How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?

The first question is "where is the meter"? If this open was between the
meter and your panel, then it's your problem. If the problem is between
the transformer and the meter, then contact the power company's main number
and ask how to file a claim. They can't hide the open neutral. It will all
be documented and they will probably depreciate the damaged items and pay
the difference. You also need to contact your insurance company, that's why
we have it.

--
Steve Barker

wrote in message
ups.com...
How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?

How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.


On 10 Feb 2007 21:09:49 -0800, wrote:

How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?

In article , Tazz wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit B,
thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article . com, wrote:
[snip]
Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?

IMO -- first step should be to contact your homeowner's insurance company.
Have them reimburse the losses. Then *they* get to fight with the utility over
who's going to pay for it.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

When my dad was still alive, and living in Penna, he had a similar
event. Half of his small town had the event, and the power company
just said send us a bill. His wasn't quite so bad, he lost major
appliances, refrigerator, TV etc. but, the power company behaved
admirably.

Gerry Atrick wrote:
On 10 Feb 2007 21:09:49 -0800, wrote:


How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?


I had this exact same thing happen in my garage. Fortunately this was
ONLY the garage (on a separate overhead cable). I found the problem
when I flipped on the lights and noticed some of them were real dim
and other real bright. I plugged in an electric drill and it just
hummed. Then my 120v air compressor kicked in, and it too only
hummed, but that same moment several of the CF lightbulbs got real
bright and fried. In the end, I lost 6 CF lightbulbs, two regular
bulbs, the garage radio (which I have set ro come on when I turn on
the lights), and the charger for my cordless drill which was plugged
in at the time. Luckily the drill and air compressor were fine after
the neutral was fixed.

I cant tell you about the legal matters, and think that it might be an
insurance issue. However, I do question how all those things could be
burned out. They couldn't have had all those tv's radios, computer,
and everything turned on, unless they really waste a lof ot power.

I can see the alarm clocks, fish tank pump, furnace, water pump (if it
tried to kick in), and possible some large appliances such as
refrigerators, microwave, etc. But dont just assume that all tv sets
computers, etc are bad. If they were turned off, they should be fine.
You also mentioned a digital camera. That makes no sense, they run on
batteries. It is likely some if not most of the large appliances
survived as they are more forgiving. Like the air compressor in my
garage. What happens is the load is extremely unbalanced when the
neutral is removed. So, some things get up to 240V while others get
as little as 10V or so, (like my electric drill which only hummed).
Your well pump most likely hummed because it got too little voltage,
and likely will work fine once the neutral is fixed.

Once the power is normal, you or they will have to check each
electrical device. Those that were not turned on should be fine.
Some others may have survived too. I bet that pump will work. If it
hummed, it got too little voltage. Too much would have fried the
motor and there would be no hum at all.

Of course, there is some device that really took the brunt of the load
and that is what caused the smoke. Which is it? Possibly a furnace
motor? Lots of smoke usually means a large motor. Small electronics
normally just burn out and die instantly.

As for the computer, a new power supply may be all you need.


I'd suspect that the TV's just *might* be fried, unless they are very
old. There's no real "off" setting on a TV with a remote control, only
a "standby." Anything inside the case that's energized with the power
off may be toasty.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Probably didn't get a full 220V, but if there were unbalanced loads,
some equip. would see very low voltage and others would see very high.
The only items that would work correctly would be pure 240V appliances
(water heater, A/C, etc.)

nate

Tazz wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.


On 10 Feb 2007 21:09:49 -0800, wrote:


How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?


--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Tazz wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit B,
thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.


What impact would the fact that neutral was tied to a ground lead on
the service panel have? Would that not negate the two out of phase 120
volt lines from placing 240 on the circuits by placing neutral at ground
potential? Just curious.

In article , Ken wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Tazz
wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit
B,
thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.


What impact would the fact that neutral was tied to a ground lead on
the service panel have? Would that not negate the two out of phase 120
volt lines from placing 240 on the circuits by placing neutral at ground
potential? Just curious.

No. First of all, the service may not have been properly grounded, in which
case all bets are off. Second, even if the service *was* properly grounded,
there are still two return paths: through the opposite leg of the service back
to the transformer, or through the earth back to the transformer's ground rod.
Guess which one has by far the least resistance (and therefore the highest
current flow).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Ken wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Tazz

wrote:

How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit

B,

thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.


What impact would the fact that neutral was tied to a ground lead on
the service panel have? Would that not negate the two out of phase 120
volt lines from placing 240 on the circuits by placing neutral at ground
potential? Just curious.


No. First of all, the service may not have been properly grounded, in which
case all bets are off. Second, even if the service *was* properly grounded,
there are still two return paths: through the opposite leg of the service back
to the transformer, or through the earth back to the transformer's ground rod.
Guess which one has by far the least resistance (and therefore the highest
current flow).


This is why it's never a bad idea to go overboard with the grounding
rods, if you can.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

wrote:
How does the electric comany deal with this situation?


You call the insurance company and the power company and let them fight
it out.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

On 10 Feb 2007 21:09:49 -0800, wrote:

How does the electric comany deal with this situation?

My parents just lost a neutral wire from the pole to the breaker box
in the house. Everyone had left the house by 7:00 AM that morning. My
brother stopped by at about 5 PM to find the house filled with smoke
and smelling like an electrical fire. He immediately turned off the
main breaker and waited for my father to get home. My father turned
off every individual breaker them turned the main back on. Then he
started turning on one at a time. The water pump (110VAC) would just
sit there and hum. However, the air compressor in the garage (220VAC)
worked just fine. At this point it made sense that we lost the neutral
connection to the pole.

EVERYTHING in the house was fried... Phones, the stove, all TV's, the
dishwasher, the computer, fish tank pump, DVD player, surroud sound,
flouresent light fixtures, cell chargers, routers, alarm clocks,
digital camera, etc....

The dead of winter in PA brought the house to 47 degrees F since the
furnace quit. Dad kept everything turned off and called the electric
company right away. They were there within an hour (not bad for RURAL
PA.) They confirmed that the neutral was bad and ran a line above
ground from the pole to the house.

We are just thankfull that the house didn't burn to the ground.

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?


IMHO, give your home owners policy company a call. I don't think you
are the very first person who had lost a neutral from a pole.

Just curious, I'm guessing this is an older house without a ground rod
and/or water grounding. Am I right?


tom @ www.YourMoneySavingTips.com

Well, nothing was turned on. It doesn't have to be to be fried. For
example, the TV still draws a small amount of power if it is not on.
(Before it fried, you could hear a relay click when plugging in/
unplugging the TV).The camera makes perfect sense if it is charging in
the docking station -

The computer doesn't turn on. Maybe it is the PS? The monitor is fried
because it is always on and it just goes to sleep. The central vac was
not on and that is toasted.

I am not lying about anything... Just stating what has happened.

The power must have been like this all day. The ice cream in the
freezer was very soft... almost milky.

writes:
Well, nothing was turned on. It doesn't have to be to be fried. For
example, the TV still draws a small amount of power if it is not on.
(Before it fried, you could hear a relay click when plugging in/
unplugging the TV).The camera makes perfect sense if it is charging in
the docking station -

The computer doesn't turn on. Maybe it is the PS? The monitor is fried
because it is always on and it just goes to sleep. The central vac was
not on and that is toasted.

I am not lying about anything... Just stating what has happened.

On the other hand, calling everything "toasted" is a little bit extreme.
There's a difference between "no longer works" and "burnt".

For example, the central vac system contains a transformer that provides
low-voltage power for the circuitry that turns on the motor when a hose
is plugged into a wall outlet. This is powered all the time. Excessive
voltage would cause that transformer to saturate and draw too much
current. If you're lucky, this just blew a fuse or tripped a circuit
breaker for the transformer, and resetting the breaker or replacing the
fuse is all that's needed to make the central vac work again. If you're
unlucky, the control transformer burned out and needs replacing - but
this is still minor compared to replacing the entire canister unit.

Dave

I understand sharing neutrals. I just have never seen it in a
residence.

Everything that the original poster mentioned seems to me that ALL
neutrals were shared on every circuit. Or there was another problem.
Possibly a surge.




On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:16:32 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tazz wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit B,
thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.

In article . com,
says...

Now is going to be the fun part... Getting the Electric company to
reimburse for the damage. Any advice on how to deal with this? Does
the electric comany prorate how much items are worth based on the age?
Or should we expect them to settle with us?

Personally, I'd at least look into filing a claim on my homeowner's
insurance, since it has replacement-cost coverage, and would cover
getting the electrical-fire smell out of the house. Then the
insurance company's subrogation department can go after the power
company.

If the power company turns out to be reasonable to deal with and
offers replcement cost up front, great.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh
"My other bike is a car."

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:38:31 -0600, Tazz
wrote:

I understand sharing neutrals. I just have never seen it in a
residence.

Everything that the original poster mentioned seems to me that ALL
neutrals were shared on every circuit. Or there was another problem.
Possibly a surge.

I've heard of shared neutrals, but haven't seen it except one case of
erroneous DIY work. I've since fixed that.




On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:16:32 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , Tazz wrote:
How would you get 220v to your 110v outlets unless your sevice was a 3
phase service and everything shared the neutral?

Just curious.

Two 120V devices on opposite legs of the service, plugged in and turned on
(clocks, for example). Their neutrals are tied together at a common point in
the service panel, of course (the neutral bus bar). Current flows from the
service through the hot wire of Circuit A to one device, through the neutral
back the service panel, through the neutral wire of Circuit B to the other
device, and finally back to the transformer through the hot wire of Circuit B,
thus completing a 240V circuit through the two appliances.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

Doug Miller wrote:

IMO -- first step should be to contact your homeowner's insurance company.
Have them reimburse the losses. Then *they* get to fight with the utility over
who's going to pay for it.

The downside to that is that you then have to pay your deductible, which
by rights the power company should be paying. You may also lose any
"no-claim" discounts you might have with the home insurance company.

Chris

In article , cbf123
@mail.usask.ca says...
Doug Miller wrote:

IMO -- first step should be to contact your homeowner's insurance company.
Have them reimburse the losses. Then *they* get to fight with the utility over
who's going to pay for it.

The downside to that is that you then have to pay your deductible, which
by rights the power company should be paying. You may also lose any
"no-claim" discounts you might have with the home insurance company.

If they collect from the utility company you'll get your deductible
and quite likely "no-claim" status back. If not, it's time to find
another insurance company.

--
Keith

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:21:26 -0600, Gerry Atrick
wrote:

On 11 Feb 2007 07:22:41 -0800, wrote:

Well, nothing was turned on. It doesn't have to be to be fried. For
example, the TV still draws a small amount of power if it is not on.
(Before it fried, you could hear a relay click when plugging in/
unplugging the TV).The camera makes perfect sense if it is charging in
the docking station -

The computer doesn't turn on. Maybe it is the PS? The monitor is fried
because it is always on and it just goes to sleep. The central vac was
not on and that is toasted.

I am not lying about anything... Just stating what has happened.

The power must have been like this all day. The ice cream in the
freezer was very soft... almost milky.


Which is exactly why I have my computer and all its components on a
power strip and when I turn it off, it's completely off. My electric
bill is high enough. Think I'll start doing the same with the tv's if
they are always drawing power. I dont know why they make things that
way. Apparently they are in cahoots with the electric utilities.
Yeah, I suppose it saves a few seconds of time starting them......
like I care if the tv takes a few extra seconds to warm up !!!!


The IR receiver in the TV does have to be active, to be able to
respond to an ON command from a remote control. Some TVs have clocks
in them, another need for continuous power.

I wish they'd work properly with hard power switches. Many forget to
come on.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

Mark Lloyd writes:

The IR receiver in the TV does have to be active, to be able to
respond to an ON command from a remote control. Some TVs have clocks
in them, another need for continuous power.

Most CRT-based TVs from the last several decades keep the heaters in the
CRT somewhat warm when the TV is "off". It speeds warmup and also
reduces thermal shock to the heater.

My TV also loses its channel programming when the power is off. That
might be less common these days, since flash RAM is cheap.

Dave

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:01:06 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

Mark Lloyd writes:

The IR receiver in the TV does have to be active, to be able to
respond to an ON command from a remote control. Some TVs have clocks
in them, another need for continuous power.

Most CRT-based TVs from the last several decades keep the heaters in the
CRT somewhat warm when the TV is "off". It speeds warmup and also
reduces thermal shock to the heater.

My TV also loses its channel programming when the power is off. That
might be less common these days, since flash RAM is cheap.

Dave

I don't think I've ever seem one that actually lost the channel
programming, but I have seen one (an RCA set made about 1981*) that
would always be on the lowest numbered programmed channel (probably 2
if you get that) after a power failure.

Most seem to remember everything except that they're supposed to be
on. In this case interfering with use with a cable box (with switched
outlet, as used to be common). You'd still need the TV's remote.

* RCA sets from that time wouldn't work with universal remote
controls. We had to get a factory replacement for about $70 (*instead
of the $10 ones at Wal-Mart).
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

I don't think I've ever seem one that actually lost the channel
programming

I've never seen one that didn't, and we've had a variety of brands. It
is a real PITA living in a somewhat rural area, where power failures
are a little more frequent. I don't mind using auto set, but nuking
the Spanish language / no interest channels is time consuming.