Hi all,

Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common), copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box it has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?
I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who as done
this before.


Cheers,

John

In article .com, Greg White wrote:
Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common),

White is neutral. Not "common". That's a DC term.

copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box it has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?

NO!
NO!
NO!

The red and black wires are what give you the 240 volts. Connect the two of
them together, and you've just short-circuited a 240V circuit. If you're
lucky, the breaker will trip before anything catches on fire.

240V devices don't use the neutral (white) wire at all.

The correct hookup is black to one hot terminal, red to the other hot
terminal, bare to the ground terminal.

White connects to nothing. You don't even need it.

I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who as done
this before.

No offense intended, but....

Why would you think this is right? Please, please, please have "someone who
has done this before" do it for you. It's clear that you don't know what
you're doing, well enough to do it correctly or safely.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jun 18, 4:15 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .com, Greg White wrote:

Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common),

White is neutral. Not "common". That's a DC term.

copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box it has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?

NO!
NO!
NO!

The red and black wires are what give you the 240 volts. Connect the two of
them together, and you've just short-circuited a 240V circuit. If you're
lucky, the breaker will trip before anything catches on fire.

240V devices don't use the neutral (white) wire at all.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Tend to agree:

Although might word it as "Many 240 volt devices do not need the
neutral (white) at all."

Just thinking about 230/240 volt items in this house.

No neutral:
Hot water heater.
Bench saw.
Electric baseboard heaters.
A few 230 portable power tools (I make sure they are grounded
though!).
A plug in 230 volt welder.

230 volt items that do also use neutral.
Cooking stove.
The clothes dryer; although this varies from model to model.

A proper ground is essential for all.

These people who work on the "Connect the red wire to this and the
white wire to that ............ etc.(and worse. e.g. connecting the
red and black together!!!!!) basis"; clearly do not understand what
they are doing. One danger is that a they may just get it to work, but
unsafely!
The OP should make sure that there is no neutral required by the
equipment; if it is, the connection box mentioned may not have
sufficient terminals; or 'the neutrals should be connected through',
in the Cutler Hammer box, using an approved method.
BTW insurance companies are not impressed by fires and electrical
hazards that may be due to improper wiring!
Do implore; get someone who 'understands' 230/115 volt AC wiring to at
least assist!

In article .com, terry wrote:

230 volt items that do also use neutral.
Cooking stove.
The clothes dryer; although this varies from model to model.

Those are 240/120 devices, not 240.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

OK I got it now,

I have the wrong cable.
The same box is he
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...A-1870D54B0BA3
I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.
Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground since my bare copper
ground is thinner than the white?

Cheers,

John

Yes, just mark it green at both ends, although all four conductors should be
exactly the same gauge



"Greg White" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK I got it now,

I have the wrong cable.
The same box is he
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...A-1870D54B0BA3
I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.
Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground since my bare copper
ground is thinner than the white?

Cheers,

John

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . com, Greg White wrote:
OK I got it now,

I have the wrong cable.

Not necessarily -- see below.

The same box is he
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...EA-1870D54B0BA
3
I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.

What's shown in the illustrations at that link is actually individual
conductors. Good luck finding premises-wiring cable that's red/black/green.

You can use black/white/bare, just mark the white wire red at each end.

Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground

No. Code requires the grounding conductor to have either no insulation, or
continuous green insulation. It doesn't meet Code to re-mark a white wire
green. The only exception is conductors larger than 6 gauge, which you
probably don't have.

since my bare copper ground is thinner than the white?

You sure about that? It should say on the cable sheath exactly what size the
conductors are.

What gauge are the wires, and what is the rating of the breaker you're
planning to connect them to?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

It's permitted in a multi wire cable, which is what he's using




"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Greg, you're looking at two different things. The orange stuff is a 10-2
Romex cable, but the things with the red, black, and green conductors are
whips, which are short lengths of weatherproof flex with the three
conductors prefabricated with connectors



"Greg White" wrote in message
ups.com...
OK I got it now,

I have the wrong cable.
The same box is he
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...A-1870D54B0BA3
I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.
Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground since my bare copper
ground is thinner than the white?

Cheers,

John

On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:43:27 -0000, Greg White
wrote:

OK I got it now,

I have the wrong cable.
The same box is he
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...A-1870D54B0BA3
I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.
Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground since my bare copper
ground is thinner than the white?

I don't understand their stupid warning on the URL: " You can prepare
the wiring for hook-up, but only a skilled contractor should complete
the high-voltage wiring. Inexperience can cause electrical shock or
damage to your equipment or property. "

I've gotten a hundred shocks from 110AC to 2,000 volts in a tv, to
50,000 volts from a spark plug wire. None of them are as likely to
kill as the 220 from the this wiring, but they only mention
"electrical shock", not death.

Cheers,

John

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
It's permitted in a multi wire cable, which is what he's using

Yes, "where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
qualified persons service the installation." [Article 250.119(B)]

That doesn't apply to *any* residential installation.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Where does it specify that it doesn't apply to any residential installation?
My interpretation is: Who has more control than a homeowner to assure that
only qualified people work on their equipment. That being said, Greg White
in considering connecting red wires to black wires, does defeat my argument


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
It's permitted in a multi wire cable, which is what he's using

Yes, "where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
qualified persons service the installation." [Article 250.119(B)]

That doesn't apply to *any* residential installation.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Where does it specify that it doesn't apply to any residential installation?

"Where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified
persons service the installation."

The Code explicitly defines "qualified person" as "one who has skills and
knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installation and has received safety training on the hazards
involved."

In any residence, the installation can be serviced by the homeowner, his
half-wit brother-in-law, his alcoholic buddy from work, the neighbor who
"knows all about it" but whose actual experience doesn't go beyond changing
light bulbs, etc. etc. etc. There is *no* assurance whatever that unqualified
persons will not service the installation.

My interpretation is: Who has more control than a homeowner to assure that
only qualified people work on their equipment.

Oh, I dunno, a factory foreman or a building supervisor, perhaps?

That being said, Greg White
in considering connecting red wires to black wires, does defeat my argument

Well, there is that, too....


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
It's permitted in a multi wire cable, which is what he's using

Yes, "where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
qualified persons service the installation." [Article 250.119(B)]

That doesn't apply to *any* residential installation.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

The two red wires go on one side of the box, the two blacks on
the other side. When you put the connector handle in, the red
should connect to the red. The black connects to the black.

Your outdoor unit probably does not use a white wire, so that one
gets wire nutted and folded over.

The exposed metal connecter at the bottom of the disconnect
connects the green or bare wires.

I've been installing central AC for seven years. I think you're
not right.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Greg White" wrote in message
oups.com...
: Hi all,
:
: Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air
system
: (230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
: red(hot), black(hot), white(common), copper (grnd). Now I am
: installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box
it has
: screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1
out to
: the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I
have 3
: in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together
on one
: side and the white common the other?
: I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who
as done
: this before.
:
:
: Cheers,
:
: John
:

Use the bare for a ground, even if it is thinner. If you start
changing colors around, you'll confuse the next guy who works on
the device. Use the bare for a ground.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Greg White" wrote in message
ups.com...
: OK I got it now,
:
: I have the wrong cable.
: The same box is he
:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cf...A-1870D54B0BA3
: I should have gotten the red,black,green cable.
: Would it be possible to use the whit as a ground since my bare
copper
: ground is thinner than the white?
:
: Cheers,
:
: John
:

In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:
Use the bare for a ground, even if it is thinner. If you start
changing colors around, you'll confuse the next guy who works on
the device. Use the bare for a ground.

Hold on there a minute. If the circuit is 30A or less, it's a Code violation
to use an equipment grounding conductor that's smaller than the ungrounded
conductors. (Table 250.122 -- minimum size grounding conductor is 14AWG
copper for a 15A circuit, 12AWG at 20A, 10AWG at 30A.) At 40A and higher, it's
permitted. We don't know yet what size conductors the OP has. I asked him
yesterday, but he hasn't answered.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jun 19, 11:39 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote:

Use the bare for a ground, even if it is thinner. If you start
changing colors around, you'll confuse the next guy who works on
the device. Use the bare for a ground.

Hold on there a minute. If the circuit is 30A or less, it's a Code violation
to use an equipment grounding conductor that's smaller than the ungrounded
conductors. (Table 250.122 -- minimum size grounding conductor is 14AWG
copper for a 15A circuit, 12AWG at 20A, 10AWG at 30A.) At 40A and higher, it's
permitted. We don't know yet what size conductors the OP has. I asked him
yesterday, but he hasn't answered.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Good point; he may have acquired some #14 AWG (Red, black, white and
bare ground) typically used for domestic lighting circuits or low
capacity 15 amp maximum outlets???? No good for a 20 amp or 30 amp
circuit!
Do wish the OP would get someone to assist who knows how to do the
work safely and to code.
The idea of using the wrong colour especially for ground instead of
neutral is 'wacky'. It might not cause an immediate problem but God
help the electrician or do it yourself-er who tries to understand what
has been 'hooked up' some ten or fifteen years from now.

Your interpretation is probably what they intended, but I'd still maintain
from my experience as a contractor having worked in hospitals, nursing
homes, factories, office buildings, etc. , the group of mutants that you
list, are indeed the same ones I've seen







"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Where does it specify that it doesn't apply to any residential
installation?

"Where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
qualified
persons service the installation."

The Code explicitly defines "qualified person" as "one who has skills and
knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical
equipment and installation and has received safety training on the hazards
involved."

In any residence, the installation can be serviced by the homeowner, his
half-wit brother-in-law, his alcoholic buddy from work, the neighbor who
"knows all about it" but whose actual experience doesn't go beyond
changing
light bulbs, etc. etc. etc. There is *no* assurance whatever that
unqualified
persons will not service the installation.

My interpretation is: Who has more control than a homeowner to assure that
only qualified people work on their equipment.

Oh, I dunno, a factory foreman or a building supervisor, perhaps?

That being said, Greg White
in considering connecting red wires to black wires, does defeat my
argument

Well, there is that, too....


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
It's permitted in a multi wire cable, which is what he's using

Yes, "where conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only
qualified persons service the installation." [Article 250.119(B)]

That doesn't apply to *any* residential installation.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.net...
In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:
Yes, just mark it green at both ends,

Only if it's larger than 6AWG, otherwise not permitted. Code requires
continuous green for 6 & smaller.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In his original post, he says he has a "12 gauge line"


"terry" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jun 19, 11:39 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Use the bare for a ground, even if it is thinner. If you start
changing colors around, you'll confuse the next guy who works on
the device. Use the bare for a ground.

Hold on there a minute. If the circuit is 30A or less, it's a Code
violation
to use an equipment grounding conductor that's smaller than the
ungrounded
conductors. (Table 250.122 -- minimum size grounding conductor is 14AWG
copper for a 15A circuit, 12AWG at 20A, 10AWG at 30A.) At 40A and higher,
it's
permitted. We don't know yet what size conductors the OP has. I asked him
yesterday, but he hasn't answered.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Good point; he may have acquired some #14 AWG (Red, black, white and
bare ground) typically used for domestic lighting circuits or low
capacity 15 amp maximum outlets???? No good for a 20 amp or 30 amp
circuit!
Do wish the OP would get someone to assist who knows how to do the
work safely and to code.
The idea of using the wrong colour especially for ground instead of
neutral is 'wacky'. It might not cause an immediate problem but God
help the electrician or do it yourself-er who tries to understand what
has been 'hooked up' some ten or fifteen years from now.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
Your interpretation is probably what they intended, but I'd still maintain
from my experience as a contractor having worked in hospitals, nursing
homes, factories, office buildings, etc. , the group of mutants that you
list, are indeed the same ones I've seen

LOL -- my experience observing the quality of commercial installations is
limited to under-the-floor power wiring in computer rooms, where everything
I've ever seen has been first-rate work. I'm sure you've seen quite a bit of
stuff that was second-rate, to be charitable.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
In his original post, he says he has a "12 gauge line"

Oh, did he? I guess I missed that. Leaves me wondering where he bought 12AWG
cable with a 14AWG (or smaller) ground -- AFAIK, that stuff hasn't been
manufactured for years. I'm thinking that he's just mistaken about the size of
the grounding conductor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

You don't need the neutral on an AC unit. I can't imagine one that runs on
20A either.

--
Steve Barker







"Greg White" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi all,

Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common), copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box it has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?
I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who as done
this before.


Cheers,

John

Greg White wrote:
Hi all,

Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common), copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to a disconnect box (Cutler Hammer). In the box it has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?
I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who as done
this before.


Cheers,

John


Still haven't learned have you?

On Jun 18, 2:00 pm, Greg White wrote:
Hi all,

Just a general electrical question, I am installing central air system
(230V)and have got a 12 gauge line to the breaker 20A, 2 pole
red(hot), black(hot), white(common), copper (grnd). Now I am
installing it to adisconnectbox(Cutler Hammer). In theboxit has
screw connections for the 2 ground (1 in from the panel and 1 out to
the central air) and then 4 connections (2 in and 2 out) but I have 3
in and 3 out wires. Do I connect the red and black hot together on one
side and the white common the other?
I think this is right but just need assurance from someone who as done
this before.


I am not giving the OP a hard time. DIY is a lot of learn as you go.
I see a post like this and I have to joke a little without directing
it at the OP.


Put the pliers down and step away from the disconnect!