Hi all,

I have a newer home built in 2003 with a 200 amp service. I have an
espresso machine that has a PID controller installed on it... The
controller switches the water boiler power on and off about once a
second to maintain a certain boiler temperature in the machine...

The small espresso machine appliace has a 1100w boiler.. the appliance
draws 8-10amps. When the PID controller flips the boiler power of this
device on and off in 1 second intervals, I notice all the incandescant
lights in my house tend to pulsate along with the power switching from
this small 8-10 amp device...

The device is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. There are only 2 outlets
on this circuit, and the other outlet is not used...

Now please also understand that the "pulsating" is very hard to
notice... it is more pronounced in the lighting runs furthest from my
electrical panel where it is just barely noticeable. I just happened
to put two and two together a few days after I started using this PID
device when I was in the shower one morning and barely awake.. I
thought it was just me at first but on further investigation, linked it
up with the on/off cycle of the espresso machine. On my can lights in
the kitchen (a run closer to my panel), I really have to concentrate to
actually notice it. I probably would not notice if it were not for the
pulsating rythmic effect generated by the once per second switching.

On other lighting close to the panel, it is either hardly noticable or
non-existant.

Is it common or acceptable for lighting on other circuits to feel the
effects of a small device such as this? Is this something I need to be
concerned about or is it just a minor annoyance...

Thanks for any advice you can offer..

Tony B.

If turning on motors like vacuums or oil burners, well pumps, or 120 volt
heating devices like hair dryers, etc also causes this dimming,on circuits
other than the ones that these devices are connected to, I would have the
neutral connections to your service equipment checked


"Tony B." wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I have a newer home built in 2003 with a 200 amp service. I have an
espresso machine that has a PID controller installed on it... The
controller switches the water boiler power on and off about once a
second to maintain a certain boiler temperature in the machine...

The small espresso machine appliace has a 1100w boiler.. the appliance
draws 8-10amps. When the PID controller flips the boiler power of this
device on and off in 1 second intervals, I notice all the incandescant
lights in my house tend to pulsate along with the power switching from
this small 8-10 amp device...

The device is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. There are only 2 outlets
on this circuit, and the other outlet is not used...

Now please also understand that the "pulsating" is very hard to
notice... it is more pronounced in the lighting runs furthest from my
electrical panel where it is just barely noticeable. I just happened
to put two and two together a few days after I started using this PID
device when I was in the shower one morning and barely awake.. I
thought it was just me at first but on further investigation, linked it
up with the on/off cycle of the espresso machine. On my can lights in
the kitchen (a run closer to my panel), I really have to concentrate to
actually notice it. I probably would not notice if it were not for the
pulsating rythmic effect generated by the once per second switching.

On other lighting close to the panel, it is either hardly noticable or
non-existant.

Is it common or acceptable for lighting on other circuits to feel the
effects of a small device such as this? Is this something I need to be
concerned about or is it just a minor annoyance...

Thanks for any advice you can offer..

Tony B.

Tony B. wrote:
Hi all,

I have a newer home built in 2003 with a 200 amp service. I have an
espresso machine that has a PID controller installed on it... The
controller switches the water boiler power on and off about once a
second to maintain a certain boiler temperature in the machine...

The small espresso machine appliace has a 1100w boiler.. the
appliance draws 8-10amps. When the PID controller flips the boiler
power of this device on and off in 1 second intervals, I notice all
the incandescant lights in my house tend to pulsate along with the
power switching from this small 8-10 amp device...

The device is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. There are only 2 outlets
on this circuit, and the other outlet is not used...

Now please also understand that the "pulsating" is very hard to
notice... it is more pronounced in the lighting runs furthest from my
electrical panel where it is just barely noticeable. I just happened
to put two and two together a few days after I started using this PID
device when I was in the shower one morning and barely awake.. I
thought it was just me at first but on further investigation, linked
it up with the on/off cycle of the espresso machine. On my can
lights in the kitchen (a run closer to my panel), I really have to
concentrate to actually notice it. I probably would not notice if it
were not for the pulsating rythmic effect generated by the once per
second switching.

On other lighting close to the panel, it is either hardly noticable or
non-existant.

Is it common or acceptable for lighting on other circuits to feel the
effects of a small device such as this? Is this something I need to
be concerned about or is it just a minor annoyance...

Thanks for any advice you can offer..

Tony B.


Some might be normal, that depends on how sensitive you are. However I
would want to make sure there is not a neutral problem.

Are those lights that are flickering on a dimmer? If so remember that
dimmed lights are more sensitive to this kind of situation.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

"Tony B." wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi all,

I have a newer home built in 2003 with a 200 amp service. I have an
espresso machine that has a PID controller installed on it... The
controller switches the water boiler power on and off about once a
second to maintain a certain boiler temperature in the machine...

The small espresso machine appliace has a 1100w boiler.. the appliance
draws 8-10amps. When the PID controller flips the boiler power of this
device on and off in 1 second intervals, I notice all the incandescant
lights in my house tend to pulsate along with the power switching from
this small 8-10 amp device...

The device is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. There are only 2 outlets
on this circuit, and the other outlet is not used...

Now please also understand that the "pulsating" is very hard to
notice... it is more pronounced in the lighting runs furthest from my
electrical panel where it is just barely noticeable. I just happened
to put two and two together a few days after I started using this PID
device when I was in the shower one morning and barely awake.. I
thought it was just me at first but on further investigation, linked it
up with the on/off cycle of the espresso machine. On my can lights in
the kitchen (a run closer to my panel), I really have to concentrate to
actually notice it. I probably would not notice if it were not for the
pulsating rythmic effect generated by the once per second switching.

On other lighting close to the panel, it is either hardly noticable or
non-existant.

Is it common or acceptable for lighting on other circuits to feel the
effects of a small device such as this? Is this something I need to be
concerned about or is it just a minor annoyance...

Thanks for any advice you can offer..

Tony B.

An 1100 wattt device is not really small. While it may be drawing an
average of 9 amps, it may really be drawing a peak of much more as it cycles
.. When a device turns on it will cause a small voltage drop and when it
turns off, the voltage goes back up. Most devices in the house are turned
on and not back off for a while. That is probably why you don't notice it
that much. It only takes a small voltage reduction to make a noticable
change in the light output.

RBM remove this wrote:
If turning on motors like vacuums or oil burners, well pumps, or 120 volt
heating devices like hair dryers, etc also causes this dimming,on circuits
other than the ones that these devices are connected to, I would have the
neutral connections to your service equipment checked

I have a microwave oven in the kitchen that is on a different circuit
than the espresso machine... I had my daughter start and stop the
microwave every second or so while I watched the lights in the
bathroom..

I get the same effect from the microwave powering on and off... very
very subtle "flicker", more like a very slight dimming and return to
normal brightness within in a few milliseconds.. the lights never
flicker to competely off then on.. just a very minimal dimming for a
few milliseconds. I really have to concentrate to see it. The lights
always return to full brighness once the appliance is running. Same
with the espresso machine.. If I switch the boiler heater to full on,
it makes the lights "dim" for that millisecond only at the start of the
heating element... the lights are at full brighness when full on.

In the case of the espresso machine, the power cycling in a regular
pattern once a second or so and makes this dimming more noticeable.

If not for the rythmic nature of the dimming, I'd never notice it's
ocurring.

My Garbage disposal also causes my lights in the house to dim slightly
when I first flick it on as well.. but more noticeably than the
espresso machine, and it's on it's own 20 amp circuit.. Lights dim
very slightly for a 1/2 a second then back to normal once the disposal
is running... I guess I never even noticed that either but I'm sure it
was happening all the time.

Wouldn't that be somewhat normal behavior, even for a 200 amp service?
I'm hoping so.. but now that I'm noticing it maybe I'm just getting
paranoid... if not for the pulsating effect of this appliance, I would
never have given any of it a second thought.

Maybe I don't even need to worry about it... like I said it's hardly
noticeable, and always returns back to normal once the appliance is
operating. Definately better than my old house with a 100 amp
service.. Am I off base here? Does anyone think I need to have this
checked by an electrician?

Tony B.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
An 1100 wattt device is not really small. While it may be drawing an
average of 9 amps, it may really be drawing a peak of much more as it cycles
. When a device turns on it will cause a small voltage drop and when it
turns off, the voltage goes back up. Most devices in the house are turned
on and not back off for a while. That is probably why you don't notice it
that much. It only takes a small voltage reduction to make a noticable
change in the light output.

I am thinking you are probably right... I would never have even
noticed this voltage drop/light dimming if not for the pulsating nature
of the appliance. It went for a few days with out me noticing
actually.. I only noticed one morning when I happed to be looking at
the bathroom light half asleep and thought it was just because I woke
up... then put two and two together and linked it to the espresso
machine.

Are you thinking this is pretty much normal and nothing to be concerned
about? Any idea how this may affect other more sensitive devices like
televeisons or movie projectors? I'm not too concerned about it for
short term usage, but I sometimes like to let the applicance idle for a
few hours, and am wondering if the pulsating for longer periods would
affect other devices in the house.

I don't even notice the dimming on the lights in the living areas or
kitchen unless I'm trying to because it's that subtle.. just the
bedrooms and bathrooms since they are furthest from the electrical
panel, and even those are so minor to bother me unless I'm paying
attention to it.

Tony B

From the responses to my own thread below.. this seems to be a very common
problem, bad ground/neutral if the voltage drop/spike is more than just 5
volts. Have the neutral connections checked in the service panel, and
especially the grounding to the ground spike or pipes from the service
panel. Could also be on the electrical company pole side of things...
Search "floating neutral service panel " or "bad ground service panel" on
Google.



"Tony B." wrote in message
oups.com...

Ralph Mowery wrote:
An 1100 wattt device is not really small. While it may be drawing an
average of 9 amps, it may really be drawing a peak of much more as it
cycles
. When a device turns on it will cause a small voltage drop and when it
turns off, the voltage goes back up. Most devices in the house are
turned
on and not back off for a while. That is probably why you don't notice
it
that much. It only takes a small voltage reduction to make a noticable
change in the light output.

I am thinking you are probably right... I would never have even
noticed this voltage drop/light dimming if not for the pulsating nature
of the appliance. It went for a few days with out me noticing
actually.. I only noticed one morning when I happed to be looking at
the bathroom light half asleep and thought it was just because I woke
up... then put two and two together and linked it to the espresso
machine.

Are you thinking this is pretty much normal and nothing to be concerned
about? Any idea how this may affect other more sensitive devices like
televeisons or movie projectors? I'm not too concerned about it for
short term usage, but I sometimes like to let the applicance idle for a
few hours, and am wondering if the pulsating for longer periods would
affect other devices in the house.

I don't even notice the dimming on the lights in the living areas or
kitchen unless I'm trying to because it's that subtle.. just the
bedrooms and bathrooms since they are furthest from the electrical
panel, and even those are so minor to bother me unless I'm paying
attention to it.

Tony B

Motor loads will typically cause a slight dimming due to their high starting
current, and depending upon the size of your electric service, the distance
you are from the transformer feeding your service, and the electrical demand
on your service at the time this occurs, the dimming may be more pronounced.
It doesn't sound like you necessarily have a problem, but you may want to
contact the manufacturer to see if this is a common complaint



"Tony B." wrote in message
oups.com...

RBM remove this wrote:
If turning on motors like vacuums or oil burners, well pumps, or 120 volt
heating devices like hair dryers, etc also causes this dimming,on
circuits
other than the ones that these devices are connected to, I would have the
neutral connections to your service equipment checked

I have a microwave oven in the kitchen that is on a different circuit
than the espresso machine... I had my daughter start and stop the
microwave every second or so while I watched the lights in the
bathroom..

I get the same effect from the microwave powering on and off... very
very subtle "flicker", more like a very slight dimming and return to
normal brightness within in a few milliseconds.. the lights never
flicker to competely off then on.. just a very minimal dimming for a
few milliseconds. I really have to concentrate to see it. The lights
always return to full brighness once the appliance is running. Same
with the espresso machine.. If I switch the boiler heater to full on,
it makes the lights "dim" for that millisecond only at the start of the
heating element... the lights are at full brighness when full on.

In the case of the espresso machine, the power cycling in a regular
pattern once a second or so and makes this dimming more noticeable.

If not for the rythmic nature of the dimming, I'd never notice it's
ocurring.

My Garbage disposal also causes my lights in the house to dim slightly
when I first flick it on as well.. but more noticeably than the
espresso machine, and it's on it's own 20 amp circuit.. Lights dim
very slightly for a 1/2 a second then back to normal once the disposal
is running... I guess I never even noticed that either but I'm sure it
was happening all the time.

Wouldn't that be somewhat normal behavior, even for a 200 amp service?
I'm hoping so.. but now that I'm noticing it maybe I'm just getting
paranoid... if not for the pulsating effect of this appliance, I would
never have given any of it a second thought.

Maybe I don't even need to worry about it... like I said it's hardly
noticeable, and always returns back to normal once the appliance is
operating. Definately better than my old house with a 100 amp
service.. Am I off base here? Does anyone think I need to have this
checked by an electrician?

Tony B.

Tony B. wrote:
Hi all,

I have a newer home built in 2003 with a 200 amp service. I have an
espresso machine that has a PID controller installed on it... The
controller switches the water boiler power on and off about once a
second to maintain a certain boiler temperature in the machine...

The small espresso machine appliace has a 1100w boiler.. the
appliance draws 8-10amps. When the PID controller flips the boiler
power of this device on and off in 1 second intervals, I notice all
the incandescant lights in my house tend to pulsate along with the
power switching from this small 8-10 amp device...

The device is plugged into a 20 amp circuit. There are only 2 outlets
on this circuit, and the other outlet is not used...

Now please also understand that the "pulsating" is very hard to
notice... it is more pronounced in the lighting runs furthest from my
electrical panel where it is just barely noticeable. I just happened
to put two and two together a few days after I started using this PID
device when I was in the shower one morning and barely awake.. I
thought it was just me at first but on further investigation, linked
it up with the on/off cycle of the espresso machine. On my can
lights in the kitchen (a run closer to my panel), I really have to
concentrate to actually notice it. I probably would not notice if it
were not for the pulsating rythmic effect generated by the once per
second switching.

On other lighting close to the panel, it is either hardly noticable or
non-existant.

Is it common or acceptable for lighting on other circuits to feel the
effects of a small device such as this? Is this something I need to
be concerned about or is it just a minor annoyance...

Thanks for any advice you can offer..

Tony B.

You described, very well, a perfectly normal situation. Rest easy.

BTW, that's not a "small" appliance. It's pulling some pretty hefty
currents cyclically, from your descrip.

HTH
Pop`

Tony B. wrote:
RBM remove this wrote:
If turning on motors like vacuums or oil burners, well pumps, or 120
volt heating devices like hair dryers, etc also causes this
dimming,on circuits other than the ones that these devices are
connected to, I would have the neutral connections to your service
equipment checked

I have a microwave oven in the kitchen that is on a different circuit
than the espresso machine... I had my daughter start and stop the
microwave every second or so while I watched the lights in the
bathroom..

I get the same effect from the microwave powering on and off... very
very subtle "flicker", more like a very slight dimming and return to
normal brightness within in a few milliseconds.. the lights never
flicker to competely off then on.. just a very minimal dimming for a
few milliseconds. I really have to concentrate to see it. The lights
always return to full brighness once the appliance is running. Same
with the espresso machine.. If I switch the boiler heater to full on,
it makes the lights "dim" for that millisecond only at the start of
the heating element... the lights are at full brighness when full on.

In the case of the espresso machine, the power cycling in a regular
pattern once a second or so and makes this dimming more noticeable.

If not for the rythmic nature of the dimming, I'd never notice it's
ocurring.

My Garbage disposal also causes my lights in the house to dim slightly
when I first flick it on as well.. but more noticeably than the
espresso machine, and it's on it's own 20 amp circuit.. Lights dim
very slightly for a 1/2 a second then back to normal once the disposal
is running... I guess I never even noticed that either but I'm sure
it was happening all the time.

Wouldn't that be somewhat normal behavior, even for a 200 amp service?
I'm hoping so.. but now that I'm noticing it maybe I'm just getting
paranoid... if not for the pulsating effect of this appliance, I would
never have given any of it a second thought.

Maybe I don't even need to worry about it... like I said it's hardly
noticeable, and always returns back to normal once the appliance is
operating. Definately better than my old house with a 100 amp
service.. Am I off base here? Does anyone think I need to have this
checked by an electrician?

Tony B.

Not off base at all; perfectly normal situation.

"Tony B." wrote in message
oups.com...

RBM remove this wrote:
If turning on motors like vacuums or oil burners, well pumps, or 120 volt
heating devices like hair dryers, etc also causes this dimming,on
circuits
other than the ones that these devices are connected to, I would have the
neutral connections to your service equipment checked

I have a microwave oven in the kitchen that is on a different circuit
than the espresso machine... I had my daughter start and stop the
microwave every second or so while I watched the lights in the
bathroom..

I get the same effect from the microwave powering on and off... very
very subtle "flicker", more like a very slight dimming and return to
normal brightness within in a few milliseconds.. the lights never
flicker to competely off then on.. just a very minimal dimming for a
few milliseconds. I really have to concentrate to see it. The lights
always return to full brighness once the appliance is running. Same
with the espresso machine.. If I switch the boiler heater to full on,
it makes the lights "dim" for that millisecond only at the start of the
heating element... the lights are at full brighness when full on.

In the case of the espresso machine, the power cycling in a regular
pattern once a second or so and makes this dimming more noticeable.

If not for the rythmic nature of the dimming, I'd never notice it's
ocurring.

My Garbage disposal also causes my lights in the house to dim slightly
when I first flick it on as well.. but more noticeably than the
espresso machine, and it's on it's own 20 amp circuit.. Lights dim
very slightly for a 1/2 a second then back to normal once the disposal
is running... I guess I never even noticed that either but I'm sure it
was happening all the time.

Wouldn't that be somewhat normal behavior, even for a 200 amp service?
I'm hoping so.. but now that I'm noticing it maybe I'm just getting
paranoid... if not for the pulsating effect of this appliance, I would
never have given any of it a second thought.

Maybe I don't even need to worry about it... like I said it's hardly
noticeable, and always returns back to normal once the appliance is
operating. Definately better than my old house with a 100 amp
service.. Am I off base here? Does anyone think I need to have this
checked by an electrician?

Tony B.

Everything you have described is perfectly normal. The effect can be greater
or lesser depending on the wiring system.

Don Young

You described, very well, a perfectly normal situation. Rest easy.

BTW, that's not a "small" appliance. It's pulling some pretty hefty
currents cyclically, from your descrip.

HTH
Pop`

Thanks...

I think you are right. I was thinking this should be normal, but
sometimes the more you read the easier it is to become overley
concerned about things you don't need to.

I appreciate the responses... I guess my espresso machine is a larger
appliance than I imagined it was, in an electrical sense at least. I'm
sure it takes a large heating element to get water to 200 degrees in
the 1 liter boiler in about 5 min... flipping the element on and off
every second just makes its power draw actually noticeable.

Thanks again...

Tony B.

replying to Tony B., Wayne wrote:
I just got a new expresso machine with a pid that does the same thing with
dimming lights. I can put the pid in idle mode until I need to make an
expresso or just turn off the machine once I have made one. I will get the
nutral checked although my previous machine did not do this dim mining thing.
LED lights, tv, etc. are not affected by the expresso machines operation, just
the incandescent lights are.

--
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