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Old June 30th 07, 09:54 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

Ok, comments about LG and Samsung, along with front load economics in
general...

If you want to buy a machine that nobody knows how to fix, where the
manufacturer has made no effort to educate US servicers in general,
where parts are difficult to identify and locate, then LG and Samsung
are your best choice. Also, you might want to choose Fisher and
Paykel. As far as durability of these brands, they probably differ
little from their US counterparts. However, there really is no need
to go international. Domestic brands are just fine, and if you really
want a F/P style agitator, you can choose the Whirlpool Cabrio which,
IIRC, uses F/P technology anyway. Are you mesmerized by steam? It
is a gimmick. Nobody will ever know your garment was steamed, even
you.

The movement of the appliance industry in general is toward machines
that are so highly electronic and highly complicated, that only the
largest service outfits will have the deep pockets to offer service on
your machine, and the independents will slowly fade away. Let's say
you have a $1k washer, and it is broken and no particular component
presents itself as the exact problem. Now, which servicer will take
the risk to install a $250 board or $375 motor in it to see if they
can bring it back to life? No small servicer will stock those parts
or take the risk of being wrong. They'll be relegated to the simpler
machines, while all the popular ones with all the bells and whistles
will be left to the big boys.

Regarding the economics of front loaders, I would agree that there is
a very long breakeven point for these machines. Don't buy one for the
energy or water savings, unless you live where there is no water.
Probably the best reason to buy a front loader is if you want to
install it right out there so that your friends and neighbors can see
it. They'll be impressed, and you'll feel really good about yourself.

This is my dream, to take my 2k which I would use to buy a front
loader set, and buy 3 regular washers, and 3 regular dryers, and then
build a laundromat in my home, and do an entire week of laundry in an
hour.


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Old June 30th 07, 09:59 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

Oh, a little more about the F/P...I think that it and the Cabrio will
be the next Calypso, but we'll have to wait a few more years to find
out. Generally, NSA machines have dubious cleanability profiles, and
people say they twist and tear clothing. Typicall NSA machines have
greater pump problems. You'll have to decide for yourself to see if
it is worth it. Don't forget, NSA machines can have the same mildew/
odor issues as a front loader, since both are low water machines.

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Old July 2nd 07, 02:44 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

AE Todd wrote:

This is my dream, to take my 2k which I would use to buy a front
loader set, and buy 3 regular washers, and 3 regular dryers, and then
build a laundromat in my home, and do an entire week of laundry in an
hour.


HAhaha!

Good one. Thanks for the laugh!
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Old July 2nd 07, 10:49 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

AE Todd wrote:

If you want to buy a machine that nobody knows how to fix, where the
manufacturer has made no effort to educate US servicers in general,
where parts are difficult to identify and locate, then LG and Samsung
are your best choice.



OK..... so what "design" do you feel is the most
robust? Do you feel it is still the standard top
loader agitator design that had been in use for years?
It sound like your are nor sold on front loaders nor or
you sold on FP type designs (Cabrio)

Also, what is an "NSA" machine?

Thanks for all your help!
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Old July 2nd 07, 10:50 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

AE Todd wrote:

Here are the only platforms that
exist on domestic machines, both in traditional and non-standard
agitator (NSA) designs:


Ooops.. never mind I know what NSA means now


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Old July 3rd 07, 01:42 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

In answer to your question, a washer doesn't have to be "robust" to
clean your clothes. A Whirlpool washer with a regular agitator,
little electronics or other bells and whistles, is just fine. They
are easy to repair, service and parts are readily available.

Front loaders have their own repair profile. I am not suggesting that
one not buy one, but to accept the idea that those problems can't be
avoided just because the machine was expensive; saying to your
repairman, "I spent a thousand dollars on this machine and I think it
should have lasted longer" won't have much impact, because he doesn't
really care.


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Old July 12th 07, 04:49 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

AE Todd wrote:

In answer to your question, a washer doesn't have to be "robust" to
clean your clothes. A Whirlpool washer with a regular agitator,
little electronics or other bells and whistles, is just fine. They
are easy to repair, service and parts are readily available.


I meant "robust" in term of reliable..... not
complicated or fancy
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Old June 18th 11, 12:31 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...io-228602-.htm
biguggy wrote:

Why is anyone surprised that bearings fail in these machines?
I have serious reservations about the adequacy of these bearing
arrangements with out taking into account the following
The spiders in these machines are manufactured from aluminium alloys,
which are capable of being corroded by almost all laundry aids used,
including HE detergent, should the required concentrations be reached. The
product of this corrosion is aluminium oxide, the same very hard gritty
‘stuff’ that is the ‘grit’ on the orange coloured sandpaper. Now most of
this aluminium oxide will adhere, very strongly, to the spider: A very
small percentage will be dissolved in the ‘water’ and some will be carried
in suspension in the ‘water’ making a very effective grinding paste. In my
opinion the soft lips of the shaft seal stand very little chance once this
occurs with the result that the seal fails allowing ‘water’ into the
bearings which destroys the bearings in two ways, the normal corrosion of
steel in water and the added destructive power of the ‘grit’ abrading the
bearings.

Many posts on many sites claim that the corrosion of the spiders is due to
galvanic action. I do not agree, I believe it is primarily chemical
corrosion.

Should the corrosion have been galvanic between the stainless steel drum
and the aluminium spider the majority of the corrosion would have been at
the junction of the two metals i.e. at the ends of the arms. I have seen
no photographs of spiders corroded in such a manner, nor read of any
similar descriptions.

Aluminium, and its alloys are corroded when immersed in an aqueous
solution with a pH value above about 8.0 or below about 4.0 (nitric acid
is a well known exception). All detergents have to be above about 8.0 or
they would not work. The Material Safety Data Sheets put out by Proctor
and Gamble state that the pH for one of the liquid ‘Tides’ is 8.0 and for
one of the ‘Tide’ powdered detergents as 11.0. Bleach, (sodium
hypochlorite) is also very corrosive to aluminium. I should add that for
corrosion of the spider to take place these levels are considerably above
the levels found in a washing machine during the wash/rinse phases of the
cycle.

Sodium carbonate (washing soda) and sodium percarbonate found in some
laundry aids (Affresh and Oxi-Clean [powder]) are also corrosive to
aluminium, as is borax, provided the required concentrations are reached.

I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows.
Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the
shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider
close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain
‘contaminants’, unused detergents and other laundry aids used, soil from
the laundry, products of the reactions between the laundry aids used and
the soil from the laundry, chemicals contained in the tap water used and
the products of any reactions between these chemicals, the soil and the
laundry aids used. Should sufficient of these ‘contaminants’ be present
the pH of the mixture can, as evaporation takes place, rise to a level
where corrosion will take place.

Corroded spiders can be seen at: -

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/10/28/fr...tallic-misery/

http://softsolder.wordpress.com/2010...-drum-the-rot/
for a LG spider
http://www.viewpoints.com/LG-TROMM-F...-review-33dc10

For information on galvanic corrosion there is a very good paper at: -
http://www.unene.ca/un1001/UN1001_Ga...0Corrosion.ppt

For information on chemical corrosion of aluminium (or ‘micro galvanic
corrosion as the author calls it, I grew up calling it ‘pitting corrosion)
there is an informative paper at:
-http://www.sintef.no/static/mt/norlight/seminars/norlight2003/Postere/Gaute%20Svenningsen.pdf


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Old June 18th 11, 06:35 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class actionsuit on this machine!

On 06/18/11 07:31 am, biguggy wrote:
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...io-228602-.htm
biguggy wrote:

Why is anyone surprised that bearings fail in these machines?


snip

This a rather old thread to which you are responding, but I'll throw in
my 2 cents' worth.

We've had ours for about 9 years, averaging two or three loads a week,
and it's been noisy for the last several years. When it was still in
warranty the controller failed and was replaced free, and I asked the
service guy about the reports I had heard of bearing failure. He said it
was usually caused by using non-HE detergent and that replacement of the
whole drum assembly was a 2-person 4-hour job -- no bearings available
separately -- costing big bucks. I have since read that bearings are
available but not from Sears. If ours quits I may still try to fix it
myself, as we have the dryer stacked above it and that dryer might not
fit a different washer.

My major gripe concerning this washer was that when it was delivered
they took the shipping braces away with them although the user manual
says to keep them in case the machine needs to be moved again -- and
when we did move I had to *buy* a new set of shipping braces. I
mentioned this to our friendly Sears person in our new location, and she
said not leaving them behind was common practice and that I probably was
the only person who had ever read the part in the manual about keeping them.

Perce
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Old June 18th 11, 11:00 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Default Kenmore 417 front loader washer: There should be class action suit on this machine!

responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...io-228602-.htm
biguggy wrote:

I know it is an elderly thread but it is still, in my opinion, a valid
subject. To my knowledge Sears were still selling machines with the same
part number inner tub and spiders in May of 2010 as the ones sold in 2001.
So the same failures can be expected to keep occurring for a while yet.
Assuming that you have a ‘Kenmore’ 417 or 970 (the Canadian variant), or a
Frigidaire, or even a GE (the same machine was marketed, with minor
differences but the ‘guts’ were/are the same by all three companies).
For my two cents worth, if I were you I would get at your machine before
more damage is done. The more the bearings ‘wear’ the greater will be the
‘run-out’ of the inner tub with respect to the outer tub. This will allow
the screws securing the baffles or vanes in the inner drum to score,
perhaps to perforation, the outer drum. Additionally even if your spider
currently has little or no corrosion it is likely to be ‘toast’ because
the sleeve on which the shaft seal runs is likely now scored or grooved to
such an extend that it would be a very unwise to re-use it with a new seal.
A cheaper repair for you, should you have access to a Sears parts
warehouse in Canada is to get the ‘tub kit’, part number 970 134453200 for
C$229.00 (last quoted to me in March of this year) plus S&H plus taxes,
which includes inner and outer drums complete with spider, seals, bearings
and pulley. Sears at the same time quoted me C$259.00 for just the inner
tub and spider, go figure. Unfortunately the ‘tub kit’ is not available in
the USA.






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