I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

I can't find any definite answers as to whether or not that ground wire is
required, desired, or useless. The intent is on replacing the whole setup
with CAT 5E (seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable) and
re-routing the wires, but I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.
It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.

Eigenvector wrote:

I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

I can't find any definite answers as to whether or not that ground wire is
required, desired, or useless. The intent is on replacing the whole setup
with CAT 5E (seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable) and
re-routing the wires, but I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.
It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.


I think that ground is the phone company's. They might have something
to say about you removing it.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"CJT" wrote in message
...
Eigenvector wrote:

I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the
pole, down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single
ground wire connects to the cold water plumbing.

I can't find any definite answers as to whether or not that ground wire
is required, desired, or useless. The intent is on replacing the whole
setup with CAT 5E (seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable)
and re-routing the wires, but I don't know if I need to keep the ground
wire. It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.
I think that ground is the phone company's. They might have something
to say about you removing it.

Alright, I'd better call them then.

The whole thing started while I was sheetrocking and insulating the
basement. The previous owner/and or phone company rather than drilling
holes into the studs, took a chisel and cut a "V" notch on the surface of
the stud so that the sheetrock would lay flat. So I'm looking at their
handywork and wondering how I can re-route those wires - when I discovered
that one of those grey wires wasn't a phone line - it was a ground wire.
Now I'm wondering if I can route the ground wire to my panel instead and/or
toss it.

Alright, Qwest here I come. I'm sure it will take about a week to
sufficiently explain my question to them so that I get an intelligent
answer.

--

Old (older than every poster here) demanded the phone to be earthed
to a water pipe. That is no longer acceptable. Phone must now be
earthed to an electrode also used by cable TV and AC electric. Code
also says that wire must be 12 AWG. Most use 10 AWG wire. Code also
says that earthing wire must be short. That required to meet 'human
safety' code. For transistor safety, that wire from demarc (NID) must
be 'less than 10 feet', separated from all other non-earthing wires, no
sharp bends, no splices, not inside any metallic conduit, and should be
as short as practicable. These include post 1990 code requirements.

Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode. If it does not exist, you should install the
earthing rod (for AC electric) before the telco comes out. You want
them to use your 'better' earthing. Else they may install one that is
insufficient (too short).

Only other ground for telephone wire is where that wire enters the
telco's CO. However AC electric must be earthed at your earthing
electrode AND at utility's transformer.

While inspecting, also confirm a safety ground wire from breaker box
to water pipe is still connected. Best attached at a point where water
pipe just enters the building and so that an earthing connection does
not pass through any soldered connections. Your gas company may also
demand same connection to gas pipe; a requirement that varies with
natural gas companies.

Most important reason to confirm ground wires and to route them deep
enough so at to not be pierced by a nail - human safety. Do those
inspections while it remains convenient.

Eigenvector wrote:
Alright, I'd better call them then.

The whole thing started while I was sheetrocking and insulating the
basement. The previous owner/and or phone company rather than drilling
holes into the studs, took a chisel and cut a "V" notch on the surface of
the stud so that the sheetrock would lay flat. So I'm looking at their
handywork and wondering how I can re-route those wires - when I discovered
that one of those grey wires wasn't a phone line - it was a ground wire.
Now I'm wondering if I can route the ground wire to my panel instead and/or
toss it.

Alright, Qwest here I come. I'm sure it will take about a week to
sufficiently explain my question to them so that I get an intelligent
answer.

On 2006-12-15, w_tom wrote:

[Earthing wire] not inside any metallic conduit

Why would this be? Sometimes it might be necessary to use metallic
conduit to protect the earthing wire from physical damage.

Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode.

Given that the main panel/disconnect will have a grounding bar where
the Grounding Electrode Conductor terminates, is it good practice to
run the cable TV and telephone earthing wires directly to this grounding
bar?

Thanks, Wayne

Wayne Whitney wrote:

On 2006-12-15, w_tom wrote:


[Earthing wire] not inside any metallic conduit


Why would this be? Sometimes it might be necessary to use metallic
conduit to protect the earthing wire from physical damage.

When run in steel conduit, the wire through the steel acts as a choke
and can significantly raise the impedance of the earthing wire. As volt
notes, the NEC requires the conduit to be bonded to the earthing wire at
each end so the conduit acts as a conductor in parallel to the earthing
wire.


Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode.


Given that the main panel/disconnect will have a grounding bar where
the Grounding Electrode Conductor terminates, is it good practice to
run the cable TV and telephone earthing wires directly to this grounding
bar?

Connect them to the grounding electrode conductor close to where it
leaves the service.

--
bud--

w_tom wrote:
Old (older than every poster here) demanded the phone to be earthed
to a water pipe. That is no longer acceptable. Phone must now be
earthed to an electrode also used by cable TV and AC electric. Code
also says that wire must be 12 AWG. Most use 10 AWG wire. Code also
says that earthing wire must be short. That required to meet 'human
safety' code. For transistor safety, that wire from demarc (NID) must
be 'less than 10 feet', separated from all other non-earthing wires, no
sharp bends, no splices, not inside any metallic conduit, and should be
as short as practicable. These include post 1990 code requirements.

Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode.

Good information except the IEEE guide on surges and surge protection at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Li...ion_May051.pdf
(guide page 28-29) recommends the NID (and cable protector block) be
mounted close to the electrical service, and their ground wire be
connected to the grounding electrode conductor from the electrical
service close to the panel. With high surge currents there will be
significant voltage drop on the wire to the grounding electrode (the
wire will have a much higher impedance at lightning frequencies than its
DC resistance). With separate wires to the grounding electrode, that
voltage will appear between the power wires and the telephone wires and
may damage equipment connected to both. When the NID is connected with a
short path to the power system neutral-ground bond, the phone and power
wires will rise together.

Old practice often connected the NID ground wire to a nearby water pipe.
When electronics is connected to both power and telephone wires that can
produce failures. I moved mine to the grounding electrode conductor (but
now I will be looking for thugs - thanks Jim). The NEC now allows
connection to water pipes only within 5 feet of the entrance to the
building.

--
bud--


If it does not exist, you should install the
earthing rod (for AC electric) before the telco comes out. You want
them to use your 'better' earthing. Else they may install one that is
insufficient (too short).

Only other ground for telephone wire is where that wire enters the
telco's CO. However AC electric must be earthed at your earthing
electrode AND at utility's transformer.

While inspecting, also confirm a safety ground wire from breaker box
to water pipe is still connected. Best attached at a point where water
pipe just enters the building and so that an earthing connection does
not pass through any soldered connections. Your gas company may also
demand same connection to gas pipe; a requirement that varies with
natural gas companies.

Most important reason to confirm ground wires and to route them deep
enough so at to not be pierced by a nail - human safety. Do those
inspections while it remains convenient.

Everything you said is correct, as best as I recall it. But what are you
citing? It sounds more like a local code than a national code.

Pop`


w_tom wrote:
Old (older than every poster here) demanded the phone to be earthed
to a water pipe. That is no longer acceptable. Phone must now be
earthed to an electrode also used by cable TV and AC electric. Code
also says that wire must be 12 AWG. Most use 10 AWG wire. Code also
says that earthing wire must be short. That required to meet 'human
safety' code. For transistor safety, that wire from demarc (NID) must
be 'less than 10 feet', separated from all other non-earthing wires,
no sharp bends, no splices, not inside any metallic conduit, and
should be as short as practicable. These include post 1990 code
requirements.

Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode. If it does not exist, you should install the
earthing rod (for AC electric) before the telco comes out. You want
them to use your 'better' earthing. Else they may install one that is
insufficient (too short).

Only other ground for telephone wire is where that wire enters the
telco's CO. However AC electric must be earthed at your earthing
electrode AND at utility's transformer.

While inspecting, also confirm a safety ground wire from breaker box
to water pipe is still connected. Best attached at a point where
water pipe just enters the building and so that an earthing
connection does not pass through any soldered connections. Your gas
company may also demand same connection to gas pipe; a requirement
that varies with natural gas companies.

Most important reason to confirm ground wires and to route them deep
enough so at to not be pierced by a nail - human safety. Do those
inspections while it remains convenient.

Eigenvector wrote:
Alright, I'd better call them then.

The whole thing started while I was sheetrocking and insulating the
basement. The previous owner/and or phone company rather than
drilling holes into the studs, took a chisel and cut a "V" notch on
the surface of the stud so that the sheetrock would lay flat. So
I'm looking at their handywork and wondering how I can re-route
those wires - when I discovered that one of those grey wires wasn't
a phone line - it was a ground wire. Now I'm wondering if I can
route the ground wire to my panel instead and/or toss it.

Alright, Qwest here I come. I'm sure it will take about a week to
sufficiently explain my question to them so that I get an intelligent
answer.

Pop` wrote:
Everything you said is correct, as best as I recall it. But what are you
citing? It sounds more like a local code than a national code.

National Electrical Code now calls for all utilities to share a
common earth ground. Water pipe as earth ground is no longer
sufficient. Water pipe is bonded to breaker box. That connection
must be within five feet of where pipe leaves earth. But that
connection is electrically better if it does not pass through a solder
joint to earth. Also meter must have a bypass ground wire. These code
requirements are for human safety have changed significantly since 1970
construction.

To make the same earthing sufficient for transistor safety means both
meeting and exceeding post 1990 National Electrical Code. Therefore an
earthing wire must be even shorter than required by code - 'less than
10 feet'. Other requirements such as not inside metallic conduit,
wires separated, no sharp bends, etc are for electric currents (ie
transients) that are beyond the scope of NEC - that will not harm
humans and that can harm transistors.

Saftety ground to a gas pipe is unique to that gas company's
requirements. NEC does not require that ground. Gas companies also
typically put an electrical insulator adjacent to the gas meter so that
their outside gas pipes are not functioning as an earth ground.
Bonding a gas pipe to breaker box would only bond gas pipes inside the
building for human safety- and again only if required by that gas
company.

"w_tom" writes:
Old (older than every poster here) demanded the phone to be earthed
to a water pipe. That is no longer acceptable. Phone must now be
earthed to an electrode also used by cable TV and AC electric. Code
also says that wire must be 12 AWG. Most use 10 AWG wire. Code also
says that earthing wire must be short. That required to meet 'human
safety' code. For transistor safety, that wire from demarc (NID) must
be 'less than 10 feet', separated from all other non-earthing wires, no
sharp bends, no splices, not inside any metallic conduit, and should be
as short as practicable. These include post 1990 code requirements.

We have Verizon FIOS which comes in on fiber optic cable. The ONI
(optical network interface) uses power and I believe uses a grounded
(3-prong) cord -- thus, it is no longer attached to a long
exterior metal wire (i.e. think antenna) and seems analogous to any
interior low voltage wiring system like an alarm.

So does this situation in which the interior telephone circuit is
literally optically isolated does the code still require that the
demarc be bonded directly to earth ground?


Same rules also apply to cable TV and AC mains earthing wire. All
earthing wires should remain separated until all meet at their common
earthing electrode. If it does not exist, you should install the
earthing rod (for AC electric) before the telco comes out. You want
them to use your 'better' earthing. Else they may install one that is
insufficient (too short).

Only other ground for telephone wire is where that wire enters the
telco's CO. However AC electric must be earthed at your earthing
electrode AND at utility's transformer.

While inspecting, also confirm a safety ground wire from breaker box
to water pipe is still connected. Best attached at a point where water
pipe just enters the building and so that an earthing connection does
not pass through any soldered connections. Your gas company may also
demand same connection to gas pipe; a requirement that varies with
natural gas companies.

Interestingly - our gas company specifically WARNS against bonding the
gas entrance to ground (and will remove it if they see it). I have
heard that some gas companies purposely run a small current on the
external gas pipe to prevent galvanic corrosion. In those cases, the
internal piping (which often is grounded to appliance ground) is
isolated from the street piping via a rubber gasket of sorts.


Most important reason to confirm ground wires and to route them deep
enough so at to not be pierced by a nail - human safety. Do those
inspections while it remains convenient.

Eigenvector wrote:
Alright, I'd better call them then.

The whole thing started while I was sheetrocking and insulating the
basement. The previous owner/and or phone company rather than drilling
holes into the studs, took a chisel and cut a "V" notch on the surface of
the stud so that the sheetrock would lay flat. So I'm looking at their
handywork and wondering how I can re-route those wires - when I discovered
that one of those grey wires wasn't a phone line - it was a ground wire.
Now I'm wondering if I can route the ground wire to my panel instead and/or
toss it.

Alright, Qwest here I come. I'm sure it will take about a week to
sufficiently explain my question to them so that I get an intelligent
answer.

Optical network interface electronics still connects to AC mains. AC
electric is equivalent to an antenna connected to optican network
electronics. That incoming wire must be earthed where it enter the
building to protect optical network electronics..

FIOS installations appear to have some earthing. Cannot say why with
certainty. But an optical cable has a conductive wire within it. A
conductor so that undersground optical cable can be traced before
excavating. Have observed something from optical cable connected to
earthing. But I did not inquire as to what or why.

Some gas companies want interior gas lines bonded. Others do not.
You must conform to your gas company demands. However that gas pipe
gets bonded anyway when furnace or other gas appliances also use
electricity. IOW if building earthing is not provided, then (as
happened in one dwelling) building might use gas line to obtain a
return ground - may use that pipe as an alternative neutral wire.
Fortunately no one was home when a gas line gasket eventually broke
down; house exploded. Just another (and rare) reason why all
'conductive' utilities should share a common earth ground.

blueman wrote:
We have Verizon FIOS which comes in on fiber optic cable. The ONI
(optical network interface) uses power and I believe uses a grounded
(3-prong) cord -- thus, it is no longer attached to a long
exterior metal wire (i.e. think antenna) and seems analogous to any
interior low voltage wiring system like an alarm.

So does this situation in which the interior telephone circuit is
literally optically isolated does the code still require that the
demarc be bonded directly to earth ground?
...

Interestingly - our gas company specifically WARNS against bonding the
gas entrance to ground (and will remove it if they see it). I have
heard that some gas companies purposely run a small current on the
external gas pipe to prevent galvanic corrosion. In those cases, the
internal piping (which often is grounded to appliance ground) is
isolated from the street piping via a rubber gasket of sorts.

In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

That's about to change. Read on...

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

Yes.

More accurately, the "protector unit" for the service is connected to an earth
ground. 14-gauge used to be the norm. 12 was used for years. It's now
10-gauge.

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

That sounds right. If done to BSP (old Bell System Practice) specification,
there should be a tag attached to the ground connection at the electrode
(water pipe, ground rod, etc). It says something to the effect: On pain of
death, thou shalt not remove the ground. It is enforced by the same thugs
that enforce the mattress tag removal ban. g

I can't find any definite answers

Until now...

as to whether or not that ground wire is required

It is.

desired

Yes.

or useless.

Only until a direct, or near-direct, lightning strike.

The intent is on replacing the whole setup with CAT 5E

It doesn't make sense to connect Cat 5e wire to a "Cat 2-1/2" network. Cat 5e
works fine for POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) but is certainly overkill.
It's NETWORKING wire (ethernet, yammer, yammer).

(seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable

Uh, Cat 3 *IS* phone cable.

I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.

You need to KEEP IT.

It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.

If re-doing the system, I'd go 10-gauge, or at least 12.

I have encountered MANY services where the ground wire had NEVER been
connected, some as old as 20-25 years. I declined to ask the customer if they
had had to replace much/any of their equipment over the years.

I have found services bearing the above-mentioned tag with the ground clamp
(and tag) "flapping in the breeze" (disconnected). Telephony gets no respect
at all.

The "protector" at the phone entrance is NOT designed to clamp most surges -
just the *HUGE* ones, like those delivered with a direct/near-direct lightning
strike or a power line coming down across a phone cable or drop.

I once encountered an old (restored, fine) farmhouse that took a direct strike
of lightning. The charge blew the protector housing off the outside of the
home. Half of the housing was 50-feet away. I never found the other half.
On the inside of the home, the bolt blew a 2-ft gaping hole in the lathe and
plaster as it passed between a phone jack and electrical outlet across the
living room.

The charge travelled along the underground "drop" (buried service wire) about
250-ft out to the road. There it blew apart a 25-pair splice module,
interrupting service to about 20 subscribers beyond.

This protector WAS grounded, for all the good it did. With a direct strike of
lightning, ALL bets are off.

You want your protector well grounded. Trust me.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

Top posted for closure

I really appreciate the response for this. I wasn't sure why that ground
wire was there so I figure I'd better ask before moving it. I can leave it
in its current position, bonded to the pipes, as the pipes are bonded to the
panel ground, this would make the phone ground the shortest it can be -
otherwise I'd have to route the phone ground wire to the other side of my
house. But at least now I can drill the studs and put up nailplates for
protection and peace of mind that I'm not gonna take out my phone service
with an errant nail in the wall.

Just for comparison, the ROMEX was done in the same fashion, that was
corrected as soon as I uncovered that little piece of handywork.

As to CAT 3 being phone cable, sorry I'm a computer systems architect the
word CAT 3 means networking to me. Besides I thought CAT 1 was phone cable?


"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

That's about to change. Read on...

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

Yes.

More accurately, the "protector unit" for the service is connected to an
earth
ground. 14-gauge used to be the norm. 12 was used for years. It's now
10-gauge.

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the
pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground
wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

That sounds right. If done to BSP (old Bell System Practice)
specification,
there should be a tag attached to the ground connection at the electrode
(water pipe, ground rod, etc). It says something to the effect: On pain
of
death, thou shalt not remove the ground. It is enforced by the same thugs
that enforce the mattress tag removal ban. g

I can't find any definite answers

Until now...

as to whether or not that ground wire is required

It is.

desired

Yes.

or useless.

Only until a direct, or near-direct, lightning strike.

The intent is on replacing the whole setup with CAT 5E

It doesn't make sense to connect Cat 5e wire to a "Cat 2-1/2" network.
Cat 5e
works fine for POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) but is certainly
overkill.
It's NETWORKING wire (ethernet, yammer, yammer).

(seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable

Uh, Cat 3 *IS* phone cable.

I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.

You need to KEEP IT.

It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.

If re-doing the system, I'd go 10-gauge, or at least 12.

I have encountered MANY services where the ground wire had NEVER been
connected, some as old as 20-25 years. I declined to ask the customer if
they
had had to replace much/any of their equipment over the years.

I have found services bearing the above-mentioned tag with the ground
clamp
(and tag) "flapping in the breeze" (disconnected). Telephony gets no
respect
at all.

The "protector" at the phone entrance is NOT designed to clamp most
surges -
just the *HUGE* ones, like those delivered with a direct/near-direct
lightning
strike or a power line coming down across a phone cable or drop.

I once encountered an old (restored, fine) farmhouse that took a direct
strike
of lightning. The charge blew the protector housing off the outside of
the
home. Half of the housing was 50-feet away. I never found the other
half.
On the inside of the home, the bolt blew a 2-ft gaping hole in the lathe
and
plaster as it passed between a phone jack and electrical outlet across the
living room.

The charge travelled along the underground "drop" (buried service wire)
about
250-ft out to the road. There it blew apart a 25-pair splice module,
interrupting service to about 20 subscribers beyond.

This protector WAS grounded, for all the good it did. With a direct
strike of
lightning, ALL bets are off.

You want your protector well grounded. Trust me.
--

JR

Climb poles and dig holes
Have staplegun, will travel

Eigenvector wrote:
Top posted for closure

I really appreciate the response for this. I wasn't sure why that ground
wire was there so I figure I'd better ask before moving it. I can leave it
in its current position, bonded to the pipes, as the pipes are bonded to the
panel ground, this would make the phone ground the shortest it can be -
otherwise I'd have to route the phone ground wire to the other side of my
house.

Before plastic pipe, that's the way grounding was done. Your
installation is grandfathered. While using the interior metal water
pipe as a grounding conductor is no longer permitted by NEC today, even
for telephone or cable, as long as nobody comes along and replaces the
interior metal pipe with plastic without jumpering it, you're OK.
Check to make sure the water meter is jumpered and also the hot to cold
at the water heater. In fact, there are still a lot of houses where
the electric service grounding was done the same way as your phone
grounding. The NEC restrictions against using interior water pipes for
grounding applies to Residential only, because of the availability and
common use of plastic pipe and popularity of DIY. Industrial and
Commercial electric services are still permitted to this day to use
interior metal water pipes as a grounding electrode conductor for an
electric service.

In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

Top posted for closure

You wish...

As to CAT 3 being phone cable, sorry I'm a computer systems
architect the word CAT 3 means networking to me.

You may be right. However, I am unaware of any computer networking
application that specifies Cat 3 cable.

Besides I thought CAT 1 was phone cable?

Some of the garbage cable cranked-out by various manufacturers for the first
5-7 years after 1984 might qualify as Cat 1, although I don't think it is THAT
good.

The good, old "light olive gray" "quad" wire (red/green/yellow/black) used for
decades would probably qualify as Cat 2 - whatever THAT means.

I have never seen any "Cat" other than 3 and 5e. Whatever happened to 1,2,
and 4?
--

JR

"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

Top posted for closure

You wish...

As to CAT 3 being phone cable, sorry I'm a computer systems
architect the word CAT 3 means networking to me.

You may be right. However, I am unaware of any computer networking
application that specifies Cat 3 cable.

Besides I thought CAT 1 was phone cable?

Some of the garbage cable cranked-out by various manufacturers for the
first
5-7 years after 1984 might qualify as Cat 1, although I don't think it is
THAT
good.

The good, old "light olive gray" "quad" wire (red/green/yellow/black) used
for
decades would probably qualify as Cat 2 - whatever THAT means.

I have never seen any "Cat" other than 3 and 5e. Whatever happened to
1,2,
and 4?
--

JR

CAT 4 was a placeholder so far as I know, it was never in use. CAT 3 I've
only seen in 10 Mbit connections, old computer networks but still widely in
use. I think CAT 2 was the same as CAT 4, basically just a placeholder.
CAT 5 is 100 Mbit connection line, CAT 5e is 1,000 Mbit connection, CAT 6 is
1,000 Mbit, plus providing power capability. Really it's all the same
cable, just better tolerances and quality - except CAT 6 which has
additional pairs. ****That's how I know it. That's not the pedantic and/or
exact definition, there are better descriptions of it out there. So if
anyone chimes in looking for an argument I won't even bother - no trolling
here please!****

Anyway the whole project is on hold until Seattle gets back to normal, I
doubt the phone company has time to worry about my home re-wiring project at
this time. Hell, the entire town of Issaquah is out of power, at least it
was when I spoke to the local Lowe's guys - and Issaquah is a BIG town, not
some podunk.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...

"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

Top posted for closure

You wish...

As to CAT 3 being phone cable, sorry I'm a computer systems
architect the word CAT 3 means networking to me.

You may be right. However, I am unaware of any computer networking
application that specifies Cat 3 cable.

Besides I thought CAT 1 was phone cable?

Some of the garbage cable cranked-out by various manufacturers for the
first
5-7 years after 1984 might qualify as Cat 1, although I don't think it is
THAT
good.

The good, old "light olive gray" "quad" wire (red/green/yellow/black)
used for
decades would probably qualify as Cat 2 - whatever THAT means.

I have never seen any "Cat" other than 3 and 5e. Whatever happened to
1,2,
and 4?
--

JR

CAT 4 was a placeholder so far as I know, it was never in use. CAT 3 I've
only seen in 10 Mbit connections, old computer networks but still widely
in use. I think CAT 2 was the same as CAT 4, basically just a
placeholder. CAT 5 is 100 Mbit connection line, CAT 5e is 1,000 Mbit
connection, CAT 6 is 1,000 Mbit, plus providing power capability. Really
it's all the same cable, just better tolerances and quality - except CAT 6
which has additional pairs. ****That's how I know it. That's not the
pedantic and/or exact definition, there are better descriptions of it out
there. So if anyone chimes in looking for an argument I won't even
bother - no trolling here please!****

Anyway the whole project is on hold until Seattle gets back to normal, I
doubt the phone company has time to worry about my home re-wiring project
at this time. Hell, the entire town of Issaquah is out of power, at least
it was when I spoke to the local Lowe's guys - and Issaquah is a BIG town,
not some podunk.
BTW, examples of the stellar job done on the phone lines

http://photos.imageevent.com/eigenve...e/PC160076.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/eigenve...e/PC160077.JPG

Looks like a pretty good ground connection to me, no corrosion and the
connection is nice and tight. But that splice! Christ that's a bad job if
I ever saw one.

In article ,
"Eigenvector" wrote:

CAT 4 was a placeholder so far as I know

Thanks for taking the time to post such detail. I am more informed.

Anyway the whole project is on hold until Seattle gets back to normal

Yeah, so I've heard. Good luck to you folks. I kinda wonder if they'll
(Qwest) ask or volunteers to help. Then again, "they" asked for volunteers
for Katrina that never panned-out. Despite being one big, fat, happy company,
we still seem to stay within the original states that comprised each of the
three BOCs (Bell Operating Companies) prior to divestitu Northwestern
Bell, Mountain Bell and Pacific Northwest Bell. We'll see...
--

JR

Eigenvector wrote:
I can leave it in its current position, bonded to the pipes, as the
pipes are bonded to the panel ground, this would make the phone
ground the shortest it can be - otherwise I'd have to route the
phone ground wire to the other side of my house.

Connection from phone, through wires, through pipes, etc is grossly
more than 10 feet. It is make worse by pipe joints, wire junctions
etc. It does not meet 1990 NEC earthing requirements. I suspect your
connection to earth is well over 50 feet AND does not make that
earthing connection directly. It would be a prescription for
electronics damage.

There are a number of ways to fix this. But you may regard them as
too much work. The amount of work not justified by the risk. This for
the benefit of others who are at more risk to damage.

For example that phone line could be rerouted to enter at adjacent to
AC electric. Or wire is routed inside building well separated from any
other wire or pipe to first connect to a protector at earth electrode -
and only then distributing phone service to the house. Another
suggestion from a utility is demonstrated by bad, ugly, and good
figures in:
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

There is no way around a short ground connection (lower impedance)
and a common earthing electrode if electronics protection is desired.

Eigenvector wrote:
I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

I can't find any definite answers as to whether or not that ground wire is
required, desired, or useless. The intent is on replacing the whole setup
with CAT 5E (seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable) and
re-routing the wires, but I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.
It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.


Hi,
Just remember grounding = safety issue. That's there for a reason.
You notice surge protector on your Dmark. block? Where would surge
current go? Say when lightning strikes.

Eigenvector wrote:
I can't find a good solid ruling for this one.

Are phone lines grounded locally at the house?

The configuration at my house has the main phone line coming off the pole,
down to a junction box, where 2 phone lines leave and a single ground wire
connects to the cold water plumbing.

I can't find any definite answers as to whether or not that ground wire is
required, desired, or useless. The intent is on replacing the whole setup
with CAT 5E (seeing how it's just as cheap as CAT 3 or phone cable) and
re-routing the wires, but I don't know if I need to keep the ground wire.
It looks like pretty standard 14 gauge wire, in a grey sheath.
..
Telephone line protection here, here which AFIK follows Bell Canada
(ATT) practice is a 'Protector' mounted where the telephone line enters
the premises. Sometimes mounted outside but often inside the house.
That protector requires a ground.

The telephone company would either have driven their own ground rod or,
as in our case run a grounding wire to the incoming metal electrical
conduit which is grounded by the power company; that ground is also
bonded to metallic water pipe.

The protector (similar ones have been in use since the 1800s) provides
voltage breakdown protection from each side of the telephone pair.
Those are either repairable manually or by replacing small slide in
units; they are essentially small spark gaps that will break down to
ground if voltage exceeds a certain figure. Can't remember what that
voltage is offhand.

Also these days if one is within distance of the server, Internet
service can also be provided via the telephone pair.

The cable TV company have a coax entering the premises and it also has
a grounded protector.