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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks


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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, Proch wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks


Unless you are absolutely certain of what you are doing, hire an
electrician. Electricity is nothing to take lightly.
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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

All you have to do is connect your wires to the same wires as the unswitched
light, and you'll have an unswitched outlet. If you want the light to be
switched, connect the wires going to the light, to the wires your outlet is
currently connected to


"Proch" wrote in message
. ..
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I
spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box
and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give
me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be
to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Thanks



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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks



Just go to the cutlery drawer, get a regular dinner knife and jam it into
the socket in question while a friend flicks the switch on and off...

Seriously - it may not be an easy fix. You don't sound too much like you
know what you're doing.

If you just *have* to do it yourself - your local library has tons of books
on electrical repairs and would be a perfect place to start. I recommend
this book:
http://amazon.com/gp/product/1589232135/

a
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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, "Proch"
wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks


You can buy a thing that fits over the screws on a standard switch
cover that prevents anyone from turning the switch OFF (or ON if it's
reversed). You dont need to even touch the wiring. just remove the
screws from the switch plate, stick the thing on the plate and put the
screws back. I saw them at Ace Hardware (I think thats where). The
cost is under $5

By the way, did you try BOTH of the halves of the DUPLEX outlet?
Often half is switched, the other half is not.



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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

Yeah, but then I wouldn't be able to turn off the lights ;-) Right now I've
got duct tape performing the same task so the kids don't zap my internet
connection.

Yes, I did try both... I was sure that one was going to stay on, like you
suggested, but that wasn't the case.


wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, "Proch"
wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me
an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to
make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light
were switched...)

Thanks


You can buy a thing that fits over the screws on a standard switch
cover that prevents anyone from turning the switch OFF (or ON if it's
reversed). You dont need to even touch the wiring. just remove the
screws from the switch plate, stick the thing on the plate and put the
screws back. I saw them at Ace Hardware (I think thats where). The
cost is under $5

By the way, did you try BOTH of the halves of the DUPLEX outlet?
Often half is switched, the other half is not.



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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

Well I was a EE in college, but I know alot more about stuff that runs at 5V
than 120. I'm not worried that I won't be able to figure it out, I'm just
looking for a heads up because I can forsee being in the basement with a
flashlight trying to figure the whole tihng out while everyone is whining
about the power being out...


"a" wrote in message news:TwVRi.12899$GO5.5218@edtnps90...
Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then
use those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket.
I spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on
the ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That
light does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open
the box and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can
anyone give me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best
way will be to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have
to do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Thanks


Just go to the cutlery drawer, get a regular dinner knife and jam it into
the socket in question while a friend flicks the switch on and off...

Seriously - it may not be an easy fix. You don't sound too much like you
know what you're doing.

If you just *have* to do it yourself - your local library has tons of
books on electrical repairs and would be a perfect place to start. I
recommend this book:
http://amazon.com/gp/product/1589232135/

a



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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring


"Proch" wrote in message
. ..
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I
spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box
and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give
me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be
to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Someone with even a small amount of experience could fix it in 5 minutes.
Do you know anyone like that who can do you a favor?
Otherwise, it might not be a great first project. Depending on the
competence of you electrician you could find just about anything under
there.


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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:42:12 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"Proch" wrote in message
...
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I
spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box
and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give
me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be
to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Someone with even a small amount of experience could fix it in 5 minutes.
Do you know anyone like that who can do you a favor?
Otherwise, it might not be a great first project. Depending on the
competence of you electrician you could find just about anything under
there.


I agree, but if he dont know electricity he has to call an electrician
and we all know what that costs. He could just put a pull chain on
the light too, or another way would be to buy a long extension cord
that is a #12 or at least a #14 and use another outlet further away.
That's not necessarily the ideal situation, but computers dont use
that much power, and the wire gauge is the same as whats in the wall
anyhow.

It's sort of odd that BOTH halves are switched. Usually it's just
one.

If this was my problem, I'd just put another dedicated outlet there
and leave the old one alone.
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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

In article ,
"Proch" wrote:

Well I was a EE in college, but I know alot more about stuff that runs at 5V
than 120. I'm not worried that I won't be able to figure it out, I'm just
looking for a heads up because I can forsee being in the basement with a
flashlight trying to figure the whole tihng out while everyone is whining
about the power being out...




So don't do it in the dark, and don't do it while the family is at home.
Run an extension cord of whatever length is needed to get your 1000 watt
halogen worklight down there before you turn off the relevant breaker.
Then open up the switch and outlet boxes and pull things out so you can
see the wires.

Don't disconnect anything. Study things until you understand them. Make
a drawing of the way things are. Make another drawing of the way things
would need to be in order to have a switched light and an unswitched
outlet.

If you can do that, then make the wiring match drawing number two. If
you can't do that, then call an electrician.


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On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, Proch wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks




Perhaps the better choice would be to create a brand new circuit just for
the computer equipment. Add a circuit breaker, string some wire and
you're done.

Sometimes computers like to be isolated from everything else. There would
then be no dimming of lights when the printer kicks in. Less chance of
breaker blown because of something else on the line.
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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:25:35 GMT, franz frippl
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, Proch wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks




Perhaps the better choice would be to create a brand new circuit just for
the computer equipment. Add a circuit breaker, string some wire and
you're done.

Sometimes computers like to be isolated from everything else. There would
then be no dimming of lights when the printer kicks in. Less chance of
breaker blown because of something else on the line.


What the heck kind of printer do you use to dim the lights? I have
never had that happen. Printers are low power users.

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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 06:21:40 -0500, alvinamorey wrote:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:25:35 GMT, franz frippl
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, Proch wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks




Perhaps the better choice would be to create a brand new circuit just for
the computer equipment. Add a circuit breaker, string some wire and
you're done.

Sometimes computers like to be isolated from everything else. There would
then be no dimming of lights when the printer kicks in. Less chance of
breaker blown because of something else on the line.


What the heck kind of printer do you use to dim the lights? I have
never had that happen. Printers are low power users.


It's an older laser printer. When I had it on a 15 amp circuit in an
older home, occasionally I did see some fluctuation.

The point of my post is that isolating the computer from any other type of
interference or possible disruption might be a better choice than trying
to tie it in to an existing circuit. It's not clear from the original
post what else might be on the circuit. It could also be an older home
with outdated and cobbled together wiring.
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franz frippl wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:39:29 -0400, Proch wrote:

I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks




Perhaps the better choice would be to create a brand new circuit just for
the computer equipment. Add a circuit breaker, string some wire and
you're done.


I agree completely - in the book I posted a link to, it shows you how to
install a separately grounded, dedicated computer circuit. It's very easy.

a
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"Proch" wrote in message
. ..
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a

mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use

those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light

does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me

an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to

make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the

light
were switched...)



The easiest thing to do is just eliminate the switch. Remove the two wires
from the switch and splice them together. Put a blank cover over the switch
box.



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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:20:37 -0400, "Proch"
wrote:

Well I was a EE in college, but I know alot more about stuff that runs at 5V
than 120. I'm not worried that I won't be able to figure it out, I'm just
looking for a heads up because I can forsee being in the basement with a
flashlight trying to figure the whole tihng out while everyone is whining
about the power being out...


[snip]

I was studying digital electronics in college, but did once take an
elective course in NEC. I remember getting one test question "wrong",
in one of those cases where you get penalized for knowing something
you aren't expected to.

The question was about a 3-phase wye-connected motor, and asked True
or False: the current in each leg is the same. The supposed "correct"
answer was True, although I knew that was impossible. One of things
they taught in electronics was that the sum of the currents in a node
is always zero (electrons are flowing FROM somewhere TO somewhere).
The currents could never be equal unless they were all zero.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Sounds like a classic case of both answers being right!

Measured instantaneously, you're correct - the sum of the 3 legs will be zero, but different currents (or 0) will be flowing
in each leg.

But on an average basis, like if you connected an ammeter, you'd read the same current on all 3.

Eric Law

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message ...
I was studying digital electronics in college, but did once take an
elective course in NEC. I remember getting one test question "wrong",
in one of those cases where you get penalized for knowing something
you aren't expected to.

The question was about a 3-phase wye-connected motor, and asked True
or False: the current in each leg is the same. The supposed "correct"
answer was True, although I knew that was impossible. One of things
they taught in electronics was that the sum of the currents in a node
is always zero (electrons are flowing FROM somewhere TO somewhere).
The currents could never be equal unless they were all zero.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."



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Once you open up the boxes and look it will be obvious how to do what
you want to do. Look, draw, think, wire. Preferably in that order.

As others have pointed out that doesn't make it the best solution or
to code.

Aren't you going to end up with lighting and branch circuits on the
same breaker? Pretty sure that's against code, you ought to look it
up. For that matter, your extension cord across the ceiling is
probably wrong. You really ought to run a new circuit from the panel
to your computer area, and this is not that hard or expensive to do.





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Once you open up the boxes and look it will be obvious how to do what
you want to do. Look, draw, think, wire. Preferably in that order.

As others have pointed out that doesn't make it the best solution or
to code.

Aren't you going to end up with lighting and branch circuits on the
same breaker? Pretty sure that's against code, you ought to look it
up. For that matter, your extension cord across the ceiling is
probably wrong. You really ought to run a new circuit from the panel
to your computer area, and this is not that hard or expensive to do.



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TimR wrote:
Once you open up the boxes and look it will be obvious how to do what
you want to do. Look, draw, think, wire. Preferably in that order.

As others have pointed out that doesn't make it the best solution or
to code.

Aren't you going to end up with lighting and branch circuits on the
same breaker? Pretty sure that's against code, you ought to look it
up. For that matter, your extension cord across the ceiling is
probably wrong. You really ought to run a new circuit from the panel
to your computer area, and this is not that hard or expensive to do.


Tim:

What do you mean, branch and lighting? Lighting circuits /are/ branch
circuits. You can't have lighting on your /small appliance branches/,
but
this sounds like a general lighting branch, and that can have
receptacles
as well as light fixtures.

I definitely agree that the first thing to do is find out what's
there...look,
draw, think, wire. I'd add a few more thinks, too, at the beginning,
especially.

Proch wrote:
There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.


P:

There are numerous things that could be in that box, and so you need
to find
out just what is going on before starting to wire.

-You could have one 2-wire cable feeding the box, one 2-wire cable
leaving,
unswitched, and one 2-wire cable hooked up as a switch loop - out to
the
switch and back. In this case you'd most likely have just the one
cable
in the switch box.

-You could have one three-wire cable feeding the box, wired to a
single
branch circuit, with one hot switched and one not, and two 2-wire
cables
leaving the box, at least one unswitched. In this case, you'd have
one
2-wire feed to the switch and one 3-wire from the switch to the
ceiling
box. In this case, the 3-wire cable woudl have 0v from one hot to the
other,
120v from either to the neutral, when the switch was on.

Be cautious, however, because with the exact same cables and
connections...

-You might have one 2-wire cable feeding the box, with one unswitched
2-wire cable leaving the box, and a 3-wire cable running to the
switch,
acting both as a feed for unswitched outlets downstream, and as a
switch
loop (the switch would be connected as above, from one hot of the
three-
wire cable to the other).

-You might have a 3-wire Edison circuit feeding the box; two branches
with a common neutral, derived from opposite buses at the panel. In
this case, you'd have 120v from each hot to neutral, and 240v across
both hots. Two cables leave the box to go to other loads.

-You might have a kludged version of any of these 3-wire examples, in
which two 2-wire cables were used improperly instead of one 3-wire,
and the extra wire was ignored or worse.

This is why it is necessary to know just what is going on in that box,
what is feeding it, and where the power is going, before starting to
alter things. If you don't do that, you can set yourself up for
problems.
For example, somebody I know once hooked up "all black to black,
all white to white" in a box. Unfortunately, there was an informal
switch loop involved, and he ended up with a bolted short, and all
of a sudden the breaker wouldn't stay on.

He didn't hurt himself or burn anything, fortunately, but he did learn
a valuable lesson. There's just no such thing as excessive
understanding when it comes to working on an old electrical circuit.
You just never know what to expect.

I suggest starting out with a good book. PRACTICAL ELECTRICAL
WIRING is a favorite.


G P

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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:42:12 GMT, "Toller" wrote:


"Proch" wrote in message
...
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I
spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box
and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give
me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be
to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Someone with even a small amount of experience could fix it in 5 minutes.
Do you know anyone like that who can do you a favor?
Otherwise, it might not be a great first project. Depending on the
competence of you electrician you could find just about anything under
there.


Why would you bother saying that in a DYI group? This is an easy as
cake project.


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Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket.



What you just said you did (Nailing an extension cord) is quite likely
in violation of the electrical code in your area.

Now that you've told the world what you did here with a post that may be
findable 'forever' I suggest you check the code and if needed change the
installation to be code compliant, even if it means having to hire a
licensed electrician to do it if DIY electrical work isn't permitted in
your area.

I realize there's a slim chance that tacking up that cord created a
serious fire hazard, but if G-d forbid there should be an electrical
fire in that area of your home, maybe caused by one of the pieces of
computer gear deciding to flare up, your insurer may do their best to
get out of paying if they can find evidence that you did something which
was not to code.

Peace, and don't take this personally,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.



snipped



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GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I
was hoping for... I will open the box tonight or tomorrow and figure
everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without
cutting the power? Or is this considered dangerous...


wrote in message
ups.com...

TimR wrote:
Once you open up the boxes and look it will be obvious how to do what
you want to do. Look, draw, think, wire. Preferably in that order.

As others have pointed out that doesn't make it the best solution or
to code.

Aren't you going to end up with lighting and branch circuits on the
same breaker? Pretty sure that's against code, you ought to look it
up. For that matter, your extension cord across the ceiling is
probably wrong. You really ought to run a new circuit from the panel
to your computer area, and this is not that hard or expensive to do.


Tim:

What do you mean, branch and lighting? Lighting circuits /are/ branch
circuits. You can't have lighting on your /small appliance branches/,
but
this sounds like a general lighting branch, and that can have
receptacles
as well as light fixtures.

I definitely agree that the first thing to do is find out what's
there...look,
draw, think, wire. I'd add a few more thinks, too, at the beginning,
especially.

Proch wrote:
There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on
the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me
an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to
make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.


P:

There are numerous things that could be in that box, and so you need
to find
out just what is going on before starting to wire.

-You could have one 2-wire cable feeding the box, one 2-wire cable
leaving,
unswitched, and one 2-wire cable hooked up as a switch loop - out to
the
switch and back. In this case you'd most likely have just the one
cable
in the switch box.

-You could have one three-wire cable feeding the box, wired to a
single
branch circuit, with one hot switched and one not, and two 2-wire
cables
leaving the box, at least one unswitched. In this case, you'd have
one
2-wire feed to the switch and one 3-wire from the switch to the
ceiling
box. In this case, the 3-wire cable woudl have 0v from one hot to the
other,
120v from either to the neutral, when the switch was on.

Be cautious, however, because with the exact same cables and
connections...

-You might have one 2-wire cable feeding the box, with one unswitched
2-wire cable leaving the box, and a 3-wire cable running to the
switch,
acting both as a feed for unswitched outlets downstream, and as a
switch
loop (the switch would be connected as above, from one hot of the
three-
wire cable to the other).

-You might have a 3-wire Edison circuit feeding the box; two branches
with a common neutral, derived from opposite buses at the panel. In
this case, you'd have 120v from each hot to neutral, and 240v across
both hots. Two cables leave the box to go to other loads.

-You might have a kludged version of any of these 3-wire examples, in
which two 2-wire cables were used improperly instead of one 3-wire,
and the extra wire was ignored or worse.

This is why it is necessary to know just what is going on in that box,
what is feeding it, and where the power is going, before starting to
alter things. If you don't do that, you can set yourself up for
problems.
For example, somebody I know once hooked up "all black to black,
all white to white" in a box. Unfortunately, there was an informal
switch loop involved, and he ended up with a bolted short, and all
of a sudden the breaker wouldn't stay on.

He didn't hurt himself or burn anything, fortunately, but he did learn
a valuable lesson. There's just no such thing as excessive
understanding when it comes to working on an old electrical circuit.
You just never know what to expect.

I suggest starting out with a good book. PRACTICAL ELECTRICAL
WIRING is a favorite.


G P





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Why would you bother saying that in a DYI group? This is an easy as
cake project.


Uh, that's DIY, Mr. Cakewalk.
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Proch wrote:
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I
was hoping for... I will open the box tonight or tomorrow and figure
everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without
cutting the power? Or is this considered dangerous...



smacks hand to forehead Oh, for the love of...

a
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Um... in an earlier post you state you "were an EE in college". Did you actually *pass* the course?

First 3 words in the instructions for *any* wiring project: "TURN OFF POWER...".

"Proch" wrote in message . ..
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I was hoping for... I will open the box tonight
or tomorrow and figure everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without cutting the power? Or is
this considered dangerous...



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on 10/19/2007 1:47 PM Jeff Wisnia said the following:
Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was
a mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and
then use those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the
electrical socket.



What you just said you did (Nailing an extension cord) is quite likely
in violation of the electrical code in your area.


What if the staples are just used to hang the cord, like using cup
hooks, rather than hammering them tightly to the wood, as is done with
Romex.


Now that you've told the world what you did here with a post that may
be findable 'forever' I suggest you check the code and if needed
change the installation to be code compliant, even if it means having
to hire a licensed electrician to do it if DIY electrical work isn't
permitted in your area.

I realize there's a slim chance that tacking up that cord created a
serious fire hazard, but if G-d forbid there should be an electrical
fire in that area of your home, maybe caused by one of the pieces of
computer gear deciding to flare up, your insurer may do their best to
get out of paying if they can find evidence that you did something
which was not to code.

Peace, and don't take this personally,

Jeff



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
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I don't see how that could be true. The same kind of fasterners are used to
fasten every single wire in the basement to wood.


"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
...
Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then
use those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket.



What you just said you did (Nailing an extension cord) is quite likely in
violation of the electrical code in your area.

Now that you've told the world what you did here with a post that may be
findable 'forever' I suggest you check the code and if needed change the
installation to be code compliant, even if it means having to hire a
licensed electrician to do it if DIY electrical work isn't permitted in
your area.

I realize there's a slim chance that tacking up that cord created a
serious fire hazard, but if G-d forbid there should be an electrical fire
in that area of your home, maybe caused by one of the pieces of computer
gear deciding to flare up, your insurer may do their best to get out of
paying if they can find evidence that you did something which was not to
code.

Peace, and don't take this personally,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.



snipped







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Yeah, I don't see how I could make contact by simply removing the face
plate.


"Eric" wrote in message
g.com...
Um... in an earlier post you state you "were an EE in college". Did you
actually *pass* the course?

First 3 words in the instructions for *any* wiring project: "TURN OFF
POWER...".

"Proch" wrote in message
. ..
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what
I was hoping for... I will open the box tonight or tomorrow and figure
everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without
cutting the power? Or is this considered dangerous...





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Well that's true but you're probably not going to see anything useful either.

Most boxes are such a rat's nest that it's hard to see what's going on even with the switch/outlet pulled out!

Eric

"Proch" wrote in message . ..
Yeah, I don't see how I could make contact by simply removing the face plate.


"Eric" wrote in message g.com...
Um... in an earlier post you state you "were an EE in college". Did you actually *pass* the course?

First 3 words in the instructions for *any* wiring project: "TURN OFF POWER...".

"Proch" wrote in message . ..
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I was hoping for... I will open the box
tonight or tomorrow and figure everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without cutting the
power? Or is this considered dangerous...







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Proch wrote:
I don't see how that could be true. The same kind of fasterners are used to
fasten every single wire in the basement to wood.


Yes, but are those stapled wires which carry line voltage what you
described as "extension cords" or are they Romex or other approved
permanent wiring material, and do they have plugs on their ends or do
they go into traditional electrical boxes?

I couldn't hurt to check it out with your town's electrical inspector,
could it?

But, do what you want, it's your house, not mine. And as I said before I
think the direct risks are minimal, it's just thinking about the posible
code violation which got me going.

Peace,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.




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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:09:04 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:

Sounds like a classic case of both answers being right!

Measured instantaneously, you're correct - the sum of the 3 legs will be zero, but different currents (or 0) will be flowing
in each leg.


It doesn't have to be instantaneous for the currents to be unequal.
There is a difference in phase. My "problem" was in failing to know
that one of the important characteristics (phase) was supposed to be
ignored.

BTW, in a different class I had just been taught about phase, and the
way the phase of the voltage and the phase of the current can be
affected by components in the circuit (power factor). Obviously, 120V
@ 0 degrees is NOT the same thing as 120V @ 120 degrees.

But on an average basis, like if you connected an ammeter, you'd read the same current on all 3.


Since ammeters don't show phase. Phase is still real, as you should
know.

Eric Law

"Mark Lloyd" wrote in message ...
I was studying digital electronics in college, but did once take an
elective course in NEC. I remember getting one test question "wrong",
in one of those cases where you get penalized for knowing something
you aren't expected to.

The question was about a 3-phase wye-connected motor, and asked True
or False: the current in each leg is the same. The supposed "correct"
answer was True, although I knew that was impossible. One of things
they taught in electronics was that the sum of the currents in a node
is always zero (electrons are flowing FROM somewhere TO somewhere).
The currents could never be equal unless they were all zero.
--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."


--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:36:23 -0700, TimR wrote:

Once you open up the boxes and look it will be obvious how to do what
you want to do. Look, draw, think, wire. Preferably in that order.


It certainly works better than this order:

complain, wire, scream, call insurance company

:-)

[snip]
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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:10:22 -0400, "Eric"
wrote:

Um... in an earlier post you state you "were an EE in college". Did you actually *pass* the course?

First 3 words in the instructions for *any* wiring project: "TURN OFF POWER...".


Then, make SURE it's off. I normally plug in a small light (could use
a plug-in receptacle tester), make sure it's on, turn off the breaker,
then make sure the light went out.

"Proch" wrote in message . ..
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I was hoping for... I will open the box tonight
or tomorrow and figure everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without cutting the power? Or is
this considered dangerous...


--
67 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Terry wrote:

Why would you bother saying that in a DYI group? This is an easy as
cake project.


If you take on some of the projects discussed in this newsgroup without
additional instruction or knowledge, you may indeed be DYI -- Doing
Yourself In.
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But, do what you want, it's your house, not mine. And as I said before I
think the direct risks are minimal, it's just thinking about the posible
code violation which got me going.

Peace,

Jeff

--


Remember, code is the WORST you are allowed to build with. Not the
best.

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Proch wrote:
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I
was hoping for... I will open the box tonight or tomorrow and figure
everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without
cutting the power? Or is this considered dangerous...


P:

I always start by turning the power off, then check with my neon
voltage
tester to make sure it actually is off. (Actually, I usually check
before turning
the power off, too, to make sure the switch is on. Otherwise you can
get
a false safe reading, and then somebody comes by and flips the switch
ON...). If possible, I check before opening a box (by checking across
a
socket or receptacle), but in any case I always check after opening
the
box. Even if I have turned off the breaker or removed the fuse, I
assume
the wiring could be live, until I have verified that it isn't by
checking it.
You never know what you are going to find in an old system.

Generally, I check from hot to neutral, then from all wires to a known
good
ground, after turning off the power. Preferably, I check at exposed
terminals.
If that's not possible, I unscrew wirenuts. This needs some caution,
since
wires aren't always twisted together and may spring apart when the nut
is
removed.

After I am sure the box is dead, I see what is going on in the box.
/ALWAYS leaving the wires connected/, I unwind the rat's nest and
spread
the connected wires apart, and then write down how everything is
arranged,
what is connected to what, etc. I may tag the wires with pieces of
tape. Only after writing down what I start with do I start
disconnecting
wires.

Once everything is disconnected and safely spaced out, if I don't
already
know which wires are the feed, and I can't find out by visual tracing
or
continuity-testing the circuit, I may turn the power back on briefly
to check
for voltage at the various wires. Be careful when doing this,
because
you are checking a live circuit, and don't want to be part of it, of
course.
As soon as the tests are done, shut off the power again, and check to
verify it's off. This is one of the few cases in which I will allow
power to
an opened box. If possible, I try to avoid it, but even in some cases
when I think I know just what is going on, I'll double-check this way,
just to be safe.

The most important thing is to know what you are doing, and I really
can't guarantee that across here. I can only explain how I do it.
It's up
to you to be sure that the job is done safely, and if you aren't sure
you
can do that, you shouldn't do it. Usenet just isn't enough.

G P

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