I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?

On Oct 22, 4:36?pm, "Toller" wrote:
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?

yes at the trap, antifeeze is critical

"Toller" wrote in message
...
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would
it actually break?
The real answer is "sometimes". If the water is trapped, its' expansion
will crack most materials that try to contain it.
For my toilet traps in winter, I try to drain them as well as possible and
add some RV anti-freeze for the last flush. For my pressure tank and hot
water tank, if I expect a sustained hard freeze, I drain them. For light
freezes, I just drain a little water to allow for expansion, just in case.
If the freezing water has somewhere to expand to, chances of damage are
minimal.

Worst case is when water freezes a "lid" that won't shift, then starts to
freeze under the lid. Then it needs to go outwards...

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:36:23 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?


YES

I used to rent a house and had some tenants that did not maintain
heat. Twice the toilet broke while the pipe did not. Clay will break
long before a metal pipe. There is no give in the clay.

In article , "Toller" wrote:
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything.

In the bowl, sure. In the trap, maybe not.

Would it actually break?

Do you actually want to find out?

You can add antifreeze every year for twenty years without spending as much
time, or money, as you'll spend replacing just one broken toilet. Does it make
sense to take a chance?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Oct 22, 1:36 pm, "Toller" wrote:
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?

Sure will. I replaced mine with a "Toto" last year. Gave the old one
to a friend. Carefully emptied the trap and set it out under a tree.
I forgot about rain collecting in it. Went to load it and found a big
patch missing in the trap area.

Harry K

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:36:23 GMT, "Toller" wrote:

I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?


Yes! It is not all that difficult to crack a porcelain toilet. For
example, never pour hot water into a (cold) toilet.

On Oct 22, 4:36?pm, "Toller" wrote:
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?

yes it will reak the trap area

According to Toller :
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would it
actually break?

Take a glass (glass, not plastic) of water and stick it in your
freezer. Odds are that it'll shatter.

As the ice freezes, it becomes more and more rigid (duh ;-), so
expansion into adjacent air space is highly restricted.

So even if there's plenty of air space where you think it might expand
into, it will still exert very high pressure against the walls.

A "U" of copper pipe, open at both ends and partially filled with water,
will split when it freezes. Or at least it did to me ;-)
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to Toller :
I winterized my cottage today. Part of that is pumping out the toilets
and
adding antifreeze.
But I got to wondering if it really matters; if the water freezes and
expands it has plenty of room to do so without breaking anything. Would
it
actually break?

Take a glass (glass, not plastic) of water and stick it in your
freezer. Odds are that it'll shatter.

As the ice freezes, it becomes more and more rigid (duh ;-), so
expansion into adjacent air space is highly restricted.

So even if there's plenty of air space where you think it might expand
into, it will still exert very high pressure against the walls.

A "U" of copper pipe, open at both ends and partially filled with water,
will split when it freezes. Or at least it did to me ;-)
--
Well, normal weather is a little different. It comes on much slower and
doesn't get as cold.
But still, I have always pumped out my toilets and added antifreeze; and
will continue to do so.

Two years ago I blew my pipes out with air, and opened 5 drains; as I have
for the past 10 years. Then I figured I would save myself a trip below the
cottage next spring and closed the drains. Got my first two burst pipes,
right next to the drains.

According to Toller :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message

Take a glass (glass, not plastic) of water and stick it in your
freezer. Odds are that it'll shatter.

Well, normal weather is a little different. It comes on much slower and
doesn't get as cold.

"Normal" weather here does do those things, and gets much colder.

Water doesn't go through a "plastic" phase when transforming to ice
no matter how slow the process is. Or at least, not at anything
approaching ordinary pressures.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Toller :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message

Take a glass (glass, not plastic) of water and stick it in your
freezer. Odds are that it'll shatter.

Well, normal weather is a little different. It comes on much slower and
doesn't get as cold.

"Normal" weather here does do those things, and gets much colder.

Water doesn't go through a "plastic" phase when transforming to ice
no matter how slow the process is. Or at least, not at anything
approaching ordinary pressures.

Frozen water will shatter your toilet. Not sure how warm or cold the
weather is where you are but my winters are around -20C (that's -4
Fahrenheit for you guys). Assuming you're talking about a toilet in a
building with no heating whatsoever then here's what you do: Basically
you have to drain the toilet and pour antifreeze (not the automotive
kind) down the bowl - tank stays empty. Goes without saying you won't be
using that toilet in the winter.

According to observer :
Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Toller :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message

Take a glass (glass, not plastic) of water and stick it in your
freezer. Odds are that it'll shatter.

Well, normal weather is a little different. It comes on much slower and
doesn't get as cold.

"Normal" weather here does do those things, and gets much colder.

Water doesn't go through a "plastic" phase when transforming to ice
no matter how slow the process is. Or at least, not at anything
approaching ordinary pressures.

Frozen water will shatter your toilet. Not sure how warm or cold the
weather is where you are but my winters are around -20C (that's -4
Fahrenheit for you guys).

FYI: every winter we usually get a week or two where the high
temperature is -25C, with nights hitting -40C (that's -40F for
our friends down south).
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

replying to Chris Lewis, GossamerG wrote:
I removed a toilet a placed it outside, I thought it was completely drained
but a small amount of water remained in the trap and it froze overnight and
broke a palm size piece out of the bottom of the porcelain. I did not even
notice initially, but I found the jagged piece lying on the ground where I had
placed the toilet and when I turned it over to set a new wax ring I saw the
damage. Caution!

--
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