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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 10:06:59 -0700, wrote:


Proch wrote:
GP-

Thank you for taking the time to put that together - this is exactly what I
was hoping for... I will open the box tonight or tomorrow and figure
everything out before proceeding. Now... would you open the box without
cutting the power? Or is this considered dangerous...


P:

I always start by turning the power off, then check with my neon
voltage
tester to make sure it actually is off. (Actually, I usually check
before turning
the power off, too, to make sure the switch is on. Otherwise you can
get
a false safe reading, and then somebody comes by and flips the switch
ON...). If possible, I check before opening a box (by checking across
a
socket or receptacle), but in any case I always check after opening
the
box.


You also might want to be sure anyone else who's around knows what
you're doing, and won't turn that breaker back on.

Even if I have turned off the breaker or removed the fuse, I
assume
the wiring could be live, until I have verified that it isn't by
checking it.
You never know what you are going to find in an old system.

Generally, I check from hot to neutral, then from all wires to a known
good
ground, after turning off the power. Preferably, I check at exposed
terminals.
If that's not possible, I unscrew wirenuts. This needs some caution,
since
wires aren't always twisted together and may spring apart when the nut
is
removed.

After I am sure the box is dead, I see what is going on in the box.
/ALWAYS leaving the wires connected/, I unwind the rat's nest and
spread
the connected wires apart, and then write down how everything is
arranged,
what is connected to what, etc. I may tag the wires with pieces of
tape. Only after writing down what I start with do I start
disconnecting
wires.

Once everything is disconnected and safely spaced out, if I don't
already
know which wires are the feed, and I can't find out by visual tracing
or
continuity-testing the circuit, I may turn the power back on briefly
to check
for voltage at the various wires. Be careful when doing this,
because
you are checking a live circuit, and don't want to be part of it, of
course.
As soon as the tests are done, shut off the power again, and check to
verify it's off. This is one of the few cases in which I will allow
power to
an opened box. If possible, I try to avoid it, but even in some cases
when I think I know just what is going on, I'll double-check this way,
just to be safe.

The most important thing is to know what you are doing, and I really
can't guarantee that across here. I can only explain how I do it.
It's up
to you to be sure that the job is done safely, and if you aren't sure
you
can do that, you shouldn't do it. Usenet just isn't enough.

G P

--
66 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

Mark Lloyd writes:

I was studying digital electronics in college, but did once take an
elective course in NEC. I remember getting one test question "wrong",
in one of those cases where you get penalized for knowing something
you aren't expected to.


The question was about a 3-phase wye-connected motor, and asked True
or False: the current in each leg is the same. The supposed "correct"
answer was True, although I knew that was impossible. One of things
they taught in electronics was that the sum of the currents in a node
is always zero (electrons are flowing FROM somewhere TO somewhere).
The currents could never be equal unless they were all zero.


They were asking about time-averaged current of some sort, probably RMS
current, while you were thinking in terms of instantaneous current.

That's sort of like being asked a question on a high school physics test
about the validity of Newton's laws when you already know about
relativity. *You* know that Newton's laws are not always valid, but at
the same time you should be able to figure out that *in the context of
the physics class*, they are.

Dave
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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring




You also might want to be sure anyone else who's around knows what
you're doing, and won't turn that breaker back on.


True, true.

But if you have insulated tools the only times you mgith actually have
contact is when you are doing "preliminary" wire twisting or are handling
things like switches our outlets.

You can strip and bend and twist wires without touching them directly.


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On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 05:10:19 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:

I was studying digital electronics in college, but did once take an
elective course in NEC. I remember getting one test question "wrong",
in one of those cases where you get penalized for knowing something
you aren't expected to.


The question was about a 3-phase wye-connected motor, and asked True
or False: the current in each leg is the same. The supposed "correct"
answer was True, although I knew that was impossible. One of things
they taught in electronics was that the sum of the currents in a node
is always zero (electrons are flowing FROM somewhere TO somewhere).
The currents could never be equal unless they were all zero.


They were asking about time-averaged current of some sort, probably RMS
current, while you were thinking in terms of instantaneous current.


At one particular time, you would see different voltages (and could
figure out the current would be different). You could not see phase
without seeing more than a singe instant.

That's sort of like being asked a question on a high school physics test
about the validity of Newton's laws when you already know about
relativity. *You* know that Newton's laws are not always valid, but at
the same time you should be able to figure out that *in the context of
the physics class*, they are.


There's many cases where honesty is NOT the best action. I often get
into trouble for that reason.

Dave

--
65 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy
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On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:36:33 -0400, "John Gilmer"
wrote:




You also might want to be sure anyone else who's around knows what
you're doing, and won't turn that breaker back on.


True, true.

But if you have insulated tools the only times you mgith actually have
contact is when you are doing "preliminary" wire twisting or are handling
things like switches our outlets.

You can strip and bend and twist wires without touching them directly.


And try to never touch more than one at a time. Of course perfection
doesn't exist and there's no way you can guarantee no mistakes.

BTW, I once touched a hot (120VAC) wire while replacing a switch, and
felt nothing at all.
--
65 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy


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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Oct 18, 7:39 pm, "Proch" wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I spent a
whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great - except that
when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup started beeping.
The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light does
NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box and
rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give me an
idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be to make
it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the light
were switched...)

Thanks


is u r google broken u sad pathetic loser social reject

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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

Mark Lloyd writes:

They were asking about time-averaged current of some sort, probably RMS
current, while you were thinking in terms of instantaneous current.


At one particular time, you would see different voltages (and could
figure out the current would be different). You could not see phase
without seeing more than a singe instant.


By "instantaneous current", I really meant "instantaneous current as a
function of time". If you look at the phase currents with an
oscilloscope, you can see that there is a phase shift between phases,
so the current waveforms are not equal. The question was asking about
average current as a scalar, not vector, quantity.

There's many cases where honesty is NOT the best action. I often get
into trouble for that reason.


Or more generally, providing the "full" answer to a question when the
asker only wanted the quick one-sentence executive summary. Most people
just want an answer, they don't want to understand the reason behind the
answer. I'm one of the people who always wants to know where the answer
came from, and how approximate the answer is, but I seem to be in a
distinct minority.

Dave

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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:33:34 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:

They were asking about time-averaged current of some sort, probably RMS
current, while you were thinking in terms of instantaneous current.


At one particular time, you would see different voltages (and could
figure out the current would be different). You could not see phase
without seeing more than a singe instant.


By "instantaneous current", I really meant "instantaneous current as a
function of time". If you look at the phase currents with an
oscilloscope, you can see that there is a phase shift between phases,
so the current waveforms are not equal. The question was asking about
average current as a scalar, not vector, quantity.


And a "scaler" is a "vector" with some information ignored. In that
situation, I did not know just what information was supposed to be
ignored.

There's many cases where honesty is NOT the best action. I often get
into trouble for that reason.


Or more generally, providing the "full" answer to a question when the
asker only wanted the quick one-sentence executive summary.


One that's wrong.

Most people
just want an answer, they don't want to understand the reason behind the
answer.


That seems to be true. This mental laziness contributes to a lot of
problems. Things are much easier to understand when you know what's
going on.

I'm one of the people who always wants to know where the answer
came from, and how approximate the answer is, but I seem to be in a
distinct minority.


And there's nothing wrong with that, as in the quote on my homepage
'"I was almost normal once, but then I got better.". Simplistic, but
generally true.


Dave

--
64 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy
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Default CONCLUSION: Electrical Outlet Wiring

Today I found he time to complete this task. The unswitched light and the
switched socket were on two different circuits. I identified and turned of
these circuits. Once I removed both the light and socket from their mounts,
the wiring in both cases was very simple. All I did was switch the light
and socket with their mounts and all is well. Thanks for all the input.
Somehow I expected the switched outlet wiring to be much more complicated,
but instead the whole circuit is switched.

"Proch" wrote in message
. ..
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a
mount a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use
those U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket. I
spent a whole day doing it and when I was done, everything was great -
except that when I turned off the basement light, the battery backup
started beeping. The electric socket is switched...

There are two flat cables leading into the socket (which is mounted on the
ceiling) and one that comes out. This one goes to a light. That light
does NOT go on or off with the switch. It's my intention to open the box
and rewire it to not be switched. Before I cut the power, can anyone give
me an idea of what I'll see when I open it, and what the best way will be
to make it not turn off when the switch is thrown.

Maybe one line just happens to pass under the switch, and all I'll have to
do is switch between the outlet and the light (I wouldn't mind if the
light were switched...)

Thanks



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Default Electrical Outlet Wiring

On Oct 19, 12:47 pm, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Proch wrote:
I recently began a project where I built a shelf and moved lots of my
computer stuff under the floor and into my basement. Part of it was a mount
a power strip with a 15' extension cord onto the ceiling and then use those
U shaped nails to neatly get the cord to the electrical socket.


What you just said you did (Nailing an extension cord) is quite likely
in violation of the electrical code in your area.

Now that you've told the world what you did here with a post that may be
findable 'forever' I suggest you check the code and if needed change the
installation to be code compliant, even if it means having to hire a
licensed electrician to do it if DIY electrical work isn't permitted in
your area.

I realize there's a slim chance that tacking up that cord created a
serious fire hazard, but if G-d forbid there should be an electrical
fire in that area of your home, maybe caused by one of the pieces of
computer gear deciding to flare up, your insurer may do their best to
get out of paying if they can find evidence that you did something which
was not to code.

Peace, and don't take this personally,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

snipped


re "Now that you've told the world what you did here with a post that
may be findable 'forever' I suggest you check the code and if needed
change the installation to be code compliant..."

Or at least re-post and *tell* us that you changed it. ;-)

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