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Default Dumb question about copper piping

With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under the house to shut
off the water to the back deck and blow out the line with some compressed air.
Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn
valve with the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard of
the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing compressed air to
the valve would blow the water inside the house up until that point rather than
the water from that point outside.

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was going to solder in
another ported quarter turn valve... only this time to the outside of the water
line shutoff. When I tried to fit the valve on the now open piping, no amount
of stuffing and grunting would get the job done. A visit to the local borg
revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only they would fit the thinner M type piping.
I assume I've got L tubing which is just a little thicker.

Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some sort of reducer
(seems like more work than I want to do)? And why don't the borgs sell valves
that fit the tubing they sell? They've got both kinds of tubing but just the
smaller diameter valves. The immediate problem is solved: I blew out the line
under the deck after I cut it under the house. But I won't have more water out
there until I repair this.

Gents?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com




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Default Dumb question about copper piping

Are you putting to much turning pressure with the tubing cutter?if you are
this will be the result.
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under the house to
shut off the water to the back deck and blow out the line with some
compressed air. Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had
installed the quarter turn valve with the access port to the inside of the
house rather than outboard of the other seat/stem type valve. In other
words, introducing compressed air to the valve would blow the water inside
the house up until that point rather than the water from that point
outside.

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was going to
solder in another ported quarter turn valve... only this time to the
outside of the water line shutoff. When I tried to fit the valve on the
now open piping, no amount of stuffing and grunting would get the job
done. A visit to the local borg revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only
they would fit the thinner M type piping. I assume I've got L tubing which
is just a little thicker.

Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some sort of
reducer (seems like more work than I want to do)? And why don't the borgs
sell valves that fit the tubing they sell? They've got both kinds of
tubing but just the smaller diameter valves. The immediate problem is
solved: I blew out the line under the deck after I cut it under the
house. But I won't have more water out there until I repair this.

Gents?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com






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Default Dumb question about copper piping

Type M and Type L have the same outside diameter, just the wall thickness
changes. I have never seen a valve or fitting with a smaller diameter unless
it is intended for pipe other than standard nominal 1/2 copper tubing.

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under the house to
shut off the water to the back deck and blow out the line with some
compressed air. Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had
installed the quarter turn valve with the access port to the inside of the
house rather than outboard of the other seat/stem type valve. In other
words, introducing compressed air to the valve would blow the water inside
the house up until that point rather than the water from that point
outside.

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was going to
solder in another ported quarter turn valve... only this time to the
outside of the water line shutoff. When I tried to fit the valve on the
now open piping, no amount of stuffing and grunting would get the job
done. A visit to the local borg revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only
they would fit the thinner M type piping. I assume I've got L tubing which
is just a little thicker.

Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some sort of
reducer (seems like more work than I want to do)? And why don't the borgs
sell valves that fit the tubing they sell? They've got both kinds of
tubing but just the smaller diameter valves. The immediate problem is
solved: I blew out the line under the deck after I cut it under the
house. But I won't have more water out there until I repair this.

Gents?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com






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Default Dumb question about copper piping

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
....

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was going to solder in
another ported quarter turn valve... only this time to the outside of the water
line shutoff. When I tried to fit the valve on the now open piping, no amount
of stuffing and grunting would get the job done. A visit to the local borg
revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only they would fit the thinner M type piping.
I assume I've got L tubing which is just a little thicker.

....

K, L and M are same OD, extra wall thickness comes from ID, not OD.

You have either a non-standard tubing or fittings if they don't fit. A
"real" plumbing supply should be able to supply what you need.

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Default Dumb question about copper piping

http://www.cnd-industry.com/



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Default Dumb question about copper piping

I suspect that your copper is out-of-round. It may have happened
when you were using the cutter, especially if it does not have a
good cutting wheel.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
message ...
With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under
the house to shut off the water to the back deck and blow out
the line with some compressed air. Imagine my disgust when I
discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn valve with
the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard
of the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing
compressed air to the valve would blow the water inside the
house up until that point rather than the water from that point
outside.

So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was
going to solder in another ported quarter turn valve... only
this time to the outside of the water line shutoff. When I
tried to fit the valve on the now open piping, no amount of
stuffing and grunting would get the job done. A visit to the
local borg revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only they would fit
the thinner M type piping. I assume I've got L tubing which is
just a little thicker.

Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some
sort of reducer (seems like more work than I want to do)? And
why don't the borgs sell valves that fit the tubing they sell?
They've got both kinds of tubing but just the smaller diameter
valves. The immediate problem is solved: I blew out the line
under the deck after I cut it under the house. But I won't have
more water out there until I repair this.

Gents?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com






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Default Dumb question about copper piping

On Oct 30, 4:46 pm, "DanG" wrote:
I suspect that your copper is out-of-round. It may have happened
when you were using the cutter, especially if it does not have a
good cutting wheel.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
messagenews:[email protected] ews.com...



With the first freeze of the year last night, I crawled under
the house to shut off the water to the back deck and blow out
the line with some compressed air. Imagine my disgust when I
discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn valve with
the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard
of the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing
compressed air to the valve would blow the water inside the
house up until that point rather than the water from that point
outside.


So what to do? I cut the line with a tubing cutter and was
going to solder in another ported quarter turn valve... only
this time to the outside of the water line shutoff. When I
tried to fit the valve on the now open piping, no amount of
stuffing and grunting would get the job done. A visit to the
local borg revealed plenty of 1/2" fittings, only they would fit
the thinner M type piping. I assume I've got L tubing which is
just a little thicker.


Where do I get valves that would fit? Or should I find some
sort of reducer (seems like more work than I want to do)? And
why don't the borgs sell valves that fit the tubing they sell?
They've got both kinds of tubing but just the smaller diameter
valves. The immediate problem is solved: I blew out the line
under the deck after I cut it under the house. But I won't have
more water out there until I repair this.


Gents?


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Agree with the above. Also these things are usually plumbed so the
pipe goes slightly uphill going outside. That way there is no need
for compressed air. You just close the basement valve, open the
bleed port and open the outside faucet.

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Default Dumb question about copper piping

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com writes:
Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn
valve with the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard of
the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing compressed air to
the valve would blow the water inside the house up until that point rather than
the water from that point outside.


I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.

I had a similar situation: the main water supply for the house enters
under the entrance doorway (the door is half a flight above the
basement), then there's a tee that feeds the outside faucets before the
water passes through the pressure regulator. There's a shutoff valve
for the outside faucets, and the valve has a little capped drain port.
The drain port is *supposed* to be downstream, so once the valve has
been shut off, you can drain the water from the lines. But the valve
was in backwards, and when I removed the cap from the "drain" port, I
suddenly had 60 PSI water spraying out instead of the gentle drain flow
I expected. Stupid.

I removed it and installed a new valve with the drain on the downstream
side. This was complicated by the output line being polybutylene, which
I can't get fittings for any more, so I had to cut the PB short, install
a few inches of PEX with a PB-to-PEX adapter, and then use a PEX fitting
on the valve. The supply-side plumbing is all copper, which unsoldered
and went back together fine.

Dave
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Default Dumb question about copper piping

Dave Martindale wrote:
I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.



I've got a little update but the solution isn't in place just yet: I was made
aware at a plumber's supply house today that there does exist such a beast as
5/8" tubing. "Of course, nobody would use that because it costs about twice as
much. That's getting into refrigeration stuff."

Well, I went home and got on the internet and sure enough, I found a description
of 5/8" copper tubing where it said it was used (among other spots) for hot
tubs. Well, my line is to be found right in front of the hot tub which is just
to the side of where I come into the crawl space. The hot tub is cut into the
floor of the bathroom directly above and I have access to the filter, etc where
I come in. So having that line there seems reasonable.... even if it "costs
twice as much".

So it seems what I need to extract myself from this mess is a pair of 5/8" to
1/2" copper reducers. I can then solder in the ball valve I already paid for
and the problem is solved. At least that's how I hope things will go. I won't
know until I lay my hands on those reducers and see if they will fit the tubing
already out there.

Film at 11....


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


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Default Dumb question about copper piping


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
Dave Martindale wrote:
I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.



I've got a little update but the solution isn't in place just yet: I was
made aware at a plumber's supply house today that there does exist such a
beast as 5/8" tubing. "Of course, nobody would use that because it costs
about twice as much. That's getting into refrigeration stuff."

Well, I went home and got on the internet and sure enough, I found a
description of 5/8" copper tubing where it said it was used (among other
spots) for hot tubs. Well, my line is to be found right in front of the
hot tub which is just to the side of where I come into the crawl space.
The hot tub is cut into the floor of the bathroom directly above and I
have access to the filter, etc where I come in. So having that line there
seems reasonable.... even if it "costs twice as much".

So it seems what I need to extract myself from this mess is a pair of 5/8"
to 1/2" copper reducers. I can then solder in the ball valve I already
paid for and the problem is solved. At least that's how I hope things
will go. I won't know until I lay my hands on those reducers and see if
they will fit the tubing already out there.

Film at 11....


The outside diameter of 1/2" copper tube is 5/8". The outside diameter of
5/8" tubing is probably 3/4" or close to it. The inside diameter of 3/4"
tubing is nominally 3/4", depending on wall thickness. See if you can fit a
3/4" coupling with a stub of 3/4" pipe in it, over the outside of the 5/8"
tube. You may be able to jury rig an arrangement by fitting pieces together.
Try fitting pieces together in the big box store to see how you can do it,
be creative, it may save you some money over special ordering the 5/8"
fittings. You may have to try some pieces of different wall thicknesses to
see what fits over the 5/8" tube without too much gap that could cause
soldering problems.

Other than the above you may need to locate a refrigeration supply outfit to
get the parts.




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According to Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com:
Dave Martindale wrote:
I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.



I've got a little update but the solution isn't in place just yet: I was made
aware at a plumber's supply house today that there does exist such a beast as
5/8" tubing. "Of course, nobody would use that because it costs about twice as
much. That's getting into refrigeration stuff."


The main feed to my Dad's house (built around 1970) is 5/8".
The tubing is the size as the female side of a normal 1/2"
copper coupler.

I _believe_ you can solder 1/2" pipe _inside_ the 5/8" pipe.

In other words, the adapters you need are just two short lengths
of 1/2" copper. Check it out.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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Chris Lewis wrote:
The main feed to my Dad's house (built around 1970) is 5/8".
The tubing is the size as the female side of a normal 1/2"
copper coupler.

I _believe_ you can solder 1/2" pipe _inside_ the 5/8" pipe.

In other words, the adapters you need are just two short lengths
of 1/2" copper. Check it out.



That is an interesting thought. I'll crawl up under there in the morning.
Whatever I end up doing, I'll post the fix.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


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On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:58:29 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com writes:
Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn
valve with the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard of
the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing compressed air to
the valve would blow the water inside the house up until that point rather than
the water from that point outside.


I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.

I had a similar situation: the main water supply for the house enters
under the entrance doorway (the door is half a flight above the
basement), then there's a tee that feeds the outside faucets before the
water passes through the pressure regulator. There's a shutoff valve
for the outside faucets, and the valve has a little capped drain port.
The drain port is *supposed* to be downstream, so once the valve has
been shut off, you can drain the water from the lines. But the valve
was in backwards, and when I removed the cap from the "drain" port, I
suddenly had 60 PSI water spraying out instead of the gentle drain flow
I expected. Stupid.

I removed it and installed a new valve with the drain on the downstream
side. This was complicated by the output line being polybutylene, which
I can't get fittings for any more, so I had to cut the PB short, install
a few inches of PEX with a PB-to-PEX adapter, and then use a PEX fitting
on the valve. The supply-side plumbing is all copper, which unsoldered
and went back together fine.

Dave


These days, many of these generation X plumbers are alcoholics or drug
addicts. You know that whole generation is just a bunch of lazy good
for nothing bums, so this comes as no surprise at all. Thats why when
I have any work done on my home, I either do it myself or when I
contact a company, I tell them outright that I will not allow anyone
under the age of 40 to even enter my home with a tool.
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Default Dumb question about copper piping

On Nov 1, 7:50 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:58:29 +0000 (UTC), (Dave





Martindale) wrote:
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com writes:
Imagine my disgust when I discovered the plumber had installed the quarter turn
valve with the access port to the inside of the house rather than outboard of
the other seat/stem type valve. In other words, introducing compressed air to
the valve would blow the water inside the house up until that point rather than
the water from that point outside.


I'd like to know how a plumber, who ought to have some idea what they're
doing, manages to install something like this backward in the first
place.


I had a similar situation: the main water supply for the house enters
under the entrance doorway (the door is half a flight above the
basement), then there's a tee that feeds the outside faucets before the
water passes through the pressure regulator. There's a shutoff valve
for the outside faucets, and the valve has a little capped drain port.
The drain port is *supposed* to be downstream, so once the valve has
been shut off, you can drain the water from the lines. But the valve
was in backwards, and when I removed the cap from the "drain" port, I
suddenly had 60 PSI water spraying out instead of the gentle drain flow
I expected. Stupid.


I removed it and installed a new valve with the drain on the downstream
side. This was complicated by the output line being polybutylene, which
I can't get fittings for any more, so I had to cut the PB short, install
a few inches of PEX with a PB-to-PEX adapter, and then use a PEX fitting
on the valve. The supply-side plumbing is all copper, which unsoldered
and went back together fine.


Dave


These days, many of these generation X plumbers are alcoholics or drug
addicts. You know that whole generation is just a bunch of lazy good
for nothing bums, so this comes as no surprise at all. Thats why when
I have any work done on my home, I either do it myself or when I
contact a company, I tell them outright that I will not allow anyone
under the age of 40 to even enter my home with a tool.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -



I will not allow anyone under the age of 40 to even enter my home
with a tool

Good thinking...because we all know there no alcoholics or drug
addicts over the age of 40.

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Default Dumb question about copper piping

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
....
took a small sample of the cut off line with me and went in search of
refrigeration fittings. A kind soul there told me that it looked as if my
tubing had frozen at some point in the past ...

....
It looks like what's going to have to happen is to turn off all the water for
the whole house, all the old tubing needs to come down, and then resolder new
tubing with two new valves... the outboard one having the dump port. Then I'm
going to insulate the tubing.

Talk about a PITA. Time for a drink... the sun must be going down somewhere on
earth.


Actually, you should be glad the original plumber turned the valve
around wrong so you went in to fix it...

Think how much more of a pita this would be if it were mid-February
after the next hard freeze actually broke this line and you were being
forced to repair the damage then...

While you're at it, would be good time to ensure there aren't other
places w/ exposed piping, etc., that need attention.

--


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Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
In other words, the adapters you need are just two short lengths
of 1/2" copper. Check it out.



That is an interesting thought. I'll crawl up under there in the morning.
Whatever I end up doing, I'll post the fix.



This is getting expensive and I'm getting depressed. I bought a new tubing
cutter on the off chance the little tiny one I had was messing things up. Today
I crawled under the house and determined I would not get this fixed easily. I
took a small sample of the cut off line with me and went in search of
refrigeration fittings. A kind soul there told me that it looked as if my
tubing had frozen at some point in the past and there was no longer any way I
would get it back to specs. He suggested I swage (sp?) the tubing to the next
larger size and then solder in the next larger reducer. So I bought a swager
(sp?) and crawled back under the house with it. Of course, you have to beat the
everliving **** out of it and there's no way to secure it while you're beating.
So I have the tubing in one hand and a hand held sledge in the other... on my
back and beating on something with my arms stretched out and my neck off the
ground.

Well, I broke a good sweat. Broke the pipe too. Just beyond the expanded area
the tubing has a small fissure where none existed before.

It looks like what's going to have to happen is to turn off all the water for
the whole house, all the old tubing needs to come down, and then resolder new
tubing with two new valves... the outboard one having the dump port. Then I'm
going to insulate the tubing.

Talk about a PITA. Time for a drink... the sun must be going down somewhere on
earth.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


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