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Default Water spike problems in my house.

I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?

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eastcoastguyz wrote:

I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


Revoke his license.

A thermal expansion tank is required any time a PRV is
present on a municipal supply.

Yes, he can get away without one in 75% of the installs
maybe because the street pressure is low enough.

The exp tank gets connected on the *Cold* inlet
side of the heater. When the water heats up, it
expands, raising the pressure in the tank.
The PRV prevents the expansion from backing up
out to the street. (There are exceptions to this,
but not important here.) To absorb these spikes,
an expansion tank is necessary.

So, the pressure spikes you see do affect *both*
Hot and Cold lines since they are joined by the heater.

Retail on the exp tank is about $40 to $50.
Install is easy.

Jim
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Default Water spike problems in my house.

I second the notion that it is caused from thermal gain from heating the
water. My camper is real bad about this when I use the PRV on it, because a
PRV also acts as a check valve.

--
Steve Barker



"eastcoastguyz" wrote in message
ups.com...
I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



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Default Water spike problems in my house.

eastcoastguyz wrote:
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


Yep.

MM
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Default Water spike problems in my house.

eastcoastguyz wrote:
I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?

Hi,
Air in the line?


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Default Water spike problems in my house.

"eastcoastguyz" wrote

Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



Yes, with the PRV installed you need an expansion tank.
I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water heater
to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and to ensure
there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system.



Bob Wheatley


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Default Water spike problems in my house.


"Bob Wheatley" wrote in message
...
"eastcoastguyz" wrote

Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



Yes, with the PRV installed you need an expansion tank.
I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system.



Bob Wheatley


listen to this chap - he speaks the truth ...

(What's the difference between God and a plumber?








God doesn't think he's a plumber)


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"I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and
to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system. "

1. The money would be better well spent on beer and pizza.

2. Some PRV's allow for thermal expansion, eg. Watts AUB series.

3. The thing you need to get is a new plumber, Maybe one that owns a
pressure gauge.

kenny b

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wrote in message
ups.com...

"I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and
to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system. "

1. The money would be better well spent on beer and pizza.

2. Some PRV's allow for thermal expansion, eg. Watts AUB series.

3. The thing you need to get is a new plumber, Maybe one that owns a
pressure gauge.

kenny b


What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too slow in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD


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MLD wrote:

What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too slow in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD



Just what people need here is more phyco babble bull**** to confuse
people even more. When all that was really needed was a plumber with a
gauge and a little knowledge on how to use one.
Instead you got a plumber that replaces things because they look old so
it must be bad theory.

kennyb



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wrote in message
ups.com...

MLD wrote:

What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too

slow in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve

is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a

faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to

regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of

the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases

it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to

respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD



Just what people need here is more phyco babble bull**** to confuse
people even more. When all that was really needed was a plumber with a
gauge and a little knowledge on how to use one.
Instead you got a plumber that replaces things because they look old so
it must be bad theory.

kennyb

Hey Dumbo
Your response is very refreshing--be so good as to explain just how a gage
will resolve the problem. What does the pressure tell you if it's high? or
if it's low? Or if it goes from high to low? What it does after or when a
faucet is opened? In fact, if it's not bled properly you can't believe
anything it tells you other than steady state. In many cases you have to
understand the problem before you can fix it. Oh, BTW, sorry if you got
confused--but when you have an IQ about the same as your hat size that's
easy to understand.
MLD


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wrote in message
ups.com...

MLD wrote:

What I would guess is: The dynamics of the reducing valve maybe too slow
in
getting to its steady state regulating position. With no flow the valve
is
in a closed position. When there is a sudden flow demand (opening a
faucet)
the valve moves opens to provide flow but actually overshoots its steady
state position. For whatever reason it then slowly closes down to
regulate
the pressure. It's during that time frame that there is high flow out of
the
faucet. In high performance systems, PRV are fast acting with time
constants in the order of 15-20 millisecond. There are many things that
slow down the transient response of these type of valves--in many cases
it
is getting the control pressure to bleed down allowing the valve to
respond
quickly Usually a damping orifice being too small is one reason.
MLD



Just what people need here is more phyco babble bull**** to confuse
people even more. When all that was really needed was a plumber with a
gauge and a little knowledge on how to use one.
Instead you got a plumber that replaces things because they look old so
it must be bad theory.

kennyb

errr ... I thought it was quite nice to get some intelligent engineering
comment on the issue actually - what a shame a little simple physics seems
to have been confused with 'phyco babble bull****' ...

I agree the guy's plumber sounds flaky ...



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here's an answer to much of the pressure speculation:
www.hdsupply.com
this one has a hose female connector:
300 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
300 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153000
$7.96

this has a 1/4" MIP [male iron pipe thread] connector
100 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
100 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153050
$4.49

eastcoastguyz wrote:
I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water. The plumber who installed it, said that the
pressure was too high likely in the house. He looked at the pressure
reducer value which he said was old and broken. So he replaced it. He
also claimed this would stop the water spike we got in the house. I'm
defining a water spike, that at random times during the day or night,
when you turn on any facet water will blast out for about 10 seconds
and then return to a normal flow. I have not been able to see a pattern
for this. I have seen it do this within minutes after using the shower
and then getting a drink a water from the kitchen sink.

The plumber, who by the way has a master plumber's licenses was
surprised that we still had the water spike problem. Assuming that the
new unit might be defective, he replaced it with one that was assemble
in the US instead of China, thinking that perhaps the charge in product
might have caused the problem.

This didn't solved the problem, still several times a day, without
warning water comes blasting out. The plumber said he didn't know what
to do, since he didn't think it was likely that both of these pressure
reducer valves were defective. I asked if perhaps the ones he was
installing simply were robust enough to handle the high pressure and he
said that this is a very normal device he has been installing in my
area for many years and never had a problem.

This led us to talk with the local water company. Maybe the pressure
coming in from the street was so great that this device couldn't handle
it when it would spike. After many phone calls I finally got the water
company to return my call and be interested in the problem. The last
call, I gave him the phone number of my plumber since he was most
familiar and understood the system. After all, I'm just a home owner
and don't know much about this stuff. I got a phone call back from the
water company and said he talked with my plumber and after discussing
the problem the plumber agreed with the water company that we should
install an expansion tank over the hot water heater. I explained that
the water spikes come from the hot water and the cold water as well.
How is an expansion tank over the hot water heater going to solve the
cold water spikes too I guess, and he said he didn't know. He said the
plumber will be contacting me.

I talked to the plumber and he said that about in 25% of the homes that
they install new hot water heaters, they need expansion tanks, and that
this affects the hot and cold water as well. While I am waiting for a
quote to have this expansion tank installed, I thought I would post and
ask if others have had this experience or could shed some light on it.
Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?


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Default Water spike problems in my house.


buffalobill wrote:
here's an answer to much of the pressure speculation:
www.hdsupply.com
this one has a hose female connector:
300 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
300 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153000
$7.96

this has a 1/4" MIP [male iron pipe thread] connector
100 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
100 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153050
$4.49


Thank You Buffalo Bill,
Now if they could just figure out what to do with it, it would answer
all their questions.

kenny b

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wrote in message
ups.com...

buffalobill wrote:
here's an answer to much of the pressure speculation:
www.hdsupply.com
this one has a hose female connector:
300 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
300 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153000
$7.96

this has a 1/4" MIP [male iron pipe thread] connector
100 PSI WATER PRESSURE TEST GAUGE
100 PSI Water Pressure Test Gauge
THDS Part #: 153050
$4.49


Thank You Buffalo Bill,
Now if they could just figure out what to do with it, it would answer
all their questions.

kenny b

Lots of comments but don't you have anything of value to say? On the other
hand, you must be putting us on because it's hard to imagine you're as dumb
as you appear to be.
MLD




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MLD wrote:
Lots of comments but don't you have anything of value to say? On the other
hand, you must be putting us on because it's hard to imagine you're as dumb
as you appear to be.
MLD


"I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water."

why?
1) pressure
2) temp
3) faulty T&P

How are you going to tell if the discharge is either a faulty T&P or
due to pressure, you can't without a gauge.

How are you going to tell if the pressure is from a bad PRV, you can't
without a gauge.

You can watch the spikes on a gauge and even verify thermal expansion
is happening with a gauge.

Only an idiot would come to a conclusion without facts, at the expense
of a homeowner.

kenny b

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wrote in message
ups.com...


"I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water."

why?
1) pressure
2) temp
3) faulty T&P

How are you going to tell if the discharge is either a faulty T&P or
due to pressure, you can't without a gauge.

How are you going to tell if the pressure is from a bad PRV, you can't
without a gauge.

You can watch the spikes on a gauge and even verify thermal expansion
is happening with a gauge.

Only an idiot would come to a conclusion without facts, at the expense
of a homeowner.
kenny b


Good questions, but a very feeble example. First of all, most home systems
don't have a point of entry where a pressure gage can be installed. Where
would you put one without taking anything apart? Obviously, one can rule
out temperature very quickly--not hard to measure or just shut off the water
heater and see if the problem recurs. Then there are times when it is just
as efficient and cost effective to substitute as it is to try and
troubleshoot. In this case, the T&P first since it is the easiest to remove
and it is also the least expensive. Maybe you can watch spikes on a gage but
in no way are you seeing what's actually happening. Have you ever recorded
large amplitude, high frequency pressure pulses with and without a gage
installed in the system? I have!! First of all, a gage does not have the
capability to respond to a transient pressure pulse; it tends to act as an
accumulator. The net result is that it attenuates and dampens out pressure
pulses in a system. Finally, you didn't address the prime topic of
discussion which is why there is a high flow for approx 10 sec after opening
a faucet. Just use some common troubleshooting sense------- If you have a
normally functioning PRV how can a defective T&P valve cause high flow out
of a faucet for 10 secs? Flow is a function of Supply Pressure and system r
esistance. The only component that is responding to the city supply pressure
is the PRV. It has to reduce that pressure to it's set point (household
pressure) and keep it at that value independent of the flow demand. The
slower the PRV responds, the bigger the variation in household pressure and
the more the variation of flow out of the faucet. In this case a gage would
certainly show a gradual reduction of pressure over a period of 10 secs
pointing to the PRV.
MLD


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MLD wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...


"I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water."

why?
1) pressure
2) temp
3) faulty T&P

How are you going to tell if the discharge is either a faulty T&P or
due to pressure, you can't without a gauge.

How are you going to tell if the pressure is from a bad PRV, you can't
without a gauge.

You can watch the spikes on a gauge and even verify thermal expansion
is happening with a gauge.

Only an idiot would come to a conclusion without facts, at the expense
of a homeowner.
kenny b


Good questions, but a very feeble example. First of all, most home systems
don't have a point of entry where a pressure gage can be installed.Where
would you put one without taking anything apart?


Laundry tray, hose bibb, washing maching valve, the water heater drain
valve itself.
A plumber would know this.


Obviously, one can rule out temperature very quickly--not hard to

measure or just shut off the water heater and see if the problem
recurs.

Thats why it was listed but I responded with pressure.

Then there are times when it is just
as efficient and cost effective to substitute as it is to try and
troubleshoot.


Really, Most professional plumbers not only want to know but need to
know what is causing the problem before repairs are made. Someone's
paying you for a professional opinion and your guessing. I guess you
just defined your self.

As far as the rest, I won't waste my time. A real plumber would have
had the problem solved and repaired on the first trip at a fair price.
Hey thats why we get paid the big bucks, right.

You can see the real plumbers here responded with thermal expansion, a
gauge would prove that in seconds if the system was closed. The gauge
would also prove the PRV was working.The thermal expansion causes the
spike in pressure equally throughout the system as long as the PRV is
working and is closing the system.
We're not building a watch here, this is basic plumbing.

Yes an expansion tank is probably needed to solve the problem, but that
should of been confirmed from the begining. Instead his plumber
followed your play book and changed the PRV twice.

kenny b


In this case, the T&P first since it is the easiest to remove
and it is also the least expensive. Maybe you can watch spikes on a gage but
in no way are you seeing what's actually happening. Have you ever recorded
large amplitude, high frequency pressure pulses with and without a gage
installed in the system? I have!! First of all, a gage does not have the
capability to respond to a transient pressure pulse; it tends to act as an
accumulator. The net result is that it attenuates and dampens out pressure
pulses in a system. Finally, you didn't address the prime topic of
discussion which is why there is a high flow for approx 10 sec after opening
a faucet. Just use some common troubleshooting sense------- If you have a
normally functioning PRV how can a defective T&P valve cause high flow out
of a faucet for 10 secs? Flow is a function of Supply Pressure and system r
esistance. The only component that is responding to the city supply pressure
is the PRV. It has to reduce that pressure to it's set point (household
pressure) and keep it at that value independent of the flow demand. The
slower the PRV responds, the bigger the variation in household pressure and
the more the variation of flow out of the faucet. In this case a gage would
certainly show a gradual reduction of pressure over a period of 10 secs
pointing to the PRV.
MLD


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MLD MLD is offline
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Posts: 283
Default Water spike problems in my house.

Once again you responded by sticking to the simple easy solution of an easy
problem and completely ignored and tip toed away from the initial question
(and my questions) that started this whole discussion. First, to address
your comments: You must be a very unusual plumber--I don't ever recall one
that actually measured anything--typically, they replaced or cleaned out,
nothing scientific or mind boggling.
Thermal expansion: Your comment:*** "The thermal expansion causes the
spike in pressure equally throughout the system as long as the PRV is
working and is closing the system.***
Dribble, and it surely indicates that you really don't understand what
you're talking about. Think of thermal expansion as it applies to the
cooling system in your car. As the coolant temp increases, volume increases,
pressure increases until it gets to the radiator cap setting and then the
coolant spills over to the expansion tank. No spikes in pressure--- it
increases along with the temperature. With the PRV and all faucets closed
you have a volume of water trapped between them--aka, a hydraulic lock. As
the temp is increased, up goes the pressure-what do you think would happen
to your piping if there was no escape route via a relief valve built in to
the PRV or the water heater T&P valve? No different than if the water
froze--something is going to break! Obviously, an expansion tank provides
the room to accept the volume increase--that's why it is recommended. Not
rocket science. Now once again--would you just stick to the subject--Why do
you think there is a flow of water that lasts for approx 10 seconds when the
faucet is opened? What do you do to resolve it?
Oh yes--you guys do make BIG bucks and in many cases it's justified. One
should get paid not only for the actual work but for what he knows. But do
you really know what BIG bucks are? Think of the most expensive thing you
ever worked on or charged. I worked on a product that sells for 2.5 million
dollars. At times I've had to make a judgment call on resolving a problem
and replaced a component(s) worth about $50,000 a piece. Early on in the
development process (and the need to resolve a problem) required the use of
a facility that, with a discount, cost $10,000 an hour with a 10 hr.
minimum. Do the arithmetic, it cost $100,000 a day, sometimes for 2-3
months at a time. Finally, our product ended up as a key component of a
$32,000,000 machine. In the troubleshooting process there is a difference
between shot gunning and selective replacement of components. At times,
the least likely of two components might be replaced first because it might
only take 1 hour vs. 8 hrs. for the most probable one. Better to waste an
hour than maybe 8 hours. Sorry if I got carried away--didn't mean to.
MLD


wrote in message
oups.com...

MLD wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...


"I had a new hot water heater installed, and shortly after that, it
would discharge water."

why?
1) pressure
2) temp
3) faulty T&P

How are you going to tell if the discharge is either a faulty T&P or
due to pressure, you can't without a gauge.

How are you going to tell if the pressure is from a bad PRV, you can't
without a gauge.

You can watch the spikes on a gauge and even verify thermal expansion
is happening with a gauge.

Only an idiot would come to a conclusion without facts, at the

expense
of a homeowner.
kenny b


Good questions, but a very feeble example. First of all, most home

systems
don't have a point of entry where a pressure gage can be installed.Where
would you put one without taking anything apart?


Laundry tray, hose bibb, washing maching valve, the water heater drain
valve itself.
A plumber would know this.


Obviously, one can rule out temperature very quickly--not hard to

measure or just shut off the water heater and see if the problem
recurs.

Thats why it was listed but I responded with pressure.

Then there are times when it is just
as efficient and cost effective to substitute as it is to try and
troubleshoot.


Really, Most professional plumbers not only want to know but need to
know what is causing the problem before repairs are made. Someone's
paying you for a professional opinion and your guessing. I guess you
just defined your self.

As far as the rest, I won't waste my time. A real plumber would have
had the problem solved and repaired on the first trip at a fair price.
Hey thats why we get paid the big bucks, right.

You can see the real plumbers here responded with thermal expansion, a
gauge would prove that in seconds if the system was closed. The gauge
would also prove the PRV was working.The thermal expansion causes the
spike in pressure equally throughout the system as long as the PRV is
working and is closing the system.
We're not building a watch here, this is basic plumbing.

Yes an expansion tank is probably needed to solve the problem, but that
should of been confirmed from the begining. Instead his plumber
followed your play book and changed the PRV twice.

kenny b


In this case, the T&P first since it is the easiest to remove
and it is also the least expensive. Maybe you can watch spikes on a gage

but
in no way are you seeing what's actually happening. Have you ever

recorded
large amplitude, high frequency pressure pulses with and without a gage
installed in the system? I have!! First of all, a gage does not have

the
capability to respond to a transient pressure pulse; it tends to act as

an
accumulator. The net result is that it attenuates and dampens out

pressure
pulses in a system. Finally, you didn't address the prime topic of
discussion which is why there is a high flow for approx 10 sec after

opening
a faucet. Just use some common troubleshooting sense------- If you

have a
normally functioning PRV how can a defective T&P valve cause high flow

out
of a faucet for 10 secs? Flow is a function of Supply Pressure and

system r
esistance. The only component that is responding to the city supply

pressure
is the PRV. It has to reduce that pressure to it's set point (household
pressure) and keep it at that value independent of the flow demand.

The
slower the PRV responds, the bigger the variation in household pressure

and
the more the variation of flow out of the faucet. In this case a gage

would
certainly show a gradual reduction of pressure over a period of 10 secs
pointing to the PRV.
MLD




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Default Water spike problems in my house.



MLD wrote:
Once again you responded by sticking to the simple easy solution of an easy
problem


That's what it's all about bozo. I don't try to baffle people with
bull**** and big words trying to impress them just to prove how smart I
am. There are quite a few very knowledgeable people on this site and I
don't consider a paper plumber like you one.

kenny b



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Default Water spike problems in my house.

MLD wrote:
Once again you responded by sticking to the simple easy solution of
an easy problem and completely ignored and tip toed away from the
initial question (and my questions) that started this whole
discussion. First, to address your comments: You must be a very
unusual plumber--I don't ever recall one that actually measured
anything--typically, they replaced or cleaned out, nothing scientific
or mind boggling.
Thermal expansion: Your comment:*** "The thermal expansion causes
the spike in pressure equally throughout the system as long as the
PRV is working and is closing the system.***


Well, let's see....

Dribble, and it surely indicates that you really don't understand what
you're talking about. Think of thermal expansion as it applies to the
cooling system in your car. As the coolant temp increases, volume
increases, pressure increases until it gets to the radiator cap
setting and then the coolant spills over to the expansion tank.


Not true. Pressure builds until it reaches the pressure limit of the
radiator cap, THEN it spills over to the expansion tank. Haven't you ever
seen a radiator doing an "Old Faithful" or read the caution on a radiator
cap?" In days of yore, there was no expansion tank and the coolant spilled
onto the street.

No
spikes in pressure--- it increases along with the temperature. With
the PRV and all faucets closed you have a volume of water trapped
between them--aka, a hydraulic lock. As the temp is increased, up
goes the pressure-what do you think would happen to your piping if
there was no escape route via a relief valve built in to the PRV or
the water heater T&P valve?


PRVs do NOT allow water to back up into the city's mains. Water heater
valves do NOT drip or flow at the first increase in pressure. It takes a
substantial increase in pressure to trip a water heater relief valve,
radiator cap, or PRV. And I do mean substantial.

No different than if the water
froze--something is going to break!


It's not going to break. Pipes can handle a goodly amount of pressure.

The pressures involved in hot water (or even steam) are much less than the
pressures exerted by freezing water. By a couple of orders of magnitude.
Steam pipes are just regular pipes and none has ever been known to break
from steam pressure. But they will break if exposed to freezing temperatures
and not drained beforehand.


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Default Water spike problems in my house.

Can't help but respond to your comments: Let's take them one at a time:
1. The car coolant:
I said: ****As the coolant temp increases, volume increases, pressure
increases until it gets to the radiator cap
setting and then the coolant spills over to the expansion tank.***
You said:***Not true. Pressure builds until it reaches the pressure limit of
the radiator cap, THEN it spills over to the expansion tank.
One of us has a reading comprehension problem--I don't see any basic
difference between the two comments.

2. You said:***PRVs do NOT allow water to back up into the city's mains.
If you're a plumber, than get with it because that's not true. PRV's will
let allow water back to the main. For your info, below I've pasted a
manufactuer's description of his PRV. Note the comment on thermal expansion.
So you don't miss it----under certain conditions it allows the expanding
water to escape back into the supply main before it can affect the relief
valve.-----

3. Pressures developed by expanding water. A car radiator cap is set for
about 15 psi. T&P's I think somewhere between 100-150 psi, steam systems
anywhere from 100-200 psi (only a guess).
Expanding water in a closed system. Not too hard to come up with a pretty
good number.
Assume the water temp goes from 50 to 150F. The Specific Gravity (or
density) changes about 1.87%.
Use the following expression:
Delta P=(delta V/V)*BM
Delta P= change in pressure
Delta V=change in volume
V=trapped volume
BM= Bulk Modules and for water=312,000psi
So: Delta P= .0187*312,000=5834 psi
If you think that the pressure required to trip a T&P valve was substantial,
what do you think of 5800 psi?
How will the typical household components (water heater, washing machine and
hoses etc) deal with that level of pressure? That's why you have T&P valves
on the water heater and because you don't want water spilling all over the
floor all the time that's why expansion tanks are installed so as to absorb
the volume changes without the accompanying rise in pressure.
MLD


*******The use of a water pressure-reducing valve normally creates a closed
system.
When water is heated in a closed system, it expands, causing an increase in
pressure. This pressure may increase to the set pressure of the relief valve
(on the water heater) causing it to drip, thus releasing the expanding water
and protecting the system against excessive pressure, This increase in the
system pressure over that regulated by the reducing valve is called "thermal
expansion pressure".

No. 25AUB by-pass Model water pressure reducing valves, are an economical
solution of this annoyance, since under certain conditions it allows the
expanding water to escape back into the supply main before it can affect the
relief valve.

Effectiveness of the Thermal Expansion by-pass featureis limited to systems
where the street main pressure is less than the setting of the heater relief
valve. Therefore, the highest allowable pressure setting for the relief
valve should be selected for widest effectiveness of a Thermal Expansion
by-pass






"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
MLD wrote:
Once again you responded by sticking to the simple easy solution of
an easy problem and completely ignored and tip toed away from the
initial question (and my questions) that started this whole
discussion. First, to address your comments: You must be a very
unusual plumber--I don't ever recall one that actually measured
anything--typically, they replaced or cleaned out, nothing scientific
or mind boggling.
Thermal expansion: Your comment:*** "The thermal expansion causes
the spike in pressure equally throughout the system as long as the
PRV is working and is closing the system.***


Well, let's see....

Dribble, and it surely indicates that you really don't understand what
you're talking about. Think of thermal expansion as it applies to the
cooling system in your car. As the coolant temp increases, volume
increases, pressure increases until it gets to the radiator cap
setting and then the coolant spills over to the expansion tank.


Not true. Pressure builds until it reaches the pressure limit of the
radiator cap, THEN it spills over to the expansion tank. Haven't you ever
seen a radiator doing an "Old Faithful" or read the caution on a radiator
cap?" In days of yore, there was no expansion tank and the coolant spilled
onto the street.

No
spikes in pressure--- it increases along with the temperature. With
the PRV and all faucets closed you have a volume of water trapped
between them--aka, a hydraulic lock. As the temp is increased, up
goes the pressure-what do you think would happen to your piping if
there was no escape route via a relief valve built in to the PRV or
the water heater T&P valve?


PRVs do NOT allow water to back up into the city's mains. Water heater
valves do NOT drip or flow at the first increase in pressure. It takes a
substantial increase in pressure to trip a water heater relief valve,
radiator cap, or PRV. And I do mean substantial.

No different than if the water
froze--something is going to break!


It's not going to break. Pipes can handle a goodly amount of pressure.

The pressures involved in hot water (or even steam) are much less than the
pressures exerted by freezing water. By a couple of orders of magnitude.
Steam pipes are just regular pipes and none has ever been known to break
from steam pressure. But they will break if exposed to freezing

temperatures
and not drained beforehand.




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Default Water spike problems in my house.


"Bob Wheatley" wrote in message
...
"eastcoastguyz" wrote

Does an expansion tank sound like the solution?



Yes, with the PRV installed you need an expansion tank.
I'd also recommend a check valve on the cold water inlet of the water
heater to eliminate the cold system as part of the expansion area and to
ensure there's no backflow from the heater into the cold system.



Bob Wheatley


The public water system pressure in my area is always changing up and down
several PSI day and night. I installed an new water heater a couple of years
ago and found that an Xtrol type expansion tank for potable water was
necessary to keep the water heater's pressure relief valve from popping
every so often. I had tried another relief valve first, but the tank was
necessary to absorb the pressure spikes.
"Funny" thing is my water meter (in my basement) can be observed oscillating
forwards and reverse if you look at the spinner dial on it top while you
hear the meters chamber measuring the volume flow while this is happening.
What is NOT so funny is that the actual dials on the meter seem not to go
backwards (the 1/10 cu ft dial) when the spinner is in reverse. I don't
think it adds up to any real dollar amount to my bill. But the frequent
meter noise is annoying.

Funny how this thread came up as I was considering installing a check valve
in the cold water feed to my hot water tank!

I will put one in for sure now.

Bob (another Bob)


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