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Default Roofing Question - Clarification

On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
There's been a lot said here about deposits.

Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work, special
orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both
parties of the contract.

I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental metal
in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon
installation.

I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial
market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked around
by so many homeowners that I was sick of it.

Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said ANYTHING
about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and tell
them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was
just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who
grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about everything
else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about how
bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it.
"Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing.

Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when the
job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then it
may take a while for the girl to cut the check.

So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that
sometimes ..................
The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their
licensing and insurance, and check things out.

As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many horror
stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to eat.
You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If the
contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as used.
But NOOOOO, they want the deposit.

Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is different
with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is business,
and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get.


Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you
don't think about it.

A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now
you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then
you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went
into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between
commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh.

R

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On Jul 7, 2:17 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
"Nancy Young" wrote

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote


"Nancy Young" wrote
I knew this wouldn't pertain to you... as renters never have to hire a
contractor!


I don't know why this is annoying you but ... no, all the work
I've had done on my house, no deposits, except for ordering the
kitchen cabinets. I didn't buy them from the contractor.


Sounds like a deposit to me...


No, I bought them because I knew what I wanted, and the layout.
I only started looking for a contractor after the cabinets were sitting
in my garage.


Ooops, I didn't finish. The contractor brought all the sheetrock,
wood trim, electrical stuff, etc etc that was needed for the job.
No payment for anything up front.

nancy






I had my roof repaired last year. This year I got a new roof. Last
year I had the valley repaired and did not pay anything up front. The
company doing the job was a very large company. This year we decided
it was time to replace the old tile roof with shingles before the
price got too high for shingles. We paid one third down up front.
The company was a small company with a good reputation. When the job
was finished we paid the balance. This is customary here (FL). I
don't know of any company that would start work without a down
payment.

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"RicodJour" wrote

On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:


If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local
suppliers
don't trust the person enough to extend credit, there is probably a
reason. I have never had to front anyone money for supplies.


Let me see if I understand you. You want the contractor to front you
money (that's what he's doing when he buys materials for your job
before you've paid for them), but you don't want to front money to the
contractor. Does that sound right to you?


I don't think they put any money out. That's the point.
Contractors who don't pay their bills have to pay cash, they
have to put money out. Needing money for supplies is a red flag.

You seem to be assuming that a contractor doesn't have a line of
credit if he doesn't extend the line of credit to you.


Frankly, I've never had to assume anything. The contractor
has always procured the products I ask for and when the job is
done, I pay them. I would anticipate paying as the job went along,
but if someone is a roofer and they can't even swing the cost for
shingles and plywood, I would not be comfortable handing them the
few hundred dollars.

nancy


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"SteveB" wrote

Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of
business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and
special order goods.


I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially,
earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about
standard construction materials.

nancy


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"Nancy Young" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote

Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of
business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and
special order goods.


I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially,
earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about
standard construction materials.

nancy


It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here.
Thanks.

Steve




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On Jul 7, 7:16 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote

On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local
suppliers
don't trust the person enough to extend credit, there is probably a
reason. I have never had to front anyone money for supplies.


Let me see if I understand you. You want the contractor to front you
money (that's what he's doing when he buys materials for your job
before you've paid for them), but you don't want to front money to the
contractor. Does that sound right to you?


I don't think they put any money out. That's the point.
Contractors who don't pay their bills have to pay cash, they
have to put money out. Needing money for supplies is a red flag.


The number of assumptions in those four sentences is astounding. You
have not let us know how you establish that the contractor "needs" a
deposit as opposed to "wants" a deposit. You have assumed that there
is only one way for a contractor to do business - by using supplier
credit. What if the contractor only has an account at a place that
has higher prices? Who do you think ends up paying for that? Hint -
it's not the contractor.

Supply houses frequently give substantial discounts to contractors for
paying at the time of ordering and in cash. Supplier credit costs the
supplier. They're extending a short term loan to the contractor. It
costs the supplier money and it increases the risk for them. Nothing
is life is free - that cost and risk is added to the price of the
materials. They reward people for not increasing the cost and risk by
giving discounts. The same way you seek a good buy, a contractor
seeks a good buy.

You said you don't "think" they put money out. You seem to have
confused cash, credit and liability. I would imagine that you have a
mortgage on your house like most people. Even though you are not
paying all of that money at once, you are liable for paying all of the
loaned money back plus interest. As soon as a contractor places an
order, they are liable for payment of the dollar amount of that
order. If you ignore your mortgage payment, or the contractor doesn't
pay the supplier, the charge and liability are still there. While
cash has not been laid out, there's still a nice fat red mark in the
debit column. That's a liability. The contractor's debt goes in the
debit column of the accountant's books. That debit gets canceled out
when you make payment. Until that time the contractor is loaning you
money.

You seem to be assuming that a contractor doesn't have a line of
credit if he doesn't extend the line of credit to you.


Frankly, I've never had to assume anything. The contractor
has always procured the products I ask for and when the job is
done, I pay them. I would anticipate paying as the job went along,
but if someone is a roofer and they can't even swing the cost for
shingles and plywood, I would not be comfortable handing them the
few hundred dollars.


I do not like the assumptions that the OP's roofer made, and said so.
We are not talking about that specific situation - we're now talking
in generalities. Saying "can't even swing the cost of" IS assuming.

I need to make a profit. That's why I am in business - to make a
profit. That doesn't mean I will automatically make a profit. I
don't need money to cover materials. That doesn't mean I won't charge
you up front for the materials.

When you say you "would anticipate paying as the job went along", what
do you think that means? When do you think the job starts? The
project starts as soon as the contract is signed and both parties have
agreed to the scope and price of the work, both are engaged in a
_construction_ project. Not a banking endeavor. I can afford to
cover materials. I won't cover materials. Why should I? I am not a
bank. I am not in the business of providing no cost loans. If you'd
like a loan to help _you_ swing the cost of the project, that's fine,
knock yourself out and talk to you local banker.

There are plenty of contractors who operate differently, and that's
fine as that is their business. However I do object to nonsense
exclamations like NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT as that is misleading
and will get nervous homeowners to throw out good contractors along
with the bad.

R

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On Jul 7, 8:32 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
"Nancy Young" wrote in message
"SteveB" wrote


Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of
business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and
special order goods.


I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially,
earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about
standard construction materials.



It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here.
Thanks.


You mean as opposed to people that say one thing in one post and
contradict themselves in another? I'm with you on that one.

Let's see what the people that write the rules have to say on the
matter. We already looked at your home state of Nevada. Let's pick a
few biggies.

California information for homeowners
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hicnotice.pdf says this:
Are you required to pay a down payment?
If you are, the down payment should never be more than 10% of the
contract price or
$1,000, whichever is less.
Is there a schedule of payments?
If there is a schedule of payments, you should pay only as work is
completed and not
before. There are some exceptions - contact the CSLB to find out what
they are.

That makes sense.

Nassau County New York information for homeowners (1.3 million
residents)
http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...checklist.html
says this:
Is the Payment Schedule Fair? Avoid a firm that wants a large down
payment. A fair down payment would be under 15%. Make payments as each
phase of the work is completed. Hold back final payment until all
problems have been corrected. Make sure the contract specifies a
payment schedule.

That makes sense.

Massachusetts Sample Home Improvement Contract
http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/sampcont.pdf says this:
Payments will be made according to the following SCHEDULE:
$________ upon signing contract (*Not to exceed 1/3 of the total
contract price OR the cost of
special order items, whichever is greater*).
$________ by __/__/____ or upon completion of

That makes sense, but personally, I think 1/3 of the total contract is
pretty steep for a down payment.

Maybe you don't like government, even when they're trying to protect a
homeowner. Fine. Let's see what the household names in home
improvement have to say.

Bob Vila
http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library...Pro-A1660.html
says this:
· Try to limit your down payment. Some state laws limit the amount of
money a contractor can request as a down payment. Contact your state
or local consumer agency to find out what the law is in your area.

That makes sense.

Holmes on Homes
http://www.holmesonhomes.com/tips_an...ails.php?id=29 says
this:
One of the biggest complaints I hear from home owners who've been
taken by their contractor is that they paid too much money upfront.
Most contracts that home owners sign are based on time. THIS IS
TOTALLY INCORRECT. You need to demand a contract and payment plan
based on milestones, not set time periods. A good payment plan starts
with the down payment. This should be no more than 15% up to $2,500
maximum. Never pay a contractor more than $2,500 before they've even
stepped foot in your house.

That makes sense.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is your flip flopping and
spouting off about NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT.

R

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wrote in message
...
giving a down payment is the way to get ripped off. if a company
isnt big enough to wait till the jobs done before collecting
payment.send them on their way. you wouldnt believe the number of
contractors that never return after getting a down payment. he's
guessing on the wood thickness..lucas


It is also important to check out the contractors. I had a roofing job done
for $60,000 with no deposit required.

I had a siding job done for $42,000 and we paid 1/3 at the start, 1/3 after
50% complete, 1/3 at final. The company that did the job has been in
business for 25 years and they did show up the day they said they would.
Another siding contractor did not require any deposit but they were $20,000
higher on the bid.


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Default Roofing Question - Clarification

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 15:58:35 -0600, "SteveB"
wrote:


"RicodJour" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
There's been a lot said here about deposits.

Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work,
special
orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both
parties of the contract.

I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental
metal
in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon
installation.

I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial
market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked
around
by so many homeowners that I was sick of it.

Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said
ANYTHING
about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and
tell
them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was
just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who
grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about
everything
else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about
how
bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it.
"Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing.

Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when
the
job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then
it
may take a while for the girl to cut the check.

So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that
sometimes ..................
The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their
licensing and insurance, and check things out.

As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many horror
stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to
eat.
You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If
the
contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as
used.
But NOOOOO, they want the deposit.

Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is
different
with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is business,
and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get.


Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you
don't think about it.

A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now
you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then
you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went
into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between
commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh.

R


At least I am honest enough to tell the story. Things change in people's
lives (not yours apparently) and from one time to another, they do things
differently.

As for now, I don't USUALLY give deposits, save for custom work or special
orders. And I damn sure wouldn't give a deposit to a roofer under any
circumstances.

Steve

If I do your roof, I don't need a deposit from you.

I do however, expect you to sign all the papers before I deliver
product to your property so that I have a lien on your home. If you
hesitate to pay on completion, I kick your sorry ass out, auction off
your home and take my cut and give you what is left after expenses.



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RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 7, 8:32 pm, "SteveB" wrote:

"Nancy Young" wrote in message

"SteveB" wrote


Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part of
business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and
special order goods.


I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially,
earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about
standard construction materials.



It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here.
Thanks.



You mean as opposed to people that say one thing in one post and
contradict themselves in another? I'm with you on that one.

Let's see what the people that write the rules have to say on the
matter. We already looked at your home state of Nevada. Let's pick a
few biggies.

California information for homeowners
http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hicnotice.pdf says this:
Are you required to pay a down payment?
If you are, the down payment should never be more than 10% of the
contract price or
$1,000, whichever is less.
Is there a schedule of payments?
If there is a schedule of payments, you should pay only as work is
completed and not
before. There are some exceptions - contact the CSLB to find out what
they are.

That makes sense.

Nassau County New York information for homeowners (1.3 million
residents)
http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...checklist.html
says this:
Is the Payment Schedule Fair? Avoid a firm that wants a large down
payment. A fair down payment would be under 15%. Make payments as each
phase of the work is completed. Hold back final payment until all
problems have been corrected. Make sure the contract specifies a
payment schedule.

That makes sense.

Massachusetts Sample Home Improvement Contract
http://www.mass.gov/Eoca/docs/sampcont.pdf says this:
Payments will be made according to the following SCHEDULE:
$________ upon signing contract (*Not to exceed 1/3 of the total
contract price OR the cost of
special order items, whichever is greater*).
$________ by __/__/____ or upon completion of

That makes sense, but personally, I think 1/3 of the total contract is
pretty steep for a down payment.

Maybe you don't like government, even when they're trying to protect a
homeowner. Fine. Let's see what the household names in home
improvement have to say.

Bob Vila
http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library...Pro-A1660.html
says this:
· Try to limit your down payment. Some state laws limit the amount of
money a contractor can request as a down payment. Contact your state
or local consumer agency to find out what the law is in your area.

That makes sense.

Holmes on Homes
http://www.holmesonhomes.com/tips_an...ails.php?id=29 says
this:
One of the biggest complaints I hear from home owners who've been
taken by their contractor is that they paid too much money upfront.
Most contracts that home owners sign are based on time. THIS IS
TOTALLY INCORRECT. You need to demand a contract and payment plan
based on milestones, not set time periods. A good payment plan starts
with the down payment. This should be no more than 15% up to $2,500
maximum. Never pay a contractor more than $2,500 before they've even
stepped foot in your house.

That makes sense.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is your flip flopping and
spouting off about NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT.

R


In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes
both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we
all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are.
(Actually, they ARE disreputable.)

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX


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On Jul 8, 2:08 am, Robert Allison wrote:

In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes
both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we
all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are.
(Actually, they ARE disreputable.)


That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.

The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.

R

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RicodJour wrote:
....
That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.

The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.


So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...

--
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On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

...

That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.


The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.


So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...


People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. How many contractors do you know that have
their own NASCAR team? They're the 900 pound gorilla, so people who
don't know any better think they've gotta be good and don't know the
alternatives.

They operate like a contractor, they should be held to the same rules
and regulations. It's similar to saying that someone is not in the
legislative branch so they don't have to comply with legislative
directives, and then that they're not in the executive branch when
they don't want to comply with executive directives. It's just
stupid.

R

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RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

...

That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.
The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.

So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...


People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...


Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or
enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate
legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing
regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and
raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise,
your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to
whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)

--


--


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On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:


...


That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.
The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.
So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...


People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...


Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or
enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate
legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing
regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and
raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise,
your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to
whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)


Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend
to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box
installer horror stories.

Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have
enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken.

R


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RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
...
That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.
The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.
So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...
People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...

Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or
enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate
legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing
regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and
raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise,
your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to
whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)


Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend
to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box
installer horror stories.

Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have
enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken.


Amen to both!

But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as
installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably
naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client,
either, until they have at least had an eduction.

As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US
consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting
the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is
currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to
such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market,
however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc.,
decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for
most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out
are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and
butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the
lower-volume products.

--
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"Robert Allison" wrote

In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes both require
FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we all know how
disreputable and in need of cash they are. (Actually, they ARE
disreputable.)

--
Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX


And we all know what good installers they use, and how easy it is to get
satisfaction if there is a problem.

Steve


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"dpb" wrote in message
People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...


Then they must be doing something right for their business model.


They spend a lot of money advertising showing happy people. They have the
majority of people convinced they have the lowest prices to the point that
they don't shop around any more. Given the size of the store, the same ill
informed consumer thinks the big box stores have every possible piece of
hardware imaginable and helpful "associates" will help them find what they
need.

I've been to some plumbing and electrical supply houses that seem to have
the surliest of clerks that don't want to be bothered with the consumer that
has no clue what they want and they just re-enforce why going to Home Depot
is better. .


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dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
...

That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers.
Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.
The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.

So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise
threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...

People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...

Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or
enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate
legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing
regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and
raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise,
your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to
whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)



Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend
to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box
installer horror stories.

Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have
enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken.



Amen to both!

But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as
installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably
naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client,
either, until they have at least had an eduction.


I think that a lot of the customers for HD and Lowes
installation are people that use credit for everything. A lot
of these people could never afford to dish out the money for a
project, so they use the plastic and not only pay in advance,
but with interest alot more than they would if they paid cash.

As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US
consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting
the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is
currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to
such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market,
however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc.,
decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for
most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out
are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and
butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the
lower-volume products.

--


We small, quality contractors will always be around, because
there are a lot of quality minded consumers still around. I
cannot do all the work that I am asked to do, yet I never
advertise, nor am I in the yellow pages. I just do good work.
I am constantly amazed when a person calls out of the blue and
we go over who knew who and who recommended me. (And I always
get a deposit up front, or at the least, when the materials
are delivered. But I never start work without a little money
in my pocket.)

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX


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"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jul 7, 7:16 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
"RicodJour" wrote

On Jul 7, 1:26 pm, "Nancy Young" wrote:
If I've read it once, I've read it a million times. If the local
suppliers

(snip)
There are plenty of contractors who operate differently, and that's
fine as that is their business. However I do object to nonsense
exclamations like NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT as that is misleading
and will get nervous homeowners to throw out good contractors along
with the bad.

Shrug. I've had it go both ways, fixing up this place. The furnace company
wanted half up front, the painters wanted a token 'good faith' deposit, and
the roofer looked at me like I was an idiot for asking if he wanted anything
up front. So did the insulation guy. Plumbers and such got paid at the end,
and the flooring guy (who was after-supper moonlighting on himself, from his
one-man-company's day contract with the borg) got paid at the end, in cash.
(No, I didn't ask for a receipt.)

On small work (under 5-7 K), if I know the guy has an actual local business
location, and is in the real phone book, I'll risk paying front money. If
the guy works out of his house in a plain truck, him asking for front money
starts to set off my BS detector. Now if I ever do anything big where I have
to get the bank's help to pay for it, I'll let them make the call. I do
understand the concepts of draw payments at defined progress points- doing
the punch lists to meet the bank guy's checklist was one of my duties as a
kid. (Is the house 'dried in'? Are all the windows and doors set and
lockable? Is the permit board current and legible, with the proper
inspection stamps for each trade? That sort of thing.)


aem sends....


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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. ..

"dpb" wrote in message
People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...


Then they must be doing something right for their business model.


They spend a lot of money advertising showing happy people. They have the
majority of people convinced they have the lowest prices to the point that
they don't shop around any more. Given the size of the store, the same
ill informed consumer thinks the big box stores have every possible piece
of hardware imaginable and helpful "associates" will help them find what
they need.

I've been to some plumbing and electrical supply houses that seem to have
the surliest of clerks that don't want to be bothered with the consumer
that has no clue what they want and they just re-enforce why going to Home
Depot is better. .

Reading this thread, not just your response Ed, but reading it got me
thinking about some of the replies.

I know a lot of people who don't hesitate to spend top dollar for
contracting work, myself included, but oftentimes we find a few things that
immediately turn us off.

1) The contractor has a great reputation and obvious talent, but the
personality of a pit bull and I personally will suffer subquality work from
someone less qualified as long as they have a decent customer face. A lot
of people that I know feel the same way. When we can't find someone
reasonably human, we then decide to give it a go ourselves.

2) To comment on what you said Ed, I know 3 electrical supply houses in my
area (50 mile radius) who will deal with someone who is NOT a contractor and
doesn't have a line of credit with them already established. So what that
means is that I have to go to Lowe's or Ace if I want to do work myself -
it's not that I don't want to deal with them or that they're unhappy people,
they simply refuse my business. Or, when they do interact with walk-ins the
help is so unfamiliar in dealing with single customers that their skills
immediately turn us off. Seattle Lighting is one store that I simply won't
do business with - simply because of the poor quality of their floor help.
Yet I know lots of contractors who work with them all the time.

3) For many people working with contractors isn't a frequent occurance. So
oftentimes we simply don't have any familiarity with their business, costs,
or schedules. I sincerely hope that I will have to deal with a contractor
at the most once a year. You aren't going to get any sort of familiarity
with them at that level of frequency - couple that with what I outlined in 1
above and you can see why people balk at using them or make what a
contractor considers an unreasonable demand.


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Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clueless Mary
By visual inspection, roofer diagnoses buckling in some of the plywood
sheathing and takes a down payment to buy supplies, including the
plywood sheathing.

How does roofer know the thickness of the sheathing without
ripping-off the shingles? Seems to me that he'll need to use the
same thickness to match the existing sheathing that has not buckled.
Thanks.
Partly due to code and partly due to the product that is sold for that purpose. Ask roofer to replace any bad wood. It would be highly unusual for none to be found. And that is something you would want done.
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krw krw is offline
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In article hkcki.475$Y_3.470@trnddc04,
says...
dpb wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:51 am, dpb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:

On Jul 8, 9:27 am, dpb wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
...

That's something that's always ****ed me off. The big box stores do
an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some
stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers.
Well,
when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that
makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them
a general contractor.
The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the
maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.

So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in
the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise
threads)
they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...

People would always use them. They know the name, they have low
prices and high exposure. ...

Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or
enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate
legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing
regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and
raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise,
your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to
whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)


Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend
to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box
installer horror stories.

Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have
enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken.



Amen to both!

But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as
installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably
naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client,
either, until they have at least had an eduction.


I think that a lot of the customers for HD and Lowes
installation are people that use credit for everything. A lot
of these people could never afford to dish out the money for a
project, so they use the plastic and not only pay in advance,
but with interest alot more than they would if they paid cash.


I use HD's credit to buy now and use their money for a year, free.
Works out quite well (have $4K worth of carpeting on credit now).
I've done it with a half a dozen appliance and furniture stores too.
I even bought my wife a laptop and used their money. I like the free
use of money. ;-)

As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US
consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting
the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is
currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to
such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market,
however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc.,
decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for
most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out
are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and
butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the
lower-volume products.

--


We small, quality contractors will always be around, because
there are a lot of quality minded consumers still around. I
cannot do all the work that I am asked to do, yet I never
advertise, nor am I in the yellow pages. I just do good work.
I am constantly amazed when a person calls out of the blue and
we go over who knew who and who recommended me. (And I always
get a deposit up front, or at the least, when the materials
are delivered. But I never start work without a little money
in my pocket.)


Good for you! I like to hear success stories. OTOH, it's difficult
to get someone, such as yourself, to give us the time of day here.
When they do honor us by agreeing to give an estimate they usually
don't show and *NEVER* call. Tradesmen generally *suck* around here.
I do my own work, when possible.

--
Keith
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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Just Joshin" wrote


Agreed that your reply makes sense. The other concern I have, is how
he/she NEEDS the down payment to buy supplies. Most supply houses
around here have credit available. IMHO, not a good sign.

tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com


One of the top ten stupid things people do in life is pay in advance

for
repairs. If the person is licensed, experienced, and in business long
enough, they will have the money or credit to buy the materials and get

paid
when the job is done.

NEVER PAY UP FRONT.

Steve



The normal is to pay a deposit.

I guess you like doing **** for nothing?



Huh? What I prefer is a company that has enough operating capital to be
able to swing it so that in the three days from the time they start the

job
until they end it, they don't go out of business because they can't afford
to buy supplies enough for the job.



There's a difference between operating capital and a deposit. Please learn
the difference.





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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote

You're not in business I see.

Almost everybody gets a deposit these days!!!!

Only the derelicts and fugitives. Reputable contractors don't.



Bull****!!!


And I can see that you've NEVER been in business. Most companies and
businesses will NOT pay in advance under any circumstances. They will

make
progress payments as stages of the work are completed, but they will
NEVER
let the workman get ahead of them.



We're talking about a residential project here, MORON.

I see you've never worked residential jobs!


Steve, a former steel erection contractor, State of Nevada for nine

years


Oh my, a whole 9 years..... LOL

Come back when you've learnt how business is run in today's world.


I sold out for a handsome profit for nine years work, and went back

overseas
for a few contracts where all I had to do was show up.

I was reluctant to do residential jobs because my commercial customer base
kept me too busy for that. It also payed more.

Steve



That still doesn't qualify your comments.



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"Nancy Young" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote

"Nancy Young" wrote


kjpro @ usenet.com wrote

"SteveB" wrote

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote

Never paid a deposit?

Only on pop bottles and beer kegs.

I knew this wouldn't pertain to you... as renters never have to hire

a
contractor!

I don't know why this is annoying you but ... no, all the work
I've had done on my house, no deposits, except for ordering the
kitchen cabinets. I didn't buy them from the contractor.


Sounds like a deposit to me...


No, I bought them because I knew what I wanted, and the layout.
I only started looking for a contractor after the cabinets were sitting
in my garage.

nancy



You put money down in order to get the cabinets.

That *is* a deposit!!!!



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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Dottie" wrote


I had my roof repaired last year. This year I got a new roof. Last
year I had the valley repaired and did not pay anything up front. The
company doing the job was a very large company. This year we decided
it was time to replace the old tile roof with shingles before the
price got too high for shingles. We paid one third down up front.
The company was a small company with a good reputation. When the job
was finished we paid the balance. This is customary here (FL). I
don't know of any company that would start work without a down
payment.


What about the big one that did the first repair?

Steve



Minor repair, dip****!!!


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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote in message
...
How does roofer know the thickness of the sheathing without
ripping-off the shingles? Seems to me that he'll need to use the
same thickness to match the existing sheathing that has not buckled.

Probably from the experience of working on hundreds of roofs, and that

there
is only one thickness used in your area. Probably half inch. And

sometimes
a piece is visible on the outside that can be seen, so he doesn't need

to
go
inside. Ask him how he's sure. If you don't think the man knows what

he's
doing, hire someone else.

Roofing isn't rocket science, and if there is a difference in the

sheathing,
it's only going to be 1/8", and that can be shimmed so it is not a
visible
transition.

Steve



I see you need to stick with giving advice on another subject.

One thickness per area????? LOL
Only an 1/8 of an inch??????? LOL

What's the difference between 1/2 and 3/4?????

Now go outside and play with your dog little kiddy.




Man, you follow me like a puppy. Most roofers use 1/2" and 5/8". I don't
know of a lot who use 3/4" for roofing.

Steve



Don't mean that it doesn't exist, now does it??


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"RicodJour" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 7, 5:14 pm, "SteveB" wrote:
There's been a lot said here about deposits.

Deposits are usual and customary in today's market for custom work,

special
orders, and other special circumstances agreed upon in advance by both
parties of the contract.

I started out my steel erection contracting business doing ornamental

metal
in my garage. 50% down because it was custom work, and 50% upon
installation.

I did about two years of this before I grew and got into the commercial
market and got my contractor's license. In that time, I was jerked

around
by so many homeowners that I was sick of it.

Once I took off commercially, I changed policies. If anyone said

ANYTHING
about the deposit on custom work, I'd just put a big X on my copy, and

tell
them to call me. If they did call back for the work, I'd say that I was
just too busy and they could call back every three months. Anyone who
grumped about paying a deposit for custom work would grump about

everything
else, too. Usually they called me back with some long tale of woe about

how
bad a job they had gotten at a "bargain" price, and could I come fix it.
"Sure, a truck and two men are $95 per hour." More wailing.

Once I got commercial, the word "deposit" never came up. They pay when

the
job is FINISHED AND INSPECTED. Or they do progress payments. And then

it
may take a while for the girl to cut the check.

So, while I say deposits are bad and unnecessary, I must admit that
sometimes ..................
The main thing is to know your contractor, have recourse, see their
licensing and insurance, and check things out.

As for homeowners paying for stuff up front, I have heard too many

horror
stories. It's like the drunk who asks for a buck to get something to

eat.
You offer to take him and buy him a burger. No, they want the buck. If

the
contractor can't get the materials, YOU buy them and dispense them as

used.
But NOOOOO, they want the deposit.

Many have written here, both the informed and the clueless. It is

different
with different types of businesses, and areas. But business is

business,
and it's just not a smart idea to pay for something you don't get.


Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you
don't think about it.

A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now
you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then
you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went
into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between
commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh.

R



He did mention the "clueless", he was referring to himself!!!!!






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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

As for now, I don't USUALLY give deposits, save for custom work or special
orders. And I damn sure wouldn't give a deposit to a roofer under any
circumstances.



That's his thought for this post. LMAO


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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"RicodJour" wrote

Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you
don't think about it.


That's your trouble, Ric, you know more than your capacity.

Now let me think about this ................

plonk .......................

Do I want to hit the SEND button .................

Wait, wait, I know this .............

Bye, Rick the Dick ....................



Plonking the people that see the real you? LOL


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"SteveB" wrote in message
...

"Nancy Young" wrote in message
...

"SteveB" wrote

Must be normal where kjpro is from, as he finds deposits a vital part

of
business. Deposits are only usual and customary for custom work and
special order goods.


I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially,
earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about
standard construction materials.

nancy


It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here.
Thanks.

Steve



You sure as hell don't fit that category!!!

Just read the post you made on running your business. The REAL truth comes
out.


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