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[email protected] April 23rd 07 08:15 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Joe wrote:

I've been looking for a good dehumidifier and I notice that each big
box store only really carries one brand and there really isn't much
online as far as reviews. I know some dehumidifiers are energy hogs...


How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.

To also heat (cool) a house in a cool (warm) season, we might power up
the Smart Vent with a differential thermostat only when outdoor air is
warmer (cooler) than house air.

Nick


Edwin Pawlowski April 23rd 07 08:31 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 

wrote in message
...

....

How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


Does that mean when the absolute moisture content is the same (high or low)
it does noething? Seems like it would have limited value in a naturally
humid region whee you want to make it lower.







William Mcfadden April 24th 07 12:46 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
I've been looking for a good dehumidifier and I notice that each big
box store only really carries one brand and there really isn't much
online as far as reviews. I know some dehumidifiers are energy hogs...


Thermastor makes the most efficient dehumidifier, according to Energy Star.
Costs a lot but can pay for itself in energy savings. When I bought mine,
it was twice as efficient as the models sold at Sears. I use it to dry out
my swamp of a basement. It's somewhat noisy, but apart from that I have no
complaints.

http://www.thermastor.com/Santa-Fe/

The powered vent that Nick recommends would be a lot cheaper to buy and to
run, assuming it can be used in your application.

--
Bill McFadden http://www.rdrop.com/users/billmc
CAUTION: Don't look into laser beam with remaining eye.

Neon John April 24th 07 03:06 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 23 Apr 2007 14:15:55 -0400, wrote:

Joe wrote:

I've been looking for a good dehumidifier and I notice that each big
box store only really carries one brand and there really isn't much
online as far as reviews. I know some dehumidifiers are energy hogs...


How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


But that isn't what he asked about. If he has a serious humidity
problem as I did then venting won't do a thing. I tried (for about
$100 for a vent fan that fit in place of a concrete-block-sized vent).

Last year when I turned my vacation home into my residence and moved a
lot of possessions into my basement, I bought this dehumidifier:

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...95&prDeTab=2#A

Which is this unit, private labeled for Sam's I think:

http://products.geappliances.com/App...=GEA &TABID=2

Same specs, same control panel, same looks.

Later I connected a watt-hour meter to the unit. With the humidistat
set for 50% RH, from the period from 11/04/06 til today, the unit has
consumed 346 KWH or 2.03 per day. At my power rate that's 13 cents a
day, $3.95 per month.

My basement is quite moist - green mold grew everywhere - but quite
cool, never going above 60 deg even in the summer. That, of course
has a very favorable impact on the cost of operating this unit.

The way to evaluate the efficiency of a dehumidifier is its rating in
pints removed per KWH consumed. Using the spec sheet of 580 watts
draw and 40 pints/day, that works out to 2.9 Pts/KWH.

It turns out that this is worst-case, for I just checked my unit with
a Kill-A-Watt and measured 450 watts. That makes the Pts/KWH a much
better 3.7. That compares nicely with the 5.3 that the Santa Fe unit
that Bill posted about in this thread. The GE is far cheaper (list
price is $189). At the energy consumption rate that mine is
exhibiting I could never save enough energy to pay the cost difference
for the Santa Fe.

One other thing to note. For low temperature and/or very low humidity
operations, your dehumidifier must operate in the freezing mode. That
is, the evaporator must get cold enough to form frost to condense
sufficient moisture to achieve a low humidity and the unit must have a
good auto-defrost cycle. The GE does both.

For higher temperature operation and moderate humidity reduction, a
modified window AC works great. The modification involves stopping up
the passage from the evaporator to the condenser that lets the
condensate be slung upon the condenser and evaporated. Block the tube
and drill a hole in the bottom to allow the condensate to drain out.

At under a hundred bux for a 5KBTU window unit, that's a heck of a
good deal. Just sit it in the floor over a drain or bucket and turn
it on. If the room is small enough that the humidity is reduced
rapidly then you might need an external humidistat.

I used one like that in the upstairs part of my home for several
years. I haven't measured the efficiency in terms of Pts/KWH but I
know that my power bill is about the same so the AC can't be a big
power hog.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 24th 07 07:00 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

wrote:

Joe wrote:

I've been looking for a good dehumidifier and I notice that each big
box store only really carries one brand and there really isn't much
online as far as reviews. I know some dehumidifiers are energy hogs...


How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


But that isn't what he asked about. If he has a serious humidity
problem as I did then venting won't do a thing.


Au contraire. It will, with suitable weather conditions and controls
and building materials that can store moisture and dryness, eg paper
and wood and clothing and concrete with suitable sorption isotherms.

Concrete stores about 1% moisture by weight as the RH of the surrounding
air increases from 40 to 60%, and it weighs about 150 lb/ft^3, so
a 4"x1000ft^2 50K pound floorslab might store 500 pints of water as
a basement RH increases from 40 to 60%.

Smart Vent's 12/19/2000 US patent no. 6,161,763 "Module-controlled building
drying system and process" at http://www.freepatentsonline.com describes

"...drying air circulation between inside and outside the building based
on absolute humidity and temperature sensor measurements... the input ports
are connected to... outside absolute humidity sensors... [and] inside
absolute humidity sensors [and] the output ports are connected to...
[a fan system.] ...if the outside air has a lower absolute humidity than
the inside air... the fan system output will be activated... if the outside
air has a higher absolute humidity than the inside air... the fan system
will be shut down."

Last year when I turned my vacation home into my residence and moved a
lot of possessions into my basement, I bought this dehumidifier:

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...95&prDeTab=2#A

The way to evaluate the efficiency of a dehumidifier is its rating in
pints removed per KWH consumed. Using the spec sheet of 580 watts
draw and 40 pints/day, that works out to 2.9 Pts/KWH.

It turns out that this is worst-case, for I just checked my unit with
a Kill-A-Watt and measured 450 watts. That makes the Pts/KWH a much
better 3.7...


Yesterday it was 67.8F with 41% RH in my house with some windows open,
so the vapor pressure Pi = 0.41e^(17.863-9621/(460+67.8)) = 0.284 "Hg.
The indoor humidity ratio wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.00597 pounds
of water per pound of dry air. The outdoor sensor in partial sun read
84.0 at 19%, so Po = 0.181 "Hg and wo = 0.00379, so every pound of air
that flowed through the house removed wi-wo pounds of water.

A Smart Vent could have removed 290x60x0.075(wi-wo) = 2.8 pints of water
per hour, at 70 vs 3.7 pints per kWh.

To also heat (cool) a house in a cool (warm) season, we might power up
a Smart Vent with a differential thermostat only when outdoor air is
warmer (cooler) than house air.

And we could hook a relay in parallel with the Smart Vent fan to power
a whole house fan, and add house room air thermostats to shut off the fan
if the house becomes too warm or too cool.

Nick


Neon John April 24th 07 09:03 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 24 Apr 2007 01:00:42 -0400, wrote:

Neon John wrote:

wrote:

Joe wrote:

I've been looking for a good dehumidifier and I notice that each big
box store only really carries one brand and there really isn't much
online as far as reviews. I know some dehumidifiers are energy hogs...

How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


But that isn't what he asked about. If he has a serious humidity
problem as I did then venting won't do a thing.


Au contraire. It will, with suitable weather conditions and controls
and building materials that can store moisture and dryness, eg paper
and wood and clothing and concrete with suitable sorption isotherms.

Concrete stores about 1% moisture by weight as the RH of the surrounding
air increases from 40 to 60%, and it weighs about 150 lb/ft^3, so
a 4"x1000ft^2 50K pound floorslab might store 500 pints of water as
a basement RH increases from 40 to 60%.


yeah, that's all well and good if you're starting from scratch. But
neither he nor I are. We both have existing buildings with moisture
problems and not amount of math will solve the problem.

In addition to using the best available construction techniques back
in the early 70s when we built the place, over the years I've had the
foundation dug out, French drains installed, the block walls tarred
and polyethylene sheathed and gravel backfill placed next to the
house. Plus painting the inside walls with water-stop paint. The
walls and slab are STILL moist to the touch. There's simply too much
water in the ground, too much flora to hold it in place and almost no
sun to drive it off.

I ventilated the basement with far more air flow than your $360 gadget
provides and it made no difference in either the mold growth or the
measured RH.


Smart Vent's 12/19/2000 US patent no. 6,161,763 "Module-controlled building
drying system and process" at http://www.freepatentsonline.com describes

"...drying air circulation between inside and outside the building based
on absolute humidity and temperature sensor measurements... the input ports
are connected to... outside absolute humidity sensors... [and] inside
absolute humidity sensors [and] the output ports are connected to...
[a fan system.] ...if the outside air has a lower absolute humidity than
the inside air... the fan system output will be activated... if the outside
air has a higher absolute humidity than the inside air... the fan system
will be shut down."


Another worthless rubber-stamp patent issued in spite of vast amount
of prior art. Disgusting.



Last year when I turned my vacation home into my residence and moved a
lot of possessions into my basement, I bought this dehumidifier:

http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/nav...95&prDeTab=2#A

The way to evaluate the efficiency of a dehumidifier is its rating in
pints removed per KWH consumed. Using the spec sheet of 580 watts
draw and 40 pints/day, that works out to 2.9 Pts/KWH.

It turns out that this is worst-case, for I just checked my unit with
a Kill-A-Watt and measured 450 watts. That makes the Pts/KWH a much
better 3.7...


Yesterday it was 67.8F with 41% RH in my house with some windows open,
so the vapor pressure Pi = 0.41e^(17.863-9621/(460+67.8)) = 0.284 "Hg.
The indoor humidity ratio wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.00597 pounds
of water per pound of dry air. The outdoor sensor in partial sun read
84.0 at 19%, so Po = 0.181 "Hg and wo = 0.00379, so every pound of air
that flowed through the house removed wi-wo pounds of water.

A Smart Vent could have removed 290x60x0.075(wi-wo) = 2.8 pints of water
per hour, at 70 vs 3.7 pints per kWh.

To also heat (cool) a house in a cool (warm) season, we might power up
a Smart Vent with a differential thermostat only when outdoor air is
warmer (cooler) than house air.


You don't have anything nearly approximating a moisture problem. You
live in an arid environment as evidenced by those outdoor readings and
only need a little humidity management, something that throwing open
the windows will probably accomplish. We, OTOH, have many "95-95"
days - 95 degrees and 95% humidity. Your overpriced hair dryer blower
won't touch that.

And we could hook a relay in parallel with the Smart Vent fan to power
a whole house fan, and add house room air thermostats to shut off the fan
if the house becomes too warm or too cool.


For about 2/3rds the cost of that so-called smart vent, one can
install a whole house attic fan and actually move some air. Which is
precisely what I did years ago. In my case, equipped with a PMDC
motor and variable voltage drive. I can spin it at ceiling fan
velocity and generate a gentle draft-free air exchange or I can crank
it up and sail the drapes. And still have much money left over
compared to that gadget.

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course. In
my case, in the 30 years this cabin has been in existence, this is the
first year the basement has been dry enough to store valuable goods
such as electronic gear and books. That's thanks to a dehumidifier
that costs less than half your fan and uses only slightly more power.

I don't understand your abnormal advocacy of that little fan. Do you
have a financial interest in the product?

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 24th 07 12:41 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

Concrete stores about 1% moisture by weight as the RH of the surrounding
air increases from 40 to 60%, and it weighs about 150 lb/ft^3, so
a 4"x1000ft^2 50K pound floorslab might store 500 pints of water as
a basement RH increases from 40 to 60%.


yeah, that's all well and good if you're starting from scratch. But
neither he nor I are. We both have existing buildings with moisture
problems and not amount of math will solve the problem.


Sounds like you have enough concrete, but few dry days... 500 pints
is only 10 days at 50 pints per day.

I ventilated the basement with far more air flow than your $360 gadget
provides and it made no difference in either the mold growth or the
measured RH.


Unsmart venting can *add* moisture to basements by condensation.

Smart Vent's 12/19/2000 US patent no. 6,161,763 "Module-controlled building
drying system and process" at http://www.freepatentsonline.com describes

"...drying air circulation between inside and outside the building based
on absolute humidity and temperature sensor measurements... the input ports
are connected to... outside absolute humidity sensors... [and] inside
absolute humidity sensors [and] the output ports are connected to...
[a fan system.] ...if the outside air has a lower absolute humidity than
the inside air... the fan system output will be activated... if the outside
air has a higher absolute humidity than the inside air... the fan system
will be shut down."


Another worthless rubber-stamp patent issued in spite of vast amount
of prior art. Disgusting.


This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.

Yesterday it was 67.8F with 41% RH in my house with some windows open,
so the vapor pressure Pi = 0.41e^(17.863-9621/(460+67.8)) = 0.284 "Hg.
The indoor humidity ratio wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pi-1) = 0.00597 pounds
of water per pound of dry air. The outdoor sensor in partial sun read
84.0 at 19%, so Po = 0.181 "Hg and wo = 0.00379, so every pound of air
that flowed through the house removed wi-wo pounds of water.

A Smart Vent could have removed 290x60x0.075(wi-wo) = 2.8 pints of water
per hour, at 70 vs 3.7 pints per kWh.


That's 67 pints per day with less than 1 kWh.

To also heat (cool) a house in a cool (warm) season, we might power up
a Smart Vent with a differential thermostat only when outdoor air is
warmer (cooler) than house air.


I wish they made a version like that, with a "season sensor" to change
the sense of the differential thermostat.

You don't have anything nearly approximating a moisture problem. You
live in an arid environment as evidenced by those outdoor readings and
only need a little humidity management...


Philadelphia? :-) As I mentioned above, that outdoor temp/RH sensor
was in partial sun. The outdoor temp was 76 in the shade, which made
the outdoor RH about 25%, rare but nice here in the spring.
This morning it's 64.6 F and 55% outdoors.

... We, OTOH, have many "95-95" days - 95 degrees and 95% humidity.


We have a few nights like that in August.

Your overpriced hair dryer blower won't touch that.


It works well in humider Arkansas, where it was developed.

And we could hook a relay in parallel with the Smart Vent fan to power
a whole house fan, and add house room air thermostats to shut off the fan
if the house becomes too warm or too cool.


For about 2/3rds the cost of that so-called smart vent, one can
install a whole house attic fan and actually move some air.


But then you have to do all those horrible calculations every day.
You want to remove more than 67 pints per day?

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.


Of course it does, precisely.

I don't understand your abnormal advocacy of that little fan. Do you
have a financial interest in the product?


No, but I've been trying to help get a product like this to market for
several years now, since Murray Milne and Pablo LaRoche from UCLA gave
a talk on a "smart whole house fan controller" at the ASU Cooling Frontiers
symposium. Their box (with an Onset Tattletale controller) automatically
cooled a massy test house by ventilation, but it didn't address humidity.
With RH sensors, we can efficiently dehumidify and also cool and warm
houses with outdoor air, with no danger of indoor condensation.

Nick

Berlin is a nice town and there were many opportunities for a student to
spend his time in an agreeable manner, for instance with the nice girls.
But instead of that we had to perform big and awful calculations.

Konrad Zuse, inventor of the 1936 Z1 computer


Neon John April 24th 07 09:20 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 24 Apr 2007 06:41:25 -0400, wrote:



Another worthless rubber-stamp patent issued in spite of vast amount
of prior art. Disgusting.


This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


And if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to
sell you. Do you think that the patent for the common tree swing was
novel? How about the "cat exerciser", chasing a cat around with a
laser pointer? Reckon there was any prior art? How 'bout the Nexium
patent that, when all the verbiage was stripped away, covered a
slightly different shade of purple from its predecessor, Prilosec?
Thankfully, that one got slapped down after someone requested a
reexamination.

In computer science, the infamous "XOR" patent that covered a basic
screen update technique that had been in common use for years. All
issued in the last 10 years. Or the recent patent office chief, can't
recall if it was GW's or Clinton's, who said publicly that they didn't
have enough manpower to examine patents anymore so they were issuing
almost all and would let the courts work it out?

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.


Of course it does, precisely.


Really? Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of
those fans and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging
equipment and we'll see what it does in this environment. I have
several HOBOs including the temperature and RH one. I'll buy the duty
cycle one to log the fan run time. I'll log the power consumption
with the same meter I used to log my dehumidifier so there won't be
any calibration questions. If it works then I'll either buy it from
you or return it, your choice. If it doesn't, I return it to you.

"Working" is defined as 50% or lower RH in that space at all times
without raising the temperature above 70, conditions suitable for
valuable book storage.

This should be an excellent testbed since even when the temperature is
in the 90s in the day, it drops to at least the 60s at night. The
common factor is the almost always high humidity.

You game?

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 24th 07 09:48 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


... if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to sell you...


I do, as a registered US patent agent, having passed the same federal
bar exam that attorneys take.

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.


Of course it does, precisely.


Really?


Yes...

Nick


LM April 24th 07 10:06 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 

On 24 Apr 2007 06:41:25 -0400, wrote:


This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


My post is definitely not on topic, but here goes anyway... Just for
laughs :)

All patents are probably novel, as in original, new and unique, but to
claim that they are always useful (or sane) is a stretch...

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/crazy.html

Start quote --

US Patent 6369603 - ‘Animal Toy’ granted to Samuel Pai for a plastic
‘stick’. He was granted that in 1999. The genius is not that he invented
a fake tree branch that you could throw for your dog, no. The true
genius is that he noticed that no one had ever applied for a fake stick
patent and then had the chutzpah to get it patented. Brilliant.

US Patent 3216423 - ‘Apparatus for facilitating the birth of a child by
centrifugal force’.

-- end quote



/lm

[email protected] April 24th 07 10:41 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
LM wrote:

This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


All patents are probably novel, as in original, new and unique, but to
claim that they are always useful (or sane) is a stretch...


That's the law. The US patent office interprets "useful" in two ways:
1.) you have to convince an examiner the invention will actually work,
as described (they are very skeptical of perpetual motion machines :-),
and 2.) it can't be a weapon of mass destruction, eg an H-bomb.

They don't care if the invention is uneconomical or impractical or ugly,
and so on. Some people get rich by filing such "submarine" patents well
before technology makes them practical. A patent claiming techniques for
for a vacuum-tube cellphone the size of a tractor-trailer might have been
a gold mine if it didn't expire before ICs were invented.

Nick


Neon John April 24th 07 11:58 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 24 Apr 2007 15:48:24 -0400, wrote:

Neon John wrote:

By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


... if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to sell you...


I do, as a registered US patent agent, having passed the same federal
bar exam that attorneys take.


So are you part of the problem?

How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.

Of course it does, precisely.


Really?


Yes...


Should I take your snipping the rest of my post as an indication that
you aren't interested in actually field testing the gadget you
promote? With my proposal I don't see that you have anything at all
to lose. Except maybe some face if it doesn't work.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 25th 07 10:42 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Pawlowski wrote:

How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


The technical description on the crawlspace web page says they evacuate
crawlspace air when its RH is more than 35% and the absolute moisture
content of the outdoor air is lower than that of the crawlspace air.
They also evacuate crawlspace air when the crawlspace RH is less than
25% and outdoor air has 20% more absolute moisture. They say adding
humidity to a crawlspace is sometimes useful to keep it from drying out
to the point that hardwood floors buckle.

Does that mean when the absolute moisture content is the same (high or low)
it does noething?


Yes. This might work well in a climate with some humidity variability
and with a fairly airtight crawlspace and some building materials that
can store moisture. It would work better in Chattanooga (wmin = 0.0036
in January) than Key West (wmin = 0.0100 in January.)

Seems like it would have limited value in a naturally humid region
whee you want to make it lower.


Yes. It only works on dryish days. There's a nice graph of crawlspace
humidity over time on the web site.

Nick


[email protected] April 25th 07 11:21 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.

... if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN...


I do, as a registered US patent agent, having passed the same federal
bar exam that attorneys take.


So are you part of the problem?


I never let myself get mad. I want peace. I tried to pinch his nostrils
so he'd let go of my arm to breathe, but he shook his head, pulling me
deeper into the cage.

I think it was then that he took out the first piece of my arm and
swallowed it without breathing, because a terror of movement settled
in me at that moment and lasted for months. He moved up the arm, and
all the time those black, blank eyes evaluated me, like a shark's, calm
and almost friendly. By this time, my right arm was a mangled mess of flesh,
pushed-out gobs of fat, and flashes of bone two inches long, but my slow
TV mind, watching, saw it as whole, just trapped in the hyena's mouth,
in a tug-of-war like the one I used to play with my dogs--only it was
my arm now instead of a sock. It didn't hurt. It never did.

The hyena looked up at me with those indescribable eyes and surged back
again, nearly pulling me onto his face. I remembered self-defense class and
the first lesson: "Poke the cockroach in the eyes." All the women had
squealed, except me. "Ooooh, I could never do that." Ha, I'd thought, anyone
who wants to kill me has no right to live. I'd poke him in the eyes...

I looked at those eyes with my fingers poised to jab. It was for my family
and my friends that I stuck my fingers in his eyes. I just wanted to stop
watching myself get eaten, either be dead and at peace or be gone, but
other lives were connected to mine. I'm not sure if I did more than touch
them gently before he let go and whipped past me to cower against the door
to the outside, the Negev desert.

Events like this teach you yourself. We all think we know what we would do,
hero or coward, strong or weak. I expected strength, and the memory of my
tin-whistle scream curdles my blood, but I am proud of the stupid thing
I did next. He cowered and whimpered and essentially apologized, still with
those blank unmoving eyes, and I stood still for a second. My arm felt
light and shrunken, as if half of it were gone, but I didn't look. From the
corridor, I had a choice of two doors: the one through which I'd entered,
leading back to the desert, and the one opening into the corral. I didn't
think I could bend over him and unlatch the door to the desert. He'd just
reach up and clamp onto my stomach. And I didn't want to open the door to
the corral, or he'd drag me in and be able to attack the men if they ever
came to help me. My body, still in control, made the good hand grab the
bad elbow, and I beat him with my own arm, as if I had ripped it free
to use as a club. "No!" I shouted. "No, no!" Lo lo lo, in Hebrew. I might
even have said "Bad boy," but I hope not. It was the beating that damaged
my hand permanently. I must have hit him hard enough to crush a ligament,
because there is a lump on my hand to this day, five years later, but he
didn't even blink. He came around behind me and grabbed my right leg, and
again there was no pain--just the feeling that he and I were playing
tug-of-war with my body--but I was afraid to pull too hard on the leg.
He pulled the leg up, stretching me out in a line from the door, where
I clung with the good hand to the mesh, like a dancer at the barre. It
felt almost good, as if the whole thing were nearer to being over. In
three moves I didn't feel, he took out most of the calf...

From Personal History: Hyena
by Joanna Greenfield,
in The New Yorker, Nov. 11, 1996

How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


You might enjoy paying me to analyze them in excruciating detail :-)

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.

Of course it does, precisely.

Really?


Yes...


Should I take your snipping the rest of my post as an indication that
you aren't interested in actually field testing the gadget you promote?
With my proposal I don't see that you have anything at all to lose.
Except maybe some face if it doesn't work.


Let's see... You wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of
those fans and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging
equipment and we'll see what it does in this environment. I have
several HOBOs including the temperature and RH one. I'll buy the duty
cycle one to log the fan run time. I'll log the power consumption
with the same meter I used to log my dehumidifier so there won't be
any calibration questions. If it works then I'll either buy it from
you or return it, your choice. If it doesn't, I return it to you.

"Working" is defined as 50% or lower RH in that space at all times
without raising the temperature above 70, conditions suitable for
valuable book storage...

You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)

FWIW, it seems to me this might work well for you, with enough books
and concrete and wood to absorb moisture in an airtight basement
with a vapor barrier and no water leaks from the outdoors.

The average yearly temp in Chattanooga is 59.3 F, and 70 F air at 50% RH
has w = 0.0079. The average outdoor humidity ratio is less than that from
October through April. You could store lots of dryness in January, with
a 37.4 F average outdoor temp and w = 0.0036. You are a bright boy. Look
up the sorption isotherms for your materials and do your own estimates
or simulations, s'il te plait. I gave you the concrete information.

Nick


Derek Broughton April 25th 07 04:06 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

On 24 Apr 2007 06:41:25 -0400, wrote:



Another worthless rubber-stamp patent issued in spite of vast amount
of prior art. Disgusting.


This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


And if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to
sell you. Do you think that the patent for the common tree swing was
novel?


I have to agree with you here. I have it from a (purported) relative of the
patent holder for that, that he took out the patent specifically to prove
how easy it is to get a patent that is _not_ novel. The US Patent Office
has a history of issuing patents for practically anything and then letting
the courts sort it out (see Michael Crichton's latest novel "Next" for the
logical conclusions of that).

How about the "cat exerciser", chasing a cat around with a
laser pointer? Reckon there was any prior art?


That actually sounds semi-reasonable (at least in a legal sense). The laser
pointer was not previously patented as an exerciser of any sort. Clearly
there's a novel application. So _somebody_ is entitled to patent it, but
it would be hard to prove that the patent holder was the one who actually
invented it's use for exercising (and blinding...) cats.
--
derek

Neon John April 25th 07 09:17 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 25 Apr 2007 05:21:32 -0400, wrote:


How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


You might enjoy paying me to analyze them in excruciating detail :-)


Nah, don't think so. Even l'il ole me can tell that chasing a cat
around with a laser pointer is neither novel, non-obvious nor lacking
in prior art. Same with two ropes tossed over a tree limb and
connected to a plank, what that tree swing patent consists of.


Let's see... You wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of
those fans and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging
equipment and we'll see what it does in this environment. I have
several HOBOs including the temperature and RH one. I'll buy the duty
cycle one to log the fan run time. I'll log the power consumption
with the same meter I used to log my dehumidifier so there won't be
any calibration questions. If it works then I'll either buy it from
you or return it, your choice. If it doesn't, I return it to you.

"Working" is defined as 50% or lower RH in that space at all times
without raising the temperature above 70, conditions suitable for
valuable book storage...

You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)


Oh, you have a lot to gain. You'd have confirmed data that the thing
either works or doesn't in a humid climate like mine. At worst you'd
end up with one of those units. At best you'd have confirmation data
and zero dollars out of pocket. As an advocate of that product,
surely you could get them to contribute a unit to the test.

Heck, I'll even submit a test plan in advance for your approval. Even
though I have my preconceived notions about the efficacy of this
gadget I AM interested in test results. My notions are wrong on very
rare occasions, after all. And as always, I publish all raw data and
my calculations. You can critique my analysis and/or do something
different with the raw data.


FWIW, it seems to me this might work well for you, with enough books
and concrete and wood to absorb moisture in an airtight basement
with a vapor barrier and no water leaks from the outdoors.

The average yearly temp in Chattanooga is 59.3 F, and 70 F air at 50% RH
has w = 0.0079. The average outdoor humidity ratio is less than that from
October through April. You could store lots of dryness in January, with
a 37.4 F average outdoor temp and w = 0.0036. You are a bright boy. Look
up the sorption isotherms for your materials and do your own estimates
or simulations, s'il te plait. I gave you the concrete information.


Except that I live 100 miles away in the mountains above Tellico
Plains. At 2500 feet in what amounts to an eastern jungle. I never
appreciated what a jungle environment is like until I moved here. I
stored my car and motorhome up here while I was on the road for about
a year. When I came back the steering wheels were twice the normal
diameters, encrusted with green mold. The pillows and bedlinens in
the MH were green with mold. Even fingerprints were outlined in green
mold! yeah, I know, my signature says Cleveland but that's just where
my mail goes. We don't have mail service up here.

I had the power and thus the AC off for that period. The inside of
the cabin was green too. What a clean-up job!

My basement had always been saturated with humidity and moldy but I
didn't fully appreciate the conditions until I parked my vehicles
here.

I'm open to letting the data regarding that fan gadget prove me wrong
but I seriously doubt it will happen.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

Neon John April 25th 07 09:27 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:06:32 -0300, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Neon John wrote:


How about the "cat exerciser", chasing a cat around with a
laser pointer? Reckon there was any prior art?


That actually sounds semi-reasonable (at least in a legal sense). The laser
pointer was not previously patented as an exerciser of any sort. Clearly
there's a novel application. So _somebody_ is entitled to patent it, but
it would be hard to prove that the patent holder was the one who actually
invented it's use for exercising (and blinding...) cats.


It's certainly novel but it fails the non-obviousness test and the
prior art test. Anyone who's played with light spots around animals
knows that they'll chase the spot. IT doesn't have to be a laser. My
cat and mom's dog will chase a flashlight spot.

In terms of prior art, a search of Usenet archives going far back
before the patent was applied for will show discussions of chasing
animals around with light spots. I know that I commented about how
much fun it was to chase my cat around with a HeNe laser long before
diode lasers hit the consumer market. Even before that there were
talks about using flashlight beams.

Worse for this particular patent, as noted on the freepatentsonline
crazy page, multiple prior patents had already been issued for the
same thing. Just another application rubber-stamped.

It would be interesting to do an experiment to see just how silly an
application has to get before it's rejected. I wish I had sufficient
mad money to pay the fees, I'd give it a shot.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 25th 07 10:15 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of those fans
and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging equipment
and we'll see what it does in this environment...


You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)


... As an advocate of that product, surely you could get them to
contribute a unit to the test.


I have no financial interest in this product.

You might enjoy talking with them yourself.

Nick


[email protected] April 26th 07 10:31 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
The Florida Solar Energy Center's first experimental report on two 10'x16'
test structures, comparing conventional AC to the NightCool System is at:

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publicati...CR-1692-07.pdf

There's also a writeup of the system at

http://BuildItSolar.com.

Up to date daily data from the system is at:

http://infomonitors.com/ntc/

They will continue to evaluate it for the remainder of the year and add
a dehumidification element to the system this summer using the intrinsic
moisture capacitance of wood in the attic to dry out the building, which
promises to reach dehumidification COPs of ~ 10--unheard of with
conventional vapor compression equipment.

They may integrate PV to end up with an integrated solar
electric and building cooling system all rolled into one.

Nick


[email protected] April 26th 07 04:14 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On Apr 25, 2:27 pm, Neon John wrote:
It would be interesting to do an experiment to see just how silly an
application has to get before it's rejected. I wish I had sufficient
mad money to pay the fees, I'd give it a shot.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill


I don't think this one is silly but I bet these guys got a patent on
their new twin crank idea.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...el-motorcycle/

Go back 210 years and you find one Reverend Edward Cartwright made
this little drawing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p8MJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA64

___________
Andre' B.


Neon John April 26th 07 08:08 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 26 Apr 2007 07:14:33 -0700, wrote:

I don't think this one is silly but I bet these guys got a patent on
their new twin crank idea.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...el-motorcycle/

Probably. I spent a little time last night looking at patents issued
last week at freepatentsonline. Just from my memory I can recall
prior art directly affecting about a third of 'em. I bet I could nuke
over half 'em with prior art with a few hours' searching.

I have a rather old 6 volume set of books called something to the
effect "encyclopedia of mechanical gadgets". It's a compilation of
interesting gadgets and mechanisms, much of the drawings from the
patent database. I hit those books first when I think I've invented
something new. I usually haven't. Too bad the patent office can't be
bothered to look in their own database.


Go back 210 years and you find one Reverend Edward Cartwright made
this little drawing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p8MJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA64


Yup, and the reverse of that, the Sachs engine that had two pistons on
a wishbone con rod. Very little mechanical is new under the sun,
especially involving IC engines.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 26th 07 10:21 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

... I spent a little time last night looking at patents issued
last week at freepatentsonline. Just from my memory I can recall
prior art directly affecting about a third of 'em. I bet I could nuke
over half 'em with prior art with a few hours' searching.


Look carefully at the claims. If someone patents an engine describing
a brass bolt in the claims, you may be able to get a newer patent claiming
a steel bolt instead of the brass bolt, because the previous patent only
claimed the brass bolt, but it may turn out that nobody (including you)
will be able to build the engine with the brass or the steel bolt,
without the previous patentholder's permission. If someone else wants to
build the steel bolt version, they will also need your permission.
In this situation, your new patent may be virtually worthless,
even though it is perfectly valid.

Nick



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