Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

John Ross wrote:

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

Not getting into the NEC, but if you have access via a crawl space to
drop new ground wires down from the receptacles in question and run them
back to the panel, I'd simply run a complete new wire (romex 12/2
w/ground) and be done with it. The extra cost of the wire is piddly
compared to the labor required to run it, which should be about the same
whether it's running a single conductor or a full cable. If / when you
sell the place in the future, an add-on ground along side old two
conductor romex is likely to raise questions with any home inspectors /
buyers even if it's to code, vs. clean new runs of modern grounded
romex.

"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

Once the ground rod is driven and connected to the buss in the panel, it
also becomes attached to the existing water pipe ground which also runs to
the buss in the panel.
The individual ground conductor can be attached to any point along the
grounding electrode system. The most practical location is probably the
panel. IMO running ground conductors to non grounded outlets looks Rube
Goldberg, if it's not to dificult, I would run new cables to these outlets,
gang a few together in a jbox then run a line back to the panel

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

The approval for any electrical work is up to your local electrical
inspector. They usually have office hours and will answer questions. Take
plenty of pictures so the inspector can see what is what. (pictures of
house, outlets, electrical panels, existing grounding, etc.)

In my case I was required to install two grounds rods 6 ft. apart and run a
ground wire from these to the panel. And install a cold water pipe ground
and run this via a separate ground wire to the panel. Also to connect a
ground wire from the cold water pipe to the hot water pipe on the water
heater.

My ground system is good. If one ground wire gets broken or disconnected
(quite common actually), there is another ground wire and ground. Also there
is a "central point of ground", that being at the main electrical panel.

Once you get a good grounding system, then run new romex wires with ground
to outlets you want grounds on. Installing a separate 20 amp outlet on its
own breaker for the computer is a good idea.




"John Ross" wrote in message

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

John Ross wrote:
Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with its
own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into contact
with the plumbing.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
John Ross wrote:
Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.
This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel

Pete C. wrote:
John Ross wrote:

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

Not getting into the NEC, but if you have access via a crawl space to
drop new ground wires down from the receptacles in question and run them
back to the panel, I'd simply run a complete new wire (romex 12/2
w/ground) and be done with it. The extra cost of the wire is piddly
compared to the labor required to run it, which should be about the same
whether it's running a single conductor or a full cable. If / when you
sell the place in the future, an add-on ground along side old two
conductor romex is likely to raise questions with any home inspectors /
buyers even if it's to code, vs. clean new runs of modern grounded
romex.

Clarifiation: The wiring does not run in the crawlspace, so you would
not have a new ground running along side old 2 wire romex. Obviously,
if it was like that I can see your point.

The crawlspace is only being used so we don't have to tear up the
walls and rewire the whole house.

--
John

RBM remove this wrote:
"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

Once the ground rod is driven and connected to the buss in the panel, it
also becomes attached to the existing water pipe ground which also runs to
the buss in the panel.
The individual ground conductor can be attached to any point along the
grounding electrode system. The most practical location is probably the
panel. IMO running ground conductors to non grounded outlets looks Rube
Goldberg, if it's not to dificult, I would run new cables to these outlets,
gang a few together in a jbox then run a line back to the panel

I may have not made this clear, but the original wiring is NOT run in
the crawlspace. The idea is to drill a hole up through the floor and
bring the ground from receptacle down to crawlspace and then over to
panel.

I assume in this situation you could not just run a new romex to each
one unless it was dedicated?

As far as being connected to the water pipe. My understanding is that
back then they just connected it to the closest pipe to the panel. So
what I was asking is if the pipe connection should be connected closer
to the water entrance point of the house (which is the opposite side
of the house)?

Also, can you explain what he meant by "looping the grounds?" Any
search on that term brings up very negative things so I am not sure if
I have it in the right context.

thanks,
--
John

wrote:
On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 06:24:38 -0700, John Ross
wrote:

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one?

You can use a single equipment grounding conductor for several
circuits as long as it is sized to the biggest one.
I have seen people run one #8 solid as a bus and use split bolts to
pick up grounding pigtails from the various circuits along the way.
The code is really pretty ambiguous about wiring methods when you are
adding an EGC to a circuit that doesn't have one. As long as you are
getting back to the main bonding jumper with your ground (the bus in
the panel) in a solidly connected way you should be OK.

I was more concerned with the possibility of having the grounds run to
to a junction box, then have a single ground come out of that and then
have THAT connect to the panel. I saw someone say that the NEC for
this type of retrofit implies that each ground has to make a home run?

The other thing is that someone brought up something about creating a
magnetic loop (not sure if that is correct term) and implied that
could be a big problem in that it would raise resistance in the
grounds wires.

thanks

--

John Ross

RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.

This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel


This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John

RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.

This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel


This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John

On Sep 23, 9:21?am, John Ross wrote:
RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.
This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel

This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John

new bonded ground should be right where pipe leaves home.

how many AMPS is the main panel? 60? I would start by replacing the
main panel and service drop. Is your fuses?

Bill wrote:
The approval for any electrical work is up to your local electrical
inspector. They usually have office hours and will answer questions. Take
plenty of pictures so the inspector can see what is what. (pictures of
house, outlets, electrical panels, existing grounding, etc.)

In my case I was required to install two grounds rods 6 ft. apart and run a
ground wire from these to the panel. And install a cold water pipe ground
and run this via a separate ground wire to the panel. Also to connect a
ground wire from the cold water pipe to the hot water pipe on the water
heater.

My ground system is good. If one ground wire gets broken or disconnected
(quite common actually), there is another ground wire and ground. Also there
is a "central point of ground", that being at the main electrical panel.

Once you get a good grounding system, then run new romex wires with ground
to outlets you want grounds on. Installing a separate 20 amp outlet on its
own breaker for the computer is a good idea.


What was your original system?

The hot water heater connection is a good idea. I am going to do that
no matter what else.

--
John

wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:21?am, John Ross wrote:
RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.
This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel

This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John

new bonded ground should be right where pipe leaves home.

how many AMPS is the main panel? 60? I would start by replacing the
main panel and service drop. Is your fuses?

100 amps and breaker box. NO budget to upgrade that--I just want 2
grounded outlets!

As far as the new bonded ground being right where pipe leaves home, is
it ok to have one also farther away (i.e. original one)?

--
John

John Ross wrote:

wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:21?am, John Ross wrote:
RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet with
its own breaker is the best idea.
Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.
This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John
new bonded ground should be right where pipe leaves home.

how many AMPS is the main panel? 60? I would start by replacing the
main panel and service drop. Is your fuses?

100 amps and breaker box. NO budget to upgrade that--I just want 2
grounded outlets!

As far as the new bonded ground being right where pipe leaves home, is
it ok to have one also farther away (i.e. original one)?

--
John



I've grounded about a half dozen old outlets in my house.

I drill a tiny hole in the wall plate with a 54" long drill bit and
fished a green wire, then made a home run to the breaker panel. I used
a big split bolt connector to connect the new grounding wires to the big
Ground Electrode Conductor close to where it came out of the panel.

Bob

The only part of the water main pipe into your house that can be used as a
grounding electrode is the first five feet from the point of entrance. A
ground conductor attaches to the pipe and runs to the ground buss in your
main service panel. In addition to that electrode, essentially two driven
ground rods are required. They get driven six feet apart and another
conductor is connected to them and run back to the ground buss in the main
service panel, effectively bonding these rods to the service equipment and
the water pipe. Looping is probably someone's expression for bonding



"John Ross" wrote in message
oups.com...


RBM remove this wrote:
"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

Once the ground rod is driven and connected to the buss in the panel, it
also becomes attached to the existing water pipe ground which also runs
to
the buss in the panel.
The individual ground conductor can be attached to any point along the
grounding electrode system. The most practical location is probably the
panel. IMO running ground conductors to non grounded outlets looks Rube
Goldberg, if it's not to dificult, I would run new cables to these
outlets,
gang a few together in a jbox then run a line back to the panel

I may have not made this clear, but the original wiring is NOT run in
the crawlspace. The idea is to drill a hole up through the floor and
bring the ground from receptacle down to crawlspace and then over to
panel.

I assume in this situation you could not just run a new romex to each
one unless it was dedicated?

As far as being connected to the water pipe. My understanding is that
back then they just connected it to the closest pipe to the panel. So
what I was asking is if the pipe connection should be connected closer
to the water entrance point of the house (which is the opposite side
of the house)?

Also, can you explain what he meant by "looping the grounds?" Any
search on that term brings up very negative things so I am not sure if
I have it in the right context.

thanks,
--
John

Yes, move it and leave the existing connection alone




"John Ross" wrote in message
oups.com...


RBM wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Running a separate circuit (including ground) to a dedicated outlet
with
its own breaker is the best idea.

Think of the water pipes as a potential source of power - that's why
they
are grounded. The water pipes are not the SOURCE of a ground for the
electrical system - grounding pipes protects you when you come into
contact with the plumbing.

This is incorrect. Ten foot of buried metal water pipe is the source of
ground and is required to be bonded to other grounding electrodes and
attached to the service disconnect panel


This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

--
John

"John Ross" wrote in message


Bill wrote:
The approval for any electrical work is up to your local electrical
inspector. They usually have office hours and will answer questions. Take
plenty of pictures so the inspector can see what is what. (pictures of
house, outlets, electrical panels, existing grounding, etc.)

In my case I was required to install two grounds rods 6 ft. apart and run
a
ground wire from these to the panel. And install a cold water pipe ground
and run this via a separate ground wire to the panel. Also to connect a
ground wire from the cold water pipe to the hot water pipe on the water
heater.

My ground system is good. If one ground wire gets broken or disconnected
(quite common actually), there is another ground wire and ground. Also
there
is a "central point of ground", that being at the main electrical panel.

Once you get a good grounding system, then run new romex wires with
ground
to outlets you want grounds on. Installing a separate 20 amp outlet on
its
own breaker for the computer is a good idea.


What was your original system?

The hot water heater connection is a good idea. I am going to do that
no matter what else.


My original grounding system was no ground at all, an old rusted fuse box,
and all sorts of other nasty stuff in an 80 year old house...

John Ross wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
John Ross wrote:

Quick recap: 1960 house, crawlspace, 2 wire romex, grounds only run to
baths and kitchen, galvanized water pipe to street was used for
grounding (NO ground rod).

I want to ground 2 or 3 outlets and discussed going to a water pipe
method here. Everyone mentioned the "5 foot rule" per NEC. Some were
concerned about the ground not tripping the breaker. I have had
nothing but problems finding a good electrician in my town!!! I think
I finally did and want input on his plan.

Talking on the phone, he proposed the following and said it would pass
code (local):

1. Drive 8 foot ground rod and connect to panel.
2. From desired ungrounded receptacle(s) go through floor to
crawlspace with ground wire and run back to panel.
3. One receptacle is for pc, and he suggested doing same method, but
use new wire and make it a dedicated circuit so there would be no
interference or something with pc. Not sure if this is necessary?

In doing the above, how specifically should it be done to meet NEC?

If I understand, it will still need to be bonded to the water pipe.
Should that be within 5 foot of water entrance point? And can you bond
it to more than one place (i.e. to the 5 foot and also close to
panel?). I'm still not up to speed on this bonding concept, hence the
question.

Is there a specific way of doing it so that it will ensure that it
trips the breaker? Do the grounds go IN the panel or are they attached
to ground rod (assuming ground rod is attached to panel). Does it
matter?

At what point (if any) can the ground wires be combined into one? I
seem to remember something about you couldn't use a junction box--
everyone had to have a home run. I just don't understand enough about
this to know where that home run ends?

Not sure if this is relate to the above, but he did mention something
about "looping" the grounds--but I am not sure where he meant that or
what it means.

Hopefully, that is a good enough description that you can not only
answer questions, but raise any issues that you forsee (as you can
tell, I am not too up on electrical).

--
John

Not getting into the NEC, but if you have access via a crawl space to
drop new ground wires down from the receptacles in question and run them
back to the panel, I'd simply run a complete new wire (romex 12/2
w/ground) and be done with it. The extra cost of the wire is piddly
compared to the labor required to run it, which should be about the same
whether it's running a single conductor or a full cable. If / when you
sell the place in the future, an add-on ground along side old two
conductor romex is likely to raise questions with any home inspectors /
buyers even if it's to code, vs. clean new runs of modern grounded
romex.

Clarifiation: The wiring does not run in the crawlspace, so you would
not have a new ground running along side old 2 wire romex. Obviously,
if it was like that I can see your point.

The crawlspace is only being used so we don't have to tear up the
walls and rewire the whole house.

--
John

My point is that if you have access to the crawl space you can run new
12/2 w/ground romex to the receptacle locations and install new grounded
receptacles. The existing ungrounded wiring can simply be cut back and
abandoned in place in the walls (disconnected from power sources of
course).

I was looking at purchasing the house and found the separate ground
addition, I would be factoring in my cost to strip it out and replace it
"correctly" into any offer I made. Code compliance has no relevance in
such buyer decisions and even if the additional ground installation is
100% code compliant, a potential buyer is under no obligation to accept
it.

I know not every home maintenance decision should be based on future
sales worthiness, but the point here is that the material and labor
difference between doing the job in a manner likely to put off future
buyers, and doing the job in a more acceptable manner is relatively
small.

On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

The purpose of a green safety ground wire is to connect fault
electricity to the ground bus bar inside breaker box. Electric faults
must connect back to breaker box to trip a circuit breaker - for human
safety.

Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.

Your earth ground is those rod electrodes that are nearby the
breaker box and dedicated only for earthing. BTW, those rods should
be separated eight feet or more (not six feet). They bond the breaker
box, short, to earth ground.

That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building. This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.

Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground. Again, a connection for
same reason - to remove electricity from plumbing. Plumbing must not
carry electricity.

General concepts for safety grounding are summarized by volts500 in
alt.home.repair entitled "Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq
Post includes good safety tips such as hot water heater and meter
ground shunts.

"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?

The purpose of a green safety ground wire is to connect fault
electricity to the ground bus bar inside breaker box. Electric faults
must connect back to breaker box to trip a circuit breaker - for human
safety.

Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.

Your earth ground is those rod electrodes that are nearby the
breaker box and dedicated only for earthing. BTW, those rods should
be separated eight feet or more (not six feet). They bond the breaker
box, short, to earth ground.

Your grounding electrode system is those driven rods, 10 feet or more buried
metallic water pipe, well casing and any of a number of other types of
electrodes


NEC 250.53B Ground rod spacing minimum 6 feet apart, albeit 8 feet would
probably be better



That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building. This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.

Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground. Again, a connection for
same reason - to remove electricity from plumbing. Plumbing must not
carry electricity.

General concepts for safety grounding are summarized by volts500 in
alt.home.repair entitled "Grounding Rod Info" on 12 July 2003 at
http://tinyurl.com/hkjq
Post includes good safety tips such as hot water heater and meter
ground shunts.

w_tom wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?


Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.

Its the village idiot back again with his nonsense about water pipes.

Buried metal water service pipe at least 10 ft length has been
*required* to be used as a grounding electrode since 1777.

Grounding wires, that the OP is interested in, can connect in the first
5 feet of water pipe if the pipe is used as a grounding electrode.

“Remove electricity from water pipes” is technical illiteracy.


That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building.

If the pipe is only being ‘bonded’ (not used as an earthing electrode)
the connection does not have to be within 5 feet of the entrance. It is
not used as an earthing electrode only when less than 10 ft buried metal.

This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.

More technical illiteracy.


Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground.

Name one.

--
bud--

bud-- wrote:
w_tom wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?


Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.

Its the village idiot back again with his nonsense about water pipes.

Buried metal water service pipe at least 10 ft length has been
*required* to be used as a grounding electrode since 1777.

Grounding wires, that the OP is interested in, can connect in the first
5 feet of water pipe if the pipe is used as a grounding electrode.

"Remove electricity from water pipes" is technical illiteracy.


That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building.

If the pipe is only being 'bonded' (not used as an earthing electrode)
the connection does not have to be within 5 feet of the entrance. It is
not used as an earthing electrode only when less than 10 ft buried metal.

This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.

More technical illiteracy.


Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground.

Name one.

--
bud--

If it is connected at the first five feet and there is the all metal
water pipe, would it serve as BOTH a bonding and and additional
"ground"?

In my case the house already uses the water pipe as the only ground.
So if a ground rod was installed and then "bonded" to the pipe,
wouldn't the pipe still act as sorta a second ground anyway (like
having 2 ground rods, maybe)?

As far as your comment about it would be ok to just attach the ground
wire to the first five feet of the pipe to ground the outlet, doesn't
that contradict what you previously have said about that would not
trip the breaker and wanted me to make sure the wire went back to the
panel?

thanks,
--
John

John, the thing you're not getting is that it's a grounding electrode
system. Everything that is part of it is connected together and becomes one.
If your outlet ground was connected to the panel or the water pipe (first 5
feet) or a ground rod, it's all the same, as they are interconnected



"John Ross" wrote in message
ups.com...


bud-- wrote:
w_tom wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?


Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.

Its the village idiot back again with his nonsense about water pipes.

Buried metal water service pipe at least 10 ft length has been
*required* to be used as a grounding electrode since 1777.

Grounding wires, that the OP is interested in, can connect in the first
5 feet of water pipe if the pipe is used as a grounding electrode.

"Remove electricity from water pipes" is technical illiteracy.


That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building.

If the pipe is only being 'bonded' (not used as an earthing electrode)
the connection does not have to be within 5 feet of the entrance. It is
not used as an earthing electrode only when less than 10 ft buried metal.

This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.

More technical illiteracy.


Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground.

Name one.

--
bud--

If it is connected at the first five feet and there is the all metal
water pipe, would it serve as BOTH a bonding and and additional
"ground"?

In my case the house already uses the water pipe as the only ground.
So if a ground rod was installed and then "bonded" to the pipe,
wouldn't the pipe still act as sorta a second ground anyway (like
having 2 ground rods, maybe)?

As far as your comment about it would be ok to just attach the ground
wire to the first five feet of the pipe to ground the outlet, doesn't
that contradict what you previously have said about that would not
trip the breaker and wanted me to make sure the wire went back to the
panel?

thanks,
--
John

John Ross wrote:

bud-- wrote:
w_tom wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:22 am, John Ross wrote:
This is what I was getting at. Should the connection to the water pipe
be moved to within 5 feet of the entrance of the house (to be closer
to that 10 foot of pipe you refer to).And also does it matter if the
old connection is left (i.e. 2 places it is bonded at)?
Pipes must never be a carrier of electricity - an attitude change
from many decades ago. That cold water pipe ground clamp is to remove
electricity from water pipes; not to dump electricity into water
pipes. Its primary function is human safety.
Its the village idiot back again with his nonsense about water pipes.

Buried metal water service pipe at least 10 ft length has been
*required* to be used as a grounding electrode since 1777.

Grounding wires, that the OP is interested in, can connect in the first
5 feet of water pipe if the pipe is used as a grounding electrode.

"Remove electricity from water pipes" is technical illiteracy.

That safety ground wire to water pipe must be less than 5 feet from
where pipe enters the building.
If the pipe is only being 'bonded' (not used as an earthing electrode)
the connection does not have to be within 5 feet of the entrance. It is
not used as an earthing electrode only when less than 10 ft buried metal.

This for numerous reasons including to
pickup any stray currents that might enter from outside via city
water.
More technical illiteracy.

Some jurisdictions also want a steel bathtub bonded by a dedicated 6
AWG ground wire to breaker box safety ground.
Name one.


If it is connected at the first five feet and there is the all metal
water pipe, would it serve as BOTH a bonding and and additional
"ground"?

If a water pipe is used as a grounding electrode, it is "bonded" in the
process.


In my case the house already uses the water pipe as the only ground.
So if a ground rod was installed and then "bonded" to the pipe,
wouldn't the pipe still act as sorta a second ground anyway (like
having 2 ground rods, maybe)?

As RBM said, the grounding electrodes form a system. Your water pipe and
the added ground rod are *both* grounding electrodes for your electrical
service. You could have more electrodes. Your added ground wires to
receptacles can be connected anywhere in that *system*. That includes
the service panel ground bar, the first 5 feet of the water pipe and the
heavy connecting wires to the water pipe and ground rod.

An added ground rod can be connected anywhere in the present water pipe
grounding electrode system (but there are rules). An added ground rod
would probably not be connected to the first 5 feet of water pipe (but
it could be) - there are usually better places to make the connection.

I would usually make added connections to the heavy connecting wires
using a split bolt (also known as a karnie).


As far as your comment about it would be ok to just attach the ground
wire to the first five feet of the pipe to ground the outlet, doesn't
that contradict what you previously have said about that would not
trip the breaker and wanted me to make sure the wire went back to the
panel?

I believe I said there has to be a *metal* path back to the panel.

What is not allowed is using the earth as part of the path - like
connecting your added ground wires only to a ground rod with no
additional metal path to the electrical service. I questioned using a
ground rod as "insurance" for a metal path because a ground rod (with
earth path) provides very bad "insurance".

--
bud--

On Sep 26, 9:04 am, John Ross wrote:
If it is connected at the first five feet and there is the all metal
water pipe, would it serve as BOTH a bonding and and additional
"ground"?

In my case the house already uses the water pipe as the only ground.
So if a ground rod was installed and then "bonded" to the pipe,
wouldn't the pipe still act as sorta a second ground anyway (like
having 2 ground rods, maybe)?

The heart of a human safety ground system is a bus bar inside that
breaker box. Everything it grounds (bonds to) must connect directly
to that bus bar by approved materials. For example, you cannot
connect a wall receptacle to an earth ground or water pipe. Neither
earth nor pipe to is approved to make that connection. Code says
there must be a direct wire connection from wall receptacle grounds to
breaker box safety ground. Each ground for each circuit must connect
directly back to the breaker box safety ground. Each wire that earths
that bus bar also must connect directly back to the breaker box. Code
even defines which conductors can only make that connection.

Connecting a ground rod to breaker box via any pipes is not valid.
The ground rod will better earth a water pipe. But from the
perspective of a breaker box, that is still only a water pipe
connection - no longer sufficient for earthing.

Irrelevant is whether your water pipe does or does not create an
earth ground. Your breaker box must be earthed by some other earthing
electrode with its own dedicated connection - regardless of whether a
water pipe ground does or does not exist.

Code is quite blunt about it. The code lists electrodes that are
sufficient for a breaker box earth ground. Cold water pipe is no
longer on that list. The water pipe is only an earth ground that can
be an 'also' earth ground. Water pipe earth ground is no longer
sufficient. Code lists other electrodes that must make ant earth
ground. List includes the dedicated ground rod, a large earthing
plate, or an Ufer ground. Each must make a dedicated connection to
breaker box safety ground using listed conductors. Pipes, which are
installed for other (non-electrical) purposes, are no longer
sufficient for earthing.

Take everything Bud posts with a grain of salt. Truth is not a
strong suite with salesmen - especially those who only learn from
salesmen classes. What jurisdictions now required steel bathtubs
bonded to breaker box safety ground? Many including mine. If Bud had
any experience, he would know that. But the point of that example:
pipes are not longer sufficient for bonding or earthing anything.
Pipes bonding a steel bathtub, in some jurisdictions, are no longer
considered sufficient for human safety. If a pipe is being used for
earthing, one must still install another earthing electrode as if the
pipe did not even exist.

It does not matter if a metal connection exists. Conductor that
connects an earthing electrode to that bus bar inside a breaker box
must be 'listed' - approved for making a connection. Totally
irrelevant is whether a connection is metal. It must be even better.
It must be approved for making that connection.

Even if bonding an earth ground rod to a water pipe, to the breaker
box, that is only a water pipe earth ground. To meet post 1990 code
requirements, that earth ground rod must be bonded directly to the
breaker box via 6 AWG bare copper wire. Water pipes are no long
acceptable as a connecting device. When bonding an earth ground rod
via water pipes, then you are using pipes as a conductor. Water pipes
are no longer sufficient for earthing AND are not approved for making
that electrical connection.

I never saw such a pile of cockamamie nonsense in my life. Instead of
dreaming this stuff up, Please direct us to the locations in the NEC where
we can find this "information"


"w_tom" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 26, 9:04 am, John Ross wrote:
If it is connected at the first five feet and there is the all metal
water pipe, would it serve as BOTH a bonding and and additional
"ground"?

In my case the house already uses the water pipe as the only ground.
So if a ground rod was installed and then "bonded" to the pipe,
wouldn't the pipe still act as sorta a second ground anyway (like
having 2 ground rods, maybe)?

The heart of a human safety ground system is a bus bar inside that
breaker box. Everything it grounds (bonds to) must connect directly
to that bus bar by approved materials. For example, you cannot
connect a wall receptacle to an earth ground or water pipe. Neither
earth nor pipe to is approved to make that connection. Code says
there must be a direct wire connection from wall receptacle grounds to
breaker box safety ground. Each ground for each circuit must connect
directly back to the breaker box safety ground. Each wire that earths
that bus bar also must connect directly back to the breaker box. Code
even defines which conductors can only make that connection.

Connecting a ground rod to breaker box via any pipes is not valid.
The ground rod will better earth a water pipe. But from the
perspective of a breaker box, that is still only a water pipe
connection - no longer sufficient for earthing.

Irrelevant is whether your water pipe does or does not create an
earth ground. Your breaker box must be earthed by some other earthing
electrode with its own dedicated connection - regardless of whether a
water pipe ground does or does not exist.

Code is quite blunt about it. The code lists electrodes that are
sufficient for a breaker box earth ground. Cold water pipe is no
longer on that list. The water pipe is only an earth ground that can
be an 'also' earth ground. Water pipe earth ground is no longer
sufficient. Code lists other electrodes that must make ant earth
ground. List includes the dedicated ground rod, a large earthing
plate, or an Ufer ground. Each must make a dedicated connection to
breaker box safety ground using listed conductors. Pipes, which are
installed for other (non-electrical) purposes, are no longer
sufficient for earthing.

Take everything Bud posts with a grain of salt. Truth is not a
strong suite with salesmen - especially those who only learn from
salesmen classes. What jurisdictions now required steel bathtubs
bonded to breaker box safety ground? Many including mine. If Bud had
any experience, he would know that. But the point of that example:
pipes are not longer sufficient for bonding or earthing anything.
Pipes bonding a steel bathtub, in some jurisdictions, are no longer
considered sufficient for human safety. If a pipe is being used for
earthing, one must still install another earthing electrode as if the
pipe did not even exist.

It does not matter if a metal connection exists. Conductor that
connects an earthing electrode to that bus bar inside a breaker box
must be 'listed' - approved for making a connection. Totally
irrelevant is whether a connection is metal. It must be even better.
It must be approved for making that connection.

Even if bonding an earth ground rod to a water pipe, to the breaker
box, that is only a water pipe earth ground. To meet post 1990 code
requirements, that earth ground rod must be bonded directly to the
breaker box via 6 AWG bare copper wire. Water pipes are no long
acceptable as a connecting device. When bonding an earth ground rod
via water pipes, then you are using pipes as a conductor. Water pipes
are no longer sufficient for earthing AND are not approved for making
that electrical connection.

On Sep 26, 8:00 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I never saw such a pile of cockamamie nonsense in my life. Instead of
dreaming this stuff up, Please direct us to the locations in the NEC where
we can find this "information"

Instead of posting denials, instead, ask about the sentences you do
not understand.

Meanwhile, if you think pipes are acceptable as electrical
conductors, then don't bother. If you don't even know that basic
concept, then ignorance will not even be justified by a reply.

Virtually everything you wrote is baseless incoherent gibberish, otherwise
you'd be able to produce some NEC documentation to back it up



"w_tom" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 26, 8:00 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
I never saw such a pile of cockamamie nonsense in my life. Instead of
dreaming this stuff up, Please direct us to the locations in the NEC
where
we can find this "information"

Instead of posting denials, instead, ask about the sentences you do
not understand.

Meanwhile, if you think pipes are acceptable as electrical
conductors, then don't bother. If you don't even know that basic
concept, then ignorance will not even be justified by a reply.

w_tom wrote:

On Sep 26, 8:00 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

I never saw such a pile of cockamamie nonsense in my life. Instead of
dreaming this stuff up, Please direct us to the locations in the NEC where
we can find this "information"


Instead of posting denials, instead, ask about the sentences you do
not understand.

Meanwhile, if you think pipes are acceptable as electrical
conductors, then don't bother. If you don't even know that basic
concept, then ignorance will not even be justified by a reply.


Gee. NEC seems to think that water pipes are permitted as Grounding electrodes.
Section 250.52(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
subsection (1) "Metal Underground Wter Pipe"
Go read it if you can.

RBM remove this wrote:
John, the thing you're not getting is that it's a grounding electrode
system. Everything that is part of it is connected together and becomes one.
If your outlet ground was connected to the panel or the water pipe (first 5
feet) or a ground rod, it's all the same, as they are interconnected

I think one thing that throws me off is that when they built these
houses, they just connected to the nearest water pipe to the panel
(which is on the opposite side of house where water pipe enters). I
had an electrician come out and told me he would drive a ground rod
and just leave the pipe bond alone (since it is "already connected").
I asked about the 5 foot thing and as EVERY electrician in this town I
have talked to, get a blank look or a "I never heard of that." You can
see why I am going crazy.

But back to your comment about the "grounding electrode system." I
thought that 5 foot rule was because of people replacing pipes with
plastic. OK, so that makes sense if you look at it as a ground to
earth. In other words, if someone adds a plastic pipe past the 5 foot,
you now have the earth ground, but I thought the idea of "bonding"
pipes was to (also) protect the pipes from becoming energized if a hot
wire touches one. So wouldn't you want a requirement to have it bonded
to other parts beyond the 5 foot also?

Another thing: Not one electrician has told me anything about 2 ground
rods; they just say one. Is that a requirement, or just something you
think is better?

Thanks for the patience It seems my city doesn't have one competent
electrician!

--
John

bud-- wrote:
John Ross said:
As far as your comment about it would be ok to just attach the ground
wire to the first five feet of the pipe to ground the outlet, doesn't
that contradict what you previously have said about that would not
trip the breaker and wanted me to make sure the wire went back to the
panel?

I believe I said there has to be a *metal* path back to the panel.

What is not allowed is using the earth as part of the path - like
connecting your added ground wires only to a ground rod with no
additional metal path to the electrical service. I questioned using a
ground rod as "insurance" for a metal path because a ground rod (with
earth path) provides very bad "insurance".

Yes, I remember that was the guy who wanted to just put a ground rod
in and connect it to the water pipe. I think that is when you got into
different resistances(?) and might not go back to the panel and thus
not trip breaker. So if the new ground rod IS connected to the panel,
and the water pipe still serves as a ground, then you are saying that
is not a concern as far as tripping breaker if added ground wire is
connected at any point? I guess I got mixed up, but I thought you were
saying that the ground rod had more resistance than the water pipe. So
am I correct in that you were just concerned about that if the ground
rod was not connected to the panel?

That would clear up some confusion, because I was thinking you were
saying that adding the ground rod might actually give an inferior
ground that what I already have.

Thanks for your patience also I wish you or RBM could come out and
do the job!

--
John

M Q wrote:
w_tom wrote:

On Sep 26, 8:00 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

I never saw such a pile of cockamamie nonsense in my life. Instead of
dreaming this stuff up, Please direct us to the locations in the NEC
where
we can find this "information"


Instead of posting denials, instead, ask about the sentences you do
not understand.

Meanwhile, if you think pipes are acceptable as electrical
conductors, then don't bother. If you don't even know that basic
concept, then ignorance will not even be justified by a reply.


Gee. NEC seems to think that water pipes are permitted as Grounding
electrodes.
Section 250.52(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
subsection (1) "Metal Underground Wter Pipe"
Go read it if you can.


Not only permitted - they are *required* to be used as electrodes.

w_ uses google-groups to find "grounding" so he can post his bullcrap.
He gets corrected regularly on this newsgroup, but it doesn't matter.
You can't argue with a Jehovah's witness.

--
bud--

On Sep 27, 9:19 am, John Ross wrote:
Yes, I remember that was the guy who wanted to just put a ground rod
in and connect it to the water pipe. I think that is when you got into
different resistances(?) and might not go back to the panel and thus
not trip breaker.

Apparently, you are talking about connecting a ground rod to a 6 AWG
wire that also connects to water pipe. But that is not what you
posted. You posted bonding a ground rod directly to water pipe which
is not acceptable.

That '5 foot' requirement is for numerous reasons. One is due to
currents existing outside the building. A water pipe entering the
building must be bonded to the breaker box safety ground where those
currents would enter the building. Those currents would only travel
inside the builiding on less than 5 feet.

Better ground means no wire splices. Although not require by code,
you want that earthing rod to be connected by a continuous 6 AWG wire
- no splices.

One ground rod is sufficient if its resistance measures less than 25
ohms. Many electricians don't even know how to measure that
resistance. Code does not even define how to measure it. But certain
soils are know to be sufficiently conductive. Therefore some
electricians assume one ground rod is less than 25 ohms.

Other electricians don't even bother 'guessing'. Code says that if
a second rod does not drop resistance below 25 ohms, then nothing more
need be done. Therefore other electricians automatically install two
rods, don't care what the earthing resistance is, and don't buy an
expensive ground resistance measuring tool.

I am appauled that you would have Bud do any electrical work. He is
a salesman - all about presentation and severely short on electrical
knowledge. His knowledge comes only from reading books and taking
seminars. He is a promoter - a snake oil salesman - has been exposed
lying.

Not anything metal can be used as Bud posts. For example, not any
split bolt can be used. Grounding must be only with a split bolt that
is also listed (approved). Not any pipe or rod can be used. Those
too must be listed. Of course, this is not a problem. Electrical
supply houses only sell earth ground rods that are listed. The point
is that everything in that connection from ground rod to breaker box
safety ground must be approved for that function.

Connecting a ground rod to the water pipe - using the water pipe as
a connection from ground rod to breaker box - violates code
requirements for earthing. Whatever makes that connection must be
'listed' as a conductor. Water pipe is not approved as an electrical
conductor. Only connection to a pipe is to remove electricity. Using
pipes as an electrical conductor - dumping electricity into water
pipes - is no longer permitted.

Folks:

w_tom is slipping. I keep throwing random refs to surge protectors
into Usenet and private-forum posts, and he never comes in to reply.
Such neglect.

Correct me if I am wrong, but there was a time when the NEC
allowed one to ground equipment to a nearby water pipe. Of
course, there was also a time (look at the 1899 code, which is
posted online somewhere) when they allowed one to use a gas
pipe as a grounding electrode. The time for either of those is
not today.

Back when men were men and jackets were braided, one could
safely assume that all pipes were metal. Metal pipes full of water
from the ground to the might well provide a nice low-impedance
path to ground. But we can't assume that now. My own house
has all metal pipes. Were I to open up a 2nd floor wall, and install
a ground clamp on a cold water pipe, and test the ground, it
would probably be excellent. But then the wall is closed, the
clamp forgotten.

Down the road, somebody replaces sections of the copper cold
water pipes with plastic. Now I have a ground connected to a
pipe, connected to nothing, and unless somebody tests the
ground before and after plumbing, nobody is going to know
about it. One day there is a direct short to ground. Fixtures
have been replumbed with plastic supply connectors, except
one old sink with separate hot and cold faucets. The cold
faucet is now hot. The hot faucet is still bonded to ground
at the water heater. Somebody turns one on, and reaches
for the other...

In any case, a falsely advertised ground is bad enough; a
ground that goes to unbonded metal is worse, and that's what
grounding to a water pipe can get you. Sometimes I see
washers or dryers that had been grounded to a nearby pipe.
This isn't as bad in an unfinished basement; you can see all
the pipe, but it's also the situation where putting in a run of
grounded cable and a new receptacle is very easy.

Besides, if you're going to pull a single conductor into a
space, you might as well pull in a cable, as somebody up
there pointed out.

G P

On Sep 27, 1:35 am, M Q wrote:
Gee. NEC seems to think that water pipes are permitted as Grounding
electrodes. Section 250.52(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
subsection (1) "Metal Underground Wter Pipe"
Go read it if you can.

To perform electrical work, you are required to understand
everything in Article 250.52. If using water pipe for earth ground,
then any other electrode in Article 250.52(A) paragraphs two through
seven also must be installed. Why? Water pipes are no longer
sufficient for earthing. If using any other earthing electrode, then
a water pipe earthing electrode is not required. BUT if using the
water pipe for earthing, then the building remains insufficiently
earthed according to Article 250.52. Another electrode must be
installed.

"A metal underground water pipe shall be supplemented by an
additional electrode .... " A building must also be earthed by
structure frame, Ufer ground, ground ring (halo ground), or an
earthing plate or rod. Water pipe is no longer sufficient for
earthing. You are supposed to read everything; not read selectively.
Keep reading. Article 205.52(D)(2). Article 250 then continues
another 12 pages farther.

John Ross wrote:

bud-- wrote:
John Ross said:
As far as your comment about it would be ok to just attach the ground
wire to the first five feet of the pipe to ground the outlet, doesn't
that contradict what you previously have said about that would not
trip the breaker and wanted me to make sure the wire went back to the
panel?

I believe I said there has to be a *metal* path back to the panel.

What is not allowed is using the earth as part of the path - like
connecting your added ground wires only to a ground rod with no
additional metal path to the electrical service. I questioned using a
ground rod as "insurance" for a metal path because a ground rod (with
earth path) provides very bad "insurance".

Yes, I remember that was the guy who wanted to just put a ground rod
in and connect it to the water pipe. I think that is when you got into
different resistances(?) and might not go back to the panel and thus
not trip breaker. So if the new ground rod IS connected to the panel,
and the water pipe still serves as a ground, then you are saying that
is not a concern as far as tripping breaker if added ground wire is
connected at any point?

Your added ground wires can be connected at any point on the grounding
electrode system. At any point there will be low resistance back to the
ground bar in the service panel.

I guess I got mixed up, but I thought you were
saying that the ground rod had more resistance than the water pipe. So
am I correct in that you were just concerned about that if the ground
rod was not connected to the panel?

Yup.

Contrary to what the village idiot says, the resistance to earth of a
pipe connected to a municipal metal water supply will be much lower than
the resistance to earth of a ground rod.

Both are used to connect the *system* to earth so the system 'ground' is
at about the same potential as the earth.

That is not what the ground rod was being used for in the original scheme.


That would clear up some confusion, because I was thinking you were
saying that adding the ground rod might actually give an inferior
ground that what I already have.

Added to the existing system it improves the connection to earth. Your
house could just use the water pipe when it was built (same with all the
houses I have lived in). Because water service pipes in some locations
were being replaced with plastic the code started requiring an
additional electrode for new construction. Rods are the easiest to add.
(The code now generally requires adding a "concrete encased electrode"
for new construction.)


I wish you or RBM could come out and
do the job!

We're both probably available. Travel & expenses might be a little high.

--
bud--

In article .com, w_tom wrote:
To perform electrical work, you are required to understand
everything in Article 250.52. If using water pipe for earth ground,
then any other electrode in Article 250.52(A) paragraphs two through
seven also must be installed. Why? Water pipes are no longer
sufficient for earthing. If using any other earthing electrode, then
a water pipe earthing electrode is not required.

False. If metal water pipe is present, it is *required* to use it as a
grounding electrode in addition to the other electrodes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Sep 26, 10:04 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Virtually everything you wrote is baseless incoherent gibberish, otherwise
you'd be able to produce some NEC documentation to back it up

An intelligent reply would have cited what you have problems with.
But since you post insults, citing code numbers would not change your
mind. Shame on RBM for not even knowing what can and cannot be
conductors. Code is specific about what can be conductors. Pipes are
no longer permitted. Those who are still living in 1970s would not
know that pipes are not acceptable electrical conductors.

If spending more time reading, then your responses would be devoid
of insults. Profanity identifies one who typically finds reading
difficult - who do not know. It explains why RBM knows pipes are
acceptable as conductors. Profanity does not change the fact. Water
pipes are no longer approved for electrical conductors. RBM should
know that if posting recommendations here. Instead he posts profanity
- will not even state which parts he has problems with. Note to
self. Don't take RBM seriously. His intelligence is defined by his
reasoning - insults rather than facts.

On Sep 27, 11:26 am, wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but there was a time when the NEC
allowed one to ground equipment to a nearby water pipe. Of
course, there was also a time (look at the 1899 code, which is
posted online somewhere) when they allowed one to use a gas
pipe as a grounding electrode. The time for either of those is
not today.
...

Besides, if you're going to pull a single conductor into a
space, you might as well pull in a cable, as somebody up
there pointed out.

Using water pipes as conductors is not acceptable. We bond both
water pipes and gas pipes (some jurisdictions) for the same reason -
to remove electricity from those pipes. A bond to the gas pipe would
not be an earth ground since gas meters routinely have electric
insulators. Some jurisdictions want the gas pipe bonded to breaker
box safety ground; others do not. Consult the gas company for what
they want.

As w_tom repeatedly notes, the reason for pulling a cable is because
that cable is approved as a conductor. Pipe that was acceptable as a
condutor more than 30 years ago is no longer approved as a conductor
today.