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Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine
that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? Either the blade is loose, or the flywheel key is sheared, causing the timing to be off. Bob |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sep 15, 11:32 am, "Bob F" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? Either the blade is loose, or the flywheel key is sheared, causing the timing to be off. Bob Blade is tight...one of the first things I checked. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:32 am, "Bob F" wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message groups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? Either the blade is loose, or the flywheel key is sheared, causing the timing to be off. Bob Blade is tight...one of the first things I checked. Then, as the prvious poster indicated, the blade may have struck something solid, stopping the engine shaft suddendly, and the inertial energy in the flywheel made it want to keep turning so the flywheel key sheared. Now the flywheel is a little "forward" of where it needs to be, causing the spark to occur too soon. Pull the engine cover and the flywheel and if you find the key fully or partially sheared, replace it. The key itself costs next to nothing. HTH, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On 15 Sep, 14:05, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote: On Sep 15, 11:32 am, "Bob F" wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message groups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? Either the blade is loose, or the flywheel key is sheared, causing the timing to be off. Bob Blade is tight...one of the first things I checked. Then, as the prvious poster indicated, the blade may have struck something solid, stopping the engine shaft suddendly, and the inertial energy in the flywheel made it want to keep turning so the flywheel key sheared. Now the flywheel is a little "forward" of where it needs to be, causing the spark to occur too soon. Pull the engine cover and the flywheel and if you find the key fully or partially sheared, replace it. The key itself costs next to nothing. HTH, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks! Will I be able to/have to move the flywheel back to where it should be? Will it be obvious how to do that once I pull the cover? |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks! Will I be able to/have to move the flywheel back to where it should be? Will it be obvious how to do that once I pull the cover? It will be obvious. In fact you may be able to tell if the key is partially sheared without even removing the flywheel. just look at the shaft/flywheel contact area. If there's a square aluminum 'key' there and it's still square, it's not the problem. But, most likely you'll have to remove the flywheel to find out for sure. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:01:28 -0600, "Bob M." wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message roups.com... Thanks! Will I be able to/have to move the flywheel back to where it should be? Will it be obvious how to do that once I pull the cover? It will be obvious. In fact you may be able to tell if the key is partially sheared without even removing the flywheel. just look at the shaft/flywheel contact area. If there's a square aluminum 'key' there and it's still square, it's not the problem. But, most likely you'll have to remove the flywheel to find out for sure. I don't recall seeing the key being obvious; until I removed the retaining nut from the flywheel. You can test for movement in the flywheel (FW). Remove the plug wire for safety. With some help, hold the blade steady and rotate the FW to observe for any movement back and forth. It is not totally accurate, but a seriously damaged shear key will be obvious. YMMV. Small fractures in the key will not be obvious, as well! About the hammering on the shaft. I use a block of wood to deaden the blow AND I always leave the loosened nut on the shaft. It prevents damaged to the thread. -- Oren "I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it." |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:34:19 -0400, Meat Plow
wrote: The key ensures the proper position of the flywheel so there is no guesswork. They can be a booger now and then; when placing the FW on. The key might slip a tad. I use a tiny bit a grease to help hold the key in the crank slot - if I ever have to do it again. :) -- Oren "Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly." |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
It does sound like the timing has advanced. And the only way for that to
happen is for the key in the flywheel to shear and the flywheel slip on the crank. I'd check that first. s OR you have some really **** poor gas. G "DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sep 15, 6:10 pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:34:19 -0400, Meat Plow wrote: The key ensures the proper position of the flywheel so there is no guesswork. They can be a booger now and then; when placing the FW on. The key might slip a tad. I use a tiny bit a grease to help hold the key in the crank slot - if I ever have to do it again. :) -- Oren "Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly." Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or
detonate it self to death. steve "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ps.com... Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sep 15, 8:01 pm, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote: If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. steve "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ps.com... Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - - If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. THEN do I get to buy a new one? ;-) |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ups.com... On Sep 15, 8:01 pm, "Steve Barker LT" wrote: If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. steve "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ps.com... Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - - If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. THEN do I get to buy a new one? ;-) You could buy a new one now. I agree with Steve, you could do some serious damage by running it without fixing it first. My next door neighboor tried to "get a few more mowings" out of a motor that need to be on full choke to run. Totally messed up the valves. He got to buy a new one. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message ... It does sound like the timing has advanced. And the only way for that to happen is for the key in the flywheel to shear and the flywheel slip on the crank. I'd check that first. s OR you have some really **** poor gas. G Gasoline contaminated with kerosene can have the same effect. Don Young "DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine that is trying to hurt me. When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm back towards the mower. When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used too. The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall sales flyers? |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sep 15, 5:29 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 15, 8:01 pm, "Steve Barker LT" wrote: If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. steve "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ups.com... Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - - If the timing is advanced too far, it will burn a hole in the piston or detonate it self to death. THEN do I get to buy a new one? ;-)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Be sure to get the correct key, it will be made of softer metal, not steel. They are designed to shear if the blade hits something solid so that the motor itself is not wrecked by a sudden stop. It probably is not sheared completely, even a slight 'nick' will throw the timing off. Harry K Harry K |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
sure. If you've got money to blow and are wasteful. go for it. Hell, put
it in the dumpster now and buy a new one. Why wait? No need to make a simple repair when you can have new new new stuff and outshine your neighbor. s "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ups.com... THEN do I get to buy a new one? ;-) |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
Oren wrote:
snipped About the hammering on the shaft. I use a block of wood to deaden the blow AND I always leave the loosened nut on the shaft. It prevents damaged to the thread. And it keeps the flywheel from flying off if you're pulling up on it real hard, and whacking you in the forehead. (DAMHIKT) Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. Your choice. It'll take less time to fix than to buy a new one. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On 17 Sep, 09:18, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: The last time I had one do that, the blade was loose from the crank shaft. Flip the mower on its side, and see if the blade is tight. The other person's suggestion about flywheel out of time, that's also very possible. -- . Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus http://www.lds.org/portal/site/LDSOrg http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/ ."DerbyDad03" wrote in message oups.com... : I've got a Toro mower (Model 20016) with a 4 cycle Tecumseh engine : that is trying to hurt me. : : When I try to start it, the start cable will pull out about half-way, : under normal starting tension, and then it feels like the compression : of the engine trys to yank it back in. It will violently pull my arm : back towards the mower. : : When it eventually does start, there are 3 - 4 loud knocks (*not* : backfires) and then the mower runs fairly normally. I say "fairly : normally" because it no longer runs as smooth and quiet as it used : too. : : The mower is at least 4 years old. Should I be looking at the fall : sales flyers? : Thank you for ignoring the 3rd reply in this thread. :-) |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:32:14 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: Oren wrote: snipped About the hammering on the shaft. I use a block of wood to deaden the blow AND I always leave the loosened nut on the shaft. It prevents damaged to the thread. And it keeps the flywheel from flying off if you're pulling up on it real hard, and whacking you in the forehead. (DAMHIKT) How _old_ is your T-shirt? :-/ -- Oren ...through the use of electrical or duct tape, achieve the configuration in the photo.. |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ps.com... On Sep 15, 6:10 pm, Oren wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:34:19 -0400, Meat Plow wrote: The key ensures the proper position of the flywheel so there is no guesswork. They can be a booger now and then; when placing the FW on. The key might slip a tad. I use a tiny bit a grease to help hold the key in the crank slot - if I ever have to do it again. :) -- Oren "Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly." Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. The next time you start it, the rope will break. Then you'll need to fix that too. It's not that big of a deal to fix. Get brave and give it a try. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm Bob |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On 17 Sep, 21:26, "Bob F" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message ps.com... On Sep 15, 6:10 pm, Oren wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:34:19 -0400, Meat Plow wrote: The key ensures the proper position of the flywheel so there is no guesswork. They can be a booger now and then; when placing the FW on. The key might slip a tad. I use a tiny bit a grease to help hold the key in the crank slot - if I ever have to do it again. :) -- Oren "Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly." Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. The next time you start it, the rope will break. Then you'll need to fix that too. It's not that big of a deal to fix. Get brave and give it a try. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - A note of thanks to all who offered help... So I finally decided to attack the mower last weekend - I mowed Saturday morning and had no problems other than the hard starts and knocking, same symptoms as before. Later that day my son tried to start the mower and found that the blade was extremely loose, which was not the case during earlier inspections. He tightened the blade, tried to start it again and the blade loosened up immediately. It turned out that in addition to the starting problems, the welds on the driver-blade assembly had broken free. This is the part that not only secures the blade to the shaft, but also has the pully that powers the front-wheel drive. Now I have to either fix or trash the mower. I pulled the engine cover and shroud to find (as many you suggested) that the flywheel key was broken and the flywheel had shifted significantly. Now I had to figure out how to get the flywheel off. A quick Google search found this page which shows a home made tool for pulling the flywheel on Tucumseh engine: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm#lmflyrml Coincidentally, that's located at the same repair site that Bob suggested. Anyway, 15 minutes later I had the flywheel off and was on my way to the mower repair shop. $70 dollars later I had a flywheel key, a driver-blade assembly, a drive belt and a new mulching blade. Since the mower absolutely needed a blade anyway, I figure the repair cost was really only $50. The mower now starts with no more than 2 pulls when cold, half a pull when warm. Thanks again! |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
On Oct 17, 6:34 am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 17 Sep, 21:26, "Bob F" wrote: "DerbyDad03" wrote in message ups.com... On Sep 15, 6:10 pm, Oren wrote: On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 15:34:19 -0400, Meat Plow wrote: The key ensures the proper position of the flywheel so there is no guesswork. They can be a booger now and then; when placing the FW on. The key might slip a tad. I use a tiny bit a grease to help hold the key in the crank slot - if I ever have to do it again. :) -- Oren "Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly." Assuming the FW key is the problem, how bad is it for the mower to run like this? It's September in Upstate NY, so I only have a few more mows before I'd be putting it up for the winter anyway. I'd just as soon wait until the season's over before my first foray into small engine repair. The next time you start it, the rope will break. Then you'll need to fix that too. It's not that big of a deal to fix. Get brave and give it a try. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - A note of thanks to all who offered help... So I finally decided to attack the mower last weekend - I mowed Saturday morning and had no problems other than the hard starts and knocking, same symptoms as before. Later that day my son tried to start the mower and found that the blade was extremely loose, which was not the case during earlier inspections. He tightened the blade, tried to start it again and the blade loosened up immediately. It turned out that in addition to the starting problems, the welds on the driver-blade assembly had broken free. This is the part that not only secures the blade to the shaft, but also has the pully that powers the front-wheel drive. Now I have to either fix or trash the mower. I pulled the engine cover and shroud to find (as many you suggested) that the flywheel key was broken and the flywheel had shifted significantly. Now I had to figure out how to get the flywheel off. A quick Google search found this page which shows a home made tool for pulling the flywheel on Tucumseh engine: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm#lmflyrml Coincidentally, that's located at the same repair site that Bob suggested. Anyway, 15 minutes later I had the flywheel off and was on my way to the mower repair shop. $70 dollars later I had a flywheel key, a driver-blade assembly, a drive belt and a new mulching blade. Since the mower absolutely needed a blade anyway, I figure the repair cost was really only $50. The mower now starts with no more than 2 pulls when cold, half a pull when warm. Thanks again!- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Thanks for the update. Harry K |
Lawn Mower Compression & Dislocated Shoulders
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message It's not that big of a deal to fix. Get brave and give it a try. http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - A note of thanks to all who offered help... So I finally decided to attack the mower last weekend - I mowed Saturday morning and had no problems other than the hard starts and knocking, same symptoms as before. Later that day my son tried to start the mower and found that the blade was extremely loose, which was not the case during earlier inspections. He tightened the blade, tried to start it again and the blade loosened up immediately. It turned out that in addition to the starting problems, the welds on the driver-blade assembly had broken free. This is the part that not only secures the blade to the shaft, but also has the pully that powers the front-wheel drive. Now I have to either fix or trash the mower. I pulled the engine cover and shroud to find (as many you suggested) that the flywheel key was broken and the flywheel had shifted significantly. Now I had to figure out how to get the flywheel off. A quick Google search found this page which shows a home made tool for pulling the flywheel on Tucumseh engine: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lmfaq.htm#lmflyrml Coincidentally, that's located at the same repair site that Bob suggested. Anyway, 15 minutes later I had the flywheel off and was on my way to the mower repair shop. $70 dollars later I had a flywheel key, a driver-blade assembly, a drive belt and a new mulching blade. Since the mower absolutely needed a blade anyway, I figure the repair cost was really only $50. The mower now starts with no more than 2 pulls when cold, half a pull when warm. And the next time, you can answer this question. Bob |
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