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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan


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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?


I'm sure there are terms in the contract covering this. You need to
find that contract and read it to learn what you agreed to. Could be
they're trying to get more than they're entitled to, but isn't the first
thing on my thought list.

Assuming it is what the contract says, you don't have much of a basis
for anything, but you might try and see if they'd accept a settlement
for half, say. After that, you can just walk I suppose, and make them
come after you, but when they do you will definitely lose and end up w/
collection costs besides.

If it doesn't give them that right, then you show them what it does say
and pay that...

Seems pretty straightforward to me -- read the contract.

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"dpb" wrote in message ...
....

Seems pretty straightforward to me -- read the contract.

--


I'm not disputing the terms of the contract, I'm asking if anyone has had a
similar experience with this or another alarm company.



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Dan wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...
...
Seems pretty straightforward to me -- read the contract.

--


I'm not disputing the terms of the contract, I'm asking if anyone has had a
similar experience with this or another alarm company.


If they have a contract, what difference does it make? They can choose
to enforce it at their pleasure. I can see wanting to somehow get out
of coughing up $700, but if that's what the contract says and that's
what they're asking for, don't see you have much recourse. Guess you
could give the contract to an attorney and see if there's something in
it that could give you a right to break it, but one would presume they
had a team of legal beagles draft it initially. If there were a
widespread issue here like a class action suit or somesuch, I'd expect
an internet search would turn that up quickly...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...

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"dpb" wrote in message ...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...



Soooo, then you DON'T have any direct experience?




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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

In article , "Dan" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...


Soooo, then you DON'T have any direct experience?


It appears to me that
(a) he *does* have experience with contracts in the real world in general, and
(b) you don't.
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:36:11 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan


You will need to read (and understand) the contract that you signed.
You did keep a copy, right? Three years sounds like a long time. My
father once told me, "Never sign a paper that you don't understand."
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early


Phisherman wrote in message ...
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:36:11 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we

had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into

the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term,

nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we

will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract

early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan


You will need to read (and understand) the contract that you signed.
You did keep a copy, right? Three years sounds like a long time.

My
father once told me, "Never sign a paper that you don't understand."


I don't think understanding the contract is the problem in this case.
I think he doesn't want to pay what the contract states. At least
that's my take.

Cheri


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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we
had Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months
into the 3 year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of
the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay
for service we will not be using. Has anyone had any experience
terminating such a contract early, particularly with Protection One?


I have no such experience; however, I know that similar contracts -
those calling for a service to be rendered in the future - have not
been upheld when the service cannot be provided for any reason...you
dying, you moving...


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Dan wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...



Soooo, then you DON'T have any direct experience?


As Doug notes, I do have experience w/ contracts enough that I don't
sign things w/ such onerous penalty clauses. (It's a primary reason I've
never got a satellite service because I won't accept the terms of the
agreements they propose and it's never been a high-enough priority to
try to negotiate something I would/could agree to.)

So, no, I don't have a direct experience w/ whichever company it was you
asked about, no, but I don't need that to know what the options are if,
indeed, the contract has those terms in it. I would assume they're
enforceable unless an attorney can find an "out", as suggested before,
or they would voluntarily accept a settlement or there is some general
class action or other order from a State AG or similar against them that
would be effective in your local jurisdiction.

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dadiOH wrote:
Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we
had Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months
into the 3 year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of
the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay
for service we will not be using. Has anyone had any experience
terminating such a contract early, particularly with Protection One?


I have no such experience; however, I know that similar contracts -
those calling for a service to be rendered in the future - have not
been upheld when the service cannot be provided for any reason...you
dying, you moving...


My understanding has been those have been for service, not cancellation
charges. I still think it depends on the terms of the contract and his
best bet is to ask either local legal advice or his State AG's office if
there's an out for these types of agreements...

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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Dan"
wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...


Soooo, then you DON'T have any direct experience?


It appears to me that
(a) he *does* have experience with contracts in the real world in general,
and
(b) you don't.


Your opinion of my knowledge of contracts is baseless (as well as
irrelevant), since I have expressed no opinion on the contract. I merely
asked if anyone has had this PARTICULAR experience, and what came of it.


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"dpb" wrote in message ...
dadiOH wrote:

dying, you moving...

My understanding has been those have been for service, not cancellation
charges. I still think it depends on the terms of the contract and his
best bet is to ask either local legal advice or his State AG's office if
there's an out for these types of agreements...

--


It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but the AG
thing is a good idea. Thanks.

Dan


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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan


try alt.security.alarms
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan


First, post this on alt.legal and / or misc.legal and you'll probably
get a more informed response.

Second, just south of you in Oregon, the Oregon Court of Appeals
on January 31, 2007, decided a very interesting case involving an
adhesion contract with an allegedly unconscionable arbitration clause.

See, generally, See Vasquez-Lopez v. Beneficial Oregon, Inc., 210 Or App
553, 560, 152 P3d 940 (2007)

http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/A125270.htm


A very interesing analysis of unconscionability and the voiding of
unconscionable clauses in contracts. Of course, it doesn't control in
Washington State,(and I have less than zero knowledge of Washington
law on unconscionable contract clauses) but it may give you a starting
point for analysis.

It should frighten the folks who use hidden mice type screw the customer
clauses.

An early termination penalty may be unconscionable. Depends upon the facts.

Good luck!







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"newb" wrote in message
...


try alt.security.alarms


Thanks, I'll take a look.


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"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
First, post this on alt.legal and / or misc.legal and you'll probably
get a more informed response.


Jim-Thanks, I did post on misc.legal.moderated, post hasn't appeared yet
(not yet approved by the moderator).


Second, just south of you in Oregon, the Oregon Court of Appeals
on January 31, 2007, decided a very interesting case involving an
adhesion contract with an allegedly unconscionable arbitration clause.

See, generally, See Vasquez-Lopez v. Beneficial Oregon, Inc., 210 Or App
553, 560, 152 P3d 940 (2007)

http://www.publications.ojd.state.or.us/A125270.htm


A very interesing analysis of unconscionability and the voiding of
unconscionable clauses in contracts. Of course, it doesn't control in
Washington State,(and I have less than zero knowledge of Washington
law on unconscionable contract clauses) but it may give you a starting
point for analysis.

It should frighten the folks who use hidden mice type screw the customer
clauses.

An early termination penalty may be unconscionable. Depends upon the
facts.

Good luck!


Thanks much for that, I'll look at the citation, sounds very interesting.

Dan


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Why would you sign a three year agreement on a rentsl property? You
were taken by the alarm industry. Just pay up and be done with them.
Yu signed so pay

On Jun 19, 2:36 pm, "Dan" wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?

Thanks

Dan



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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

In article , "Dan" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Dan"
wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

imo, ymmv, $0.02, etc., of course...

Soooo, then you DON'T have any direct experience?


It appears to me that
(a) he *does* have experience with contracts in the real world in general,
and
(b) you don't.


Your opinion of my knowledge of contracts is baseless (as well as
irrelevant), since I have expressed no opinion on the contract. I merely
asked if anyone has had this PARTICULAR experience, and what came of it.


You don't seem to understand that other persons' experiences are similarly
irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the terms of *your* contract.
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...

You don't seem to understand that other persons' experiences are similarly
irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the terms of *your* contract.


Wrong. If there is a history of this company in particular or the industry
in general adjusting these claims if someone bitches enough (as companies
will often do in consumer relations), and I learn this from several others
who've had the same experience and had them do so, that is knowledge I can
use to my advantage. ONCE AGAIN, that is what I was asking for, NOT amateur
lessons in contract law.




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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:36:11 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?


First, maybe you can get your coverage transferred to your new
location. Do they cover that area. Even if it is a long distance
call when you have an alarm or a test, that extra money will be a
pittance, if they are in a position to notify the police (or whatever
they do) in your new location.

If you can work something like this out, you probably will have to,
because there is a general duty to mitigate damages in a contract
case. That is, even though it might be "wrong" for them to collect
money for no service, they did have a reasonable expectation you would
be there long enough to complete your contract. Usually this means
finding a new tenant for an apartment, or covering up even unordered
building materials so they arent' ruined, but I think it would apply
here, before you asked for relieve as in the next paragraph here.


Also, is there any chance you can get the new tenants at your old
place to buy you out. But them you will have to give a discount to,
unless your pro-rated three year contract is already at a discount,
but the new tenant if he has any sense won't sign a contract with you,
he'll only pay month by month.

Alternatively, I have no expericence like you ask for, haha, but I
know the expression, The Law abhors a forfeiture. I think that is
what you have here, if you forfeit the 700 dollars while getting
nothing for it. But what the expression means in practice, I don't
know. But I don't think people are necessarily held to every term of
a contract, even if the contract is clear, despite the well
intentioned comments of many people here.

You also have a contract of adhesion, one you had no input in writing,
at least regarding the clause in question. IIRC that means that any
ambiguity in the contract is interpreted in favor of the party that
didn't draw the contract, but that might be a general rule and you
might even have a tad more with a contract of adhesion. I forget, and
different states are somewhat different anyhow, probably, even if I r
remembered.

I also keep having this baseless notion that it can be better to pay a
bill and sue for the money back then to risk a negative item on your
credit report for not paying in the first place. Even though you
could post an answer to the negative item on your credit report, I
don't know that that really negates the item. My notino is baseless,
because it comes totally out of my head. Check with someone who knows
about credit, and who knows if a suit after payment is made is harder
to win than if they sue you. They might not sue you, but then you
will surely have a negative item on your credit report, and no court
verdict to contradict it, only your own explanation.

I hear now that credit reports and credit score are used even when
deciding to issue health insurance, on the theory I guess that people
who don't take care of their bills don't take care of their bodies
either. Or some such notion. And I know if you let your fire
insurance lapse, some companies won't write a new policy. So I guess
credit score and other irrelevancies are more important than ever.

Please I'd apprecitate any feedback on this because it involves a few
issues I've wondered about for a long time, and might need to know
some day.

No offense meant, but anyone who says you don't want to pay what the
contract says would probably feel the same way in your shoes. Whether
he read the contract in advance or not.

Oh yeah, if you could show in court or even before court maybe that a
couple, several or every other company had a similar clause in their
contract, or that the company you went with had a feature that other
companies didn't offer, that would be good for you.

OTOH, if the company you are dealing with could show that you could
have had a month to month contract for more money, that would be bad
for you. You committed to 3 years to get a discount. OTOH, even if
there were this higher priced contract, you should calculate how much
15 months of that would have cost you, subract what you have already
paid, and offer to pay the difference. That would be fair, and would
make you look good. Don't just offer, send them a letter with the
caluculation in detail, and a check for the amount, marked Payment in
Full, above where the payee endorses, which is better than the comment
line beccause they are presumed to see that notation when they endorse
the check. I don't know what the law is on notes made on the comment
line, but that are is is mostly for your info, not for legal proof,
afaik. Though mayyybe this is influenced by whether you get your
checks themselves back, or you can only get printouts from the
computer. If you get the checks back, you can write in the comment
line after the fact. If you can get only a printout of both sides at
once, maybe a judge will take the comment line seriously.)

And don't use a money order or anything but your own checking account
for things like this, becausae you can't get a money order back and it
it is probably very hard to get an image of the check. And certainly
don't pay online because there is no way to make comments, or to prove
them later.
If no good answer during the life of this thread, maybe you can remove
NOPSAM from my -from address and write me some day.

Thanks

Dan


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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:10 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but the AG
thing is a good idea. Thanks.


The AG may be a good idea if the office has somethingb helpful to say,
but if they don't have something helpful, it doesn't mean much. They
are not your lawyer and they mostly know about illegal activities, and
not about all the arguments that will win in court.

You'll end up talking to a clerk, not a lawyer, and even if a lawyer,
he won't have the time to go over all your options or possible
arguments. The alarm company is not doing anything illegal by writing
a contract that favors themselves. That doesn't mean a court will
enforce it, or that they won't settle for less than the full 700 to
avoid fighting about it, and paying their own lawyer's fees.

I'm not suggesting anyone get free service with this kind of argument,
but if you can't work out some substitution, you'll be getting no
service, so it's reasonable for them to compromise. If they had a
month to month rate, maybe that amount plus finally offer another 50
dollars, or 100, in addition to the monthly rate minus what you ahave
paid.

Dan


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mm wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:10 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but the AG
thing is a good idea. Thanks.


The AG may be a good idea if the office has somethingb helpful to say,
but if they don't have something helpful, it doesn't mean much. They
are not your lawyer and they mostly know about illegal activities, and
not about all the arguments that will win in court.


That's not the purpose in calling them -- the point is to find out if
their office has made any declaration against a particular firm in
general in the pertinent jurisdiction. It's the kind of thing OP is
hoping for--that, or a class-action suit or some such.

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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we had
Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months into the 3
year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of the term, nearly
$700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay for service we will not be
using. Has anyone had any experience terminating such a contract early,
particularly with Protection One?


Hello Dan,

I have experience with Protection One. The reason they will collect
their fee, which they are billing you for, is they gave you a break on
installation, providing you signed a service contract.

You can chose not to pay the bill, you can consult an attorney, which
more than likely will charge you to review the contract. But, the final
outcome will be, you will owe because you signed the contract.

Protection One will turn all debts over to a collection agency, your
credit rating will drop, and in the end, you still will have to pay,
plus all interest incurred at the highest amount allowed in the state of
Washington.

I'm sure you will be hearing from us at Protection One.

Thank you for choosing Protection One, for your protection.

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On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:40:13 -0400, mm
wrote:

If they had a
month to month rate, maybe that amount plus finally offer another 50
dollars, or 100, in addition to the monthly rate minus what you ahave
paid.


BTW, it's "fair" for you to pay the extra 50 or 100. You in effect
wagered that yhou would be there the whole three years and save on a
3-year contract over a month to month contract. You lost the bet and
it wouldn't hurt to pay extra. If you would have saved 300 over 3
years (8 dollars a month), that's 100 over one year, so the extra 100
paid for 15 months is still losing less than you would have gained had
you stayed the whole 3 years.


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"M. Smithers" " wrote in message
...

Hello Dan,

I have experience with Protection One. The reason they will collect their
fee, which they are billing you for, is they gave you a break on
installation, providing you signed a service contract.


There was no installation. The system/their yard signs/window stickers were
present in the house when we signed the lease. I'm assuming the landlord,
who had lived in the house prior to renting it, had it installed. There was
no mention of a "break" for signing a 3 year contract, or of any alternate
time arrangement, in fact there was no mention of the term at all either
when I called to initiate the service, or when the guy came out to "test it"
& get me to sign, even when I told him we were renting & looking to buy in
the near future. Obviously he knew, but said nothing. I assumed it was
month to month. There is no mention of any term on the front of the
contract, it only appears on the back, which in retrospect I should have
taken 45 minutes to read (all 4 legal-size, fine-print boiler plate-ese
pages of it) while the "technician" stood there twiddling his thumbs. This
was my 1st experience with an alarm company, had I known what I know now, I
would have done things differently. I assumed it was like any other
"utility", cable, electric, telephone, gas, etc., maybe you had an
activation charge, but after that you paid monthly for as long as you used
the service & when you were done, you were done. I'm sure all the arm-chair
know-it-alls will claim they ALLLLLLWAYS read all the boiler plate,
regardless of how long & regardless of who's waiting but most people don't,
a fact the businesses rely on. I have an e-mail in to the landlord
inquiring if the new tenants have signed with them. For all I know, the
people before us are still paying for an early termination, the present
tenants are paying for current service, and they expect me to pay until 2009
as well. Is this legal? Well I'm sure their army of attorneys has assured
that it is. Whether it's right is another question.

BTW my wife & I have excellent credit, in the 800's. We own our house
outright and the only consumer debt we have is a credit card we pay in full
every month. We're probably in as good a position as anyone to tell the
*******s to go **** themselves. Which I may well do.


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Dan wrote:
"M. Smithers" " wrote in message
...

Hello Dan,

I have experience with Protection One. The reason they will collect their
fee, which they are billing you for, is they gave you a break on
installation, providing you signed a service contract.


....

... I assumed it was
month to month. There is no mention of any term on the front of the
contract, it only appears on the back, which in retrospect I should have
taken 45 minutes to read (all 4 legal-size, fine-print boiler plate-ese
pages of it) while the "technician" stood there twiddling his thumbs. This
was my 1st experience with an alarm company, had I known what I know now, I
would have done things differently. I assumed it was like any other
"utility", cable, electric, telephone, gas, etc., maybe you had an
activation charge, but after that you paid monthly for as long as you used
the service & when you were done, you were done. I'm sure all the arm-chair
know-it-alls will claim they ALLLLLLWAYS read all the boiler plate,
regardless of how long & regardless of who's waiting but most people don't,
a fact the businesses rely on. ...
... We're probably in as good a position as anyone to tell the
*******s to go **** themselves. Which I may well do.


Certainly understand the problem, but as you say, you assumed something
that wasn't. Whether it's "right" or not unfortunately, has no bearing
on the issue. You're only hope still is whether there's been some
blanket action that you could use that the terms are excessively
onerous. For the chance at most of $700, I'd call the lawyer and get a
phone conversation. I've got a long-time "family lawyer" who I know
won't steer me wrong and is reasonable for the occasional question. If
you're not so lucky, many will give at least one telephone consultation
free or at least cheaply. Oh, besides the AG thing, guess you could try
the BBB and/or other consumer groups and see if you can find out
anything you could use.

Unfortunately, w/ good credit and assets, that actually probably makes
you in much worse position to tell them to shove it as you're worth
pursuing (and the may also think $700 worth pursuing) whereas the
deadbeat who can almost w/ impunity declare bankruptcy w/o doing any
more damage to his credit, etc., than he's already done isn't worth
pursuing because they know they'll get nothing.

If you want to live w/ the hell of a collection agency hounding you for
who knows how many years, go for it. Otherwise, it's probably an
expensive lesson learned, unfortunately.

Wish I had better prognosis...

--
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:51:14 -0700, "Dan" wrote:


"M. Smithers" " wrote in message
...

Hello Dan,

I have experience with Protection One. The reason they will collect their
fee, which they are billing you for, is they gave you a break on
installation, providing you signed a service contract.


There was no installation. The system/their yard signs/window stickers were
present in the house when we signed the lease. I'm assuming the landlord,
who had lived in the house prior to renting it, had it installed. There was
no mention of a "break" for signing a 3 year contract, or of any alternate
time arrangement, in fact there was no mention of the term at all either
when I called to initiate the service, or when the guy came out to "test it"
& get me to sign, even when I told him we were renting & looking to buy in
the near future. Obviously he knew, but said nothing. I assumed it was
month to month. There is no mention of any term on the front of the
contract, it only appears on the back, which in retrospect I should have
taken 45 minutes to read (all 4 legal-size, fine-print boiler plate-ese
pages of it) while the "technician" stood there twiddling his thumbs. This
was my 1st experience with an alarm company, had I known what I know now, I
would have done things differently. I assumed it was like any other
"utility", cable, electric, telephone, gas, etc., maybe you had an
activation charge, but after that you paid monthly for as long as you used
the service & when you were done, you were done. I'm sure all the arm-chair
know-it-alls will claim they ALLLLLLWAYS read all the boiler plate,


I didn't mention the argument before, and I even rebuked someone who
thought you should just accept it and pay what the contract says,
but...in fairness, no one including the know it alls have to claim
that they theselves always read the contract to tell you that YOU
SHOULD have read the contract.

This post is the first I hear that you didn't know the terms of the
contract.

That's another wager, Will I lose out if I don't read the contract, or
will I be ahead because I saved the time it took.

Nevertheless, everything I've said before still applies.

If this company didn't have a month to month price, another fair
measure would be the month to month price of another company in the
area, if it's services are comparable. If it's services are
different, you can take the ration of it's 3-year contract price to
your 3-year contract price and mulitply to get a fair month to month
price for your company, but this is probably not totally necessary
because the question is how much they will settle for, not what is
exactly fair.

They will give it to a collection agency, but doesn't the collection
agecny charge a healthy fee? That is another estiumate of what they
will settle for, the total amount minus what the collection agency
charges. They probably won't object on "principle" because you're not
getting any unpaid service, so that principle isn't involved.

regardless of how long & regardless of who's waiting but most people don't,
a fact the businesses rely on. I have an e-mail in to the landlord
inquiring if the new tenants have signed with them. For all I know, the
people before us are still paying for an early termination, the present
tenants are paying for current service, and they expect me to pay until 2009
as well. Is this legal?


AFAIK, it's legal if there is no law against it, and no binding
adminstrative rule against it. That is not to say that a court will
enforce such a contract. So the result can be the same even if an
action is not "illegal". If you can reach the prior tenants and they
tell you they are still paying, you'll have a great argument. They
should be willing to give you copies of their checks and you give them
copies of their checks as evidence in court, espeically if they don't4
want to testify in your case or you in there's. Or the originals and
if possible the accompanying bank statemennts, if the banks don't have
an easy check printing service. I'm not sure how the authenticity of
paid checks is proven in court, but tangible evidence is a lot better
than hearsay, which is near worthless. And before there is a court
case, you can tell them that you have the whatever you will have to
prove payment for the same time by the prior tenants.

There are a lot of things that are not quite right that are not
addressed specifically in any law. That is what courts are for.
That is not the

Well I'm sure their army of attorneys has assured
that it is.


Dopn't be sure of that. The question is not legality or not, in the
first place, but don't be sure ever signed contract is enforcealbe.
That doesn't mean you should be suing every time a contract might not
be enforceable.

But just be aware of reality.

There was a short thread here tonight about the Duke students and the
bad behaviour of the prosecutor. Angela S. Davis was on the radio
today and she was saying that not disclosing exculpatory evidence is
something that happens every day. It's just that most cases don't
have such obvious holes, like an alibi that the prosecutor ignored. Or
the obviousness that if they didn't rape her, the dna in her won't be
theirs, so what does the DNA show. Also, most people don't have the
money to pursue the issue well enough to find the undislocosed excul
evidenc and the other thing she mentioned.

The same sort of thing happens in every area of our lives, including
contracts.

Whether it's right is another question.

BTW my wife & I have excellent credit, in the 800's. We own our house
outright and the only consumer debt we have is a credit card we pay in full
every month. We're probably in as good a position as anyone to tell the
*******s to go **** themselves. Which I may well do.



That doesn't seem right. You signed it, and they will probably sue
you. I got sued for less, $350?, also a genuine dispute, but because
I was depressed, I didn't pursue my end, or even show up in court,
where I would have lost because I hadn't prepared.

And I think you have it backwards. you have the most to lose, because
you have such good credit. If you can't work out a deal, you have to
see if you can pay now and sue later for what you just paid, and stand
a chance of winning.

Because mostly lethargy and depression, I have somewhat bad credit,
though I didn't pay for my credit score, but I know they wouldn't
increase my credit limit to more than 1000 dollars, even though I have
more than 50,000 dollars in the very bank where my credit card is.
They don'pt care about that, it seems. (although it's impossible to
find someone with any authority who will actually talk to me.
Everything must be by email) But as long as I don't need any credit
for the next 5 years, it won't matter. What I would like is a credit
card with higher than a 1000 dollar limit. I won't get one because I
pay fully at the end of every month too. I'm going to have to get 2
or 3 more cards with a 1000 limit for each one. I hate having more
than 2 cards, and I won't know how many to carry with me. The only
thing I really need credit for now is to rent a car. I think I
offerrd to plunk down 1000 dollars and get the change later, but I
don't think they would work that way, it has to be a credit card.

But you may want more credit than I want in the next 7 years. Did you
move to another rental or did you buy a house? I see, you bought. How
long before you want a bigger house? Or a home improvement or home
equity loan? Or a better credit card?
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:59:40 -0500, dpb wrote:

mm wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:10 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but the AG
thing is a good idea. Thanks.


The AG may be a good idea if the office has somethingb helpful to say,
but if they don't have something helpful, it doesn't mean much. They
are not your lawyer and they mostly know about illegal activities, and
not about all the arguments that will win in court.


That's not the purpose in calling them -- the point is to find out if
their office has made any declaration against a particular firm in
general in the pertinent jurisdiction. It's the kind of thing OP is
hoping for--that, or a class-action suit or some such.


I didnt' want him to perhaps overestimate what you had said.

I said that it's good to call them if they have something helpful to
say, like you mention here, but if they don't have anything, that
doesn't mean he has no alternatives.

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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

I'll have to agree with the other poster who suggested

1) Try to get the new tenant to take over the payments

2) Try to get it transferred to your new home (congrats BTW)

You might see if the previous tenants are/were paying for it at the same
time you were. You might have a case if they were charging twice for the
same service. And FYI, just because something's in a contract, doesn't
always make it legal (though I'm guessing it probably is).

TV/radio stations often have a consumer advocate, who loves to bust big
companies who take advantage of the little people. Contact them.

Warn the new tenant, so he doesn't fall into the same trap.

If it's not too late (and if it's legal), remove the alarm company's
stickers so no one else falls for it.

Good luck.




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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

"Kitep" wrote in message
...
I'll have to agree with the other poster who suggested

1) Try to get the new tenant to take over the payments


Thanks for the reply. I don't see that happening, but I have asked the
landlord if he knows if they have activated the system


2) Try to get it transferred to your new home (congrats BTW)


Thanks, If I had been thinking, that's what I would have done.
Unfortunately, the new house had a system by ADT, so I just activated that.


You might see if the previous tenants are/were paying for it at the same
time you were. You might have a case if they were charging twice for the
same service. And FYI, just because something's in a contract, doesn't
always make it legal (though I'm guessing it probably is).


Agreed.


TV/radio stations often have a consumer advocate, who loves to bust big
companies who take advantage of the little people. Contact them.


Not a bad idea, especially if it turns out the new renters are also paying.



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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

Dan wrote:
"Kitep" wrote in message
...
I'll have to agree with the other poster who suggested

1) Try to get the new tenant to take over the payments


Thanks for the reply. I don't see that happening, but I have asked the
landlord if he knows if they have activated the system

2) Try to get it transferred to your new home (congrats BTW)


Thanks, If I had been thinking, that's what I would have done.
Unfortunately, the new house had a system by ADT, so I just activated that.

You might see if the previous tenants are/were paying for it at the same
time you were. You might have a case if they were charging twice for the
same service. And FYI, just because something's in a contract, doesn't
always make it legal (though I'm guessing it probably is).


Agreed.

TV/radio stations often have a consumer advocate, who loves to bust big
companies who take advantage of the little people. Contact them.


Not a bad idea, especially if it turns out the new renters are also paying.



You also might see if your state has a consumer protection office and
contact them. Also the Better Business Bureau may help.

Lou

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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

"Lou" wrote in message
...
You also might see if your state has a consumer protection office and
contact them. Also the Better Business Bureau may help.

Lou


Thanks, Lou

Dan


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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

dpb wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we
had Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months
into the 3 year contract. They are billing us for the remainder
of the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to
pay for service we will not be using. Has anyone had any
experience terminating such a contract early, particularly with
Protection One?


I have no such experience; however, I know that similar contracts -
those calling for a service to be rendered in the future - have not
been upheld when the service cannot be provided for any
reason...you dying, you moving...


My understanding has been those have been for service, not
cancellation charges.


Yes. OP said,

"They are billing us for the remainder
of the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to
pay for service we will not be using."

See?

To OP: my best advice is to tell them to go take a flying one.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico



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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

On Jun 19, 9:41 pm, mm wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:51:14 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

"M. Smithers" " wrote in message
...


Hello Dan,


I have experience with Protection One. The reason they will collect their
fee, which they are billing you for, is they gave you a break on
installation, providing you signed a service contract.


There was no installation. The system/their yard signs/window stickers were
present in the house when we signed the lease. I'm assuming the landlord,
who had lived in the house prior to renting it, had it installed. There was
no mention of a "break" for signing a 3 year contract, or of any alternate
time arrangement, in fact there was no mention of the term at all either
when I called to initiate the service, or when the guy came out to "test it"
& get me to sign, even when I told him we were renting & looking to buy in
the near future. Obviously he knew, but said nothing. I assumed it was
month to month. There is no mention of any term on the front of the
contract, it only appears on the back, which in retrospect I should have
taken 45 minutes to read (all 4 legal-size, fine-print boiler plate-ese
pages of it) while the "technician" stood there twiddling his thumbs. This
was my 1st experience with an alarm company, had I known what I know now, I
would have done things differently. I assumed it was like any other
"utility", cable, electric, telephone, gas, etc., maybe you had an
activation charge, but after that you paid monthly for as long as you used
the service & when you were done, you were done. I'm sure all the arm-chair
know-it-alls will claim they ALLLLLLWAYS read all the boiler plate,


I didn't mention the argument before, and I even rebuked someone who
thought you should just accept it and pay what the contract says,
but...in fairness, no one including the know it alls have to claim
that they theselves always read the contract to tell you that YOU
SHOULD have read the contract.

This post is the first I hear that you didn't know the terms of the
contract.

That's another wager, Will I lose out if I don't read the contract, or
will I be ahead because I saved the time it took.

Nevertheless, everything I've said before still applies.

If this company didn't have a month to month price, another fair
measure would be the month to month price of another company in the
area, if it's services are comparable. If it's services are
different, you can take the ration of it's 3-year contract price to
your 3-year contract price and mulitply to get a fair month to month
price for your company, but this is probably not totally necessary
because the question is how much they will settle for, not what is
exactly fair.

They will give it to a collection agency, but doesn't the collection
agecny charge a healthy fee? That is another estiumate of what they
will settle for, the total amount minus what the collection agency
charges. They probably won't object on "principle" because you're not
getting any unpaid service, so that principle isn't involved.

regardless of how long & regardless of who's waiting but most people don't,
a fact the businesses rely on. I have an e-mail in to the landlord
inquiring if the new tenants have signed with them. For all I know, the
people before us are still paying for an early termination, the present
tenants are paying for current service, and they expect me to pay until 2009
as well. Is this legal?


AFAIK, it's legal if there is no law against it, and no binding
adminstrative rule against it. That is not to say that a court will
enforce such a contract. So the result can be the same even if an
action is not "illegal". If you can reach the prior tenants and they
tell you they are still paying, you'll have a great argument. They
should be willing to give you copies of their checks and you give them
copies of their checks as evidence in court, espeically if they don't4
want to testify in your case or you in there's. Or the originals and
if possible the accompanying bank statemennts, if the banks don't have
an easy check printing service. I'm not sure how the authenticity of
paid checks is proven in court, but tangible evidence is a lot better
than hearsay, which is near worthless. And before there is a court
case, you can tell them that you have the whatever you will have to
prove payment for the same time by the prior tenants.

There are a lot of things that are not quite right that are not
addressed specifically in any law. That is what courts are for.
That is not the

Well I'm sure their army of attorneys has assured
that it is.


Dopn't be sure of that. The question is not legality or not, in the
first place, but don't be sure ever signed contract is enforcealbe.
That doesn't mean you should be suing every time a contract might not
be enforceable.

But just be aware of reality.

There was a short thread here tonight about the Duke students and the
bad behaviour of the prosecutor. Angela S. Davis was on the radio
today and she was saying that not disclosing exculpatory evidence is
something that happens every day. It's just that most cases don't
have such obvious holes, like an alibi that the prosecutor ignored. Or
the obviousness that if they didn't rape her, the dna in her won't be
theirs, so what does the DNA show. Also, most people don't have the
money to pursue the issue well enough to find the undislocosed excul
evidenc and the other thing she mentioned.


And now you got me really laughing. You believe and find credible
what Angela Davis has to say about our court system? Why not just
ask Fidel Castro or Hugo Chavez?

As for the question at hand, it appears to me that Dan came here
asking a very simple and relevant question. And that was whether
anyone had any direct experience dealing with this company in a
similar situation. Which is valid, because if he knows the company
has settled for say 1/2 with others in a similar situation, that's
very useful to know. Apparently, no one has the experience.







The same sort of thing happens in every area of our lives, including
contracts.

Whether it's right is another question.


BTW my wife & I have excellent credit, in the 800's. We own our house
outright and the only consumer debt we have is a credit card we pay in full
every month. We're probably in as good a position as anyone to tell the
*******s to go **** themselves. Which I may well do.


That doesn't seem right. You signed it, and they will probably sue
you. I got sued for less, $350?, also a genuine dispute, but because
I was depressed, I didn't pursue my end, or even show up in court,
where I would have lost because I hadn't prepared.

And I think you have it backwards. you have the most to lose, because
you have such good credit. If you can't work out a deal, you have to
see if you can pay now and sue later for what you just paid, and stand
a chance of winning.

Because mostly lethargy and depression, I have somewhat bad credit,
though I didn't pay for my credit score, but I know they wouldn't
increase my credit limit to more than 1000 dollars, even though I have
more than 50,000 dollars in the very bank where my credit card is.
They don'pt care about that, it seems. (although it's impossible to
find someone with any authority who will actually talk to me.
Everything must be by email) But as long as I don't need any credit
for the next 5 years, it won't matter. What I would like is a credit
card with higher than a 1000 dollar limit. I won't get one because I
pay fully at the end of every month too. I'm going to have to get 2
or 3 more cards with a 1000 limit for each one. I hate having more
than 2 cards, and I won't know how many to carry with me. The only
thing I really need credit for now is to rent a car. I think I
offerrd to plunk down 1000 dollars and get the change later, but I
don't think they would work that way, it has to be a credit card.

But you may want more credit than I want in the next 7 years. Did you
move to another rental or did you buy a house? I see, you bought. How
long before you want a bigger house? Or a home improvement or home
equity loan? Or a better credit card?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -





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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

dpb wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we
had Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months
into the 3 year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of
the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay
for service we will not be using. Has anyone had any experience
terminating such a contract early, particularly with Protection One?


I have no such experience; however, I know that similar contracts -
those calling for a service to be rendered in the future - have not
been upheld when the service cannot be provided for any reason...you
dying, you moving...


My understanding has been those have been for service, not cancellation
charges. I still think it depends on the terms of the contract and his
best bet is to ask either local legal advice or his State AG's office if
there's an out for these types of agreements...

--

Why would the AG be interested?

The usual deal with the "big box" alarm companies is that they advertise
"protect your house and family for $99". Obviously they can't do that
so they require that you enter a contract so that you actually pay for
the system over the contract term. Nothing illegal about that. The
contract contains specific language that needs to be fulfilled. In this
case they want to be paid to cover the deferred cost of the installation.

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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

dpb wrote:
mm wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:10 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but
the AG thing is a good idea. Thanks.


The AG may be a good idea if the office has somethingb helpful to say,
but if they don't have something helpful, it doesn't mean much. They
are not your lawyer and they mostly know about illegal activities, and
not about all the arguments that will win in court.


That's not the purpose in calling them -- the point is to find out if
their office has made any declaration against a particular firm in
general in the pertinent jurisdiction. It's the kind of thing OP is
hoping for--that, or a class-action suit or some such.

--

But what did the company do wrong? He didn't pay for the alarm up front
(thats the "all this for $99 commercial") so the deal is that he has to
pay for the deferred installation cost over the 3 year contract period.
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

George wrote:
dpb wrote:
dadiOH wrote:
Dan wrote:
We recently moved from a rental house in the Seattle area where we
had Protection One alarm service. We were approximately 15 months
into the 3 year contract. They are billing us for the remainder of
the term, nearly $700. Needless to say, I would prefer not to pay
for service we will not be using. Has anyone had any experience
terminating such a contract early, particularly with Protection One?

I have no such experience; however, I know that similar contracts -
those calling for a service to be rendered in the future - have not
been upheld when the service cannot be provided for any reason...you
dying, you moving...


My understanding has been those have been for service, not
cancellation charges. I still think it depends on the terms of the
contract and his best bet is to ask either local legal advice or his
State AG's office if there's an out for these types of agreements...

--

Why would the AG be interested?


Individually, he isn't -- the point is whether the AG's _office_ has had
enough complaints there's been a general action or ruling that makes
such cancellation clauses illegitimate in OP's state.

--
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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

George wrote:

The usual deal with the "big box" alarm companies is that they
advertise "protect your house and family for $99". Obviously they
can't do that
so they require that you enter a contract so that you actually pay
for the system over the contract term. Nothing illegal about that.
The contract contains specific language that needs to be fulfilled.
In this case they want to be paid to cover the deferred cost of the
installation.


As OP explained later in the thread, he was a renter and the alarm
system was in place when he rented. He has been paying only for
service and has no obligation to pay for future service that is not
rendered. Any unfulfilled obligation to the alarm company for
installation lies with whoever arranged for installation originally.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico



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Default Terminating an alarm company contract early

George wrote:
dpb wrote:
mm wrote:
On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:04:10 -0700, "Dan" wrote:

It's probably doesn't make financial sense to hire an attorney, but
the AG thing is a good idea. Thanks.

The AG may be a good idea if the office has somethingb helpful to say,
but if they don't have something helpful, it doesn't mean much. They
are not your lawyer and they mostly know about illegal activities, and
not about all the arguments that will win in court.


That's not the purpose in calling them -- the point is to find out if
their office has made any declaration against a particular firm in
general in the pertinent jurisdiction. It's the kind of thing OP is
hoping for--that, or a class-action suit or some such.

--

But what did the company do wrong? He didn't pay for the alarm up front
(thats the "all this for $99 commercial") so the deal is that he has to
pay for the deferred installation cost over the 3 year contract period.


I didn't say the company did anything wrong -- OP asked for options to
try to minimize his out-of-pocket cancellation charges. I told him
where there might be some relief _IF_ (and that's the proverbial "big
if") there had been some judgment in his state that the particular form
of cancellation clause had been deemed excessive previously or wasn't
compliant w/ state law/regulation. Some have been, whether this
particular one has or not would be the question. It's a faint hope, for
OP, certainly. The contract terms weren't supplied so whether it is
actually a deferred installation charge or not isn't known for
sure--reasonable hypothesis, certainly.

I also told OP I figured he was stuck but that was really only way he
could likely hope for a basis on which to try to refuse to pay.
Otherwise, about his only hope is the option of trying to see if they'll
accept a partial payment or get the successor tenant to pick it up for
him (but that undoubtedly wouldn't get him relieved from the obligation
only have the other guy pay it for him as long as he so chose to do so).

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