Went back to the summer camp. Just simply can't get the shower to
shock. Yes, took off a shoe and sock, and put the wet foot on the
metal drain. Tried everything we could think of, and can't get
the shower to shock.

Turned on lights. Turn on furnace. Try a different shower.

Traced some wires. The ground is NOT tied to the neutrals. The
ground wire goes to a stake in the ground. The neutral goes back
to wherever neutrals go.

They are going to call in an electrician. In the meantime, we
unhooked the furnace in case that's the source of power. I
suspect a bad neutral. When they have a lot of lights, etc, going
in the cabins, the neutral might be higher than ground potential.
How that's getting into the shower pipes is still unclear.

I'll keep you posted.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

Not obvious if you are saying there is no grounding electrode at the
shower building. It is code required. Rods are notoriously poor, but the
easiest if an electrode is not now present. Code is 8' (as someone said)
and 2 are usually installed.
Actually, Code is 8' or to the depth of permanent soil moisture, whichever is
deeper. [Article 250.53(A)]
250.53-A is installation and is not whichever.

250.53(A): "Where practicable, rod, pipe, and plate electrodes shall be
embedded below permanent moisture level."

250.52-A-5 has requirements for the electrode - min 8'.

Note the word "minimum". Clearly, if the depth of permanent moisture is at,
say, 10 feet, and it is "practicable" to drive a rod to that depth, 250.53(A)
*requires* doing so.


I misread your original post as 8' or moisture whichever is less. What
you wrote, whichever is greater, is right and is a good practice.

I doubt you usually know the depth to permanent soil moisture, which
makes the article a little hard to enforce. And I doubt it is enforced.
Fortunately the move is, in general, to Ufer/concrete encased
electrodes, which are far better electrodes.

Anyone been required to use a ground rod more than 8' in the earth?

--
bud--

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Went back to the summer camp. Just simply can't get the shower to
shock. Yes, took off a shoe and sock, and put the wet foot on the
metal drain. Tried everything we could think of, and can't get
the shower to shock.

Another possibility is 'mass hysteria'. One person thinks they feel a
shock and others, who then have an expectation, can 'feel' one.


Turned on lights. Turn on furnace. Try a different shower.

Traced some wires. The ground is NOT tied to the neutrals. The
ground wire goes to a stake in the ground. The neutral goes back
to wherever neutrals go.

They are going to call in an electrician. In the meantime, we
unhooked the furnace in case that's the source of power. I
suspect a bad neutral. When they have a lot of lights, etc, going
in the cabins, the neutral might be higher than ground potential.
How that's getting into the shower pipes is still unclear.

I'll keep you posted.


Thanks. It will be interesting.

--
bud--

Bud-- wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Went back to the summer camp. Just simply can't get the shower to
shock. Yes, took off a shoe and sock, and put the wet foot on the
metal drain. Tried everything we could think of, and can't get
the shower to shock.

Another possibility is 'mass hysteria'. One person thinks they feel a
shock and others, who then have an expectation, can 'feel' one.
....

True, and except for the fact he actually was able to measure a
potential difference and (iirc) feel it himself initially, I'd think it
a higher probability...

But, again, since it's a public facility, caution is the word of the day...

--

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 19:44:55 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Went back to the summer camp. Just simply can't get the shower to
shock. Yes, took off a shoe and sock, and put the wet foot on the
metal drain. Tried everything we could think of, and can't get
the shower to shock.

Turned on lights. Turn on furnace. Try a different shower.

Traced some wires. The ground is NOT tied to the neutrals. The
ground wire goes to a stake in the ground. The neutral goes back
to wherever neutrals go.

They are going to call in an electrician. In the meantime, we
unhooked the furnace in case that's the source of power. I
suspect a bad neutral. When they have a lot of lights, etc, going
in the cabins, the neutral might be higher than ground potential.
How that's getting into the shower pipes is still unclear.

I'll keep you posted.


Well I am no electrician but I know a few and am an electrical engineer.
The neutral seperation from the ground does not sound right to me. The
ground and neutral should be at the same potential except when there is
current flowing through the neutral. The fact that they are disconnected
seems wrong.

Of course I guess proper terms are in order. when you say 'ground' what
do you mean? The wire connected to the 3rd prong in outlets and whatnot?
That is the onlything I think you can call a ground. that should go back
to the panel and tie into the neutral, then from there they both should
hit a stake in the ground together. So they will always be at same
potential. IIRC.

With that current layout, if that stake in the ground becomes a better
return than the proper neutral for whatever reason, you will be
shocking people. This can change based on earth conditions and maybe even
neutral loading.

Im not electrician but it does not seem proper.