Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With
the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left
for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It doesn't
seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or cooler
overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I wake up
in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of the
upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut everything
up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but
I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the best
way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try to set
up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling fans provide
enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter anyway, and the
only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still need to get up in
the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop some 14/3 switch legs
to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into
it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

thanks,

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel writes:

Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah,
I know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade.
Here's the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day.
With the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's
left for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It
doesn't seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or
cooler overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I
wake up in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of
the upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut
everything up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I
got home, but I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having
the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the
best way to deal with this

I'm a bit farther north (NJ).

Surrounded by trees and no AC.

The whole house fan does the trick.
There are days when it's too hot but not a lot of them.

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With
the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left
for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It doesn't
seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or cooler
overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I wake up
in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of the
upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut everything
up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but
I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the best
way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try to set
up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling fans provide
enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter anyway, and the
only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still need to get up in
the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop some 14/3 switch legs
to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into
it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

thanks,

nate


Invest in a couple of very powerful window fans.
Not the $20 box fan, real window fans.

While you're in the attic, survey the insulation level.

If windows receive sun, do *something* to prevent that
heat getting in.

Jim ex-DC'er

Speedy Jim wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah,
I know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade.
Here's the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the
day. With the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80
in the upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from
work.) As soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I
will open all the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan
that the PO's left for me to try to blow some outside air through the
house. It doesn't seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65
degrees or cooler overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees
or so when I wake up in the morning. I suspect if I could get the
ambient temp. of the upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and
then shut everything up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as
hot when I got home, but I seem to be getting little or no cooling
from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the
best way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try
to set up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling fans
provide enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter
anyway, and the only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still
need to get up in the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop
some 14/3 switch legs to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into
it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

thanks,

nate


Invest in a couple of very powerful window fans.
Not the $20 box fan, real window fans.

While you're in the attic, survey the insulation level.

Insane. Previous owners got almost too jiggy with the insulation. I do
believe that the walls are uninsulated however, not a big deal up to the
2nd floor (all masonry) but probably ought to be insulated at some point
above that (sticks covered with asbestos shingle)


If windows receive sun, do *something* to prevent that
heat getting in.

yeah, just put up heavy curtains in the bedroom in the SE corner, the
one in the SW corner has none as of yet (only used as an office/computer
room) all other rooms have blinds which are closed during the day

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With the
windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the upstairs
(rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As soon as the
outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all the upstairs
windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left for me to try
to blow some outside air through the house.

Open the DOWNSTAIRS windows as well. The hot air needs to be replaced with
something.

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to circulate
cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into it that much
yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

Most thermostats that I've seen have a switch for "Auto" and "On". Normally
it's in the auto position to let the furnace control the fan. In the on
position, the fan runs all the time. Might help out as well.

"Dan Espen" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel writes:

Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah,
I know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade.
Here's the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day.
With the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's
left for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It
doesn't seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or
cooler overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I
wake up in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of
the upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut
everything up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I
got home, but I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having
the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the
best way to deal with this

I'm a bit farther north (NJ).

Surrounded by trees and no AC.

The whole house fan does the trick.
There are days when it's too hot but not a lot of them.

I have two $20 stand fans, one up and one down, and I'm just fine most days
here in NY. The trees are what does it, though. I don't even have to close
the windows during the day, the sun just can't get through. We have lots of
light but no direct sunshine. It's perfect.

Noozer wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With the
windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the upstairs
(rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As soon as the
outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all the upstairs
windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left for me to try
to blow some outside air through the house.


Open the DOWNSTAIRS windows as well. The hot air needs to be replaced with
something.


I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to circulate
cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into it that much
yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?


Most thermostats that I've seen have a switch for "Auto" and "On". Normally
it's in the auto position to let the furnace control the fan. In the on
position, the fan runs all the time. Might help out as well.



I don't have that. I would have to run an extra pair of wires down to
the furnace, and figger out where to hook them up; the thermostat is
on/off, heat only. I assume that this is something that can be done
easily as I have seen thermostats as you describe (and indeed if I ever
add A/C I will need to wire up this functionality.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade.


Heh..

I live in south Texas.. Been running the A/C since February.

I like the ceiling fan idea the best, but I'm also in the security
business and leaving windows open makes me cringe. In northern Texas
and Louisiana I've seen big attic fans to suck air up from ground
level and exhaust to the outside. I guess if humidity is low outside
a breeze may make the space livable, but that is not an option on the
Gulf Coast.

Window A/C units are pretty cheap now. Maybe get one or two for
comfort and heat waves that are inevitably coming to your area.

Dan Espen wrote:

I'm a bit farther north (NJ).

Surrounded by trees and no AC.

The whole house fan does the trick. There are days when it's too hot
but not a lot of them.


Possibly further north than you, NY

Solution for me was the creation of ridge vents when I had the house
re-roofed. Controlling how much heat gain the under roof area achieved
made a world of difference.

Nate Nagel wrote:

yeah, just put up heavy curtains in the bedroom in the SE corner, the
one in the SW corner has none as of yet (only used as an
office/computer room) all other rooms have blinds which are closed
during the day

Heavy drapes don't prevent the sun from hitting the glass, which then
transfers the heat into the house via radiation. You need to block the sun
from hitting the windows via an outside blind or an awning.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

I will open all the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that
the PO's left for me to try to blow some outside air through the house.
It doesn't seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or
cooler overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I
wake up in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of the
upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut everything up
when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but I
seem to be getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

You have to move the hot air out and the cooler air in. A good powerful
window fan can do wonders. You have the fan blowing out of the bedroom and
only open the windows in the rooms to be used. You can suck air a long
distance through the house that way and cool everything along the way.

Ceiling fans just circulate the hot air already in the room, floor fans
don't do much better. You have to blow hot air out and draw cooler air in.
You may even want to consider a whole house fan that blows up through the
attic and out the eaves. That also gets rid of the blanket of heat above
you.

OTOH, I bought my first AC for our bedroom back about 1968 and have not been
without at least a cool bedroom since. You can get them for $99 these days
and on a hot humid night, nothing beat real AC.

On Thu, 31 May 2007 19:07:06 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I

P&M.

I live in Baltimore. Flash your lights a few times so I can see where
you are.

My house has central AC, but I only use it 2 or 3 weeks a year.

Be sure you have enough insulation between your attic and top fllor,
if the attic isn't living space.

I have almost enough.

I have a townhouse that was built with fullwidth soffit screens front
and back and full width ridge vent. Not nearly enough in my opinion.
I put in a roof fan the first summer and I love it. Before the roof
fan, it was so hot when I got home at 5 or 6 that I couldn't go
upstairs at all. I relaxed and slept in the basement, and went
upstairs in the morning to shower and get fresh clothes. AFter roof
fan, I started sleeping upstairs. At least 10 degrees cooler and 20
to 30 in the attic. I have had to replace the motor 2 or 3 times in
the last 24 years. Some last a lot longer than others, I don't know
why.

But I use fans too, a lot.

I don't like window fans because it would take an awful lot of fanning
to really put a breeze through my house, if nature hasn't provided
one. And they obstruct the window, and I don't have many windows.

I only use table fans, and I have one wherever i spend any time, which
means above my bed, facing my chair when I'm sitting at my desk,
facing my chair when I'm sitting at the kitchen table, and facing the
sofa when I'm in the living room. And one at work on my desk, facing
me. Even though work has AC, there are times when it is not enough.
So the fan is always blowing straight at me.

I don't use the oscillation when the fan has it, but I live alone. I
think if other people lived here, and we didn't sit right next to each
other, I'd buy more fans. (rummage sales and thrift stores mostly.) I
would definitely have a second fan for the bed, although it would be
hard to find another one small enough to fit on the sill.

The below-grade basement is never hot enough to need a fan.

I don't like the noise of fans, so every fan has a speed control. I
plug the control into the wall and plug the fan into it. 2 or 3
controls I bought as table-top lamp dimmers (the brown box with the
slide control), and the others were home made: one I bought a ceiling
fan speed control and mounted it my own plastic box, with a cord to
the wall, and a receptacle I can plug the fan into. And one was a
dimmer that went in the wall under a standard wall plate, that I ended
up mounting in a fairly big metal box (big enough to use in a wall for
a switch or receptacle)

Several people here don't like the idea of using lamp dimmers as motor
speed controls, but I've been doing this for 24 years with no
problems. A couple motors wouldn't work with a lamp dimmer, and it's
for those fans I made up the table-top fan dimmer. I use that in the
kitchen, with the fan on top of the tv. It was a new fan about 10 or
15 years ago, with a plastic housing.

I think I can use the one that is actually a fan control to control
the speed of electric drills etc. maybe, but I have variable speed
drills and so far I haven't had occasion to try this.

I almost always set the speed of the fan to just below the speed at
which I hear the fan. So I only get the breeze. One fan, the one at
my desk, has to go a bit higher for some reason, but it's not as loud
as even the slow speed out of 3.

I never sat the dimmer so slow that the fan doesn't spin at all. It
needs to turn or it will overheat.

Also I never leave the fan alone on the dimmer until I've run it say 5
or 10 hours in a row without overheating problems. Just feel the fan.
It should be warm, but if it is hot, maybe it's being used with the
wrong dimmer, although I've never had that except the one or two that
would barely spin on the light dimmer. (There are differnt kinds of
motors.)

I have my bed just below the bedroom window, and there I use a fan
that I think was once riveted to some big machine at a factory, to
blow on the operato. It might be 50 or 70 years old. It only has two
blades, that is, one blade with two ends. And the protective screen
is barely any protection at all. But the motor is pretty weak and
when the blade wasn't firmly attached to the shaft, or even now, I
could just put my finger in with no problem. When started, it would
take 15 seconds for the blade to catch up to the shaft. But it got to
where it would never catch up, so I glued the blade on.

It has a tiny flat cast metal base, 4"x4" and would always be knocked
over or pulled over if I didn't nail one corner to the window sill.

This old fan doesn't have self-lubricating bearings and I have to oil
it 2 to 5 times during the summer. Sometimes it will last 2 months on
one oiling and sometimes only a few days. I guess it depends on how
well I do it. Sometimes when I didn't keep the oil right by the fan,
I would let it slow down some, and then in the middle of the night it
would slow down to a stop. But it had already done this a few times
in the middle of the day too. Motor was quite hot, but after oiling
it was always good as new.

For a while, I thought it would make me too cold if the outside temp
went down during the night, so I took a thermostatic contro from
another fan, mounted in the plastic cap from some aerosol can, and
wired that into the power cord. I don't use it much anymore but it's
adjustable and sometimes I set it just warmer than the current temp,
so the fan has just gone on as I turn the knob. Then it will turn off
if it gets any colder inside.

OH YES VERY IMPORTANT. I learned to sleep with no blanket or sheet
covering me. It was hard to do. I used to use a blanket or
comforter no matter how hot it was. It took a couple weeks to get
used to no covers. That was worth 5 or 10 degrees. The following year
I learned to sleep with no clothes on and no covers. That was worth
at least another 5, for a total of at least 15.

I live alone. If you have daughters, the naked part is probably not a
good idea.

The roof fan turns on between 8 in the morning and noon, depending on
how hot and sunny it is. It turns off between 6 in the afternoon and
9, so it's always quiet when I go to sleep. It never lets the attic
get more than 5 or 10 degrees hotter than the outside temp, so the
wood that makes up the house never heats up more than that and the
second floor and the furniture and walls never get very hot. A whole
house fan doesn't work until it gets cool out, and there will some
days it will be 80 or more until you fall asleep, I believe. If it's
80 out, the fan won't make it cooler than 80 in.

I'm dubious about ceiling fans. My table fans I think blow far more
where I am than would a ceiling fan. Maybe in the kitchen where
someone moves around while cooking, but the fan on top of the tv has
some effect in the rest of the kitchen too.

My brother has one in my bedroom when I visit, in his airconditioned
Dallas home. I think a table fan might do more, but since the house
AC is sst to 72, I don't have a real comparison. Another friend here
who also has AC has 2 or 3 ceiling fans, one on a not that high but
cathedral ceiling. He doesn't have the money my brother has and he
gets a lot of heat in his living room window, and sets the AC to 75,
and the celing fan does something but i'm not sure how much. Should I
pay attention next time I'm there.

I hate having the windows closed. I hate the quiet.

I absolutely woudn't install more than one ceiling fan at first, and
compare the results with a table fan. Or two if you have more family.

know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With
the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left
for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It doesn't
seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or cooler
overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I wake up
in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of the
upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut everything
up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but
I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the best
way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try to set
up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling fans provide
enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter anyway, and the
only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still need to get up in
the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop some 14/3 switch legs
to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into
it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

thanks,

nate

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C.
Yeah, I know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for
shade. Here's the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside
during the day. With the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up
to about 80 in the upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get
home from work.) As soon as the outside temp drops below the inside
temp, I will open all the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap
floor fan that the PO's left for me to try to blow some outside air
through the house. It doesn't seem to be working - outside temp
will drop to 65 degrees or cooler overnight but the bedroom will
still be 75 degrees or so when I wake up in the morning. I suspect
if I could get the ambient temp. of the upstairs down to the same
temp as the outside and then shut everything up when I left for
work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but I seem to be
getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the
best way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try
to set up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling
fans provide enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter
anyway, and the only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still
need to get up in the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop
some 14/3 switch legs to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug
into it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?


I set up a "gable vent fan" in the attic access hole (exhausting) with
a X10 appliance module to turn if on and off. I open a window upstairs
and a window downstairs when I want to use the fan. It's sort of a
"poor mans" whole house fan. The fan had four mounting "arms" on it. I
sliped foam pipe insulation over each arm and place it in the access
hole to the attic. The foam de-couples the vibration to reduce noise.
It really makes a difference here in Seattle, It won;t do so well in
DC, but better than just a fan.

Bob

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

yeah, just put up heavy curtains in the bedroom in the SE corner, the
one in the SW corner has none as of yet (only used as an
office/computer room) all other rooms have blinds which are closed
during the day

Heavy drapes don't prevent the sun from hitting the glass, which then
transfers the heat into the house via radiation. You need to block the sun
from hitting the windows via an outside blind or an awning.

Low-e glass stops a lot of that heat, like 90% of it.

I have the same problem as the OP, 'cept that trees aren't an option. My
front lawn is 10 feet from house to street, it faces south and the front of
the house gets direct sun for as long as the sun is above the horizon.

I did put in a ridge vent a month ago but I'm not sure it's going to work.
Well, it can't make it hotter!

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Ceiling fans just circulate the hot air already in the room...
You have to blow hot air out and draw cooler air in.

And make sure the cool air scrubs the heat out of the room surfaces, vs
just passing through rooms with still air near the surfaces (including
people surfaces, which feel cooler in moving air.) Ceiling fans can help
whole house fans. Picture surface thermal mass in series with an airfilm
conductance Ga that increases with air velocity (Ga = 2+V/2 Btu/h-F-ft^2,
with V in mph, approximately) in series with a conductance to outdoor air
(cfm Btu/h-F, approximately), like this, viewed in a fixed font:

1/cfm 1/(AGa)
Tout ---www------www----------- Tsurf
|
|
--- Csurf = 0.5A Btu/F/ft^2
---
| for A ft^2 of 1/2" drywall.
|
-

A 10'x20' room with 880 ft^2 of drywall might have Csurf = 440 Btu/F.
With a 1000 cfm window fan and a ceiling fan that raises the airspeed
near the surface to V = 2 mph, it might have a natural time constant
RC = Csurf(1/cfm+1/(A(2+V/2)) = 440(1/1000+1/(880(2+2/2)) = 0.6 hours.

In 2 hours with Tout = 70 F, a Tsurf = 80 F room would would cool to
70+(80-70)e^-(2/0.6) = 70.4 F. With a 500 cfm window fan and no ceiling
fan, RC = 1.1 hours, so it might only cool to 70+(80-70)e^-(2/1.1)
= 71.7, or more, if the bulk of the air near the surface stays warm,
hardly moving at all.

With R20 walls, after 8 hours with Tout = 90 F with the window fan off
and no internal heat gains and RC = 10 hours, the 70.4 F drywall temp
would climb to 90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/10) = 81.2, or less, with 2 layers of
drywall with RC = 20 hours and 90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/20) = 76.9. We might
have a lot more mass and a lower temp if we cooled a basement at night
and circulated house air through the basement during the day.

Nick

On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:32:09 -0600, "Bob M." wrote:


"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Nate Nagel wrote:

yeah, just put up heavy curtains in the bedroom in the SE corner, the
one in the SW corner has none as of yet (only used as an
office/computer room) all other rooms have blinds which are closed
during the day

Heavy drapes don't prevent the sun from hitting the glass, which then
transfers the heat into the house via radiation. You need to block the sun
from hitting the windows via an outside blind or an awning.

Low-e glass stops a lot of that heat, like 90% of it.

I have the same problem as the OP, 'cept that trees aren't an option. My
front lawn is 10 feet from house to street, it faces south and the front of
the house gets direct sun for as long as the sun is above the horizon.

Maybe you could put in a skyscraper across the street.


I did put in a ridge vent a month ago but I'm not sure it's going to work.
Well, it can't make it hotter!

Bob M. wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

Heavy drapes don't prevent the sun from hitting the glass, which then
transfers the heat into the house via radiation. You need to block
the sun from hitting the windows via an outside blind or an awning.

Low-e glass stops a lot of that heat, like 90% of it.

Not from direct sun radiation. I have brand new, low-e windows (milguard)
and they do fair with blocking outside ambient temperatures. When the sun
hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an absolute
neccesity.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC and at
no cost.

On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC and at
no cost.

Agreed, we have trees, but the upstairs still gets hot. After reading
this thread and seeing that several people recommended window fans, I
thought "what the hell?" when someone says "window fan" I think of
those cheezy little plastic things. Well I did a web search and found
that there are *real* window fans made; I've already ordered a big Air
King unit, we will see what happens. I suspect that whoever suggested
that the attic is getting hot is correct, although there's a ludicrous
amount of insulation up there. If the window fan does not do the
trick, I will look into some kind of powered attic ventilation. My
house is odd; the roof does not overhang the exterior walls at all,
although there are large vents at the top of the exterior walls so one
of those would be a good place to put a thermostatically controlled
fan.

nate

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:44:23 -0700, N8N wrote:

On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC and at
no cost.

Agreed, we have trees, but the upstairs still gets hot. After reading
this thread and seeing that several people recommended window fans, I
thought "what the hell?" when someone says "window fan" I think of
those cheezy little plastic things. Well I did a web search and found
that there are *real* window fans made; I've already ordered a big Air
King unit, we will see what happens. I suspect that whoever suggested
that the attic is getting hot is correct, although there's a ludicrous
amount of insulation up there. If the window fan does not do the

P&M

What you could do is get a wireless thermometer. Lowes had one for 15
dollars, but it seems to go through batteries pretty quickly.
Especially since I only use it one week every 26 or so, so I guess I
would remove the battery during the rest of the time. The lowes is
cheap and pretty, but for the same price you can get a big ugly one at
Harbor Freight, but it has a) min and max holds, that keep track of
current as well as min and max since the last time you reset it, and
b) has the current temp on the transmitter, not just the receiver.

First, you could calibrate a regulart themometer against the wireless,
and if they don't say the same thing, use a third as a tie-breaker,
then handicap the one that is off, if any.

Then without the fan on, measure the temp of your room near the
ceiling and at other heights closer to the floor. It is always hotter
near the ceiling of any room because hot air rises, but if the
difference is ?? just guessing, 6, 7 degrees more or less more than
at 4 feet high, too much heat is coming in through the attic.

Another thing one should do is go up when the attic is cool enough,
just at the start of dawn is when the attic is at its coolest, and
leave the transmitter there, and see how hot the attic gets as the day
goes on, and how hot it is at dawn. The min max would be nice for
that.

And out of curiosily, you might even bury the transmitter at various
depths in the insulation, to see how much cooler the temp is 6 inches
down than on the surface.

Insulation is great, but if it is 140 or 150 in the attic, I can't
help; thinking it will still be 110 at the top of the ceiling
sheetrock, and 100 at the surface of the sheetrock in your bedroom
But I just got the wireless thermmoeter and haven't made any
measurements at all.

With my roof fan, I think it gets no higher than 100 or 110 up there,
even in the middle of the day, but even that is too hot for me to go
up and measure temps. At least I never did.

It's better to have the most data to work with, and also if you do
install a fan, or someone else who installs insulation, he'll know how
much improvement he gets. And can post here like an authority.


trick, I will look into some kind of powered attic ventilation. My
house is odd; the roof does not overhang the exterior walls at all,
although there are large vents at the top of the exterior walls so one
of those would be a good place to put a thermostatically controlled
fan.

nate

Window fan does the trick for me on all but the most humid days. I
close up the house early in the morning and close/open pleated shades
throughout the day according to the sun's travel. It stays at least
10 degrees cooler than outside. Once the temperature drops outside so
that it's cooler out there, I open one upstairs window in an unused
bedroom, put in the window fan blowing out, and open the downstairs
windows. Shortly before bed, I close the downstairs windows and open
my upstairs bedroom windows. BTW, this is a cheap window fan, ~$20,
in a 1600+ sq ft house. I have a very hot attic but, like yours, a
lot of insulation. Lots of shade trees that keep the yard too dark to
garden, but none of them shade the house (great planning on the part
of whoever planted them, eh? Yes, the house is old enough that it's
been here longer than the trees.)

Jo Ann

Agreed, we have trees, but the upstairs still gets hot. After reading
this thread and seeing that several people recommended window fans, I
thought "what the hell?" when someone says "window fan" I think of
those cheezy little plastic things. Well I did a web search and found
that there are *real* window fans made; I've already ordered a big Air
King unit, we will see what happens. I suspect that whoever suggested
that the attic is getting hot is correct, although there's a ludicrous
amount of insulation up there. If the window fan does not do the
trick, I will look into some kind of powered attic ventilation. My
house is odd; the roof does not overhang the exterior walls at all,
although there are large vents at the top of the exterior walls so one
of those would be a good place to put a thermostatically controlled
fan.

nate

On May 31, 8:15 pm, Clancy Wiggum wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade.

Heh..

I live in south Texas.. Been running the A/C since February.

I like the ceiling fan idea the best, but I'm also in the security
business and leaving windows open makes me cringe. In northern Texas
and Louisiana I've seen big attic fans to suck air up from ground
level and exhaust to the outside. I guess if humidity is low outside
a breeze may make the space livable, but that is not an option on the
Gulf Coast.

Window A/C units are pretty cheap now. Maybe get one or two for
comfort and heat waves that are inevitably coming to your area.

so if you don't like leaving windows open, that pretty much rules out
anything but a swamp cooler or real A/C. Of course, I supposeI
*could* rig a swamp cooler to use cistern water... is that acceptable
per code?

How do PIRs deal with ceiling fans, anyway? I agree, if I'm leaving
windows open, the only real security would be a system using PIRs.

nate

N8N wrote:
On May 31, 8:15 pm, Clancy Wiggum wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C.
Yeah, I know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for
shade.

Heh..

I live in south Texas.. Been running the A/C since February.

I like the ceiling fan idea the best, but I'm also in the security
business and leaving windows open makes me cringe. In northern Texas
and Louisiana I've seen big attic fans to suck air up from ground
level and exhaust to the outside. I guess if humidity is low outside
a breeze may make the space livable, but that is not an option on the
Gulf Coast.

Window A/C units are pretty cheap now. Maybe get one or two for
comfort and heat waves that are inevitably coming to your area.

so if you don't like leaving windows open, that pretty much rules out
anything but a swamp cooler or real A/C.

It rules out a swamp cooler as well. In order to properly draft, a window
needs to be open opposite of the coolers location.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

well, it's finally summer here in DC. Yay. House has no A/C. Yeah, I
know, but I loved the place and there's lots of trees for shade. Here's
the problem; it gets up over 90 degrees outside during the day. With
the windows closed and blinds drawn it gets up to about 80 in the
upstairs (rest of house is comfortable when I get home from work.) As
soon as the outside temp drops below the inside temp, I will open all
the upstairs windows and turn on the cheap floor fan that the PO's left
for me to try to blow some outside air through the house. It doesn't
seem to be working - outside temp will drop to 65 degrees or cooler
overnight but the bedroom will still be 75 degrees or so when I wake up
in the morning. I suspect if I could get the ambient temp. of the
upstairs down to the same temp as the outside and then shut everything
up when I left for work, it wouldn't even be as hot when I got home, but
I seem to be getting little or no cooling from having the windows open.

To those of you who also persist in living without A/C, what's the best
way to deal with this - get a bunch of window mount fans to try to set
up an artificial cross breeze, or would installing ceiling fans provide
enough circulation? (the girlie wants to do the latter anyway, and the
only reason I haven't done it yet is because I still need to get up in
the attic and install the heavier boxes and drop some 14/3 switch legs
to the wall boxes.)

I've also thought about tricking the furnace fan into running to
circulate cool air up from the basement, but I haven't really dug into
it that much yet. Would that be a worthwhile modification?

thanks,

nate

Even at 80 deg., a ceiling fan would make you feel cooler..won't cool
the house but would increase comfort level. Perhaps an exhaust fan in
the upstairs window that would draw cooler air into the house with a
window open downstairs/shady side. For windows on the sunny side, cheap
white or reflective window shades would keep a good deal of heat out.

mm wrote:
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 10:44:23 -0700, N8N wrote:


On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message


When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC and at
no cost.

Agreed, we have trees, but the upstairs still gets hot. After reading
this thread and seeing that several people recommended window fans, I
thought "what the hell?" when someone says "window fan" I think of
those cheezy little plastic things. Well I did a web search and found
that there are *real* window fans made; I've already ordered a big Air
King unit, we will see what happens. I suspect that whoever suggested
that the attic is getting hot is correct, although there's a ludicrous
amount of insulation up there. If the window fan does not do the


P&M

What you could do is get a wireless thermometer. Lowes had one for 15
dollars, but it seems to go through batteries pretty quickly.
Especially since I only use it one week every 26 or so, so I guess I
would remove the battery during the rest of the time. The lowes is
cheap and pretty, but for the same price you can get a big ugly one at
Harbor Freight, but it has a) min and max holds, that keep track of
current as well as min and max since the last time you reset it, and
b) has the current temp on the transmitter, not just the receiver.

First, you could calibrate a regulart themometer against the wireless,
and if they don't say the same thing, use a third as a tie-breaker,
then handicap the one that is off, if any.

Then without the fan on, measure the temp of your room near the
ceiling and at other heights closer to the floor. It is always hotter
near the ceiling of any room because hot air rises, but if the
difference is ?? just guessing, 6, 7 degrees more or less more than
at 4 feet high, too much heat is coming in through the attic.

Another thing one should do is go up when the attic is cool enough,
just at the start of dawn is when the attic is at its coolest, and
leave the transmitter there, and see how hot the attic gets as the day
goes on, and how hot it is at dawn. The min max would be nice for
that.

And out of curiosily, you might even bury the transmitter at various
depths in the insulation, to see how much cooler the temp is 6 inches
down than on the surface.

Insulation is great, but if it is 140 or 150 in the attic, I can't
help; thinking it will still be 110 at the top of the ceiling
sheetrock, and 100 at the surface of the sheetrock in your bedroom
But I just got the wireless thermmoeter and haven't made any
measurements at all.

With my roof fan, I think it gets no higher than 100 or 110 up there,
even in the middle of the day, but even that is too hot for me to go
up and measure temps. At least I never did.

It's better to have the most data to work with, and also if you do
install a fan, or someone else who installs insulation, he'll know how
much improvement he gets. And can post here like an authority.

I have one of those remote deals built into an alarm clock - it's a neat
little gadget I picked up at Target. comes with a remote thermometer
and the clock has an atomic clock receiver built in. I might see if I
can get another remote to go with it, as I don't want to move the one I
have inside; I use it to determine when to open the upstairs windows.

I also have one of those point and shoot infrared thermometer deals; I
might have to retrieve that from my buddy's garage next time I make it
over there. Not much use in the attic, but I could shoot the ceiling in
the bedrooms to see how much heat is really coming down from above.

I suspect that the eventual solution will be a fan in the attic, but
that would involve probably having someone install it, which isn't about
to happen this year. I'm envisioning a fan set up at one of the vent
openings blowing out, controlled by a thermoswitch somewhere in the
middle of the attic to come on at some set point (100 degrees? 110
degrees? Something hotter than any normal ambient outside temperature,
anyway.) However your point to actually collect data before committing
to that course of action is well taken.

I realize it would be just as easy to install a window A/C unit in the
bedroom, but the brute force method offends my sensibilities as an
engineer. I'd rather try the more efficient solutions first...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...

I realize it would be just as easy to install a window A/C unit in the
bedroom, but the brute force method offends my sensibilities as an
engineer. I'd rather try the more efficient solutions first...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel


What about a ridge/soffit vent system? No moving parts, no electrical bill,
no noise... Seems quite efficient to me.

In article . com,
N8N wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC and at
no cost.

So, why not awnings? Better, maybe, retractable awnings.

If they worked back then, wouldn't they still at least *help* now?

Or maybe the beauty-police would deem them "ugly" and thus
"unacceptable" for *this* neighborhood?


David

In article ,
wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Ceiling fans just circulate the hot air already in the room...
You have to blow hot air out and draw cooler air in.

And make sure the cool air scrubs the heat out of the room surfaces, vs
just passing through rooms with still air near the surfaces (including
people surfaces, which feel cooler in moving air.) Ceiling fans can help
whole house fans. Picture surface thermal mass in series with an airfilm
conductance Ga that increases with air velocity (Ga = 2+V/2 Btu/h-F-ft^2,
with V in mph, approximately) in series with a conductance to outdoor air
(cfm Btu/h-F, approximately), like this, viewed in a fixed font:

1/cfm 1/(AGa)
Tout ---www------www----------- Tsurf
|
|
--- Csurf = 0.5A Btu/F/ft^2
---
| for A ft^2 of 1/2" drywall.
|
-

A 10'x20' room with 880 ft^2 of drywall might have Csurf = 440 Btu/F.
With a 1000 cfm window fan and a ceiling fan that raises the airspeed
near the surface to V = 2 mph, it might have a natural time constant
RC = Csurf(1/cfm+1/(A(2+V/2)) = 440(1/1000+1/(880(2+2/2)) = 0.6 hours.

In 2 hours with Tout = 70 F, a Tsurf = 80 F room would would cool to
70+(80-70)e^-(2/0.6) = 70.4 F. With a 500 cfm window fan and no ceiling
fan, RC = 1.1 hours, so it might only cool to 70+(80-70)e^-(2/1.1)
= 71.7, or more, if the bulk of the air near the surface stays warm,
hardly moving at all.

With R20 walls, after 8 hours with Tout = 90 F with the window fan off
and no internal heat gains and RC = 10 hours, the 70.4 F drywall temp
would climb to 90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/10) = 81.2, or less, with 2 layers of
drywall with RC = 20 hours and 90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/20) = 76.9. We might
have a lot more mass and a lower temp if we cooled a basement at night
and circulated house air through the basement during the day.

Nick


Very nice, but ...

For those of us who's most recent engineering, physics, thermo, fluids,
etc courses were a LONG time ago (early 60's for me), please expand
your very-interesting text with perhaps a few definitions, therefores,
etc, so we can better *understand* your surely-excellent points.

THANKS!

David

In article .com,
...

so if you don't like leaving windows open, that pretty much rules out
anything but a swamp cooler or real A/C. Of course, I supposeI
*could* rig a swamp cooler to use cistern water... is that acceptable
per code?

How do PIRs deal with ceiling fans, anyway? I agree, if I'm leaving
windows open, the only real security would be a system using PIRs.

nate


What is a PIR?

Thanks!

David

In article .net,
Norminn wrote:

Even at 80 deg., a ceiling fan would make you feel cooler..won't cool
the house but would increase comfort level. Perhaps an exhaust fan in
the upstairs window that would draw cooler air into the house with a
window open downstairs/shady side. For windows on the sunny side, cheap
white or reflective window shades would keep a good deal of heat out.

Now that I finally think of it, re those hot ceilings, hot
via the attic, don't forget to consider the heat you yourself
receive via RADIATION from that ceiling.

And also window-glass that gets hot from the sun.

David

"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
...

so if you don't like leaving windows open, that pretty much rules
out
anything but a swamp cooler or real A/C. Of course, I supposeI
*could* rig a swamp cooler to use cistern water... is that
acceptable
per code?

How do PIRs deal with ceiling fans, anyway? I agree, if I'm leaving
windows open, the only real security would be a system using PIRs.

nate


What is a PIR?

Thanks!

Personal Infrared Detector - Motion sensor.

Bob

David Combs wrote:

For those of us who's most recent engineering, physics, thermo, fluids,
etc courses were a LONG time ago (early 60's for me)

Me too.

please expand your very-interesting text with perhaps a few definitions,
therefores, etc...

OK.

wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Ceiling fans just circulate the hot air already in the room...
You have to blow hot air out and draw cooler air in.

And make sure the cool air scrubs the heat out of the room surfaces, vs
just passing through rooms with still air near the surfaces

Still air is a poor heat conductor, about R5 per inch. A square foot of
still air 1" thick is like a 5 ohm resistor, for heatflow through the 1"
thickness. DEFINITION: Ohm's law for heatflow is just like Ohm's law for
electricity with different units, thermal resistances vs ohms, Btu/h vs
amps, and Fahrenheit temperature differences instead of voltage diffs.
For example, 4 Btu/h flows in this circuit, viewed in a fixed font:

3
-------www-------
| ----- |
| 12 4 |
--- |
- |
| |
| |
--- ---
- -

(including people surfaces, which feel cooler in moving air.)

THEREFORE, if a person generates 300 Btu/h at 100 F internally with a 91 F
skin temp (measured with a $50 Raytek IR thermometer), we have something
like this, with an internal resistance Ri and a skin surface resistance Ra
in 70 F slow-moving air:

91 F
Ri | Ra
---------www-------------www-------
| -------------------- |
| I = 300 Btu/h |
| 100 F | 70 F
--- ---
- -
| |
| |
--- ---
- -

300Ri = (100-91) makes Ri = 0.03 and 300Ra = (91-70) makes Ra = 0.07, no?

If the slow moving air has a film conductance Ua = 2 Btu/h-F-ft^2 and
Ra = 1/(UaAs) = 0.07, the person might have As = 1/(RaUa) = 7 ft^2 of
exposed skin, out of 20 ft^2 of total average Dubois skin surface.

Now if the room temp rises to 85 F and everything else is the same, the skin
temp rises to 85+300Ra = 106 F, very uncomfortable. What to do? Rest vs work,
eg a siesta to lower heat generation, which can vary by 10:1, depending on
activity, or lose weight, since heat output increases with body mass, or
decrease Ri (some people in Arizona adapt to heat with more blood flow near
the skin and higher skin temps), or evaporate sweat, or stand in a bucket
of water, or increase the airspeed near the skin, and/or remove clothing.

To be equally comfortable with a 91 F skin temp, we might reduce Ra until
300Ra = (91-85), ie Ra = 0.02 or Ga = 1/Ra = 50 = AsUa. Increasing airspeed
to 6 mph (enough to blow papers off desks) makes Ua = 2+6/2 = 5 Btu/h-F-ft^2
and As = 10 ft^2, with more exposed skin, and so on.

Ceiling fans can help whole house fans. Picture surface thermal mass
in series with an airfilm conductance Ua that increases with air velocity
(Ua = 2+V/2 Btu/h-F-ft^2, with V in mph, approximately) in series with
a conductance to outdoor air cfm Btu/h-F, approximately),

DEFINITION: fans are thermal conductors. A 1000 cfm airstream with a dT (F)
temperature difference moves about 1000dT Btu/h, ie it has a conductance of
about 1000 Btu/h-F.

like this, viewed in a fixed font:

1/cfm 1/(AUa)
Tout ---www------www----------- Tsurf
|
|
--- Csurf = 0.5A Btu/F/ft^2
---
| for A ft^2 of 1/2" drywall.
|
-

And 1 ft^2 of 1/2" drywall is like a 0.5 farad capacitor...

A 10'x20' room with 880 ft^2 of drywall might have Csurf = 440 Btu/F.
With a 1000 cfm window fan and a ceiling fan that raises the airspeed
near the surface to V = 2 mph, it might have a natural time constant
RC = Csurf(1/cfm+1/(A(2+V/2)) = 440(1/1000+1/(880(2+2/2)) = 0.6 hours.

DEFINITION: an RC time constant is a measure of how fast a circuit
reacts to change.

In 2 hours with Tout = 70 F, a Tsurf = 80 F room would would cool to
70+(80-70)e^-(2/0.6) = 70.4 F.

The wall starts at Tsurf = Ti and becomes T(t) = Tout + (Ti-Tout)e^(-t/RC)
t hours after the fan starts. Initially, T(t) = Tout + (Ti-Tout)e^(-0/RC)
= Ti. After a very long time, T(t) = Tout + (Ti-Tout)e^(-oo/RC) = Tout.
Nice, huh? Most of this happens in 3 or 4 time constants. In between,
the exponential function e^(-t/RC) gradually squashes the initial temp diff
(Ti-Tout) to 0 over time.

With a 500 cfm window fan and no ceiling fan, RC = 1.1 hours...

Adding resistors in series, RC = (1/500+1/(2x880))440 = 1.13 hours.

it might only cool to 70+(80-70)e^-(2/1.1) = 71.7, or more, if the bulk
of the air near the surface stays warm, hardly moving at all.

With R20 walls, after 8 hours with Tout = 90 F with the window fan off
and no internal heat gains and RC = 10 hours...

RC = 20ft^2-F-h/Btux0.5Btu/F-ft^2 = 10 hours.

the 70.4 F drywall temp would climb to 90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/10) = 81.2

.... as before, with a final temp and a negative initial temp diff that
gets stomped down to 0 over time by the cruel but patient exponential.

or less, with 2 layers of drywall with RC = 20 hours and
90+(70.4-90)e^-(8/20) = 76.9.

Same old stuff, with slower stomping.

We might have a lot more mass and a lower temp if we cooled a basement
at night and circulated house air through the basement during the day.

Basements have lots of thermal mass. If we don't live in them, we can cool
them below the comfort temp, but we have to be careful to avoid blowing
moist outdoor air through a basement, with condensation.

THANKS!

You are welcome.

Nick

"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
N8N wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable awnings
are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a long
time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up
electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu AC
and at
no cost.

So, why not awnings? Better, maybe, retractable awnings.

If they worked back then, wouldn't they still at least *help* now?

Or maybe the beauty-police would deem them "ugly" and thus
"unacceptable" for *this* neighborhood?


The beauty police would write a ticket for awnings, and they're pretty much
unnecessary today with low-e thermopane glass. Awnings only keep the sun
out, they don't stop the heat from radiating through the glass, nor do they
stop the ultraviolet rays. Low-e thermopane glass does all of that, and in
the winter the low-e coating keeps your heat inside the house.

Bob M. wrote:

... Awnings only keep the sun out, they don't stop the heat from radiating
through the glass, nor do they stop the ultraviolet rays.

They do, on my planet :-)

Nick

Bob M. wrote:
"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
N8N wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable
awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a
long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up
electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu
AC and at
no cost.

So, why not awnings? Better, maybe, retractable awnings.

If they worked back then, wouldn't they still at least *help* now?

Or maybe the beauty-police would deem them "ugly" and thus
"unacceptable" for *this* neighborhood?


The beauty police would write a ticket for awnings, and they're
pretty much unnecessary today with low-e thermopane glass.

Even with top of the line Milguard low e, awnings are a big necessity when
the sun is on the window glass for hours at a time.

Awnings
only keep the sun out, they don't stop the heat from radiating
through the glass, nor do they stop the ultraviolet rays.

Low E only reduces the transfer of ambient outside heat, it is insufficient
at reducing the transfer of direct radiation when the sun hits the glass.
And awnings most certainly reduce ultraviolet rays as well as low e.

..... and in the winter the low-e
coating keeps your heat inside the house.

It HELPS to retain heat, but is not an absolute barrier. It certainly does
allow some heat to radiate out.

You need both awnings and low-e.



--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
Bob M. wrote:
"David Combs" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
N8N wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:06 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message

When the sun hits the glass, not so much. Our retractable
awnings are an
absolute neccesity.

Ah, awnings. They were on most every house when I was a kid, a
long time
ago. Now we just stick a cooker box in the window and suck up
electricity
instead. A decent tree can cool your house as much as a 12000 Btu
AC and at
no cost.

So, why not awnings? Better, maybe, retractable awnings.

If they worked back then, wouldn't they still at least *help* now?

Or maybe the beauty-police would deem them "ugly" and thus
"unacceptable" for *this* neighborhood?


The beauty police would write a ticket for awnings, and they're
pretty much unnecessary today with low-e thermopane glass.

Even with top of the line Milguard low e, awnings are a big necessity when
the sun is on the window glass for hours at a time.


Ok, I'll buy that. Here, on my ranch-style house, my roof overhang is about
2.5 feet which is great in the summer. The sun is high enough in the sky
that the roof blocks the sun from hitting the windows. In the winter when
the sun is much lower on the horizon, the sun does hit the windows, but who
cares in the winter.

I would put up trees if I could - that would be the best solution - but my
front yard which faces south is only 10 feet deep.