Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Steven Andrade wrote:
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for
heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas
line for a fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat
pump with a gas unit when it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't
see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Generally a heat-pump will use electrical strip heaters for the second stage
or for backup heat. You can also have a heat-pump use gas for the same
purpose.

One more thing to think about, standard air conditioning is allot easier to
work on than an heat-pump to allot of technicians. If the company you are
using and you feel they know what there doing, no problem.



--
Moe Jones
HVAC Service Technician
Energy Equalizers Inc.
Houston, Texas
www.EnergyEqualizers.com

Steven Andrade wrote:
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Agree w/ Joe...what are current rates and what is the outlook for NG in
your area as well as where in the midwest? The colder/longer the
winter, the less advantage of the air/air heat pump owing to the lowered
effectiveness -- once air temp gets much below freezing, the heat pump
really loses out and has to run much longer and as someone else noted,
you may be heating w/ resistance heating much of the time, anyway.

You might consider another alternative as well -- the ground loop heat
pump. More expensive to install initially because of the need for
burying the heat exchange loop, but if have sufficient area available,
can eliminate the need for resistance heating entirely and will
definitely be better efficiency than the air/air.

The switch out on water heating is almost entirely one of relative fuel
costs. The one other advantage of gas imo is if you have hard water,
the amount of tank fouling is much less w/ gas as the point-source
heating electrodes are much worse for that ime...

--

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote Re Gas or heat pump in Midwest?:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

A heat pump quickly looses it's efficiency advantage over resistance
heating when the temp falls below 35F. If you live in a "cold"
climate area, unless your electric rate is very low, gas is usually
more cost effective.

First, get a good crystal ball and see what the utility rates are going
to be over the next 20 years. In my area, both have increased, but gas
has increased more. You should also find out the source of your
electricity; my sister lived in upstate NY and their electricity was
from the falls; I don't see the cost of that increasing as much as in my
area, where it is virtually all from generating plants. Incidentally,
I've read that many electrical power suppliers are building new plants
that use gas; that should increase the cost of both.

If your home now is all electric, you should find out how much it will
cost you to have the gas hooked up; if that is thousands of dollars, for
example, that could eat up a lot of savings from making the switch.

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
On the other hand, the good cooks that I know all prefer gas for
cooking, and I have never heard of the gas being knocked out by a storm
around here.

Steven Andrade wrote:
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?


Don't know unless you post your utility rates, but my bet is that the HP is
going to be cheaper.

Main issue with electric water heaters is that they don't recover as quickly
as gas.

dpb wrote:

Steven Andrade wrote:
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Agree w/ Joe...what are current rates and what is the outlook for NG in
your area as well as where in the midwest? The colder/longer the
winter, the less advantage of the air/air heat pump owing to the lowered
effectiveness -- once air temp gets much below freezing, the heat pump
really loses out and has to run much longer and as someone else noted,
you may be heating w/ resistance heating much of the time, anyway.

You might consider another alternative as well -- the ground loop heat
pump. More expensive to install initially because of the need for
burying the heat exchange loop, but if have sufficient area available,
can eliminate the need for resistance heating entirely and will
definitely be better efficiency than the air/air.

The switch out on water heating is almost entirely one of relative fuel
costs. The one other advantage of gas imo is if you have hard water,
the amount of tank fouling is much less w/ gas as the point-source
heating electrodes are much worse for that ime...

--

I plan to install a ground source heat pump when I replace my HVAC
eventually. One thing to keep in mind is that there are several ways to
install the ground loop and some installers are still pushing the
somewhat obsolete and much more expensive drilled vertical loop
installation or long loop horizontal installations. The newer trenched
vertical coil type installation is much cheaper to install and has been
proven to be equally efficient as the older methods. The trenched
vertical coil method cuts a narrow trench to a suitable depth and then
installs the loop piping like a flattened stretched out slinky.

Caesar Romano wrote:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote Re Gas or heat pump in Midwest?:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

A heat pump quickly looses it's efficiency advantage over resistance
heating when the temp falls below 35F. If you live in a "cold"
climate area, unless your electric rate is very low, gas is usually
more cost effective.

Only true for air source heat pumps, old technology. Geothermal a.k.a.
ground source heat pumps have no such issue due to stable soil
temperatures.

"Not@home" wrote:

First, get a good crystal ball and see what the utility rates are going
to be over the next 20 years. In my area, both have increased, but gas
has increased more. You should also find out the source of your
electricity; my sister lived in upstate NY and their electricity was
from the falls; I don't see the cost of that increasing as much as in my
area, where it is virtually all from generating plants. Incidentally,
I've read that many electrical power suppliers are building new plants
that use gas; that should increase the cost of both.

If your home now is all electric, you should find out how much it will
cost you to have the gas hooked up; if that is thousands of dollars, for
example, that could eat up a lot of savings from making the switch.

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

Pete C. wrote:
Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote Re Gas or heat pump in Midwest?:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.
A heat pump quickly looses it's efficiency advantage over resistance
heating when the temp falls below 35F. If you live in a "cold"
climate area, unless your electric rate is very low, gas is usually
more cost effective.

Only true for air source heat pumps, old technology. Geothermal a.k.a.
ground source heat pumps have no such issue due to stable soil
temperatures.

But I would estimate at least 90% of all new heat pumps installed are
still air/air and is what virtually anyone means/thinks of when hear
"heat pump"...

--

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
....

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

--

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Midwest where? Midwest Iowa a heat pump doesn't make much sense except for
minor savings in the transition seasons when the temps are not much below
freezing. Here in Midwest southern Missouri they work well with a 10k heat
strip for those few near zero temps.

As far as water heater, if you use the heat pump, then I would go all the
way with electric. Check with your electric company. You might get
discount rates if you put your heaters on a separate meter as my son and
b-i-l did in central Iowa.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?


Depends on local rates. Most areas, it's less expensive to heat using
gas. Electrically heated water is very expensive. Expect gas rate
prices are up 10% this coming winter. On top of that it's expected to
be a colder winter than average. My personal choice is all gas
appliances which I have. My current gas bill is $24.12 (nice!). My
electric bill is $215.17

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:33:22 -0400, "Not@home" wrote:


If your home now is all electric, you should find out how much it will
cost you to have the gas hooked up; if that is thousands of dollars, for
example, that could eat up a lot of savings from making the switch

Laclede Gas: Free for the first 75 feet from the main if installing something
other than a seasonal item like a gas fireplace. They will run the line and hang
a meter. User must plumb into the house

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:01:02 -0500, "Moe Jones" wrote:

One more thing to think about, standard air conditioning is allot easier to
work on than an heat-pump to allot of technicians. If the company you are
using and you feel they know what there doing, no problem.

Yeah, that's a big concern, The expertise of the HVAC techs I've seen run from
stupid to good, so you need a good tech to maintain it. Luckily my best friend
is a super tech.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:07:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:
I plan to install a ground source heat pump when I replace my HVAC
eventually. One thing to keep in mind is that there are several ways to
install the ground loop and some installers are still pushing the
somewhat obsolete and much more expensive drilled vertical loop
installation or long loop horizontal installations. The newer trenched
vertical coil type installation is much cheaper to install and has been
proven to be equally efficient as the older methods. The trenched
vertical coil method cuts a narrow trench to a suitable depth and then
installs the loop piping like a flattened stretched out slinky.

I've read about such systems but have never seen one installed. Is it a major
task involved to bury the loop? How long, large, and deep is the trench?

Steven Andrade wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 11:07:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote:
I plan to install a ground source heat pump when I replace my HVAC
eventually. One thing to keep in mind is that there are several ways to
install the ground loop and some installers are still pushing the
somewhat obsolete and much more expensive drilled vertical loop
installation or long loop horizontal installations. The newer trenched
vertical coil type installation is much cheaper to install and has been
proven to be equally efficient as the older methods. The trenched
vertical coil method cuts a narrow trench to a suitable depth and then
installs the loop piping like a flattened stretched out slinky.

I've read about such systems but have never seen one installed. Is it a major
task involved to bury the loop? How long, large, and deep is the trench?

Depends...

On how much capacity you need, where you are, type used...

In most locations you'll want it at a bare minimum of 4-ft and it should
be 6-ft or so to minimize the thermal swings (winter _and_ summer).

For a ranch w/ fully furnished basement of roughly 1700 sq-ft per level,
we had about 400 lin-ft of trench in E TN. As noted, there are some
newer techniques since then that may cut down the actual size needed.

I personally recommend talk to your local Water Furnace distributor. At
the time we did ours (15 years ago now, almost!!!) Oklahoma State had
the recognized best collection information source out there along w/
TVA. I've not looked recently to see, but I'd start there.

It cut our heating/cooling costs by nearly two-thirds over the air/air
unit it replaced...

We moved in '99, but just a year or two ago another friend in the
neighborhood still mentioned via e-mail he had seen the fella' who had
bought the house and asked and the unit was still fine w/ no maintenance.

--


--

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:33:22 -0400, "Not@home" wrote:


If your home now is all electric, you should find out how much it will
cost you to have the gas hooked up; if that is thousands of dollars, for
example, that could eat up a lot of savings from making the switch

Laclede Gas: Free for the first 75 feet from the main if installing something
other than a seasonal item like a gas fireplace. They will run the line and
hang
a meter. User must plumb into the house

That could motivate the water heater change or furnace change.

Bob

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote Re Gas or heat pump in Midwest?:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in it.
A heat pump quickly looses it's efficiency advantage over resistance
heating when the temp falls below 35F. If you live in a "cold"
climate area, unless your electric rate is very low, gas is usually
more cost effective.

Only true for air source heat pumps, old technology. Geothermal a.k.a.
ground source heat pumps have no such issue due to stable soil
temperatures.

But I would estimate at least 90% of all new heat pumps installed are
still air/air and is what virtually anyone means/thinks of when hear
"heat pump"...

Quite likely, which is why you have to specify "geothermal" or "ground
source". The air source units work ok in areas with outdoor air
temperatures that don't get too cold or hot, and are still cheaper than
ground source. Ground source have the advantage of near silent operation
in all cases since they don't have a big outdoor fan.

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

According to Pete C. :

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

We went through the process of costing out a geothermal. They
usually size it such that there will be a couple of days per year
where the geothermal _alone_ won't quite cut it, and put
supplementary heat in for those days. Also, it keeps you from
freezing up if something goes wrong with the HP.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to kjpro @ usenet.com:

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Don't know unless you post your utility rates, but my bet is that the HP is
going to be cheaper.

If the backup heat on the HP is gas, it will _always_ be cheaper. As
long as the gas prices don't overtake electric...
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:31:20 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Aye, there's the rub.

Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil.
While digging just 48 inches, the code required footing depth, I've
had to have 6 foot diameter boulders pulled out on a regular basis.
The old joke about farming in New England was that farmers mainly grew
stones...

A public school near me thought they'd install a ground source heat
pump to replace their oil fired boilers. They eventually gave up on
the idea when they discovered that the installation costs were
something like 5 times the cost of a conventional boiler replacement
and a payback time of 15 to 20 years.

They'd be better off simply putting the money in the bank.

Air to Air heat pumps around here are pretty much useless, at least in
terms of cost savings. As my building inspector said bluntly "they
aren't worth a damn in New England".

The two electric utility companies that serve most of CT have raised
their rates 25 to 40% in just the last 12 months. Thus any alternative
is now much better than electric heating or hot water making.

Doug

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

As I said, "55 or so". The soil temp is certainly far more stable than
the air temp, and again, a properly sized and installed ground loop will
have no issues. The nice thing about the ground loop is that since it's
just plastic pipe and the trenching is an easy install method, you can
readily calculate the correct loop size and then add 25% as a safety
margin since an oversized loop doesn't cause any issues and only costs a
bit more tubing and trenching. When I do my system I intend to do just
this as well as increase the trench depth some, again with no risk of
causing any problems, only adding safety margin.

Doug wrote:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:31:20 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Aye, there's the rub.

Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil.
While digging just 48 inches, the code required footing depth, I've
had to have 6 foot diameter boulders pulled out on a regular basis.
The old joke about farming in New England was that farmers mainly grew
stones...

CT is where I'm originally from and I've done plenty of trenching there
myself. You just have to bring in the correct equipment to do the job.
With the trenched vertical coil installation you don't need a wide
trench so you can bring in one of the Vermeer monsters for a day and
have your deep trench in no time since they have machines that will
trench through granite if needed. Not a cheap machine, but when you only
need it for a day...


A public school near me thought they'd install a ground source heat
pump to replace their oil fired boilers. They eventually gave up on
the idea when they discovered that the installation costs were
something like 5 times the cost of a conventional boiler replacement
and a payback time of 15 to 20 years.

A school i.e. commercial building vs. residence isn't a real good
comparison.


They'd be better off simply putting the money in the bank.

Air to Air heat pumps around here are pretty much useless, at least in
terms of cost savings. As my building inspector said bluntly "they
aren't worth a damn in New England".

Exactly, which is why geothermal heat pumps are necessary there and most
other places for the much greater efficiency due to the much more stable
source/sink temperature.


The two electric utility companies that serve most of CT have raised
their rates 25 to 40% in just the last 12 months. Thus any alternative
is now much better than electric heating or hot water making.

The best alternative is a lot more insulation. Also, I thought electric
generation / delivery had been unbundled in CT like most other areas, so
you have multiple supplier choices.

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.
I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.
The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

As I said, "55 or so". ...

Well, what you actually said was "stable 55 or so"... I was simply
pointing out it ain't as stable nor as near 55 as all that.

--

Doug wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:31:20 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.
I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Aye, there's the rub.

Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil....

Ayup. I'd think it would be even farther down than that to get 55F
year 'round. That's where the alternative to a well source begins to be
potentially attractive if there is a water table.

--

On Oct 11, 6:26 am, "Pete C." wrote:
dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

As I said, "55 or so". The soil temp is certainly far more stable than
the air temp, and again, a properly sized and installed ground loop will
have no issues. The nice thing about the ground loop is that since it's
just plastic pipe and the trenching is an easy install method, you can
readily calculate the correct loop size and then add 25% as a safety
margin since an oversized loop doesn't cause any issues and only costs a
bit more tubing and trenching. When I do my system I intend to do just
this as well as increase the trench depth some, again with no risk of
causing any problems, only adding safety margin.

55? Good grief! The frost line hereabouts is nearly 4 feet deep. No
wonder
nobody talks about geothermal heat pumps around here. You'd have to
dig
halfway to China to find anything like stable 55. And in my 13 feet
of yellow
clay, that's no picnic, even for a trencher.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Oct 11, 6:26 am, "Pete C." wrote:
dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

As I said, "55 or so". The soil temp is certainly far more stable than
the air temp, and again, a properly sized and installed ground loop will
have no issues. The nice thing about the ground loop is that since it's
just plastic pipe and the trenching is an easy install method, you can
readily calculate the correct loop size and then add 25% as a safety
margin since an oversized loop doesn't cause any issues and only costs a
bit more tubing and trenching. When I do my system I intend to do just
this as well as increase the trench depth some, again with no risk of
causing any problems, only adding safety margin.

55? Good grief! The frost line hereabouts is nearly 4 feet deep. No
wonder
nobody talks about geothermal heat pumps around here. You'd have to
dig
halfway to China to find anything like stable 55.

They also do drilled vertical loop configurations which work just about
everywhere.

And in my 13 feet
of yellow
clay, that's no picnic, even for a trencher.

Trust me, your clay would be a picnic for some of the trenchers that are
available. Vermeer makes one that will cut something like 12" wide x 10'
deep trenches through solid granite. Not something you'll get at your
local rental yard, but they are becoming more common, particularly in
areas of the northeast that have lots of solid shallow rock.

On Oct 11, 3:31 pm, "Pete C." wrote:
Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On Oct 11, 6:26 am, "Pete C." wrote:
dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
dpb wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.
Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.
I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

The point is that the 55F stable point is below the typical loop burial
depth as starters so the ground temperature around the loop will
rise/fall slightly w/ the seasons and it also isn't a perfect conductor.
Particularly when as a heat sink in the summer, temperatures near the
loop in the trench tend to rise.

When we installed the system in TN, it was the first buried ground loop
the installer had done (he had been working exclusively in a new
subdivision on a lake frontage area where loops were submerged in the
lake), so we instrumented the trench in several locations for the
information on how it differed as he was soon going to be in an area
that the distance to lakefront was going to make it impractical.

Even at 6-ft in a place no more extreme than E TN, the soil temperatures
were not constant.

--

As I said, "55 or so". The soil temp is certainly far more stable than
the air temp, and again, a properly sized and installed ground loop will
have no issues. The nice thing about the ground loop is that since it's
just plastic pipe and the trenching is an easy install method, you can
readily calculate the correct loop size and then add 25% as a safety
margin since an oversized loop doesn't cause any issues and only costs a
bit more tubing and trenching. When I do my system I intend to do just
this as well as increase the trench depth some, again with no risk of
causing any problems, only adding safety margin.

55? Good grief! The frost line hereabouts is nearly 4 feet deep. No
wonder
nobody talks about geothermal heat pumps around here. You'd have to
dig
halfway to China to find anything like stable 55.

They also do drilled vertical loop configurations which work just about
everywhere.

And in my 13 feet
of yellow
clay, that's no picnic, even for a trencher.

Trust me, your clay would be a picnic for some of the trenchers that are
available. Vermeer makes one that will cut something like 12" wide x 10'
deep trenches through solid granite. Not something you'll get at your
local rental yard, but they are becoming more common, particularly in
areas of the northeast that have lots of solid shallow rock

Considering that it's a long way down to solid anything around here,
I doubt there's much call for or availability of that kind of
equipment.

Well, I suppose geothermal is fine for those who are interested. I
just was
amazed about the stable 55 degrees recommendation. I'll stick to
forced-air
gas heat, hot water, and clothes drying. My electric bill is the same
year-round,
because what I spend on air-conditioning in the summer is matched
by what I spend heating the hot tub (outdoors, albeit well insulated)
in the
winter.

Cindy Hamilton

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to kjpro @ usenet.com:

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for
heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas
line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life
in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Don't know unless you post your utility rates, but my bet is that the HP
is
going to be cheaper.

If the backup heat on the HP is gas, it will _always_ be cheaper. As
long as the gas prices don't overtake electric...


Not true, it all comes down to current utility cost for ones area.
Electric may be cheaper, Gas may be cheaper... Oil may be cheaper... it's
all a guess without utility costs.

"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?


Depends on local rates.

You should have stopped here...

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:01:02 -0500, "Moe Jones"
wrote:

One more thing to think about, standard air conditioning is allot easier
to
work on than an heat-pump to allot of technicians. If the company you are
using and you feel they know what there doing, no problem.

Yeah, that's a big concern, The expertise of the HVAC techs I've seen run
from
stupid to good, so you need a good tech to maintain it. Luckily my best
friend
is a super tech.


If he's such a super tech...
Why are you not asking him your questions?

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Pete C. wrote:
Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote Re Gas or heat pump in Midwest?:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for
heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas
line for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life
in it.
A heat pump quickly looses it's efficiency advantage over resistance
heating when the temp falls below 35F. If you live in a "cold"
climate area, unless your electric rate is very low, gas is usually
more cost effective.

Only true for air source heat pumps, old technology. Geothermal a.k.a.
ground source heat pumps have no such issue due to stable soil
temperatures.

But I would estimate at least 90% of all new heat pumps installed are
still air/air and is what virtually anyone means/thinks of when hear
"heat pump"...


True, as most people call the other system by the name Geothermal.
Most people don't understand that both are virtually the same other than the
source for heating/cooling.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:38:23 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Doug wrote:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:31:20 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Aye, there's the rub.

Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil.
While digging just 48 inches, the code required footing depth, I've
had to have 6 foot diameter boulders pulled out on a regular basis.
The old joke about farming in New England was that farmers mainly grew
stones...

CT is where I'm originally from and I've done plenty of trenching there
myself. You just have to bring in the correct equipment to do the job.
With the trenched vertical coil installation you don't need a wide
trench so you can bring in one of the Vermeer monsters for a day and
have your deep trench in no time since they have machines that will
trench through granite if needed. Not a cheap machine, but when you only
need it for a day...


A public school near me thought they'd install a ground source heat
pump to replace their oil fired boilers. They eventually gave up on
the idea when they discovered that the installation costs were
something like 5 times the cost of a conventional boiler replacement
and a payback time of 15 to 20 years.

A school i.e. commercial building vs. residence isn't a real good
comparison.


They'd be better off simply putting the money in the bank.

Air to Air heat pumps around here are pretty much useless, at least in
terms of cost savings. As my building inspector said bluntly "they
aren't worth a damn in New England".

Exactly, which is why geothermal heat pumps are necessary there and most
other places for the much greater efficiency due to the much more stable
source/sink temperature.


The two electric utility companies that serve most of CT have raised
their rates 25 to 40% in just the last 12 months. Thus any alternative
is now much better than electric heating or hot water making.

The best alternative is a lot more insulation. Also, I thought electric
generation / delivery had been unbundled in CT like most other areas, so
you have multiple supplier choices.

Yes, rates have been unbundled to no good effect.
Remember what happened in California?

The only ones that have seen any benefit have been large commercial
users that have a better bargaining position.

Residential users have been able to access second tier suppliers who
offer a 5% discount on generation rates, but nothing off on
distribution rates.

Deregulation has been a failure around here....

Even the legislators are now complaining that they were sold a bill of
goods.

Electric deregulation only works if there is an ample competitive
supply.There isn't. Generating and distribution capacities are tight
in most parts of the country.

Doug

Doug wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 10:38:23 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Doug wrote:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:31:20 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

dpb wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Not@home" wrote:
...

My understanding is that heat pumps are more efficient, but need a
supplementary source of heat in areas where the winters are quite cold.

Air source heat pumps need supplemental (usually electric resistive)
heat in cold areas. Geothermal / ground source heat pumps don't since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are stable.

I'd revise that slightly as geothermal / ground source heat pumps _may_
not if sufficient heat source/sink capacity is available since
their coils are below frost lines and soil temps are relatively stable.

I'd revise that to "a geothermal heat pump with a correctly sized ground
loop" since in stable 55 or so degree soil a properly sized loop will
always be able to extract sufficient heat.

Aye, there's the rub.

Here in Connecticut where the frost line in mid-winter can easily get
down 40 to 48 inches, to get to that 55 degree point means burying
everything down at least 6 to 8 ft. That's pretty costly and sometimes
impossible here in New England with its bedrock and rocky soil.
While digging just 48 inches, the code required footing depth, I've
had to have 6 foot diameter boulders pulled out on a regular basis.
The old joke about farming in New England was that farmers mainly grew
stones...

CT is where I'm originally from and I've done plenty of trenching there
myself. You just have to bring in the correct equipment to do the job.
With the trenched vertical coil installation you don't need a wide
trench so you can bring in one of the Vermeer monsters for a day and
have your deep trench in no time since they have machines that will
trench through granite if needed. Not a cheap machine, but when you only
need it for a day...


A public school near me thought they'd install a ground source heat
pump to replace their oil fired boilers. They eventually gave up on
the idea when they discovered that the installation costs were
something like 5 times the cost of a conventional boiler replacement
and a payback time of 15 to 20 years.

A school i.e. commercial building vs. residence isn't a real good
comparison.


They'd be better off simply putting the money in the bank.

Air to Air heat pumps around here are pretty much useless, at least in
terms of cost savings. As my building inspector said bluntly "they
aren't worth a damn in New England".

Exactly, which is why geothermal heat pumps are necessary there and most
other places for the much greater efficiency due to the much more stable
source/sink temperature.


The two electric utility companies that serve most of CT have raised
their rates 25 to 40% in just the last 12 months. Thus any alternative
is now much better than electric heating or hot water making.

The best alternative is a lot more insulation. Also, I thought electric
generation / delivery had been unbundled in CT like most other areas, so
you have multiple supplier choices.

Yes, rates have been unbundled to no good effect.
Remember what happened in California?

California didn't actually deregulate, they tried to make the suppliers
eat varying wholesale prices while capping the retail price. It was a
typical CA scam and they ended up paying the price for it. No comparison
to states that actually did unbundle / deregulate.


The only ones that have seen any benefit have been large commercial
users that have a better bargaining position.

It seems to be working fine here in TX, where I have plenty of supplier
options.


Residential users have been able to access second tier suppliers who
offer a 5% discount on generation rates, but nothing off on
distribution rates.

I wouldn't expect anything off distribution rates since those costs are
pretty fixed and indeed need to increase most likely to fund the long
overdue overhaul of the grid. The generation costs are the variable ones
with different generation sources, fuel costs, etc.


Deregulation has been a failure around here....

Probably needs to be reviewed and compared with states where it's worked
ok to see what's different and what needs to change.


Even the legislators are now complaining that they were sold a bill of
goods.

That's what happens when the only listen to the lobbyists and don't
actually do their job and research a bit.


Electric deregulation only works if there is an ample competitive
supply.There isn't. Generating and distribution capacities are tight
in most parts of the country.

I've got quite a few suppliers available to me here in TX with varying
rates. No dramatic differences in rates, but wouldn't expect anything
too dramatic.

"Clark" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in news:7d890$470eaf0e$9440c41e$5982
@STARBAND.NET:


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to kjpro @ usenet.com:

"Steven Andrade" wrote in message
...
Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for
heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a
gas
line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a
gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of
life
in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?

Don't know unless you post your utility rates, but my bet is that the
HP
is
going to be cheaper.

If the backup heat on the HP is gas, it will _always_ be cheaper. As
long as the gas prices don't overtake electric...


Not true, it all comes down to current utility cost for ones area.
Electric may be cheaper, Gas may be cheaper... Oil may be cheaper...
it's
all a guess without utility costs.



Another negative and abusive post from kj the dancing monkey boi.


Abusive???


What part of: "as long as the gas prices don't overtake electric" do you
not understand? Clearly the poster understands utility pricing and the
thermodynamic cost of generating electricity in the majority of the
country. Clearly you don't understand much of anything.


I understand that you're completely ignorant.
No cure for stupidity yet, I'll let ya know when one becomes available.

"Clark" wrote in message
...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in news:da306$470eaf75$9440c41e$6016
@STARBAND.NET:


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 07:41:19 -0400, Steven Andrade
wrote:

Just bought a house that's all electric and has a heat pump for
heating.
Is that a good choice for the Midwest region? We're installing a gas
line
for a
fireplace and I wonder if I shouldn't replace the heat pump with a gas
unit when
it dies. It's 18 years old now so I don't see many more days of life
in
it.

How about the water heater? Gas or electric?


Depends on local rates.

You should have stopped here...

As usual kj offers nothing. Fact is that gas is cheaper than electricity
in
most of the US markets.


You just posted *another* inaccurate reply.
When are you going to get a clue? Or at least some education?

"Clark" wrote in message
...


The only thing you need to understand is that there's people working towards
a cure for stupidity.
When it becomes available, I'll let you know.
Until then, please stay away from your mother's computer!