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#1
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Shocking Shower
Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat.
They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. |
#2
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Shocking Shower
Stormin Mormon wrote:
.... They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/ separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with only a general description not possible to tell much specific. Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are. I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely there's a good electrician-type in the church that can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a problem if a needed ground is missing. -- |
#3
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Shocking Shower
On Jun 11, 10:18 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When they put in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive a rod into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed. The good news -- the kids will take fast showers. |
#4
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Shocking Shower
dpb wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote: ... They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/ separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with only a general description not possible to tell much specific. If the plumbing is accessable it'd probably be wise to bond the water supply pipes to the shower valve to the drain pipe before letting anyone use the shower again, then do the overall grounding job properly ASAP. I'm no lawyer, and never even played one on TV, but since you've told the world about your knowing about this problem in a format which will take forever to disappear, you'd best be carefull lest someone slips in the shower, breaks their spinal column and then decides to go after the cchurch for all it's worth, claiming that "the shock" made them jerk and fall. Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight. Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are. I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely there's a good electrician-type in the church that can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a problem if a needed ground is missing. -- |
#5
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Shocking Shower
On Jun 11, 8:02 am, dpb wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote: ... They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/ separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with only a general description not possible to tell much specific. Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are. I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely there's a good electrician-type in the church that can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a problem if a needed ground is missing. -- All- Some comments & more questions than answers....... Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a problem in the furnace itself? the resistance from the grounding system to the earth is too high? & the "ground path" from the grounding system to plumbing, instead of grounding the shower plumbing is actually "hotting it" but isn't the real problem in the furnace? some how is the power leaking over to furnace frame & thereby "hotting" the furnace frame & ground? now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is trying to find it's way back to earth.......the shower plumbing & the showerers are part of this ad hoc path. shouldn't the fault (nsulation? wire contacting bare metal?) in the furnace be looked into? maybe a fault in the blower motor? Grounding is part of the issue but isn't the source of the voltage of equal importance? cheers Bob |
#6
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Shocking Shower
I'm thinking a neutral problem. If th ere was a good neutral,
then the white would carry all the wire. I've been wondering if it would create a different effect in a boys versus a girls shower? The one which is shocking is the girls, and they don't like it. I can just imagine in the boys "Kewl! Hey everyone come over and check this out!" -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Pat" wrote in message ups.com... : : I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When they put : in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive a rod : into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed. : : The good news -- the kids will take fast showers. : |
#7
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Shocking Shower
I was thinking also a jumper from hot to cold pipes at the
shower. The dielectric connection reduces corrosion. But it doesn't drain power through the cold water inlet. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. wrote in message ... : : You should have a ground rod preferably 2, connected to the ground bus : in the panel. You should also bond all the metal piping including a : jumper around the water heater. |
#8
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Shocking Shower
Pat wrote:
On Jun 11, 10:18 am, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . I agree with dpb that it sounds like a ground problem. When they put in the new furnace they probably disconnected something. Drive a rod into the ground and ground to that until you can get it fixed. Actually, that makes me think of something should have mentioned previously -- perhaps the new installation w/ the dielectric union on the gas line broke a previous ground path. Jumper it w/ a ground and see if it changes symptoms. As for the proposed "solution", that _may_ be the right solution, but as noted previously, w/o knowing the actual distribution what is right and adequate isn't possible to say for sure. One thing to be careful of in such a situation is the possibility of a ground loop existing and having a significant potential between various ground points. In that case it is possible to get oneself across this w/ a possible significant current flow which obviously is a bad deal...that's why I recommended an experienced electrician take a look at the installation. -- |
#9
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Shocking Shower
Water supply bonded to drain, I did think of that. I'll have to
go back and see if the pipes are accessable. My guess is probably not. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message ... : : If the plumbing is accessable it'd probably be wise to bond the water : supply pipes to the shower valve to the drain pipe before letting anyone : use the shower again, then do the overall grounding job properly ASAP. : : I'm no lawyer, and never even played one on TV, but since you've told : the world about your knowing about this problem in a format which will : take forever to disappear, you'd best be carefull lest someone slips in : the shower, breaks their spinal column and then decides to go after the : cchurch for all it's worth, claiming that "the shock" made them jerk and : fall. : : Jeff : -- |
#10
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Shocking Shower
The shower building is fairly remote, not that makes a whopping
lot of difference. A bad neutral can happen even in apartment building. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. : dpb wrote: : : You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/ : separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with : only a general description not possible to tell much specific. : |
#11
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Shocking Shower
On 2007-06-11, BobK207 wrote:
Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a problem in the furnace itself? There's definitely a problem in the furnace or the circuit feeding it. now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is trying to find it's way back to earth....... Slight clarification: the juice is trying to find its way back to the secondary winding of the transformer powering the service. Because of a fault, the normal return path using the neutral conductors is now paralleled by a path involving the shower plumbing and probably the earth. Because of some problem with the EGC (equipment grounding conductor) system, the fault did not hit the desired "low-impedance return path" to the service which would trip the breaker. Return paths using the earth will almost never be low enough impedance to trip a breaker. Cheers, Wayne |
#12
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Shocking Shower
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. There could be a short from the hot or neutral, or the ground could be bad. Could be any damned thing. I don't think you could actually feel 5v; but perhaps there is really more than that. Go to the nearest outlet and test H-N, H-G, N-G. Assuming they are all correct, test them all to the drain and to the shower handle. Then test from the gas pipe to a ground etc. etc. until you isolate where there is unexpected voltage. If you plumbing is plastic, I don't see how any voltage is getting to the shower, unless you have really really really hard water. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . |
#13
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Shocking Shower
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:13 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. Why is the furnace on at summer camp? Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet? Using a heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be no heat but what the sun provides. I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix this or not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job their installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix it. "I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part of your original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets hurt" I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? |
#14
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Shocking Shower
The furnace is seeking ground through the gas piping system to the water
heater and perhaps from there to the showers. Ground the water system with an 8 foot earth rod and the neutral buss from the service panel. Read UEC #250.50 [Grounding Systems]. Check the neutral at the appliance and make sure it has both, a separate load carrying neutral and earth bond [ground.] Be sure the panel / sub -panel both are grounded as well. Check and tighten all electrical connections, pay particularly attention to the grounding system. -- Zyp "mm" wrote in message ... On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 10:18:13 -0400, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. Why is the furnace on at summer camp? Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet? Using a heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be no heat but what the sun provides. I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix this or not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job their installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix it. "I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part of your original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets hurt" I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? |
#15
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Shocking Shower
The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. Through the air. AC at 60hz acts like a radio wave in that it can induce a voltage in a conductor near by. Any wiring, motor or transformer will radiate electromagnetic radio waves. The plumbing is the antenna that is being induced. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? The felt voltage is not coming directly from the wiring. The shower head is the hot lead of the voltage source and the wet ground or drain is the other conductor. Electricity has to have a path to be felt. 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? Short the two leads. The shower head and the floor drain. |
#16
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Shocking Shower
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or are they bonded together? Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel to the main panel? Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to the main water line. Any chance of getting some pictures of everything? |
#17
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Shocking Shower
The furnace was originally installed so they would not have to
drain the pipes in the winter. We do zero F now and again, and pipes do freeze. From what I could see, the furnace guys did fine. I think it's the electrician who made the run of wire to the shower building that didn't put in adequate neutral / ground. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "mm" wrote in message ... : : Why is the furnace on at summer camp? : : Because the shower makes them cold when they get out wet? Using a : heater is no way to rough it. At summer camp there should be no heat : but what the sun provides. : : I think, whether they still have a legal responsibility to fix this or : not, that the furnace company should know what a rotten job their : installer did, and that they are in the best position to fix it. : : "I thought you would want to come out and fix this." "As part of your : original [uncompleted] installation". "Before some child gets hurt" : |
#18
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Shocking Shower
The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I checked.
Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and they do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Zephyr" wrote in message news:9_qdnaKa9voLG_DbnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@championbroa dband.com... : The furnace is seeking ground through the gas piping system to the water : heater and perhaps from there to the showers. : : Ground the water system with an 8 foot earth rod and the neutral buss from : the service panel. Read UEC #250.50 [Grounding Systems]. Check the neutral : at the appliance and make sure it has both, a separate load carrying neutral : and earth bond [ground.] Be sure the panel / sub -panel both are grounded : as well. Check and tighten all electrical connections, pay particularly : attention to the grounding system. : : -- : Zyp : |
#19
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Shocking Shower
"John Grabowski" wrote in message
... : : : : Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or are they : bonded together? CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I don't know. Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel : to the main panel? CY: There is a conductor. But the fellow who runs the camp didn't seem at all pleased with the electrician. So, it may not be good. Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good : ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to the main water : line. CY: The panel in the shower building has no signs of ground. The wire goes out to a cement box, which sits maybe 6 feet from the building. I see no connection from the panel to the water line. : : Any chance of getting some pictures of everything? : CY: That is a very wise question. I don't have a digital camera, but been considering getting one. |
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Shocking Shower
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Three or four years ago, my church set up a summer camp retreat. They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than the very basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand consulting other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected. So, a bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are diddling about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there is any possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that could vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200 and electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the cost of a licensed electrician. |
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Shocking Shower
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:06:16 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: The furnace was originally installed so they would not have to drain the pipes in the winter. We do zero F now and again, and pipes do freeze. From what I could see, the furnace guys did fine. I think it's the electrician who made the run of wire to the shower building that didn't put in adequate neutral / ground. I'd call him then, and say the same sort of thing. So that he wants to come out at no charge and fix the mess he left. You're not using the furnace now so he's bound to be nearby sometime in the next month, and it will take him 10 minutes. |
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Shocking Shower
On 2007-06-11, Stormin Mormon wrote:
1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? Good question. Note that in order for someone to be shocked as described, there must be a double fault. That is, a live conductor must be energizing some metal parts, which are themselves not properly bonded. If you ensure that all the metal parts (hot and cold water pipe, gas pipe, furnace frame) are properly bonded to the EGC in the building service, then a fault in the furnace should trip the breaker. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? If there is a return path that parallels the proper neutral path, some current will always flow on it. So a person will get a mild shock when standing on the shower floor and touching the plumbing because they complete a circuit, one that is fairly high resistance compared to the "usual" return path. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. This in and of itself will not help you, and under bizarre circumstances it could make the problem worse. You having a bonding problem, not an earthing problem. Earthing provides protection in the case of overvoltage; bonding provides protection in the case of accidentally energizing metal parts. Cheers, Wayne |
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Shocking Shower
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... "John Grabowski" wrote in message ... : : : : Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or are they : bonded together? CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I don't know. Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel : to the main panel? CY: There is a conductor. But the fellow who runs the camp didn't seem at all pleased with the electrician. So, it may not be good. Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good : ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to the main water : line. CY: The panel in the shower building has no signs of ground. The wire goes out to a cement box, which sits maybe 6 feet from the building. I see no connection from the panel to the water line. : : Any chance of getting some pictures of everything? : CY: That is a very wise question. I don't have a digital camera, but been considering getting one. I'm thinking that you need to get an experienced electrician to look over the electrical system. There is obviously a hazard to human life. This is not a situation for a do-it-yourselfer to play around with. You need to make things right and soon! Get a professional electrician now! What ever the cost it is still cheaper than a human life. |
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Shocking Shower
I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and
the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to be better than that. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. "Norminn" wrote in message hlink.net... : : This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than the very : basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand consulting : other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected. So, a : bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are diddling : about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there is any : possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that could : vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200 and : electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the cost of : a licensed electrician. |
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Shocking Shower
On Jun 11, 4:30 pm, wrote:
The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. Through the air. AC at 60hz acts like a radio wave in that it can induce a voltage in a conductor near by. Any wiring, motor or transformer will radiate electromagnetic radio waves. The plumbing is the antenna that is being induced. Yes, and of the billions of homes, office, business, etc buildings, this one is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect through the air is occuring. And it's coming through the air from the furnace to the bathroom shower? LOL This is definitely a grounding problem of some kind. We don't even know what the grounding arrangement is, whether it was done correctly, or whether some grounding path has been interrupted. That's where I'd be looking, not at EMI. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? The felt voltage is not coming directly from the wiring. The shower head is the hot lead of the voltage source and the wet ground or drain is the other conductor. Electricity has to have a path to be felt. 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? Short the two leads. The shower head and the floor drain. Yes, and of the billions of homes and businesses buildings, this one is the only one where this induced AC electromagnetic effect is occuring. |
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Shocking Shower
On Jun 12, 8:18 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to be better than that. -- I hope you're joking here. Norminn has a very valid point. I'm an electrical engineer and I would not self diagnose and fix this. What I would do is close that shower, leave the furnace off, make everyone that should know aware of it and get a licensed electrician out there ASAP. There is the very real possibility that something very bad could occur and if it does, the liability here is extremely high. And if you fool around and try to fix it, that liability could extend for years. Say 3 years from now, something changed or got worse and then someone got electrocuted in that shower. Or even in that building. Don't you think someone is gonna say, "gee, I remember Stormin was working on it...." And then, even if you did nothing wrong, you could be ruined. If you want to do something, make a donation to the church to pay for the licensed electrician. Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. . "Norminn" wrote in message hlink.net... : : This is an interesting thread, although I don't know more than the very : basics of what is being discussed....but.....I can understand consulting : other DIYers if the writer was the only person being affected. So, a : bunch of campers are getting mild electrical shocks and you are diddling : about what to do or not to do? You have to be nuts! If there is any : possibility that there is a loose or crossed connection that could : vibrate or expand and make full contact, then what? Save $200 and : electrocute a kid? I will send $10 to the OP to help cover the cost of : a licensed electrician. |
#27
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Shocking Shower
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to be better than that. Since this is the church camp, I think you have an obligation to do this right and immediately also. Which is why I suggested that _surely_ there's an experienced electrician in the congregation. I certainly disagree with the last sentence and think you're opening yourself and your church to a serious potential liability problem. imo, etc., ... -- |
#28
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Shocking Shower
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 16:40:39 -0000, BobK207
wrote: On Jun 11, 8:02 am, dpb wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: ... They built a mess hall, cabins, and a couple shower and toilet buildings. Cement slab, wood frame walls. Shingled roof. The campers are complaining that when they touch the shower handle, they can feel an electrical tingle. The WH is propane gas fired. The propane line (black iron) also goes to a Rheem Contour furnace, which supplies an overhead heat duct. I took a VOM and length of copper pipe, used that to check from the shower handle to the drain. Got 5 volts AC. Doesn't happen when the power is switched off for the furnace. I traced the wiring, the furnace was only put in a year or two ago. (Nobody complained about shocks until the new furnace was put in.) New, shiny copper wires. I pulled the wire nuts on the neutral and ground. The wires are clean, adequately stripped back, and the wire nuts get a good "bite". The panel box, like the rest of the building is only two or three years old, and nice and new. The WH has dielectric thread connections at the top, I can see the red plastic at the fitting. From what I can tell, the water main coming out of the ground is plastic. The questions a 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? And how's it getting into the shower? The only other electrical devices in the building are lights, and a couple electric sockets. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? 3) How to safely take care of the problem so the campers aren't being shocked? My thoughts at the moment, are that the neutral / ground has some corrosion or resistance past the panel. Meaning outside the building. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. Any other thoughts of how to handle this shocking problem? You have, almost certainly, a grounding issue. My first thought w/ separate buildings an auxiliary ground is inadequate/missing, but with only a general description not possible to tell much specific. Need to know how the power is distributed and where the ground(s) are. I'd be a little concerned that your measurement of the voltage is an underestimate from the technique to reach so I'd treat this as a potentially (pun not intended) serious issue. Probably adding a ground directly at the shower head as a temporary pallative would help. Surely there's a good electrician-type in the church that can help diagnose this? Distributed system grounds can be very difficult to trace and a pro should be able to recognize where there's a problem if a needed ground is missing. -- All- Some comments & more questions than answers....... Sounds like he's got a grounding problem but desn't he also have a problem in the furnace itself? the resistance from the grounding system to the earth is too high? & the "ground path" from the grounding system to plumbing, instead of grounding the shower plumbing is actually "hotting it" but isn't the real problem in the furnace? some how is the power leaking over to furnace frame & thereby "hotting" the furnace frame & ground? now you've got some juice in the (inadequate?) ground system that is trying to find it's way back to earth.......the shower plumbing & the showerers are part of this ad hoc path. shouldn't the fault (nsulation? wire contacting bare metal?) in the furnace be looked into? maybe a fault in the blower motor? Grounding is part of the issue but isn't the source of the voltage of equal importance? cheers Bob The first thing he should do is completely disconnect the furnace. The switch shuts off the HOT. But open the box and disconnect the neutral too. Then see if you get a shock or voltage reading. If not, there is an electrical leak, bad motor or something else. If there is still voltage in the shower, the problem is not the furnace. You did not mention what kind of pipe feeds that shower. Is it copper, steel or pvc or some other plastic? If it's copper, or steel ground the pipes to a good ground. If its a type of plastic, some wire has to be touching the shower valve. It could be someone punctured a romex cable with a nail and it's leaking into something metal touching the shower valves. On the other hand, it could be the drain that is getting the voltage. I dont think anyone uses metalic pipe for drainage these days. Thus, with pvc pipes, the voltage it leaking into the drain, or the tub itself if it's a metal tub. Here's another test. Shut off the MAINS in thge breaker box. Do you still get a shock? If not, turn on the mains and turn off each breaker one by one till you find the one that kills the shock. Trace that entire circuit. I'd guess it does to that bathroom. Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the man upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more people in heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God. T8EPLO96 |
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Shocking Shower
On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:09:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I checked. Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and they do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work. Sledge hammering a ground rod above your head is a great way to get hurt. I've done it. After that I learned that they make T-post drivers. Much safer and easier. You only need the hammer for the last 18 inches or so. Yes, you really should use an 8 footer. Shorter ones are for tv antennas, electric fence grounds, and other oddball stuff. |
#30
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Shocking Shower
John Grabowski wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... "John Grabowski" wrote in message ... : : : : Are the ground and the neutral separated in the new subpanel or are they : bonded together? CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I don't know. The neutral bar should be insulated from the box. It is possible there is a bonding jumper from the neutral bar to the box. Sometimes a very visible strap. Sometimes a very non-obvious screw - usually green. Do you have a good grounding conductor from the subpanel : to the main panel? CY: There is a conductor. But the fellow who runs the camp didn't seem at all pleased with the electrician. So, it may not be good. Is there a good ground at the main panel? By good : ground I am referring to two ground rods and a connection to the main water : line. CY: The panel in the shower building has no signs of ground. The wire goes out to a cement box, which sits maybe 6 feet from the building. I see no connection from the panel to the water line. Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said) and 2 are usually installed. A slight possibility - if you have no grounding electrode and have a neutral-ground bond in the panel, the shower ground wires would lift from earth potential. Adding a furnace could provide a path from the shower ground wires to the shower valve. Earth potential is not as fixed as is commonly assumed either, though a remote church camp one wouldn't expect much variation. Around swimming pools (and buildings for animals on farms) the floor and accessible metal are all bonded. The equivalent would be connecting to the reinforcing mesh in the concrete floor when constructed and bonding to the valve, shower head, ... Bond everything and make sure you have a connection to the earth at the remote shower (as someone else said). Also not established - separate shower buildings for girls and boys? Could explain why girls get shocks, not boys. As a temporary fix you could have the girls shower with the boys. I'm thinking that you need to get an experienced electrician to look over the electrical system. There is obviously a hazard to human life. This is not a situation for a do-it-yourselfer to play around with. You need to make things right and soon! Get a professional electrician now! What ever the cost it is still cheaper than a human life. A competent electrician sounds like a real good idea. -- bud-- |
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In article , Bud-- wrote:
John Grabowski wrote: "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... CY: The grounds and neutrals go to different bars. Beyond that I don't know. The neutral bar should be insulated from the box. It is possible there is a bonding jumper from the neutral bar to the box. Sometimes a very visible strap. Sometimes a very non-obvious screw - usually green. And that could do it, too -- leaving that screw in, I mean, when it should have been removed. [...] Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said) and 2 are usually installed. Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is deeper. [Article 250.53(A)] A slight possibility - if you have no grounding electrode and have a neutral-ground bond in the panel, the shower ground wires would lift from earth potential. Adding a furnace could provide a path from the shower ground wires to the shower valve. True, but not by itself sufficient to cause the observed problem. Apparently the water pipes in the shower building are not properly grounded either. Code requires metal water piping to be bonded to the electrical grounding system, to ensure that there won't be any potential difference between the water pipes and ground. [...] Also not established - separate shower buildings for girls and boys? Could explain why girls get shocks, not boys. As a temporary fix you could have the girls shower with the boys. Even more shocking. g -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
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Shocking Shower
Stormin Mormon wrote:
I'm the OP. The building was wired by a licensed electrician, and the furnace was installed by a business. So, anything I do has to be better than that. But you have no license, and altering the work done by the furnace co. might be bad for warranty issues, etc. I appreciate the loss of confidence in the contractor, but that is where I would go first. Call the owner of the company and tell him your campers are getting electrical shocks. Bet it gets his attention. I'm am all for DIYers trouble-shooting leaky pipes, missing shingles, busted windows, but when there is an issue of potential danger to the public - people with no reason to expect a hazard, and much worse if they are children - then the duty to remove the hazard is much greater. My kids roughed it at camp, at a tender age - bugs, heat, cold, long walks in the dark to the outhouse, poison ivy, etc. - but if they called and told me they got electrical shocks in the shower, I'd be there pronto to take them home. Since you don't know the problem, you have no way of predicting what might happen. Loose wire that vibrates enough to make more complete contact and electrocute somebody? IMO, that is an urgent matter. |
#33
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Shocking Shower
Norminn wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote: .... Since you don't know the problem, you have no way of predicting what might happen. Loose wire that vibrates enough to make more complete contact and electrocute somebody? IMO, that is an urgent matter. All of the above and more... Not shutting the power off or blocking the use of the shower until this is solved and known to have been solved correctly is foolhardy and irresponsible. As a Trustee of our church, if we had such a situation and a responsible camp director who didn't take _immediate_ action to protect the safety of the the campers and correct the problem, that person would be strongly admonished for their inaction to the point of dismissal. This is a situation that is NOT the same as futzing around in one's own house -- one has the obligation and duty to ensure the kids are as safe as can possibly be. A youngster drowned in a Y day camp near here the first day of the season this spring -- needless to say, that organization is going through hell just now and will be for the foreseeable future. While probably not a high probability of serious injury or death from this as described, it's a risk that simply should not be taken as it would, in retrospect, be VERY hard to explain to both law and insurance investigators why such a situation was allowed to continue when it was known to exist if something were to happen. -- -- |
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Shocking Shower
On Jun 12, 1:14 am, Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2007-06-11, Stormin Mormon wrote: 1) Why would a brand new furnace be leaking power? Good question. Note that in order for someone to be shocked as described, there must be a double fault. That is, a live conductor must be energizing some metal parts, which are themselves not properly bonded. If you ensure that all the metal parts (hot and cold water pipe, gas pipe, furnace frame) are properly bonded to the EGC in the building service, then a fault in the furnace should trip the breaker. 2) Why isn't the power going out the neutral and ground? If there is a return path that parallels the proper neutral path, some current will always flow on it. So a person will get a mild shock when standing on the shower floor and touching the plumbing because they complete a circuit, one that is fairly high resistance compared to the "usual" return path. And that the solution is to run a new ground wire out the wall, and sink a ground stake right outside the wall with the panel box. This in and of itself will not help you, and under bizarre circumstances it could make the problem worse. You having a bonding problem, not an earthing problem. Earthing provides protection in the case of overvoltage; bonding provides protection in the case of accidentally energizing metal parts. Cheers, Wayne Bonding without proper grounding can still get you killed. You could have all the nearby metal parts bonded together, but without a proper earth ground the metal could all be at an entirely different potential. Take for example a spa. Code says all the metal components must be bonded together. And for good reason. You don't want the possibility of one piece of metal that you could touch to be at a different potential than another that you could contact. However, if there is not a proper earth ground back at the service panel to which the spa is grounded, then you could step out of the spa and complete a path between the bonded parts of the spa and the earth, which could be at different potential. |
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Shocking Shower
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 09:38:17 -0500, wrote:
Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the man upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more people in heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God. He may be going to zap some nasty camper. The kid is probably dirty too, so he has yet to take a shower, but some day he will. T8EPLO96 |
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Shocking Shower
wrote in message
... : : The first thing he should do is completely disconnect the furnace. : The switch shuts off the HOT. But open the box and disconnect the : neutral too. Then see if you get a shock or voltage reading. If not, : there is an electrical leak, bad motor or something else. If there is : still voltage in the shower, the problem is not the furnace. CY: That's good. I remember that we did turn off the furnace, and the 5 volts disappeared. : : You did not mention what kind of pipe feeds that shower. Is it : copper, steel or pvc or some other plastic? If it's copper, or steel : ground the pipes to a good ground. If its a type of plastic, some : wire has to be touching the shower valve. It could be someone : punctured a romex cable with a nail and it's leaking into something : metal touching the shower valves. CY: The water pipe is copper. : : On the other hand, it could be the drain that is getting the voltage. : I dont think anyone uses metalic pipe for drainage these days. Thus, : with pvc pipes, the voltage it leaking into the drain, or the tub : itself if it's a metal tub. CY: Unlikely that the drain is energized. : : Here's another test. Shut off the MAINS in thge breaker box. Do you : still get a shock? If not, turn on the mains and turn off each : breaker one by one till you find the one that kills the shock. Trace : that entire circuit. I'd guess it does to that bathroom. CY: Good diagnostic technique. : : Of course, since this is a church project, it could be that the man : upstairs is just having a little fun, or maybe he needs more people in : heaven. So, if all else fails, blame God. CY: I'll do that. : : T8EPLO96 : |
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Thanks for the good advice. I've seen the tube things with two
handles for inserting fence posts. I'll put out the word I'm wanting one for a couple days. -- Christopher A. Young You can't shout down a troll. You have to starve them. .. wrote in message ... : On Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:09:08 -0400, "Stormin Mormon" : wrote: : : The furnace has both a neutral and a ground. I know -- I checked. : Is 8 foot the standard? I was in Home Cheepo last night, and they : do sell 8 foot ground rods. Is a shorter rod acceptable? Eight : feet sounds like a lot of sledge hammer work. : : Sledge hammering a ground rod above your head is a great way to get : hurt. I've done it. After that I learned that they make T-post : drivers. Much safer and easier. You only need the hammer for the : last 18 inches or so. Yes, you really should use an 8 footer. Shorter : ones are for tv antennas, electric fence grounds, and other oddball : stuff. : |
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Doug Miller wrote:
Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said) and 2 are usually installed. Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is deeper. [Article 250.53(A)] 250.53-A is installation and is not whichever. 250.52-A-5 has requirements for the electrode - min 8'. -- bud-- |
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In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote: Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said) and 2 are usually installed. Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is deeper. [Article 250.53(A)] 250.53-A is installation and is not whichever. 250.53(A): "Where practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be embedded below permanent moisture level." 250.52-A-5 has requirements for the electrode - min 8'. Note the word "minimum". Clearly, if the depth of permanent moisture is at, say, 10 feet, and it is "practicable" to drive a rod to that depth, 250.53(A) *requires* doing so. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
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