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Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave




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Zephyr wrote:
Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a
carbon monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and
found out recently when they checked out her basement and found CO at
700 ppm. She had been sleeping with the door and window closed and
it was making her perpetually ill. Here's the scary part, she said
she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO alarms in her house. even though the
basement was at 700 ppm. (which according to the specs on my kidde
alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes) none of her alarms sounded. ( I
don't know what brand she had)
This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to
function correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online
some say that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because
the CO is mixed in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the
person who checked out my co workers house said that the CO
generally falls, and so the detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


I think:
1. I'd like to know the brand and model of the detectors that failed your
friend.
2. I'd like to know if she's suing the manufacturer and everybody he ever
knew.
3. I'd like to know how you tested yours.

As to your specific question:

There was a long discussion on this very topic sometime back. One group was
adamant for an elevated position, another was equally adamant for a lower
location.

The discussion died out as one of the groups died out. I forget which.

For the ultimate in peace of mind, get two.


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On Feb 9, 3:30 pm, "HeyBub" wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
Hey folks,


I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a
carbon monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and
found out recently when they checked out her basement and found CO at
700 ppm. She had been sleeping with the door and window closed and
it was making her perpetually ill. Here's the scary part, she said
she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO alarms in her house. even though the
basement was at 700 ppm. (which according to the specs on my kidde
alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes) none of her alarms sounded. ( I
don't know what brand she had)
This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to
function correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online
some say that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because
the CO is mixed in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the
person who checked out my co workers house said that the CO
generally falls, and so the detectors should be lower to the ground.


what do you all think?


This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


I think:
1. I'd like to know the brand and model of the detectors that failed your
friend.
2. I'd like to know if she's suing the manufacturer and everybody he ever
knew.
3. I'd like to know how you tested yours.

As to your specific question:

There was a long discussion on this very topic sometime back. One group was
adamant for an elevated position, another was equally adamant for a lower
location.

The discussion died out as one of the groups died out. I forget which.

For the ultimate in peace of mind, get two.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Would also be important to know how old the detector was. I'm not
sure what I'd do in this position. With levels that high, one would
think the detector would go off in either location. Personally,
since I don't spend much time on the ceiling, I have mine about 4 ft
of the floor. I have one in the basement, about 15 ft from the
furnace/water heater, another one in the master bedroom. I think it's
a very good idea to have more than one, as like anything they aren't
100%.

Your friend should consider contacting the Consumer Product Safety
Commission, they may be interested in checking it out.


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On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave




Just four days ago and entire family (mother, father, daughter and six
pets were found dead in Las Vegas. The power had been cut off by
Nevada Power. The family ran a gas powered generator in the garage
(apparently with a door open to allow a power cord in the watch
television).

I was racking my head trying to remember what was said about these
device failures (sensor element?).

The story is he
http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=1632117



--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."
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Zephyr wrote:
.. However, the person who checked out my co workers house said that the
CO
generally falls, and so the detectors should be lower to the ground.


They don't know what they are talking about. I have been involved in a
CO incident, those who were asleep on the floor were fine, those who were
sitting up playing cards late, got hit hard.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit





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On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:19:18 -0800, Oren wrote:

I was racking my head trying to remember what was said about these
device failures (sensor element?).


This may have been it.

"GE Security Carbon Monoxide Alarms. The problem is they fail to
detect carbon monoxide after one year of operation due to an internal
software error. And there's no "end of life" signal or other
indication that there's a problem.

Several security system companies sold these alarms from for about
$49. If you have one, contact the installer or service provider to
arrange for a replacement. Here's GE Security's phone number:
800-648-7422. "

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."
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If you took high school chemistry, the answer should be obvious.

CO is somewhat lighter than pure O2 (the ratio of 28/32 but it's not THAT
much lighter. CO2 which "settles" is heavier than O2 by the ratio 44/32.

I have always preferred the digital CO detector. Some perfectly normal
activities will generate enough CO to put the digital models off zero. (In
our case it was cooking on electric stove.) A non-zero reading "for cause"
is a confidence builder: you know it's doing something other that flashing
every 3 minutes.

As far as placement is concerned, a good candidate is "higher up" in the
same room where the CO is most likely originate.

A good location for a second detector is near the bedrooms and, again, high
up.

While I can see why folks are upset that the CO detector didn't seem to do
its job, the more important question is what went wrong to generate 700 ppm
of CO in the first place. CO poisoning cases have happened from time to
time as far back as I can remember. Find the cause of the CO and fix it.


Some years ago an IDIOT of a gas company technician "red tagged" my water
heater because her detector found 44ppm by sticking the probe in the space
between the "funnel" and the actual vent at the top of the gas fired water
heater. (IOW: the actual exhaust didn't have enough CO to cause more
than minor symptoms.)

It takes a serious problem to put 700 ppm of CO into the room air.


"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
. ..
Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out

recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4

minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is

mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave






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On Feb 9, 4:36�pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:19:18 -0800, Oren wrote:
I was racking my head trying to remember what was said about these
device failures (sensor element?).


This may have been it.

"GE Security Carbon Monoxide Alarms. *The problem is they fail to
detect carbon monoxide after one year of operation due to an internal
software error. And there's no "end of life" signal or other
indication that there's a problem.

Several security system companies sold these alarms from for about
$49. If you have one, contact the installer or service provider to
arrange for a replacement. Here's GE Security's phone number:
800-648-7422. "

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."


Your better off buying 2 different manufacturers units one in each
sleeping area or level.

At least one should be not just a alarm but a digital readout of
level, thats highly useful/

I too was involved in a incident got really sick.

The hot water tanks chimney flue cap cracked, water got in between
chimney structure and ceramic liner, it broke fell in clogged chimney.

nothing beats rountine inspection of home on a regular basis looking
for troubles BEFORE they occur!

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In article , "Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote:

however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?


I think you shouldn't take that person's advice. The *fact* is that, at room
temperature, the density of CO is only slightly lower than that of air:

Installation of Carbon Monoxide Alarm:

The density of Carbon Monoxide at 20 °C (68 °C) is 0.96716 which is slightly
lighter than the density of air (1.00). However, at 0 °C or 32 °F the density
is increased to 1.250 which is much heavier than air. Practically speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room temperature.
CO permeates a room much like the scent of perfume dispersing uniformly in all
directions and in effect engulfs a room. Install your CO Alarm within 40 ft of
all rooms used for sleeping purposes.

http://www.s-tech.ca/gas/index.htm

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave





Wow not good! Do you have a link to the article? This is clearly
news worthy material.

tom @ www.Consolidated-Loans.info



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Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Zephyr"

...


The density of Carbon Monoxide at 20 °C (68 °C) is 0.96716 which is
slightly
lighter than the density of air (1.00). However, at 0 °C or 32 °F the
density
is increased to 1.250 which is much heavier than air. Practically
speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.


Practically speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.
CO permeates a room much like the scent of perfume dispersing uniformly in
all
directions and in effect engulfs a room.


My reference says:

@ 0º C and 760 mm Hg.

Air: 1.2928 gms/liter
CO: 1.2500 gms/liter

Which put it still lighter than air a 0º C. I think you missed the part
about CO also becoming more dense at colder temperatures.

My personal experience is that it does not disperse evenly and that
there is a significant difference in real life. The unintended experiment
that I was part of involved five people playing cards and about 30 sleeping
on the floor in a cabin with a fireplace at one end and a furnace at the
other. Two of those playing cards went to the hospital, the others had they
typical headaches, while no one sleeping on the floor had any noticeable ill
effects.

I would seriously disagree with your suggestion to ignore the
instructions that come with the detectors and their placement. I will add
that the instructions often call for placement at a minimum distance from
the wall or ceiling. There is a dead air space in those corners.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit



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Do I DARE ask how you generated CO "cooking" on an electric stove?
I put quotes around the cooking word because I can't imagine any serious
cooking going on with an electric stove. But, that's another group.

--
Steve Barker

"John Gilmer" wrote in message
...
If you took high school chemistry, the answer should be obvious.

CO is somewhat lighter than pure O2 (the ratio of 28/32 but it's not THAT
much lighter. CO2 which "settles" is heavier than O2 by the ratio 44/32.

I have always preferred the digital CO detector. Some perfectly normal
activities will generate enough CO to put the digital models off zero.
(In
our case it was cooking on electric stove.) A non-zero reading "for
cause"
is a confidence builder: you know it's doing something other that flashing
every 3 minutes.



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"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Do I DARE ask how you generated CO "cooking" on an electric stove?
I put quotes around the cooking word because I can't imagine any serious
cooking going on with an electric stove. But, that's another group.


I guess I burned something. Don't know. I had the digital CO detector
right in the basement close to the furnace and the water heater for months
and the "peak" was always "000".

Had it on the first floor for a week and the "peak" was "010." Not really
high enough to be of any concern but makes for a good story!

I think I was able to get a higher reading by burning incense near the
detector. The problem, of course, is that the things response quite slowly
because they use a complicated organic molecule (the "reacts" like a blood
component) to do the actual detection.


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In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:
If you took high school chemistry, the answer should be obvious.

CO is somewhat lighter than pure O2 (the ratio of 28/32 but it's not THAT
much lighter. CO2 which "settles" is heavier than O2 by the ratio 44/32.


And if *you* had taken high school chemistry, you'd be comparing to N2 (79% of
the atmosphere) instead of to O2 (20%) -- or looking up the actual density
values in the HCP.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Zephyr"

...


The density of Carbon Monoxide at 20 °C (68 °C) is 0.96716 which is
slightly
lighter than the density of air (1.00). However, at 0 °C or 32 °F the
density
is increased to 1.250 which is much heavier than air. Practically
speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.


Practically speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.
CO permeates a room much like the scent of perfume dispersing uniformly in
all
directions and in effect engulfs a room.


My reference says:

@ 0º C and 760 mm Hg.

Air: 1.2928 gms/liter
CO: 1.2500 gms/liter

Which put it still lighter than air a 0º C. I think you missed the part
about CO also becoming more dense at colder temperatures.


Well, it does appear that the source I cited didn't get the density figures
correct. You did.


My personal experience is that it does not disperse evenly and that
there is a significant difference in real life. The unintended experiment
that I was part of involved five people playing cards and about 30 sleeping
on the floor in a cabin with a fireplace at one end and a furnace at the
other. Two of those playing cards went to the hospital, the others had they
typical headaches, while no one sleeping on the floor had any noticeable ill
effects.

I would seriously disagree with your suggestion to ignore the
instructions that come with the detectors and their placement.


Excuse me? Where the hell did I suggest that?

I will add
that the instructions often call for placement at a minimum distance from
the wall or ceiling. There is a dead air space in those corners.



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


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Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Zephyr"

...


The density of Carbon Monoxide at 20 °C (68 °C) is 0.96716 which is
slightly
lighter than the density of air (1.00). However, at 0 °C or 32 °F
the density
is increased to 1.250 which is much heavier than air. Practically
speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.


Practically speaking,
placing the CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room
temperature.
CO permeates a room much like the scent of perfume dispersing
uniformly in all
directions and in effect engulfs a room.


My reference says:

@ 0º C and 760 mm Hg.

Air: 1.2928 gms/liter
CO: 1.2500 gms/liter

Which put it still lighter than air a 0º C. I think you missed
the part about CO also becoming more dense at colder temperatures.


Well, it does appear that the source I cited didn't get the density
figures
correct. You did.


My personal experience is that it does not disperse evenly and
that there is a significant difference in real life. The unintended
experiment that I was part of involved five people playing cards and
about 30 sleeping on the floor in a cabin with a fireplace at one
end and a furnace at the other. Two of those playing cards went to
the hospital, the others had they typical headaches, while no one
sleeping on the floor had any noticeable ill effects.

I would seriously disagree with your suggestion to ignore the
instructions that come with the detectors and their placement.


Excuse me? Where the hell did I suggest that?


Not directly, but since every such device I have seen has directions to
place it high, your statement indicating "Practically speaking, placing the
CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room temperature." would
indirectly conflict with those instructions. It would appear that it was
not your intent to do so. It was my intent to clarify that and I fear I
was not as careful in my wording as I should have been. Please accept my
apology for that.


I will add
that the instructions often call for placement at a minimum distance
from the wall or ceiling. There is a dead air space in those
corners.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit



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"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com inspired greatness with:

what do you all think?



RTFM

http://www.kiddeus.com/utcfs/ws-384/...-B(9CO5)en.pdf

Mount it at eye level.


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In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:



I would seriously disagree with your suggestion to ignore the
instructions that come with the detectors and their placement.


Excuse me? Where the hell did I suggest that?


Not directly, but since every such device I have seen has directions to
place it high, your statement indicating "Practically speaking, placing the
CO Alarm high or low is not a major concern at room temperature." would
indirectly conflict with those instructions.


Please read more carefully -- that's not *my* statement. That's from the web
site that I cited. Any errors there are theirs, not mine.

It would appear that it was
not your intent to do so. It was my intent to clarify that and I fear I
was not as careful in my wording as I should have been. Please accept my
apology for that.


Thanks.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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And if *you* had taken high school chemistry, you'd be comparing to N2

(79% of
the atmosphere) instead of to O2 (20%) -- or looking up the actual density
values in the HCP.


Yeah. But that would have required that I still remembered the atomic
weight of nitrogen. I figued O2 was "gud enuf."



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.



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I had a old computer power supply overheat, and set off the CO
detector not long ago. At least that APPEARED to cause the alarm....

Any burning action can cause elevated levels



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I installed one in the shop I worked in when we installed an unvented LP
radiant heater. The level would stay at zero even with the diesel powered
torpedo heater going. BUT start a push mower for 2 minutes and that would
drive that thing wild! If you want to test one, just take it to the garage
and start a small engine.

--
Steve Barker

wrote in message
oups.com...
I had a old computer power supply overheat, and set off the CO
detector not long ago. At least that APPEARED to cause the alarm....

Any burning action can cause elevated levels



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On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?


A molecule of carbon monoxide weighs 28. C=12 and 0=16.

70%+ (78?)of the air is nitrogen and a molecule of that weighs 28.
N=114x2.

So they weight the same.

02 weighs 32 (2x16) so that is a bit heavier than the the other two.
So I would think that if anything CO would rise, but slowly.

The instructions that came with my CO detector said iirc that heightt
was not important. I suppose I would still avoid corners, out of the
air flow, so the very top or bottom of the wall is a bad idea.

My CO detector is plugged in at the only unused receptacle, which is
about 12 inches above the floor and it once went off at 3 in the
morning, and I awoke with a headache. Definitely CO.

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


No offense but I eschew pdf files.

They sell bags of CO with which to test the detector. Flat foil bags
a couple inches square. I think I bought one at a hamfest, or got it
free somewhere, and iirc when it followed the directions (and opened
it near my detector) the detector went off.

Dave




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In article ,
Joseph Meehan wrote:
...snipped...
My personal experience is that it does not disperse evenly and that
there is a significant difference in real life. The unintended experiment
that I was part of involved five people playing cards and about 30 sleeping
on the floor in a cabin with a fireplace at one end and a furnace at the
other. Two of those playing cards went to the hospital, the others had they
typical headaches, while no one sleeping on the floor had any noticeable ill
effects.

I would seriously disagree with your suggestion to ignore the
instructions that come with the detectors and their placement. I will add
that the instructions often call for placement at a minimum distance from
the wall or ceiling. There is a dead air space in those corners.


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit


I would agree (and hope!) that the manufacturers research and know enough
about their product to recommend the best placement. If their
recommendations are _not_ followed, it would be difficult to justify
complaining about any failure of the device to detect CO

I wonder, how much of a difference there is in the respiration rate
of a sleeping vs an awake person sitting at a card table, and it it
might account for experience you recounted.





--
When the game is over, the pawn and the king are returned to the same box.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf.lonestar.org
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mm wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

...

A molecule of carbon monoxide weighs 28. C=12 and 0=16.

70%+ (78?)of the air is nitrogen and a molecule of that weighs 28.
N=114x2.

So they weight the same.


It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that is
important.


The instructions that came with my CO detector said iirc that heightt
was not important.


From the link:
" The CO sensor shall be of a fuel cell design and shall meet the
sensitivity requirements of Underwriters Laboratories UL2034 Single and
Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms. The alarm can be installed on the
surface of any wall or ceiling following the UL/NFPA/Manufacturer's
recommended placement guidelines.

So what are the UL/NFPA/Manufacturer guidelines?



I suppose I would still avoid corners, out of the
air flow, so the very top or bottom of the wall is a bad idea.

My CO detector is plugged in at the only unused receptacle, which is
about 12 inches above the floor and it once went off at 3 in the
morning, and I awoke with a headache. Definitely CO.


If the detector was mounted higher, you might have avoided that
headache, but at least you avoid far worse.


This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


No offense but I eschew pdf files.

They sell bags of CO with which to test the detector. Flat foil bags
a couple inches square. I think I bought one at a hamfest, or got it
free somewhere, and iirc when it followed the directions (and opened
it near my detector) the detector went off.

Dave


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit


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I have a CO detector on every level of my home as recommended by the
fire department. The directions say to place the detector near the
ceiling at least 10 feet from gas appliances. Also, these units
should be replaced every 10 years. Stop at your local FD--they will
be happy to give some tips.

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave





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In article , "John Gilmer" wrote:


And if *you* had taken high school chemistry, you'd be comparing to N2

(79% of
the atmosphere) instead of to O2 (20%) -- or looking up the actual density
values in the HCP.


Yeah. But that would have required that I still remembered the atomic
weight of nitrogen. I figued O2 was "gud enuf."


Oxygen is 14% heavier than nitrogen (16 vs 14). And when you consider that the
molecular weight of CO is virtually the same as that of N2 -- but
significantly *less* than that of O2 -- it makes quite a difference.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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In article .com, " wrote:
I had a old computer power supply overheat, and set off the CO
detector not long ago. At least that APPEARED to cause the alarm....

Any burning action can cause elevated levels

Not necessarily due to CO, however -- other chemicals can cause false alarms.

We had a good example of that a few years ago. We had been using a chemical
paint stripper in the basement (no choice -- long story, but the thing we were
stripping is part of the house, and couldn't be carried outside), and about
four hours after we finished the CO detector in the furnace room (fifty feet
and two rooms away) began sounding. Because of the distance, and the
separation in time, we didn't connect that to the paint stripper, and called
the fire department right away. They came out with a sniffer, and found no
problems. The firefighters noticed the lingering odor of paint stripper, and
suggested that was probably the cause of the false alarm, which was confirmed
by a phone call to the manufacturer the next day.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
mm wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

A molecule of carbon monoxide weighs 28. C=12 and 0=16.

70%+ (78?)of the air is nitrogen and a molecule of that weighs 28.
N=114x2.

So they weight the same.


It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that is
important.


Well, yes, but a rule of thumb for gases is that density at standard
temperature and pressure is approximately proportional to molecular weight.

Taking air to be a mixture of 78% N2 (molecular weight 28), 21% O2 (32), and
1% Ar (18), then CO, with a molecular weight of 28, would be expected on that
basis to have a density 0.97 that of air.

The actual figure is 0.969 (1.25 g/l for CO vs 1.29 for air).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Doug Miller wrote:
It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that is
important.


Well, yes, but a rule of thumb for gases is that density at standard
temperature and pressure is approximately proportional to molecular
weight.

Taking air to be a mixture of 78% N2 (molecular weight 28), 21% O2
(32), and 1% Ar (18), then CO, with a molecular weight of 28, would
be expected on that
basis to have a density 0.97 that of air.

The actual figure is 0.969 (1.25 g/l for CO vs 1.29 for air).


The problem with all this figuring and carry-the-two business is that air is
a mixture - a relatively constant mixture. If not, then the bottom 2.25 feet
of a room would be all Nitrogen, the next 2.5 feet Oxygen, and so on. We'd
have to walk around bent over (toddlers would have to walk on stilts) or we
would perish.


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HeyBub wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that
is important.


Well, yes, but a rule of thumb for gases is that density at standard
temperature and pressure is approximately proportional to molecular
weight.

Taking air to be a mixture of 78% N2 (molecular weight 28), 21% O2
(32), and 1% Ar (18), then CO, with a molecular weight of 28, would
be expected on that
basis to have a density 0.97 that of air.

The actual figure is 0.969 (1.25 g/l for CO vs 1.29 for air).


The problem with all this figuring and carry-the-two business is that
air is a mixture - a relatively constant mixture. If not, then the
bottom 2.25 feet of a room would be all Nitrogen, the next 2.5 feet
Oxygen, and so on. We'd have to walk around bent over (toddlers would
have to walk on stilts) or we would perish.


If we fed the gases individually into a room then that could be a
problem can easily leak into a room in a way that caused it to stay more or
concentrated, much like cold air when you open a window in winter or propane
gas leaking and collecting in a basement.

The problem is real and it does happen. If you really want to check it
out stop by your local fire station and ask them about it.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit





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"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
. ..
Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out
recently when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She
had been sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her
perpetually ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2
smoke 1/2 CO alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700
ppm. (which according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound
in 4 minutes) none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she
had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is
mixed in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who
checked out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so
the detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave


The instructions that came with my unit said to place it about 3 feet above
the floor.

I place mine on a wall 3 feet off the floor about 3 feet from my wood
burning fireplace.


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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:32:03 -0500, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

..

A molecule of carbon monoxide weighs 28. C=12 and 0=16.

70%+ (78?)of the air is nitrogen and a molecule of that weighs 28.
N=114x2.


Oops. N=14x2.

So they weight the same.


It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that is
important.


Yeah but that varies the same for each.


The instructions that came with my CO detector said iirc that heightt
was not important.


From the link:
" The CO sensor shall be of a fuel cell design and shall meet the
sensitivity requirements of Underwriters Laboratories UL2034 Single and
Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms. The alarm can be installed on the
surface of any wall or ceiling following the UL/NFPA/Manufacturer's
recommended placement guidelines.

So what are the UL/NFPA/Manufacturer guidelines?


LOL. Good question. What is the point of saying what they did.


I suppose I would still avoid corners, out of the
air flow, so the very top or bottom of the wall is a bad idea.

My CO detector is plugged in at the only unused receptacle, which is
about 12 inches above the floor and it once went off at 3 in the
morning, and I awoke with a headache. Definitely CO.


If the detector was mounted higher, you might have avoided that
headache, but at least you avoid far worse.


Well, it was high compared to the basement. :-) It's actually almost
as high as my nose when I'm lying down. :-)


This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


No offense but I eschew pdf files.

They sell bags of CO with which to test the detector. Flat foil bags
a couple inches square. I think I bought one at a hamfest, or got it
free somewhere, and iirc when it followed the directions (and opened
it near my detector) the detector went off.

Dave


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mm wrote:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:32:03 -0500, "Joseph Meehan"
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:21:15 -0500, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email
address.com wrote:

..

A molecule of carbon monoxide weighs 28. C=12 and 0=16.

70%+ (78?)of the air is nitrogen and a molecule of that weighs 28.
N=114x2.


Oops. N=14x2.

So they weight the same.


It is weight per unit of volume at the ambient temperature that is
important.


Yeah but that varies the same for each.


Not exactly, but I am not sure it plays a big part here.



The instructions that came with my CO detector said iirc that
heightt was not important.


From the link:
" The CO sensor shall be of a fuel cell design and shall meet the
sensitivity requirements of Underwriters Laboratories UL2034 Single
and Multiple Station Carbon Monoxide Alarms. The alarm can be
installed on the surface of any wall or ceiling following the
UL/NFPA/Manufacturer's recommended placement guidelines.

So what are the UL/NFPA/Manufacturer guidelines?


LOL. Good question. What is the point of saying what they did.


I suppose I would still avoid corners, out of the
air flow, so the very top or bottom of the wall is a bad idea.

My CO detector is plugged in at the only unused receptacle, which is
about 12 inches above the floor and it once went off at 3 in the
morning, and I awoke with a headache. Definitely CO.


If the detector was mounted higher, you might have avoided that
headache, but at least you avoid far worse.


Well, it was high compared to the basement. :-) It's actually almost
as high as my nose when I'm lying down. :-)


This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf

No offense but I eschew pdf files.

They sell bags of CO with which to test the detector. Flat foil
bags a couple inches square. I think I bought one at a hamfest, or
got it free somewhere, and iirc when it followed the directions
(and opened it near my detector) the detector went off.

Dave


--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit



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On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:43:25 -0600, "Freckles"
wrote:


"Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote in message
...
Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out
recently when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She
had been sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her
perpetually ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2
smoke 1/2 CO alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700
ppm. (which according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound
in 4 minutes) none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she
had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is
mixed in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who
checked out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so
the detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I have
http://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/As...O5%20sheet.pdf


Dave


The instructions that came with my unit said to place it about 3 feet above
the floor.

I place mine on a wall 3 feet off the floor about 3 feet from my wood
burning fireplace.



3 feet makes sense, since you are most likely to become overcome, and
not notice the simptoms, when you are sleeping. That seems about head
height.

I have more than one in my house, main one is a smoke/co combination
unit outside my bedroom and the second is a co/gas detector in my
lower levels.

But this is just me....

tom @ www.YourMoneySavingTips.com

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As mentioned above by "HeyBub", the stuff we breath is is relatively
uniform mixture of several gases of different molecular weights. Here
is a reference that might provide some additional explanation:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm

Those guys are scientists!!


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This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.


There should be instruction in the package telling you where to put
the thing. If you don't beleive them, get two, and put one high and
the other low. It's not like they're expensive.
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On Feb 10, 8:42 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Oxygen is 14% heavier than nitrogen (16 vs 14). And when you consider that the
molecular weight of CO is virtually the same as that of N2 -- but
significantly *less* than that of O2 -- it makes quite a difference.


But the oxygen and nitrogen don't separate out of the air, so why
would the CO?

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Which reminds me of an off-topic:

I was watching one of those 'world's worst things caught on video'
type shows the other day, and they had a piece on some sort of big v-8
hydroplane racer with two guys in an enclosed cockpit, and something
busted in the exhaust system and it wasn't until the thing sliced
through the bow of a sailboat that the copilot realized the pilot had
nodded off from carbon monoxide. So I started wondering; do the folks
who build these know you can get a carbon monoxide monitor pretty
cheap? And then I started wondering if the folks who build closed
cockpit race cars know that? Then I started wondering if the folks who
build passenger cars know that. Then I decided to take my detector off
the wall and stick it in my car to see if I got any funny numbers at
any combination of ventilation settings.... Maybe I'll get another one
just for the car for permanent. Surprising the safety folks haven't
mandated it.


On Feb 9, 3:21 pm, "Zephyr" Someguy@an email address.com wrote:
Hey folks,

I just finished talking with a co worker who is recovering from a carbon
monoxide scare. she had been sick for the past while and found out recently
when they checked out her basement and found CO at 700 ppm. She had been
sleeping with the door and window closed and it was making her perpetually
ill. Here's the scary part, she said she had these 1/2 smoke 1/2 CO
alarms in her house. even though the basement was at 700 ppm. (which
according to the specs on my kidde alarm should make it sound in 4 minutes)
none of her alarms sounded. ( I don't know what brand she had)

This made me question my own alarm. I tested it, and it seems to function
correctly.
however, I'm not sure where it should be placed. Reading online some say
that the detectors should be placed on the ceiling, because the CO is mixed
in with the warm furnace air that rises. However, the person who checked
out my co workers house said that the CO generally falls, and so the
detectors should be lower to the ground.

what do you all think?

This is the alarm I havehttp://www.kidde.com/utcfs/ws-384/Assets/9CO5%20sheet.pdf

Dave



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"z" wrote in message
oups.com...
Which reminds me of an off-topic:

I was watching one of those 'world's worst things caught on video'
type shows the other day, and they had a piece on some sort of big v-8
hydroplane racer with two guys in an enclosed cockpit, and something
busted in the exhaust system and it wasn't until the thing sliced
through the bow of a sailboat that the copilot realized the pilot had
nodded off from carbon monoxide. So I started wondering; do the folks
who build these know you can get a carbon monoxide monitor pretty
cheap? And then I started wondering if the folks who build closed
cockpit race cars know that? Then I started wondering if the folks who
build passenger cars know that. Then I decided to take my detector off
the wall and stick it in my car to see if I got any funny numbers at
any combination of ventilation settings.... Maybe I'll get another one
just for the car for permanent. Surprising the safety folks haven't
mandated it.


The people racing would rather take a chance than add 8 ounces to the
weight. How many times has a race driver succumbed to CO poison?

Driving a station wagon with the back window open was an invitation to
problems, but with modern ventilation, it is a rare occurrence. My Hyundai
Sonata though, does have AQS (air quality sensor) that will close the
outside air intake if it is drawing in exhaust from outside.

Mandate? Seems sort of silly to me unless you have some statistics on CO
poisoning in cars that justifies it.


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On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:26:19 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"z" wrote in message
roups.com...
Which reminds me of an off-topic:

I was watching one of those 'world's worst things caught on video'
type shows the other day, and they had a piece on some sort of big v-8
hydroplane racer with two guys in an enclosed cockpit, and something
busted in the exhaust system and it wasn't until the thing sliced
through the bow of a sailboat that the copilot realized the pilot had
nodded off from carbon monoxide. So I started wondering; do the folks
who build these know you can get a carbon monoxide monitor pretty
cheap? And then I started wondering if the folks who build closed
cockpit race cars know that? Then I started wondering if the folks who
build passenger cars know that. Then I decided to take my detector off
the wall and stick it in my car to see if I got any funny numbers at
any combination of ventilation settings.... Maybe I'll get another one
just for the car for permanent. Surprising the safety folks haven't
mandated it.


The people racing would rather take a chance than add 8 ounces to the
weight. How many times has a race driver succumbed to CO poison?


Hydro planes, like Ms Budweiser are interested in keeping three
points of the boat on the water. At 200+ MPH, only about the size of a
handkerchief; actually contacts with the water. Those cockpits are
modeled after f-15 fighter jet cockpits.....engines behind the driver
and the hull vented to prevent CO issues (?) . They run short runs,
so I'm not certain they might be overcome with CO.




Driving a station wagon with the back window open was an invitation to
problems, but with modern ventilation, it is a rare occurrence. My Hyundai
Sonata though, does have AQS (air quality sensor) that will close the
outside air intake if it is drawing in exhaust from outside.

Mandate? Seems sort of silly to me unless you have some statistics on CO
poisoning in cars that justifies it.

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."
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