So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

The connection was probably loose, overheated, and burned. Just replace the
switch and any charred sections of conductor



"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:56:35 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

With the power off, take the switch loose and wire nut the two wires
together that were going to the switch. If the pump works then
replace the switch. If it trips the breaker call an electrician.

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

The connection was probably loose, overheated, and burned. Just replace the
switch and any charred sections of conductor

Thanks, I'll do that.

In article ,
Terry wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:56:35 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

With the power off, take the switch loose and wire nut the two wires
together that were going to the switch. If the pump works then
replace the switch. If it trips the breaker call an electrician.

Okay. This is a new pump, I'm not likely to mess with the guarantee or
anything if I do this?

Kurt Ullman wrote:
So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

It may just be that whoever attached what you call "that spade thing" to
the black wire didn't make a solid crimp and the joint developed high
resistance over time, heated up, arced enough to melt the metal and failed.

Try shutting off the breaker feeding power to the switch and connect the
black wire directly under the switch's terminal screw by bending a half
loop on the wire.

Clean the wire and the switch terminal and screw so they are bright and
shiny before attaching the wire to the switch, and tighten that screw
firmly. (Check the other switch screw for tightness while you're at it.)

Turn the breaker back on and see how things go. Report back with results.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

In the event that the pump is toast, Terry is just saving you time in
replacing the switch on a bad pump



"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Terry wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:56:35 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

With the power off, take the switch loose and wire nut the two wires
together that were going to the switch. If the pump works then
replace the switch. If it trips the breaker call an electrician.

Okay. This is a new pump, I'm not likely to mess with the guarantee or
anything if I do this?

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

In the event that the pump is toast, Terry is just saving you time in
replacing the switch on a bad pump



Now that you mention it. I just remembered that the pool guy fixed
the same problem a month or two ago. We replaced the pump this spring,
then it went out again and we traded out the the new pump with another
new one. Then he realized that the the black wire had come loose. He
tightened it back up by taking off a little more insulation and crimping
putting the connector (what I called the spade)and then it happened
again.
I am sorry not to tell you guys this earlier, but I forgot entirely
about it until you mentioned. He kept the same switch and just rewired
the black wire to the switch. The switch itself is probably about 6
years old.
This change the calculus any? Could it be the new pump is pulling
too many amps or something? Again, I am sorry, but I completely forgot
about this.

Kurt


"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
..
.
In article ,
Terry wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:56:35 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

With the power off, take the switch loose and wire nut the two wires
together that were going to the switch. If the pump works then
replace the switch. If it trips the breaker call an electrician.

Okay. This is a new pump, I'm not likely to mess with the guarantee or
anything if I do this?

If it were pulling to much for the switch, the switch would fail. It does
pull a pretty substantial amount of current, but the real problem is the
cheesy spade terminals. If you have a choice, use ring terminals, and solder
them


"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

In the event that the pump is toast, Terry is just saving you time in
replacing the switch on a bad pump



Now that you mention it. I just remembered that the pool guy fixed
the same problem a month or two ago. We replaced the pump this spring,
then it went out again and we traded out the the new pump with another
new one. Then he realized that the the black wire had come loose. He
tightened it back up by taking off a little more insulation and crimping
putting the connector (what I called the spade)and then it happened
again.
I am sorry not to tell you guys this earlier, but I forgot entirely
about it until you mentioned. He kept the same switch and just rewired
the black wire to the switch. The switch itself is probably about 6
years old.
This change the calculus any? Could it be the new pump is pulling
too many amps or something? Again, I am sorry, but I completely forgot
about this.

Kurt


"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
..
.
In article ,
Terry wrote:

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:56:35 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was
no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

With the power off, take the switch loose and wire nut the two wires
together that were going to the switch. If the pump works then
replace the switch. If it trips the breaker call an electrician.

Okay. This is a new pump, I'm not likely to mess with the guarantee or
anything if I do this?

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

If it were pulling to much for the switch, the switch would fail. It does
pull a pretty substantial amount of current, but the real problem is the
cheesy spade terminals. If you have a choice, use ring terminals, and solder
them


Okay. Thanks

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 23:38:47 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

In the event that the pump is toast, Terry is just saving you time in
replacing the switch on a bad pump



Now that you mention it. I just remembered that the pool guy fixed
the same problem a month or two ago. We replaced the pump this spring,
then it went out again and we traded out the the new pump with another
new one. Then he realized that the the black wire had come loose. He
tightened it back up by taking off a little more insulation and crimping
putting the connector (what I called the spade)and then it happened
again.
I am sorry not to tell you guys this earlier, but I forgot entirely
about it until you mentioned. He kept the same switch and just rewired
the black wire to the switch. The switch itself is probably about 6
years old.
This change the calculus any? Could it be the new pump is pulling
too many amps or something? Again, I am sorry, but I completely forgot
about this.

Kurt

How far is the pump from the panel? The wire might be getting warm
enough to cause problems. The lugs (spades) might be the weakest
link.

In article ,
Terry wrote:


Kurt

How far is the pump from the panel? The wire might be getting warm
enough to cause problems. The lugs (spades) might be the weakest
link.

Panel as in the box that has the switch? 2-3 feet or so. Of course the
space between the two is completely open. From the electrical panel in
the breakerbox, clear on the other side of the house.

In article

,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

If it were pulling to much for the switch, the switch would fail. It does
pull a pretty substantial amount of current, but the real problem is the
cheesy spade terminals. If you have a choice, use ring terminals, and
solder
them


Okay. Thanks

Or don't solder them, if you're in this other camp over here, with the
people that make wire harnesses (among other things) for a living.

A little ironic maybe that "solderless" crimp terminals were designed to
obviate the need to solder, and people who don't or won't crimp such a
connection *properly* advocate solder as a "backup," which by making the
connection brittle makes it less reliable.

On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:53:31 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Terry wrote:


Kurt

How far is the pump from the panel? The wire might be getting warm
enough to cause problems. The lugs (spades) might be the weakest
link.

Panel as in the box that has the switch? 2-3 feet or so. Of course the
space between the two is completely open. From the electrical panel in
the breakerbox, clear on the other side of the house.

I was talking about the electrical panel. If it is over 100 ft then
the electrician should have used a larger size wire or wired the pump
for 240V.

The voltage drop could cause the pump to fail.

The smoke at the switch makes me suspect the lug or maybe the switch
first, but if the pump does fail again it might be due to the wire
size.

In article ,
Terry wrote:


The smoke at the switch makes me suspect the lug or maybe the switch
first, but if the pump does fail again it might be due to the wire
size.

I am also wondering if this was the real culprit and the pump may
still have been good. We got about 9 years out of the pump we just
replaced and the current one is just the third in 20 years, so I would
doubt there are major problems with the wiring to the pump.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article

,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:

If it were pulling to much for the switch, the switch would fail. It
does
pull a pretty substantial amount of current, but the real problem is
the
cheesy spade terminals. If you have a choice, use ring terminals, and
solder
them


Okay. Thanks

Or don't solder them, if you're in this other camp over here, with the
people that make wire harnesses (among other things) for a living.

A little ironic maybe that "solderless" crimp terminals were designed to
obviate the need to solder, and people who don't or won't crimp such a
connection *properly* advocate solder as a "backup," which by making the
connection brittle makes it less reliable.

Yes, if done correctly the crimp terminals are fine. I work in a large
plant and have installed crimp terminals on everything from a circuit having
4 milliamps at 24 volts on it to over 100 amps with 480 volts on it. No
problems on hard telling how many thousand connectors are in the plant on
the ones installed correctly.

According to Jeff Wisnia :
Kurt Ullman wrote:
So, I open up the box following my wife telling me the motor isn't
working and that there was a zap sound. I find a rather large black,
sooty spot next to the on-off switch for the motor and the black wire
burnt and the spade thing that the black wire was attached to still
screwed into the switch, although as I mentioned the wire itself was no
longer attached.
Is this just a matter of switching out the switch or something
worse that I should maybe call in repair people for?? I can do the
latter, but that about exhausts what I am comfortable doing with
electricity.

It may just be that whoever attached what you call "that spade thing" to
the black wire didn't make a solid crimp and the joint developed high
resistance over time, heated up, arced enough to melt the metal and failed.

Try shutting off the breaker feeding power to the switch and connect the
black wire directly under the switch's terminal screw by bending a half
loop on the wire.

Clean the wire and the switch terminal and screw so they are bright and
shiny before attaching the wire to the switch, and tighten that screw
firmly. (Check the other switch screw for tightness while you're at it.)

Turn the breaker back on and see how things go. Report back with results.

Couple of random thoughts:

1) Are you using a regular household electrical switch to control
the pump?

2) Is this switch outdoors? How dampproofed is it?

3) is the crimp-on connector on solid or stranded wire?

Generally speaking, ordinary household switches shouldn't be used
to switch motors (= 1/4HP say) on and off routinely. As a power
interrupt fine (mine has an ordinary switch for that purpose, but
uses a timer with HP rating to control the pump cycle), but not for
controlling routinely.

Motors, particularly pumps and compressors are hard starts, and pull
a lot of amps momentarily. This erodes switch contacts, makes poor
connections, and can cause the switch contacts and/or terminals to
overheat.

If the switch shows any signs of burning, I'd recommend replacing
it, even if it seems okay.

If replacing, go to a proper electrical supply and ask for a
switch with a "HP rating" at least as big as the pump HP rating.

[I built a 1/2HP stationary belt sander. I'm using a toggle
switch with a 1.5 HP motor rating for on/off switching.]

Failing that, ask for a "spec-grade" switch (eg: Hubbell). It'll
cost considerably more than a cheap HD bulk pack switch, but should
still be $10.

2) Moisture can accentuate poor connections/accelerate contact
degrade. Make sure the box is sealed reasonably well - eg: use
an outdoor box (plastic or cast aluminum) with gasket seals - seal
where the cable enters the box.

3) Crimp connectors suck on solid wire. Pigtail it to a chunk
of stranded, or, fasten the wire directly under the screw without
a crimp.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

Turn the breaker back on and see how things go. Report back with results.

Couple of random thoughts:

1) Are you using a regular household electrical switch to control
the pump?

"Heavy duty" toggle switch


2) Is this switch outdoors? How dampproofed is it?

I think that may be the problem. As I was putting the new in, I
noticed that the rubber "boot" on the outside had a hole in it. I am
going to look around for another one. Maybe some silicon or similar on
the switch?


3) is the crimp-on connector on solid or stranded wire?
Stranded.



If the switch shows any signs of burning, I'd recommend replacing
it, even if it seems okay.

I did


If replacing, go to a proper electrical supply and ask for a
switch with a "HP rating" at least as big as the pump HP rating.
I got it at Ace, but if this was goes South, I'll try that the
next time. I got this message after doing all the work. ALso, the switch
I got is pretty the same one and the what I took out when the pool
people replaced the switch about 5 years ago.

2) Moisture can accentuate poor connections/accelerate contact
degrade. Make sure the box is sealed reasonably well - eg: use
an outdoor box (plastic or cast aluminum) with gasket seals - seal
where the cable enters the box.
Already there. The g g askets look to be intact. No problems with
the switch for the light directly below the ones with the prooblem,
another reason I am leaning toward a leak at the "boot" as being the
troublemaker.




3) Crimp connectors suck on solid wire. Pigtail it to a chunk
of stranded, or, fasten the wire directly under the screw without
a crimp.
This is stranded already.


Thanks for the help.

K

According to Kurt Ullman :
In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

If replacing, go to a proper electrical supply and ask for a
switch with a "HP rating" at least as big as the pump HP rating.

I got it at Ace, but if this was goes South, I'll try that the
next time. I got this message after doing all the work. ALso, the switch
I got is pretty the same one and the what I took out when the pool
people replaced the switch about 5 years ago.

On the original and/or replacement, examine the switch very carefully.

It may have voltage/amperage and voltage/HP ratings listed on it.
The "better" quality switches you should be using often have them
stamped on the switch or a label.

I've "re-purposed" some industrial heavy duty relays/breakers/switches my
dad tried to throw out out many years ago, and they all had HP ratings
listed on them -

The radio control switch (good only to 600W incandescent ;-) powers my 1HP
dust collector thru a relay that's rated for 15HP motors on 600V ;-)

Being a Canadian, I don't know Ace hardware, but if they cater to farmers
& their requirements as I suspect, it may well be the proper switch. If from
the automotive section, probably not ;-)

--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

According to Kurt Ullman :
In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

If replacing, go to a proper electrical supply and ask for a
switch with a "HP rating" at least as big as the pump HP rating.

I got it at Ace, but if this was goes South, I'll try that the
next time. I got this message after doing all the work. ALso, the switch
I got is pretty the same one and the what I took out when the pool
people replaced the switch about 5 years ago.

On the original and/or replacement, examine the switch very carefully.

It may have voltage/amperage and voltage/HP ratings listed on it.
The "better" quality switches you should be using often have them
stamped on the switch or a label.

It was 10 amp, 120 or 110 volts (can't remember right off). There
was also a 20 amp side, but since the rating on the motor was less than
that, I figured I was probably okay.



Being a Canadian, I don't know Ace hardware, but if they cater to farmers
& their requirements as I suspect, it may well be the proper switch. If from
the automotive section, probably not ;-)

Ace is a smaller, neighborhood chain. As opposed to the big boxes
like Home Depot and Lowes.

According to Kurt Ullman :
In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

It may have voltage/amperage and voltage/HP ratings listed on it.
The "better" quality switches you should be using often have them
stamped on the switch or a label.

It was 10 amp, 120 or 110 volts (can't remember right off). There
was also a 20 amp side, but since the rating on the motor was less than
that, I figured I was probably okay.

Sounds perhaps more like a generic utility ("hobby project") switch, not
HP rated. If your pump is 1/2HP or larger, I suspect you're outside of
its comfort zone :-(

If the switch has two poles, run them in parallel. May improve lifespan
somewhat.

Being a Canadian, I don't know Ace hardware, but if they cater to farmers
& their requirements as I suspect, it may well be the proper switch. If from
the automotive section, probably not ;-)

Ace is a smaller, neighborhood chain. As opposed to the big boxes
like Home Depot and Lowes.

H'm. I thought it was going to be similar to our Home Hardware chain,
which has quite a bit of light industrial/farm focus in semi-rural and
rural areas. Their catalog contains, for example, chick incubators and
can be ordered through any of their outlets (they have a _lot_), whether
stocked or not.

That plus a feed & seed and Farm equipment dealer is just all a farmer
here needs. (The more rural Home Hardware stores stock building materials
too.)

Ace's web page makes it look like its doesn't seriously cover farm stuff.
But that may just be the web pages.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.