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wire size and 200amp service
I am doing a significant kitchen upgrade and the contractor has
recommended that I upgrade the electrical service to 200amp. I've had 3 electricians out to quote on the work---and received 3 very different opinions and prices. Two have told me it is not necessary to upgrade the main power line in the house from the meter to the load center. The other one says I must. I currently have 150amp service. The meter and the load center are separated by about 50-feet. The wiring from the meter to the load center is 2/0 aluminum. I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. What is up with 2 of these contractors telling me it is OK to upgrade without replacing the existing 2/0 wiring? Is there some sort of grandfather provision in this situation? If the price difference wasn't so much it would be a no-brainer. But at $3,500 vs. $750 it's a lot harder to go with the cadillac solution simple because it is the cadillac solution.... Does anyone have any guidance on the issues and realities of this situation? |
wire size and 200amp service
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wire size and 200amp service
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote:
I currently have 150amp service. The meter and the load center are separated by about 50-feet. The wiring from the meter to the load center is 2/0 aluminum. I work for a major residential electrical This should ease your mind. Unless you are using more stuff than the average 1800 sq ft home owner 150A service is plenty. This page came up with total load of 110A http://hometips.com/articles/sunset_...lusage022.html To understand how the formula works, consider the example of a house with 1,800 square feet (based on outside dimensions) of finished living space and space adaptable for future use. The house has the usual two small-appliance circuits (3,000 watts), a laundry circuit (1,500 watts), a hot water heater (5,500 watts), a clothes dryer (5,600 watts), a dishwasher (1,500 watts), a garbage disposal (600 watts), a range (15,000 watts), and a central air conditioner (5,000 watts). |
wire size and 200amp service
http://hometips.com/articles/sunset_...ng/calculate_e... Thanks this has been helpful... EXISTING... 3,600 sq-ft = 10,800W range 15,000 dishwasher 1,500 fridge 1,500 disposal 600 laundry 1,500 dryer 5,500 water heater 5,600 --------------------------- 40,500W (40,500-10,000)*0.4 = 12,200 + 10,000 = 22,200 (add 2 AC = 32,200W / 240 = 134amp NOW ADD... 2nd refrig 1,500W 2nd disposal 600 2nd oven 1,500 leave some spare capacity for eventually adding a hot tub at & the 8" jointer I want to get for my woodworking shop (208V @ 20A) Looks like upgrading to 200A for the new, added appliances is probably correct. |
wire size and 200amp service
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 19:39:24 -0700, wrote:
http://hometips.com/articles/sunset_...ng/calculate_e... Thanks this has been helpful... EXISTING... 3,600 sq-ft = 10,800W range 15,000 dishwasher 1,500 fridge 1,500 disposal 600 laundry 1,500 dryer 5,500 water heater 5,600 --------------------------- 40,500W (40,500-10,000)*0.4 = 12,200 + 10,000 = 22,200 (add 2 AC = 32,200W / 240 = 134amp NOW ADD... 2nd refrig 1,500W 2nd disposal 600 2nd oven 1,500 leave some spare capacity for eventually adding a hot tub at & the 8" jointer I want to get for my woodworking shop (208V @ 20A) Looks like upgrading to 200A for the new, added appliances is probably correct. You're welcome. |
wire size and 200amp service
In article ,
wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. They are right Does it require aluminum? If his current aluminum wiring doesn't meet the current code and will have to be replaced, should he be considering switching from aluminum at the same time? -- --Tim Smith |
wire size and 200amp service
On Jun 27, 9:59?pm, Terry wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I currently have 150amp service. The meter and the load center are separated by about 50-feet. The wiring from the meter to the load center is 2/0 aluminum. I work for a major residential electrical ahh just for the record that long 50 foot between meter and load center can cause a voltage drop under heavy whole house loads. myself if I were adding a addition then upgrading the whole thing is what i would do, since its a small part of the overall cost and adds resale value in the future |
wire size and 200amp service
In article , Terry wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I am doing a significant kitchen upgrade and the contractor has recommended that I upgrade the electrical service to 200amp. I've had 3 electricians out to quote on the work---and received 3 very different opinions and prices. Two have told me it is not necessary to upgrade the main power line in the house from the meter to the load center. The other one says I must. I agree with the 2 that say it is not necessary, Bzzzzt! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. It absolutely is. 2/0 aluminum is rated at 150A max, per NEC Table 310.15(B)(6). -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
wire size and 200amp service
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wire size and 200amp service
On Jun 28, 7:21 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article . com, wrote: [snip] I currently have 150amp service. The meter and the load center are separated by about 50-feet. The wiring from the meter to the load center is 2/0 aluminum. That is the minimum size rated for 150A. I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. They're right, and not just the latest version, either. What is up with 2 of these contractors telling me it is OK to upgrade without replacing the existing 2/0 wiring? Either they're incompetent, or the wire is actually copper (doubtful). Per National Electrical Code, minimum size feeder for 200A service is 2/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum. [2005 NEC, Table 310.15(B)(6)] Is there some sort of grandfather provision in this situation? Not relevant. Whatever Code provisions may have been in effect when your service was installed do not matter: upgrades must meet the Code that's in effect at the time of the upgrade, not the time of the original installation. If the price difference wasn't so much it would be a no-brainer. But at $3,500 vs. $750 it's a lot harder to go with the cadillac solution simple because it is the cadillac solution.... This isn't a Cadillac vs. Chevrolet situation -- more like Cadillac vs. rusty tricycle. 2/0 aluminum is neither adequate nor legal for a 200A service, pure and simple, and anyone who thinks it is should not be trusted to install a service entrance. The difference in price between 150' feet (50' run * 3 conductors) of 4/0 vs. 2/0 aluminum won't be much more than about a hundred bucks, if that. The difference between the $3500 quoted by the guy who says you need 4/0, and the $750 quoted by the guys who say 2/0 is acceptable, is at least in part the difference between a qualified electrician and a couple of incompetent hacks. Yeah, I couldn't figure out how this huge price difference could be attributed to replacing one 50 ft service run either. If you're uncomfortable with the $3500 price (which does seem a bit stiff to me), then solicit bids from other qualified electricians and compare. Does anyone have any guidance on the issues and realities of this situation? There's no "guidance" involved on the size of the service entrance. The reality is that using 2/0 aluminum for a 200A service is prohibited by the NEC. Period. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
wire size and 200amp service
Tim Smith wrote:
In article , wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. They are right Does it require aluminum? If his current aluminum wiring doesn't meet the current code and will have to be replaced, should he be considering switching from aluminum at the same time? -- --Tim Smith That's certainly an option, but not essential. Aluminum wiring is not an issue for these large gauges, it was only an issue when used in the small gauge (14-10) general wiring in houses. It's mostly a cost and personal preference issue as for service entrance use either is perfectly acceptable. Note that the wire gauge required for a given service size will be larger for aluminum than for copper. |
wire size and 200amp service
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wire size and 200amp service
William Underhill wrote:
Hmm. Disclaimer first - I'm a naval electrical technician, not civilian, so am not intimately familiar with civilian code requirements. Further, I'm Canadian, and if you're not, some of your code requirements may vary. That said, check out this website: http://www.friesen.com/manuals/allow...n%20Free%20Air You actually want table 4 (in conduit/cable) which has even lower amp ratings. Depending on your insulation type and ambient temp, you'd need at least 3/0 to meet the requirements, and 4/0 gives you only a 30-amp safety margin. As I said, I'm not familiar with the details of the NEC, but in the Navy we'd be using the 4/0, since we have to assume that all loads are energized at all times. There may indeed be some kind of 'grandfathering' provision, but I'd rather not create an electrical fire risk. The US-NEC allows 4/0 Al for 200A residential services. In a residence all loads are not energized at all times. The major loads, in particular, cycle on and off. I believe the wire sizes were based on field studies. 4/0 can not be used for 200A non-residential services where major loads may be energized all the time. -- bud-- |
wire size and 200amp service
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wire size and 200amp service
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:31:44 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote: Tim Smith wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. They are right Does it require aluminum? If his current aluminum wiring doesn't meet the current code and will have to be replaced, should he be considering switching from aluminum at the same time? -- --Tim Smith That's certainly an option, but not essential. Aluminum wiring is not an issue for these large gauges, it was only an issue when used in the small gauge (14-10) general wiring in houses. It's mostly a cost and personal preference issue as for service entrance use either is I don't understand "personal preference". It looks good with my eyes? I have stock in a copper company? Are the only personal preference possibilities based on the misunderstanding that aluminum in large gauges is not good, perfectly acceptable. Note that the wire gauge required for a given service size will be larger for aluminum than for copper. |
wire size and 200amp service
wrote in message ups.com... I am doing a significant kitchen upgrade and the contractor has recommended that I upgrade the electrical service to 200amp. I've had 3 electricians out to quote on the work---and received 3 very different opinions and prices. Two have told me it is not necessary to upgrade the main power line in the house from the meter to the load center. The other one says I must. I currently have 150amp service. The meter and the load center are separated by about 50-feet. The wiring from the meter to the load center is 2/0 aluminum. I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. What is up with 2 of these contractors telling me it is OK to upgrade without replacing the existing 2/0 wiring? Is there some sort of grandfather provision in this situation? If the price difference wasn't so much it would be a no-brainer. But at $3,500 vs. $750 it's a lot harder to go with the cadillac solution simple because it is the cadillac solution.... Does anyone have any guidance on the issues and realities of this situation? I think I'd find another electrician if I were you. You need 4/0 Aluminum or 2/0 copper. You choose. 2/0 AL should not be used in a 200A feeder. I put in my own 200A service and used 2/0 copper. CU is more expensive than AL, but it was worth it to me. The Power Company hooked up their side of the meter with 4/0 AL. |
wire size and 200amp service
mm wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 13:31:44 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: Tim Smith wrote: In article , wrote: On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:34:42 -0700, wrote: I work for a major residential electrical equipment maker (starts with a "S" and ends with "iemens")...and our construction sales people tell me that the latest version of NEC requires 4/0 aluminum wiring for 200amp service. They are right Does it require aluminum? If his current aluminum wiring doesn't meet the current code and will have to be replaced, should he be considering switching from aluminum at the same time? -- --Tim Smith That's certainly an option, but not essential. Aluminum wiring is not an issue for these large gauges, it was only an issue when used in the small gauge (14-10) general wiring in houses. It's mostly a cost and personal preference issue as for service entrance use either is I don't understand "personal preference". It looks good with my eyes? I have stock in a copper company? Aluminum conductors are more flexible than the equivalent copper conductors and therefore easier to handle, especially for long pulls. Copper conductors don't need to have anti-ox compound applied to the connections. Current prices of each material come into play. The physically smaller space occupied by the copper cable of a given current rating can be a factor. Bottom line, personal preference as to which issue are most important to you. Are the only personal preference possibilities based on the misunderstanding that aluminum in large gauges is not good, AL wiring in small gauges and terminated at devices without the proper ratings is not good. |
wire size and 200amp service
You are going to get a permit for this work and it will get inspected. Right?
1. the two low-ball estimates were proposing to do it without permits or inspections. This was also a point of discomfort for me. I spoke with one of these guys and asked about getting doing the work by getting cable and going through the official process of permits, inspections, etc. and was told that if I wanted to go that route his price was going to be just a bit higher than the guy who gave me the "expected" answer the first time. 2. I think one of my problems with this situation was that I knew too much. My position with Siemens is the safety manager for our industrial service group...our folks go out and work on 480V and 4,160V, and 13,800V industrial equipment. 3. The final factor that was in the back of my mind was the fact that the house next door (built by the same developer) burnt to the ground 6 weeks ago in an apparent electrical system fire. |
wire size and 200amp service
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wire size and 200amp service
On Thu, 28 Jun 2007 23:01:22 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote: I don't understand "personal preference". It looks good with my eyes? I have stock in a copper company? Aluminum conductors are more flexible than the equivalent copper conductors and therefore easier to handle, especially for long pulls. Copper conductors don't need to have anti-ox compound applied to the connections. Current prices of each material come into play. The physically smaller space occupied by the copper cable of a given current rating can be a factor. Bottom line, personal preference as to which issue are most important to you. OK, I get it. Thanks a bunch. Are the only personal preference possibilities based on the misunderstanding that aluminum in large gauges is not good, AL wiring in small gauges and terminated at devices without the proper ratings is not good. |
wire size and 200amp service
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