
so as not to be dependent upon the device

Why does it matter?
I understand the two 120v circuits would suddenly be in series in a 240v
circuit if the wrong wire pulled out of the outlet, but you would have that
if the wrong wire pulled out of the pigtail; so I don't see the difference.
(assuming the outlet can safely take two wires...)

Got me, but I suppose, given some of the really cheap outlets , a pigtail is
just a more durable connection



"Toller" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Just to clarify: It is a code violation to connect both Neutral wires (of
a multiwire) to any outlet or device, they must be pigtailed or connected
so as not to be dependent upon the device

Why does it matter?
I understand the two 120v circuits would suddenly be in series in a 240v
circuit if the wrong wire pulled out of the outlet, but you would have
that if the wrong wire pulled out of the pigtail; so I don't see the
difference. (assuming the outlet can safely take two wires...)

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:43:46 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

So is this a case where the refrigerator closes a circuit and sends
power through the white wire which is then looping on to the
washer/dryer outlet?

Correct. Presumably the refrigerator is not able to run unless the two
white wires are connected?


No, actually it stall ran, or at least the light was on.



You probably don't want a GFCI on a refrigerator, and it wouldn't affect
this circuit anyhow.


I figured the refrigerator has water going to it from the icemaker, so
in the event of a leak it might be a good idea, no?

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:16:13 -0800, "
wrote:

Washing machines will false trip GFCIs and like refrigerators and
freezers arent required to be on a GFCI.



So far, the GFCI I put on the washer/dryer outlet works fine.

The one I tried on the refrigerator outlet kept tripping as soon as I
turned on the power.

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:21:31 -0800, w_tom wrote:

On Nov 11, 6:44 pm, HamNCheese wrote:
Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

I am not sure if this is what you have. But upon first reading, this
sounds like a shared neutral. If refrigerator and washer/dryer are
not on separate phases, then a very dangerous fire hazard exists.



How can I tell if the are on separate phases or not?





Both circuits should be a dual circuit breaker so that if one circuit
trips, then both trip.




They are on separate breakers.





If both circuits share a common neutral, then a GFCI in the circuit
breaker box with constantly trip and both circuits must be GFCIed.



I put the GFCI on one outlet (The washer/dryer with the one red line
and the two whites), seems to work fine. I tried it on the
refrigerator line but it kept tripping.

On Nov 11, 11:37 pm, HamNCheese wrote:
How can I tell if the are on separate phases or not?

Appreciate the concept. Determining what is good and bad by only
testing is risky. View correct wiring AND verify it separately with
numbers. Few problems are as dangerous as an improperly implemented
shared neutral.

Route an extension cord from refrigerator outlet to washer room.
The hot wire (smaller flat plug hole) from refrigerator to washer
circuit hot wire must measure 240 volts. The hot wire from each hot
wire receptacle to both neutrals (wider flat hole) (4 measurements)
must measure 120 volts.

Finally, wire colors in refrigerator and washer receptacles should
match colors attached to breaker box circuit breakers. Discover each
circuit breaker positioned in box on opposite phases. Only then do
you know (with certainty) that neutral wire will not be overloaded;
create a fire.

Reason for putting both circuits on a dual breaker: 1) while working
on one circuit, voltage from the other circuit would not accidentally
shock the worker. And 2) it would make it obvious that this is a
shared neutral - the next person should not make a mistake. Even if
you don't install that dual breaker, still, absolutely verify the
refrigerator and washer are on opposite phases.

A shared neutral will (should) not trip GFCIs in either receptacle.
The fact that a refrigerator GFCI trips would make me nervous (not as
nervous over the shared neutral). However, once that problem is
resolved, code says to not use a GFCI on refrigerators.

In article om, w_tom wrote:
But refrigerators must not be on a GFCI according to code.

Got a cite for that?

I didn't think so.

Putting a refrigerator on a GFCI is a dumb idea, but it's not a Code
violation.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , HamNCheese wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:21:31 -0800, w_tom wrote:

On Nov 11, 6:44 pm, HamNCheese wrote:
Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

I am not sure if this is what you have. But upon first reading, this
sounds like a shared neutral. If refrigerator and washer/dryer are
not on separate phases, then a very dangerous fire hazard exists.

How can I tell if the are on separate phases or not?

That depends on the breaker box, but generally speaking, odd-numbered breakers
are on one leg, even-numbered breakers on the other leg, e.g. (with the two
legs labelled A & B):

1 ------- A -------- 11
2 ------- B -------- 12
3 ------- A -------- 13
...
10 ----- B -------- 20

Both circuits should be a dual circuit breaker so that if one circuit
trips, then both trip.

They are on separate breakers.

Bad idea, but not necessarily a Code violation.

If both circuits share a common neutral, then a GFCI in the circuit
breaker box with constantly trip and both circuits must be GFCIed.

I put the GFCI on one outlet (The washer/dryer with the one red line
and the two whites), seems to work fine. I tried it on the
refrigerator line but it kept tripping.

That's why you shouldn't put a refrigerator on a GFCI.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . com, w_tom wrote:

The fact that a refrigerator GFCI trips would make me nervous (not as
nervous over the shared neutral). However, once that problem is
resolved, code says to not use a GFCI on refrigerators.

Horsepuckey.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Just to clarify: It is a code violation to connect both Neutral wires (of
a multiwire) to any outlet or device, they must be pigtailed or connected
so as not to be dependent upon the device

Why does it matter?
I understand the two 120v circuits would suddenly be in series in a 240v
circuit if the wrong wire pulled out of the outlet

That's why it matters!

, but you would have that
if the wrong wire pulled out of the pigtail; so I don't see the difference.
(assuming the outlet can safely take two wires...)

Remove the outlet -- to replace it, for example -- without killing *both*
legs of the Edison circuit, just the one feeding the outlet. If *any* load on
the other side of that circuit is switched on, one of the two neutral
conductors at the outlet suddenly has a 120V potential to ground, and to the
other one.

In my mind, this scenario is a better argument for changing the Code to
require handle-tied double pole breakers for all Edison circuits than it is
for requiring that the continuity of the neutral be independent of any device,
but there it is.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

HamNCheese wrote:
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:16:13 -0800, "
wrote:

Washing machines will false trip GFCIs and like refrigerators and
freezers arent required to be on a GFCI.



So far, the GFCI I put on the washer/dryer outlet works fine.

The one I tried on the refrigerator outlet kept tripping as soon as I
turned on the power.

It's the start up current required by the compressor. That's why GFCIs are
not recommended for refrigerators. Further, the plug for the fridge is
usually unaccesible to anything else, so the safety issue is greatly
diminished.

Back in one of your earlier posts you said:

"Yes, if I turn on the breaker, I get 110v between the red wire and
*one* of the white wires.

If I test between the red wire and the *other* white wire, I get 220v."

This proves that you are on separate phases





"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:21:31 -0800, w_tom wrote:

On Nov 11, 6:44 pm, HamNCheese wrote:
Haven't I created an open neutral situation by disconnecting this
outlet and leaving the hot return wire disconnected?

I am not sure if this is what you have. But upon first reading, this
sounds like a shared neutral. If refrigerator and washer/dryer are
not on separate phases, then a very dangerous fire hazard exists.



How can I tell if the are on separate phases or not?





Both circuits should be a dual circuit breaker so that if one circuit
trips, then both trip.




They are on separate breakers.





If both circuits share a common neutral, then a GFCI in the circuit
breaker box with constantly trip and both circuits must be GFCIed.



I put the GFCI on one outlet (The washer/dryer with the one red line
and the two whites), seems to work fine. I tried it on the
refrigerator line but it kept tripping.

washers and refrigerators shouldnt be GFCI protected because they
false trip. one day you will be away and come home finding your fridge
is warm because it false tripped.

washers may work fine for mmonths then trip out.

I have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE

jumping in in the middle of this thread. I'm having a bit of a time
understanding the code on the GFCI's in a basement area. I have a property
that'll have the laundry in the basement, also i have a sump pump. Now i've
read several places not to put washers or sump pumps on a GFCI, but the code
'seems' to indicate that all basement outlets should be GFCI. Can someone
help clarify this?

thanks

steve barker



wrote in message
ups.com...
Washing machines will false trip GFCIs and like refrigerators and
freezers arent required to be on a GFCI.

been there done that.

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:17:14 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Back in one of your earlier posts you said:

"Yes, if I turn on the breaker, I get 110v between the red wire and
*one* of the white wires.

If I test between the red wire and the *other* white wire, I get 220v."

This proves that you are on separate phases



That's what I was thinking... and since I disconnected the outlet
without turning the other shared neutral circuit off, it I had been on
the same phase wouldn't I have sent that circuit 240v and blown up the
refrigerator?

In article , bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, w_tom
wrote:

The fact that a refrigerator GFCI trips would make me nervous (not as
nervous over the shared neutral). However, once that problem is
resolved, code says to not use a GFCI on refrigerators.

Horsepuckey.


In fact, the NEC requires plug-in refrigerators and freezers in
commercial kitchens to be GFCI protected.

There is, however, no generalized prohibition on using GFCIs with
refrigerators, as w_tom claimed.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, w_tom wrote:

The fact that a refrigerator GFCI trips would make me nervous (not as
nervous over the shared neutral). However, once that problem is
resolved, code says to not use a GFCI on refrigerators.

Horsepuckey.


In fact, the NEC requires plug-in refrigerators and freezers in
commercial kitchens to be GFCI protected.

--
bud--

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:45:49 GMT, HamNCheese
wrote:

I'm trying to install a GFCI outlet on our (110v) washer and dryer. I
turned off the breaker and confirmed that the outlet was off. The I
opened the outlet: it has one red wire, and two white wires attached.
I figured as usual red was hot, white neutral, with white looping on
to some other outlet. But then I got a shock off the white wire. I
measured the voltage between the two white wires and I get 110v. If I
measure between the red and either white wire I get no voltage.

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? Are the colors just
backwards? And why does the breaker turn off the outlet but I still
get voltage on the line?

Turn off all breakers. Remove the meter from the socket.
Begin removing all wiring in the entire house, including the breaker
panel. When this is finished, throw away all wiring, outlets,
fixtures, breaker box, and anything else connected to the wiring.

Get your yellow pages, look up electricians, and call an electrician
and have the house re-wired.

Your house is incorrectly wired now and it's dangerous if you have
110v on a white wire. You could burn at any moment. Do not delay, do
this now.


-----
Call 911 if you see smoke or flame !!!!

If you had both hot legs live, then separated the neutrals, you would create
a 240 volt circuit, however if more than one thing was connected to that
circuit, they would be in series and would be sharing that 240 volts




"HamNCheese" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:17:14 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

Back in one of your earlier posts you said:

"Yes, if I turn on the breaker, I get 110v between the red wire and
*one* of the white wires.

If I test between the red wire and the *other* white wire, I get 220v."

This proves that you are on separate phases



That's what I was thinking... and since I disconnected the outlet
without turning the other shared neutral circuit off, it I had been on
the same phase wouldn't I have sent that circuit 240v and blown up the
refrigerator?

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like the NEC people are in cahoots with the
AFCI breaker people. Good thing our AHJ is just now changing to the 2006
IRC and IBC.
Sounds like i'll just put GFCI's on the washer and the sump pump and see if
it all stays on.

s


wrote in message
...

The basic "basement" rule is if it is unfinished space you need GFCI.
"Finished" generally refers to wall and floor coverings.
There is no exemption for refrigerators or washing machines. If either
are tripping a GFCI they are defective.
In the 2005 code all receptacles within 5 feet of a laundry sink are
required to be GFCI and in 2008 code AFCI is extended to all 15 and
20a receptacles. AFCI incorporates GF protection.