We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

Those bulbs are primarily decorative. CFLs would look a little
strange. I'd make a trip to a "big box" store and:

1. Get lower wattage bulbs

2. Get frosted bulbs -- reduce the glare.

There is no problem, to my understanding, of having a bunch of CFLs on
the same circuit/lamp bank.

The problem I've had with those light bars is simply glare. In one
case -- new house, standard "builder's" light setup, I replaced the
light bar with a nice three light array with shades. Threw enough
light to shave by, but cut down the glare a LOT. In an other case, I
did as I suggested above... lower wattage, and frosted bulbs.

You take out the bulbs, pull the sleeves from around the sockets, and
the decorative plate comes off. The backing plate is simply screwed to
the wall. The usual precautions about working with electrical
circuits...

The replacement took place in a bathroom that I was repainting and
papering.

You can use the CF bulbs, no reason not to at all, they will present less
load and heat than the incandescent bulbs. They even make a round globe
shaped one ( kind of expensive, but if you care about the esthetics..) that
will look just like those..I've seen then at HD and Wal-Mart, among other
places.

--

Mike S.

"Edward" wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

You can do it, although you may not like the light . The bulbs you presently
have are clear G-25s. I don't believe they make a "G" CFL, so anything you
get that's made to resemble an incandescent lamp will stick out considerably
farther



"Edward" wrote in message
oups.com...
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

In article , RBM wrote:
You can do it, although you may not like the light . The bulbs you presently
have are clear G-25s. I don't believe they make a "G" CFL, so anything you
get that's made to resemble an incandescent lamp will stick out considerably
farther

I have seen "G" CFLs. They are not really common, but try Home Depot,
Lowes and Ikea. Maybe online outfits such as bulbs.com.

Then again, those G incandescents are clear. Glare would not be
increased by replacing these with any shape CFL. Nowadays, spiral CFLs
are available at both Lowes and Home Depot in the somewhat halogenlike
3500K color (a whiter shade of warm white, still more "incandescent" than
"pure white"). They now call those "bright white" and they are available
in a few different wattages.

- Don Klipstein )

Edward wrote:
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

I have much the same setup. I use frosted lamps. I have replaced every
other original lamp with CF lamps similar to these
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...AM2&lpage=none

The mix provides and even better, more natural color than either by
itself. It reduces the heat greatly.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

On Jun 23, 3:37 pm, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:
Edward wrote:
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

I have much the same setup. I use frosted lamps. I have replaced every
other original lamp with CF lamps similar to thesehttp://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=82382-7...

The mix provides and even better, more natural color than either by
itself. It reduces the heat greatly.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Many cfls have poor color rendition, old types make you look green.
Popular Mechanics magazine recently did a test of maybe 10 brands and
the most pleasing they rated. even better than incandesant was Home
depot brand. Incandesants are basicly heaters, 90% of their energy is
heat, 10% is light. The review should be avalaible at the magazine

In .com, ransley wrote:
On Jun 23, 3:37 pm, "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Edward wrote:
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

I have much the same setup. I use frosted lamps. I have replaced
every other original lamp with CF lamps similar to these
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...ductId=82382-7...

The mix provides and even better, more natural color than either by
itself. It reduces the heat greatly.

Many cfls have poor color rendition, old types make you look green.

I generally find skin tone rendition from CFLs (other than dollar store
clunkers and the "FUL" not-quite-"true-compact") to be a little pinkish
compared to incandescent, rather than greenish.

Many non-compact fluorescents, especially ones without a "triphosphor"
formulation, appear to me to make skin tones more greenish/yellowish/pale.
The offenders mostly have color rendering index outside the range of 82-86
or "daylight"/"full spectrum" icy cold to bluish color or both in my
experience. What I consider the worst is "old tech warm white" whose CRI
is 53, even worse than the widely-berated "old tech cool white" (CRI of
62).

Popular Mechanics magazine recently did a test of maybe 10 brands and
the most pleasing they rated. even better than incandesant was Home
depot brand. Incandesants are basicly heaters, 90% of their energy is
heat, 10% is light. The review should be avalaible at the magazine

I have yet to see a Home Depot brand CFL.

However, I have seen them sell mainly Philips ones and promote those
until a few years ago when they made Commercial Electric their CFL brand
that appeared to me their favored one. And about a year ago, I saw them
largely ditching Commercial Electric in favor of N:Vision.

Meanwhile, what I have found among 2700K ("regular incandescent
approximation CFL color") CFLs are a couple of trends:

1. Screw-base ones of wattage 19 watts or less and with electronic
ballasts tend to appear to me more incandescent-like in color than others.

2. Ones with non-electronic ballasts appear to me in general to have
slightly more mercury spectral content and less-incandescentlike color.
Nowadays among CFLs this is mainly pin-base ballastless ones, and since
the ballasts for those are in the fixtures this does not rule out the
better electronic ballasts.

3. If you don't like a fluorescent to be more-pink-less-yellow than an
incandescent or a halogen, then I advise against one particular brand that
I consider good and reputable - Sylvania, highly available at Lowes.
I have found Sylvania CFLs in recent years to have their "regular color"
"more harsh" not only by slightly higher color temperature (3000 rather than
2700) but "excessively" (my words & findings) "erring-away-from-greenish"
so as to appear to me to have "the common pinkish/purplish problem".

4. Lately, both Lowes and Home Depot have been carring a few different
wattages of CFLs of a color that is just in the past year being noted as
"bright white".
This is a whiter shade, close to halfway between "regular CFL color"
and "cool white", with the usual 82 color rendering index of decent
CFLs.
I consider this "a whiter shade of warm white" and I find it quite
pleasing.
The nominal color temperature is 3500 K.

I find both the Sylvanias at Lowes and the N:Vision ones at Home Depot
to err slightly from 3500K color by being a bit less yellow and a bit more
purple than "true 3500 K blackbody color", but I still find it pleasant.

Keep in mind that whiter light color can appear "dreary" when light
level is lower. The challenge here gets more extreme when the light is of
sunlight-like or worse-still of daylight-like color. Thankfully, 3500K is
"warm enough" (low enough color temperature) to look good at typical
bathroom illumination levels and even most other brighter home
illumination levels. 4100K ("cool white") has a good chance of appearing
"dreary" unless illumination level gets to around 1000-plus lux (around
90-plus footcandles) common in office areas, classrooms, and retail
display areas.

- Don Klipstein )

Edward wrote:
We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

I have six bulb bath bar lights in each of two separate bathrooms.

Each uses all CFLs, with a whitish frosted globe cover.

Number of CFLs has never been a problem.

ransley wrote:

....
Incandesants are basicly heaters, 90% of their energy is
heat, 10% is light.


If I am not mistaken, it worse: 97% heat, 3% light.

In article Vwkfi.1305$s%.1016@trnddc02, M Q wrote:
ransley wrote:

...
Incandesants are basicly heaters, 90% of their energy is
heat, 10% is light.


If I am not mistaken, it worse: 97% heat, 3% light.

It varies, but for most household incandescents it's 4-8% light.

25 watt incandescent of color temperature 2550 K and achieving 7 lumens
per watt is lowish side and about 3% efficient at converting electrical
power to visible light. Some 25 watt 120V incandescents, even some of
same color temperature, get closer to 3.75% efficiency.

60 watt incandescent producing 870 lumens and having color temperature
in the upper 2700's is about 5.6-5.75% efficient.

100 watt incandescent with color temperature 2860-2870 K and producing
1710-1750 lumens is about 6.7% efficient.

Halogens and higher wattage incandescents with color temperature about
3000 K and achieving 20 lumens per watt have efficiency of converting
electrical energy to visible light (400-700 nm) about 8%.

3400K photoflood lamps with life expectancy in hours hardly/barely
double digits and wattage at least 250 watts can achieve about 13%
efficiency.

Compact fluorescents achieve about 20%, but have their spectrum
concentrated towards more-efficacious wavelengths so as to have lumen/watt
"overall luminous efficacy" figures almost 4 times that of an
incandescent whose efficiency at producing visible light is lower by a
factor of only 3.

- Don Klipstein )

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:26:12 -0700, Edward
wrote:

We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

Hi Edward,

Another option is to simply replace the fixture with a two tube 4 ft.
T8 fluorescent strip (approximate cost, $25.00) and build a valance
that is open at the top and bottom so that more light can be
distributed throughout the room.

A fluorescent strip would consume just 60-watts and two good quality
T8 fluorescent tubes would provide upwards of 6,300 lumens of light --
roughly the same amount of light as fifteen or more 40-watt G25
incandescents. For residential bathrooms, I might recommend a T8 lamp
with a 3,000K colour temperature and a CRI (colour rendering index) of
85 or higher (e.g., a GE SPX30). The Philips 32T8/ADV830 is another
excellent choice.

Not only are linear fluorescents less costly to replace, they produce
1.5 to 2.0 times more light, watt for watt, last two to three times
longer than a standard CFL and the quality of the light they provide
is generally superior. They also produce more light at startup and
reach full brightness more quickly.

Best regards,
Paul

On Jun 24, 9:04 am, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:26:12 -0700, Edward
wrote:

We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

Hi Edward,

Another option is to simply replace the fixture with a two tube 4 ft.
T8 fluorescent strip (approximate cost, $25.00) and build a valance
that is open at the top and bottom so that more light can be
distributed throughout the room.

A fluorescent strip would consume just 60-watts and two good quality
T8 fluorescent tubes would provide upwards of 6,300 lumens of light --
roughly the same amount of light as fifteen or more 40-watt G25
incandescents. For residential bathrooms, I might recommend a T8 lamp
with a 3,000K colour temperature and a CRI (colour rendering index) of
85 or higher (e.g., a GE SPX30). The Philips 32T8/ADV830 is another
excellent choice.

Not only are linear fluorescents less costly to replace, they produce
1.5 to 2.0 times more light, watt for watt, last two to three times
longer than a standard CFL and the quality of the light they provide
is generally superior. They also produce more light at startup and
reach full brightness more quickly.

Best regards,
Paul

T 12 flourescent and electronic ballast would be the most efficient.

We have globe-style "GE BIAX" CFLs in our vanity. Only problem is they
take for-EVER to come up to full brightness. If you can live with
that, they're fine and should run a lot cooler. Maybe other brands
aren't as bad.

In . com, ransley wrote:
edited for space
On Jun 24, Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

Another option is to simply replace the fixture with a two tube 4 ft.
T8 fluorescent strip (approximate cost, $25.00) and build a valance
that is open at the top and bottom so that more light can be
distributed throughout the room.

A fluorescent strip would consume just 60-watts and two good quality
T8 fluorescent tubes would provide upwards of 6,300 lumens of light --
roughly the same amount of light as fifteen or more 40-watt G25
incandescents. For residential bathrooms, I might recommend a T8 lamp
with a 3,000K colour temperature and a CRI (colour rendering index) of
85 or higher (e.g., a GE SPX30). The Philips 32T8/ADV830 is another
excellent choice.

T 12 flourescent and electronic ballast would be the most efficient.

Do you have any figures to support that?

According to my Philips lamp catalog, F40/30U (Ultralume 3000K F40T12)
has initial lumens of 3300, which is 82.5 lumens/watt.

The 34 watt version has rated initial lumens of 2950, which works out to
86.8 lumens/watt.

The F40T12 "Advantage" 3000K (a premium one) has rated initial lumens of
3600, which works out to 90 lumens per watt.

I cannot find any more efficacious T12 4-footers.

The same catalog says initial lumens of 2950 for most F32T8 models, 3100
for the "Advantage" premium one. Those work out to 92.2 and 96.9
lumens/watt respectively.

The industry standard is for T12 and for 17, 25, and 32 watt T8
fluorescents to have their performance specified with a magnetic ballast
(and newer T5 ones specified with an electronic ballast).
T12 and T8 should both improve in efficacy by roughly equal margins over
the efficacies that the catalog lumen and watt specifications indicate
when electronic ballasts are used.

I am aware that T12 is supposed to be more efficient than T8 according
to books by Elenbaas or Waymouth. However, it appears to me that T8
permits higher quality phosphor at a given cost because less phosphor is
needed. Also, for equal length, T8 has a lower percentage of input power
going into electrode losses due to higher lamp voltage.

Furthermore, I expect better prices and quality for T8 electronic
ballasts than for T12 ones because T8 electronic ballasts are extremely
common and T12 ones are far from that.

- Don Klipstein )

In .com,
wrote:

We have globe-style "GE BIAX" CFLs in our vanity. Only problem is they
take for-EVER to come up to full brightness. If you can live with
that, they're fine and should run a lot cooler. Maybe other brands
aren't as bad.

If warmup is an issue, then I would go for linear fluorescents as
proposed by Paul Eldridge. If the lamps must be screw-in CFLs, I would
see if bare spirals would be acceptable.

In my experience, compact fluorescents with outer bulbs mostly tend to
be even worse at warmup requirements than ones without, such as bare
spirals.

What I consider the likely explanation: In a CFL with an outer bulb,
the fluorescent tubing reaches a higher temperature. So it has to be
designed for its performance to be optimum at that higher temperature.

As a result, it starts dimmer than a bare spiral CFL does, and takes
more time to heat itself to the higher temperature, along with heating up
the outer bulb in order to reach full operating temperature.

CFLs with more severe warmup requirements tend to have a wider range of
ambient temperature over which they work well. As a result, ones for
outdoor use tend to have outer bulbs, start dim, and take a minute (or
more) to get close to full light output.

- Don Klipstein )

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:57:13 +0000 (UTC), (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

In . com, ransley wrote:
edited for space

T 12 flourescent and electronic ballast would be the most efficient.

Do you have any figures to support that?

According to my Philips lamp catalog, F40/30U (Ultralume 3000K F40T12)
has initial lumens of 3300, which is 82.5 lumens/watt.

The 34 watt version has rated initial lumens of 2950, which works out to
86.8 lumens/watt.

The F40T12 "Advantage" 3000K (a premium one) has rated initial lumens of
3600, which works out to 90 lumens per watt.

I cannot find any more efficacious T12 4-footers.

The same catalog says initial lumens of 2950 for most F32T8 models, 3100
for the "Advantage" premium one. Those work out to 92.2 and 96.9
lumens/watt respectively.

The industry standard is for T12 and for 17, 25, and 32 watt T8
fluorescents to have their performance specified with a magnetic ballast
(and newer T5 ones specified with an electronic ballast).
T12 and T8 should both improve in efficacy by roughly equal margins over
the efficacies that the catalog lumen and watt specifications indicate
when electronic ballasts are used.

I am aware that T12 is supposed to be more efficient than T8 according
to books by Elenbaas or Waymouth. However, it appears to me that T8
permits higher quality phosphor at a given cost because less phosphor is
needed. Also, for equal length, T8 has a lower percentage of input power
going into electrode losses due to higher lamp voltage.

Furthermore, I expect better prices and quality for T8 electronic
ballasts than for T12 ones because T8 electronic ballasts are extremely
common and T12 ones are far from that.

- Don Klipstein )

Hi Don,

That's certainly my overall impression as well. As you noted, the
32-watt Philips Advantage has an initial lumen rating of 3,100, which
pegs lamp efficacy at 96.9 lumens/watt (not including ballast losses).

Source:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/...pdf/p-5369.pdf

The T12 equivalent of this Advantage lamp produces 3,100 initial
lumens as well, but consumes 34-watts; lamp efficacy in this case is
91.2 lumens/watt. This is just slightly better than the 40-watt
version you referenced above which, as you indicated, comes in at 90
lumens/watt.

Source:
http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/...pdf/p-2497.pdf

Likewise, Osram Sylvania's FO32/830/XPS/ECO is rated at 3,100 lumens.
The closest match in their T12 lineup is the Designer 800 and it
produces 3,300 and 2,900 lumens in its 40 and 32-watt versions,
respectively.

It's pretty much the same story over at GE. The F32T8XLSPX30HLEC is
rated at 3,100 lumens and their equivalent T12 numbers comes in at
3,400 and 2,900 lumens respectively.

Assuming T8 and T12 electronic ballasts are equally efficient in
operation (and I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise), lumen
for lumen, a T12 lamp would consume 5 to 10 per cent more energy than
its T8 counterpart.

T12 is obsolete, dead-end technology and I would expect the major lamp
manufacturers to focus the bulk of their attention on their T5 and T8
lines going forward.

Best regards,
Paul

On Jun 24, 12:04 pm, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote:
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 14:26:12 -0700, Edward
wrote:

We have a set of lights that basically heat the place up like a
toaster oven. So I was thinking abotu putting a bunch of CFLs in
there.
Can I do that with a fixture like this? Or can't one have too many
CFLs on the same circuit?

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/195...1867842_rs.jpg

Hi Edward,

Another option is to simply replace the fixture with a two tube 4 ft.
T8 fluorescent strip (approximate cost, $25.00) and build a valance
that is open at the top and bottom so that more light can be
distributed throughout the room.

A fluorescent strip would consume just 60-watts and two good quality
T8 fluorescent tubes would provide upwards of 6,300 lumens of light --
roughly the same amount of light as fifteen or more 40-watt G25
incandescents. For residential bathrooms, I might recommend a T8 lamp
with a 3,000K colour temperature and a CRI (colour rendering index) of
85 or higher (e.g., a GE SPX30). The Philips 32T8/ADV830 is another
excellent choice.

Not only are linear fluorescents less costly to replace, they produce
1.5 to 2.0 times more light, watt for watt, last two to three times
longer than a standard CFL and the quality of the light they provide
is generally superior. They also produce more light at startup and
reach full brightness more quickly.

Best regards,
Paul

That would be my ideal solution.
But, I'm not Bob Villa, and we're not down there all the time. How
hard would it be just to replace that monstrosity with a T8
fluorescent strip? I can replace electrical outlets, change tires...
but generally speaking I fix computers.
So when your hard drive goes bad let me know.

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 19:44:29 -0700, Edward
wrote:

That would be my ideal solution.
But, I'm not Bob Villa, and we're not down there all the time. How
hard would it be just to replace that monstrosity with a T8
fluorescent strip? I can replace electrical outlets, change tires...
but generally speaking I fix computers.
So when your hard drive goes bad let me know.

Hi Edward,

If you're not comfortable tackling this type of work, it's probably
best to let someone else take it on. That said, if you can work on
computers, this should be pretty straightforward.

Obvious safety precautions apply; i.e., as a first step, turn off the
circuit breaker that powers this fixture. Removal of the old fixture
probably requires popping off the front faceplate, disconnecting the
feed wires and removal of the mounting hardware. A set of
installation instructions should accompany the new fixture. When
reconnecting the feed wires, make sure the ground (green wire) is
properly attached to the metal frame -- there is a metal screw that
holds this wire firmly in place.

A second set of hands will make the job a lot easier, so a couple of
(root)beers and perhaps a few burgers on the 'Q might help move things
along nicely. And if you don't want to build a valance to shield the
fixture, you might opt for one with an internal diffuser/lense cover.

Best regards,
Paul