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#1
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took
over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. Anyhow, I know the public utilities have a means to build a coal fire on the top of the ground when they need to dig up something in the street. I dont have access to coal, nor would I want to burn it indoors because of the odor. But I can get regular charcoal. My question is this: What is the best method to burn the charcoal to melt the ground? Do i just burn it right on top of the soil, or should I put some sort of metal container around it, or what? I mean in order to deflect the heat downward, not as a safety measure. I am not worried about causing a fire, when the nearest flammable (wall) is at least 9 feet away, and I am not planning to make a huge fire, just the amound needed to grill some burgers on the grill. One other thing, would it be best to start the fire right on the ground, or to start it in a grill first???? Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. Mark |
#2
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
wrote in message ... I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. Anyhow, I know the public utilities have a means to build a coal fire on the top of the ground when they need to dig up something in the street. I dont have access to coal, nor would I want to burn it indoors because of the odor. But I can get regular charcoal. My question is this: What is the best method to burn the charcoal to melt the ground? Do i just burn it right on top of the soil, or should I put some sort of metal container around it, or what? I mean in order to deflect the heat downward, not as a safety measure. I am not worried about causing a fire, when the nearest flammable (wall) is at least 9 feet away, and I am not planning to make a huge fire, just the amound needed to grill some burgers on the grill. One other thing, would it be best to start the fire right on the ground, or to start it in a grill first???? Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. Mark why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. Bob |
#4
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#5
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
A bucket of hot water will go a long ways. the ground couldn't be frozen
very deep. -- Steve Barker wrote in message ... I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. Anyhow, I know the public utilities have a means to build a coal fire on the top of the ground when they need to dig up something in the street. I dont have access to coal, nor would I want to burn it indoors because of the odor. But I can get regular charcoal. My question is this: What is the best method to burn the charcoal to melt the ground? Do i just burn it right on top of the soil, or should I put some sort of metal container around it, or what? I mean in order to deflect the heat downward, not as a safety measure. I am not worried about causing a fire, when the nearest flammable (wall) is at least 9 feet away, and I am not planning to make a huge fire, just the amound needed to grill some burgers on the grill. One other thing, would it be best to start the fire right on the ground, or to start it in a grill first???? Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. Mark |
#6
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#7
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Steve Barker LT wrote: A bucket of hot water will go a long ways. the ground couldn't be frozen very deep. -- Steve Barker .. What about a regular cold water hose? |
#8
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#9
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, DIMwit wrote:
why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. No problem, but it gets expensive heating 100 gallons of boiling water at a time and nothing less will have any effect. |
#10
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Just attach a garden hose to the drain on your water heater.it is
probably due to be flushed anyways and use that. Do you have a post hole digger or auger? If you want to do it the easiest way rent a 1 MAN not 2 post hole digger with the hot water it will be a snap and worth the cost her is a pic I have rented them a few times and they work really well! http://www.clarkstownrentals.com/pro..._augerfull.jpg wrote: I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. Anyhow, I know the public utilities have a means to build a coal fire on the top of the ground when they need to dig up something in the street. I dont have access to coal, nor would I want to burn it indoors because of the odor. But I can get regular charcoal. My question is this: What is the best method to burn the charcoal to melt the ground? Do i just burn it right on top of the soil, or should I put some sort of metal container around it, or what? I mean in order to deflect the heat downward, not as a safety measure. I am not worried about causing a fire, when the nearest flammable (wall) is at least 9 feet away, and I am not planning to make a huge fire, just the amound needed to grill some burgers on the grill. One other thing, would it be best to start the fire right on the ground, or to start it in a grill first???? Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. Mark |
#11
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Better than blowing on it with a drinking straw. Would carrying a 5 gallon
bucket of hot water out there be all that big a deal??? -- Steve Barker "terry" wrote in message ups.com... Steve Barker LT wrote: A bucket of hot water will go a long ways. the ground couldn't be frozen very deep. -- Steve Barker . What about a regular cold water hose? |
#12
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, DIMwit wrote: why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. No problem, but it gets expensive heating 100 gallons of boiling water at a time and nothing less will have any effect. Why so you think you would need 100 gallons? I think about 5 gallons of hot water for each hole would be enough. Like other posters have said, how deep could the soil possibly be frozen this early in the Winter? Do you live in Alaska? If you do, I guess it would be real deep :-) Bob |
#13
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
AZ Nomad wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, DIMwit wrote: why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. No problem, but it gets expensive heating 100 gallons of boiling water at a time and nothing less will have any effect. Is this the antarctic? Aside from being expensive, 100 gal. would be a load to carry. I think we've been had. |
#14
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#15
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
In article , "DIMwit" wrote:
Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. CO2 is relatively harmless. It's the CO that you have to worry about, a lot. Burning charcoal indoors is favorite way to commit suicide in some countries. Very low concentrations of CO can be lethal so be careful! PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. The trouble with boiling water is... if the conditions are sufficiently cold, the boiling water can soon turn to ice thereby making matters considerably worse. Don't use water usless you're sure it isn't going to end up frozen before you've finished the job. I've never had to deal with excavating frozen ground but I'd probably try an electric radiant heater. If you have (or can borrow) one it would be relatively easy and safe to try that technique. If it doesn't work you still have the option of trying something a little more aggressive, and dangerous. -- |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| | Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". | | Gary Player. | | http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
#16
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#17
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:31:59 -0500, DIMwit wrote:
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, DIMwit wrote: why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. No problem, but it gets expensive heating 100 gallons of boiling water at a time and nothing less will have any effect. Why so you think you would need 100 gallons? I think about 5 gallons of hot water for each hole would be enough. Like other posters have said, how deep could the soil possibly be frozen this early in the Winter? Do you live in Alaska? If you do, I guess it would be real deep :-) 5 gallons won't even soften the top half inch. |
#18
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:31:59 -0500, DIMwit wrote: "AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, DIMwit wrote: why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. No problem, but it gets expensive heating 100 gallons of boiling water at a time and nothing less will have any effect. Why so you think you would need 100 gallons? I think about 5 gallons of hot water for each hole would be enough. Like other posters have said, how deep could the soil possibly be frozen this early in the Winter? Do you live in Alaska? If you do, I guess it would be real deep :-) 5 gallons won't even soften the top half inch. Got any of the sheet tin left, or something similarly heat proof? Prop up 4 walls and a lid, (like a deer blind or fishing shanty) and run the output from a construction heater into that confined space. Local rentall place probably has them. The rental and the fuel cost will be unpleasant, but you probably only need it for a day or two. aem sends... |
#19
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, "DIMwit"
wrote: wrote in message .. . I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. Anyhow, I know the public utilities have a means to build a coal fire on the top of the ground when they need to dig up something in the street. I dont have access to coal, nor would I want to burn it indoors because of the odor. But I can get regular charcoal. My question is this: What is the best method to burn the charcoal to melt the ground? Do i just burn it right on top of the soil, or should I put some sort of metal container around it, or what? I mean in order to deflect the heat downward, not as a safety measure. I am not worried about causing a fire, when the nearest flammable (wall) is at least 9 feet away, and I am not planning to make a huge fire, just the amound needed to grill some burgers on the grill. One other thing, would it be best to start the fire right on the ground, or to start it in a grill first???? Yes, I know3 about ventillation to prevent CO2 poisoning. I'll leave a door or window ajar, plus the barn has plenty of small leaks by each rib in the steel along the roof edge. I will gradually plug those with foam after the stalls are done. PS. I recall the city used to place a half of a steel barrel drum over the coal. I wonder if that helps thaw the ground, or is only to prevent sparks from flying. I know regular coal tends to spark more than charcoal. Mark why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. Bob Just buy a pickaxe. |
#20
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Goedjn wrote:
On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:03:53 -0500, "DIMwit" wrote: I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. why can't you just pour boiling water on the ground so soften it up? It's easier to heat up a big pot of water on a barbeque outside the barn, and the water will work quickly working its way down, I think. Just buy a pickaxe. Or do it the lazy man's way: go rent an auger for a couple of hours. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
#21
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#22
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:03:45 -0500, Doghouse
wrote: wrote: I got my new barn all closed in just before our heavy freeze took over. But I still need to put 3 posts in the ground INSIDE the barn. The soil in there is fairly dry on the top so I am hoping its not frozen too solid or deep yet. But I did find the shovel was hard to penetrate it yesterday. It was really too cold to proceed with the job anyhow. I loved to dig as a boy in Vermont, but I gave up in frost. It's an interesting problem. The best solution may depend on the type of soil, its temperature, and how much ice it contains. In Korea, soldiers sometimes used explosives, sometimes fires, and sometimes an assortment of hand tools. Thawing will stop when the surrounding ground draws heat away as fast as you apply it. I think very cold ground and ashes might even stop thawing from a fire. Others have recommended light bulbs. That sounds simple and pretty safe. Most of the heat from a bulb is radiant, so lining the box with aluminum foil would reflect more heat to the soil. I'd use several hundred-watt bulbs with porcelain sockets and wire with high-temperature insulation. A little ventilation may be necessary to keep the electrical stuff from overheating. A professional solution is a trailer-mounted boiler with hoses to circulate water between the boiler and the hole. One could use a stove, two pots of water, and a big syringe or pump to draw water from the hole for reheating. An infrared thermometer would make it easy to monitor the temperature of the water in the hole. If you're going to rent equipment, just use a drilling rig. or a ditch-witch. There's no point in using finesse when raw power will do. But still, we're talking three postholes/footings, not the Comstock. |
#23
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
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#24
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Option 1. Electric jackhammer rental. It works on concrete. Should work
on frozen dirt. Option 2. Pickaxe and power posthole auger. Option 3. Rock bar, San Angelo bar, etc. 72" long, 1" diameter steel. chisel or pointed end. I drive them with a 50# T-post driver made from drill stem. Option 4. Steam cleaner (watch out for the hot mud) Option 5. Tractor with auger driven from a 3-point frame on the back |
#25
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
When I was in Girl Scouts, we used to do pothole cooking. Dig hole,
build wood fire, wait till it had good hot coals. Then we put in packages of food wrapped in foil, covered that with wet leaves and then dirt. Kept it buried a coupld of hours and then feasted. You could do something similar with charcoal, it seems. Get some good hot coals going, cover with wet leaves or straw, wait a couple of hours. Doesn't seem the ground can be frozen very far down yet, and this method would keep most of the heat on the hole. |
#26
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Digging a hole in frozen ground
Goedjn wrote:
On Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:03:45 -0500, Doghouse wrote: A professional solution is a trailer-mounted boiler with hoses to circulate water between the boiler and the hole. One could use a stove, two pots of water, and a big syringe or pump to draw water from the hole for reheating. An infrared thermometer would make it easy to monitor the temperature of the water in the hole. If you're going to rent equipment, just use a drilling rig. or a ditch-witch. There's no point in using finesse when raw power will do. But still, we're talking three postholes/footings, not the Comstock. The boiler trailer shows that the principle works for big excavations. For postholes I already have a stove, two pots, and a big syringe. |
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