I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0800, Patches Forever wrote:

I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.

You said "it doesn't cause me a problem," so why worry about it and go
through the expense of getting a surveyor?

It's an important issue, because if it goes unaddressed, it becomes a
permanent easement on your property--in NY, I think it's 10 years of
unaddressed encroachment. Has caused big g-d problems for people, just cuz
they were "nice guys".
I'm no spert, but I believe you can address this w/o making him actually
take it out, by having him pay $1/yr for the use of sed property, which
would become part of the paperwork of his sale. This way, you can cancel
the "lease" at any time, and reclaim your property, if nec. Or just
preserve the value of your prop. by having that option always at hand.
Consult a lawyer, it shouldn't really have to go to court.
If the neighbor becomes a hard-ass, just tell'im: Look, sign the papers,
pay me my fukn dollar a year, or become liable for all my court costs,
damage claims, psych distress, blah blah.

Or, YOU can be the hard-ass and push for removal. Not that you wouldn't be
entitled, just proly a little more confrontational.
--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

I agree, needless expense. I try to get along with all my neighbors
"Karl S" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0800, Patches Forever wrote:

I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to
get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

You said "it doesn't cause me a problem," so why worry about it and go
through the expense of getting a surveyor?

Patches Forever wrote:
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.



You may be toast depending on the laws in your area. In some places you
have x amount of time to bring an issue to the attention of the
offending party otherwise the land is ceded to them. In other places it
is still yours. IOW, need more info.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

First you'd better go to the expense of getting a new survey for your
property to make sure you're correct. It seems to me you're trying to open
a big can of worms for no apparent gain, since you haven't lost anything.
You've let the sidewalk sit there for years, and now you want your neighbor
to go to the expense of removing part of it when he's already going to move
away. You can't lose that 6" through adverse posession, since presumably
you're going to be using it occasionally, if only for fence maintenance, and
are paying taxes on the property. If the sidewalk is actually causing you a
real problem rather than a perceived problem (ie, it's located where you
want to put a gate, or plant some shrubbery) you should be able remove it --
it's your property -- but it would be petty to do so without prior mention
to your neighbor.

What's more likely to happen is that the sale will require a new survey, and
that new survey will show that the neighbor's sidewalk runs outside his
property limits. That may even be an obstacle to the sale, and thus becomes
the neighbor's problem. Better that you should work with the old neighbor
or the new neighbor to solve the issue amicably rather than be seen as the
source of local problems.

If you're certain the sidewalk is on your property and you now want it
removed, you need to make 2-3 phone calls -- (1) to your neighbor to inform
him of the problem; (2) to the neighbor's real estate agent to tell them
that you want to protect your rights to the 6" strip in question, and
perhaps (3) to your city/county code enforcement to report a violation of
local code. But if you do, you'll come off as the bad guy in the scenario.

In our area, apparently several surveys mismarked property lines by 1' or
more. When the mistake was discovered it meant that at least one of the
houses was now built into the set-back area of the side boundary. A couple
of us just jointly planted a couple of shrubs on the line to give us a good
reference for any future construction, but one owner dug holes and put in 6'
tall 4x4 posts at several points along the perimeter -- they look silly --
like miniature undecorated telephone poles -- and he has essentially
isolated himself from the rest of this friendly community.

Of course, we're dealing with 1/2 or 1 acre lakefront lots that are 300+
feet deep. Misplacing something by 6" usually isn't going to even be
noticed. Just for reference, how big is the lot in question?

Before I'd go to the expense of hiring a surveyor I'd find a friend
who has a metal detector and find your property stakes. At settle-
ment you should have been given a plat map of your property. If
you find that the walk is on your side of the line I'd check with
the county to see what your options are. Do you know if your
neighbor had a permit to put in the walk? There should have
been an inspection, at least they do in my county. If all
else fails make an appointment for a free consultation before
deciding. If you're on good terms I'd talk to your neighbor
when you have all the facts. Or, you may just decide to forget
it, you're probably not going to be using those 6 inches anyway
and if there is an easement issue his walk will have to come up.

Good Luck
--
______________
lvMMMCDLXXIX+1
"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0800, "Patches Forever"
wrote:

I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.


I would be very careful about requiring him to remove 6" of sidewalk.
You are required to maintain that 6". And I'm pretty sure he would not
allow you to get on his property to do it. Can you maintain that 6"
from your side of the fence?

--Andy Asberry recommends NewsGuy--

"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells.

A lady at work had a property dispute over 6" of land. They were correct,
but spent over $32,000 in legal fees to prove they were correct. Think hard
before you open that can of worms. There is no simple or cheap way of
removing 6" from a concrete walk. The right time to speak up was when the
forms were put in place.

If they do move the walk, how will you maintain that strip of grass?
Surely, the neighbor will kick your ass off of his walk of you go over there
to trim the grass or paint the fence.

It may be smart to let everyone know where the property line is, but to
demand remediation can be a money pit for all involved. As a bonus, you get
to live next door to someone that now hates you. Consider the $1 a year
leas that was mentioned in another post and have a beer with the neighbors,
both the old and new.

Karl S wrote in
:

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0800, Patches Forever wrote:

I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built
6 inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my
neighbors poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it
is 6 inches over the line. I never said anything because it doesn't
cause me a problem, however he is now going to sell his house and I
think he should cut the walkway back to his edge of the line (at
least) before he sells. I haven't talked to him about it yet but I
will be doing so soon. I may need to get a surveyor to establish the
property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his walkway back I may
have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.

You said "it doesn't cause me a problem," so why worry about it and go
through the expense of getting a surveyor?

Because after some period of time,it allows the neighbor to claim that
piece of property as THEIRS,and reducing the value of your property in the
process.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik writes:

Because after some period of time,it allows the neighbor to claim that
piece of property as THEIRS,and reducing the value of your property in
the process.

No, this does not meet the requirements for "adverse possession".
Residential encroachments generally don't.

If its only 6" its not much but you pay taxes and some areas taxes are
alot, a few years wont establish adverse possession , but you are not
even sure yet on lines, get his survey look at yours, offer to sell him
the 6"

Patches Forever wrote:

... A few years ago one of my neighbors poured a concrete walk right up
against the fence...

How many years? Look up the legal term "laches."

Nick

You need to contact a local attorney. In many areas if a neighbor has
used the property as his own and cared for it, after a given time (usually X
number of years) and the owner has not raised an objection, the neighbor
actually can claim legal title to it. If that is the case, your fence may
now be illegal as most areas require a set back from the property line.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

What use do you have for that six inches of property? How can you
possibly enjoy it with your fence blocking access? I'd just write it
off and be done with it. If the fence ever needs replacing, talk to
your neighbor with survey in hand to make sure you two are on the same
page when you install the new fence. Then try to put your fence up to
the edge of your property or even center the fence on the property
line. The fence benefits both of you, so maybe your neighbor would
even help replace a fence when/if it comes into dis-repair.


"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the

Les wrote:
What use do you have for that six inches of property? How can you
possibly enjoy it with your fence blocking access? I'd just write it
off and be done with it. If the fence ever needs replacing, talk to
your neighbor with survey in hand to make sure you two are on the same
page when you install the new fence. Then try to put your fence up to
the edge of your property or even center the fence on the property
line. The fence benefits both of you, so maybe your neighbor would
even help replace a fence when/if it comes into dis-repair.


How is he going to put any new fence on his property line when that
would put the fence 6" into the neighbor's sidewalk? I'm amazed that
people would put up with this crap from inconsiderate AH neighbors. I
would not put up with it.

First, you need to get at least a first order understanding of exactly
where the property line is. If there are existing metal stakes or
monuments, that would be OK to start. If not, then you need a survey,
which you will anyway if you're going fully purue this.

If the sidewalk is on your side, then I would next check with local
code officials and see what code says about how close to property lines
sidewalks can be placed, if permits are needed and if so, was a permit
obtained. I'd also do this for your own fence to make sure you are in
compliance as this is surely to come up as you pursue it. If there
is an obvious code violation, then I'd start with that angle, as you
may be able to get the municipality to take action.

I would not just let this go, as some have suggested, for several
reasons. Laws vary by state in situations like this and no one here
can tell you the exact laws in your state. If you let this go, you
could wind up with the neighbor having either an easement or possibly
even actual claim to the land under the sidewalk. And what if you want
to sell your home one day? With current disclosure laws, in most
places, you would be required to disclose that you know about this
encroachement. And if you play dumb, what if the seller finds it out
before closing and then demands that you fix it? It could tie up your
selling your home for months or more. Or finds it later and takes you
to small claims court?

Right now, if the neighbor is trying to sell his property, you are in a
much better position. He has every incentive to quickly rectify this,
otherwise, he's got a problem that could block his sale. Plus, if
he's moving, even if you **** him off, he will be gone.

Why didn't you notice this and do something about it when the forms
were going up? That certainly doesn;'t make it your problem though.
Anyone doing any work like this close to a property line should have
been the party getting a surveyor out to establish the correct line.







"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the

Joseph Meehan wrote:

You need to contact a local attorney. In many areas if a neighbor has
used the property as his own and cared for it, after a given time (usually X
number of years) and the owner has not raised an objection, the neighbor
actually can claim legal title to it. If that is the case, your fence may
now be illegal as most areas require a set back from the property line.



I suspect that if you do end up bringing a legal action you will learn
what the term "de minimus" means. The court might very likely say that
six inches on the "other side" of your fence isn't significant enough to
be considered damaging to you, compared to what it would take for the
neighbor to remove that strip of concrete.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

"Jeff Wisnia" wrote in message
et...
Joseph Meehan wrote:

You need to contact a local attorney. In many areas if a neighbor
has used the property as his own and cared for it, after a given time
(usually X number of years) and the owner has not raised an objection,
the neighbor actually can claim legal title to it. If that is the case,
your fence may now be illegal as most areas require a set back from the
property line.



I suspect that if you do end up bringing a legal action you will learn
what the term "de minimus" means. The court might very likely say that six
inches on the "other side" of your fence isn't significant enough to be
considered damaging to you, compared to what it would take for the
neighbor to remove that strip of concrete.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.


I agree with Jeffry. I would not suggest bringing legal action, but I
do believe it would be a good idea to find out what the local legal issues
are. It might prove helpful and there may be a clock running limiting the
time to get things straight and simple with out any legal action.


--
Joseph E. Meehan

Jeff Wisnia wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:

You need to contact a local attorney. In many areas if a neighbor has
used the property as his own and cared for it, after a given time (usually X
number of years) and the owner has not raised an objection, the neighbor
actually can claim legal title to it. If that is the case, your fence may
now be illegal as most areas require a set back from the property line.



I suspect that if you do end up bringing a legal action you will learn
what the term "de minimus" means. The court might very likely say that
six inches on the "other side" of your fence isn't significant enough to
be considered damaging to you, compared to what it would take for the
neighbor to remove that strip of concrete.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.


I doubt any court would find that pouring a concrete sidewalk 6" onto
someone elses property is acceptable. Why? Because besides it's
obvious the neighbor is clearly in the wrong, for a court to just let
this go sends a message to everyone else that's it's ok and acceptable,
which just encourages it. And I'm amazed that there are people who
would put up with this crap and let others walk all over them and just
look the other way. People who pull this crap aren't just doing it
by mistake. You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.

Anybody puts a sidewalk on my property, it's gonna be outta there PDQ.

Patches Forever wrote:
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house

Andy writes:
If you want advice on this, I suggest you post to
misc.legal.moderated which has a lot of attorneys
that hang out there and regularly give advice on
things like this...

At the very least, you should send your neighbor
a registered letter before he sells it, saying that
you have no objection to his using part of your
property for his fence but reserve the right to
have him remove it, pending a valid survey, in the
future.

That should protect you in an adverse possession
claim, but, more important, will put your knowledge
of the encroachment on record......

That way you can tell the "new" owner that you
don't object, and that you sent a letter to to person who
sold it to him before the sale, , and the new owner will have the
old owner to bitch to......

But valid legal advice is not a bad idea at all...


Andy in Eureka

( not an attorney, nor related to one )

wrote in message
You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.


Many people make assumptions. You see a fence, so the assumption is that it
is on the property line. Later you want a sidewalk, so you frame it out to
the assumed property line. Dumb or not, it happens every day. I wonder how
many people think they own out to the curb at the street?

I doubt any court would find that pouring a concrete sidewalk 6" onto
someone elses property is acceptable. Why? Because besides it's
obvious the neighbor is clearly in the wrong, for a court to just let
this go sends a message to everyone else that's it's ok and acceptable,
which just encourages it. And I'm amazed that there are people who
would put up with this crap and let others walk all over them and just
look the other way. People who pull this crap aren't just doing it
by mistake. You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.

Anybody puts a sidewalk on my property, it's gonna be outta there PDQ.


That assumes that said neighbor doesn't have a competing survey
that puts the line somewhere else. And that the neighbor isn't
just an idiot. And that the encroachment inconveniences someone
in any way. If you don't have enough real problems in your
life, then picking a fight with your neighbor over the
6" of weeds between your fence and the property line might
make sense. Personally, I've got better things to worry about.

First, if you don't actually know where the property line is, you would
be foolish to argue over it, so the first step for you should be to
locate the actual boundary. I would question the poster who said that
the neighbor will have to have a survey, which will reveal any error.
Actual surveys of urban property are almost never done for sales, and
even if your neighbor did a survey, it would show incursions onto his
property, not yours. You could, of course, split the cost of a survey.

My feeling is it would be unfair of you to know of a problem, and do
nothing to resolve it, until after the property is sold and the current
owner is far gone. Any subsequent owner would be reluctant to deal with
you if you pulled a stunt like that, so I think that if there is a
problem, you should do something before the sale to resolve it. That
may be as simple as granting an easement, or leasing the encroached
property. Something you and your neighbor could do without going to
court. I would hire a reputable lawyer to document the resolution,
however. Before I bought this house, the owner realized the neighbor's
driveway encroached, so he and the neighbor agreed to an easement;
unfortunately, the half witted lawyer they went to confused thirteen
inches and thirty inches, so when a subsequent neighbor wanted to widen
his driveway, I had to go to court to convince them that there was an
error in the easement, and I shouldn't have to move my house.

Incidentally, around here a neighbor has to give you access to his
property if that is the only way you can work on yours, but if you get
on his wrong side, he may, inadvertently, of course, give you the access
at a time that is inconvenient for you.

Patches Forever wrote:
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.

Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living with
its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the whole
fence line would be 6" inside your property though.

If a survey proves you right, and you are still concerned about it - I would
suggest (at least where I'm from) you'd be the one ripping up the 6" of
concrete (and returning it to your neighbour of course) - shortly before
demarcating your lines better....

Don't bother with court - hire a surveyor, concrete saw & move that fence
(tell the neighbour first) - much cheaper!

"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

I think it's usually referred to in this case as a "doctrine of
aquiescence", and is generally much more than a "few years"! But hey, he
hasn't re-replied to anyone here yet...

wrote in message
...
Patches Forever wrote:

... A few years ago one of my neighbors poured a concrete walk right up
against the fence...

How many years? Look up the legal term "laches."

Nick

Jim Yanik wrote:
Karl S wrote in
:


On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:48:06 -0800, Patches Forever wrote:


I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built
6 inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my
neighbors poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it
is 6 inches over the line. I never said anything because it doesn't
cause me a problem, however he is now going to sell his house and I
think he should cut the walkway back to his edge of the line (at
least) before he sells. I haven't talked to him about it yet but I
will be doing so soon. I may need to get a surveyor to establish the
property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his walkway back I may
have to take him to court. Does any one here have any
suggestions?

Bill S.

You said "it doesn't cause me a problem," so why worry about it and go
through the expense of getting a surveyor?


Because after some period of time,it allows the neighbor to claim that
piece of property as THEIRS,and reducing the value of your property in the
process.

No, it doesn't. Before you start practicing law, gt an education.


There are multiple elements to a claim for adverse possession. To
establish adverse possession, the one claiming the property must show
that the possession was open, notorious, hostile adverse, and continuous


Open means that it occurs 24 hours a day in public. In other words,
if you put a portable shed on my property each night between midnight
and 2:00 am, your are sneaking on and sneaking off. Doesn't cut the
mustard. Your use of my property has to be readily observable to me as
the real owner.

Notorious parallels open. Your use of my property must be known to the
public at large.


Hostile or adverse means that your use of my property must be without my
permission of license. In your scenario, you have known of the use and
generously permitted it. Your neighbor or his successor will always
fail this prong of the adverse possession test. If you really want to
ice the cake, cheaply, send your neighbor a certified mail letter, with
return receipt, giving him written permission and a revocable, no fee
license to use the 6 inch strip for his concrete. His use of the strip
will never, within the requirements for adverse possession, be
"hostile". Term your permission a revocable no fee license and you
preserve your right, and your sucessor's to be an asshole and
unilaterally demand th removal of the concrete from the strip. It
sounds like being an asshole is important to you, so you do want to
preserve your potential to be an asshole.

Continuous means that the use by your neighbor has to uinterrupted for
a term of ears. At common law it was 20 year. That means 24/7/365 for
20 years. Your neighbor comes nowhere close.

Goedjn wrote:
I doubt any court would find that pouring a concrete sidewalk 6" onto
someone elses property is acceptable. Why? Because besides it's
obvious the neighbor is clearly in the wrong, for a court to just let
this go sends a message to everyone else that's it's ok and acceptable,
which just encourages it. And I'm amazed that there are people who
would put up with this crap and let others walk all over them and just
look the other way. People who pull this crap aren't just doing it
by mistake. You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.

Anybody puts a sidewalk on my property, it's gonna be outta there PDQ.


That assumes that said neighbor doesn't have a competing survey
that puts the line somewhere else. And that the neighbor isn't
just an idiot. And that the encroachment inconveniences someone
in any way. If you don't have enough real problems in your
life, then picking a fight with your neighbor over the
6" of weeds between your fence and the property line might
make sense. Personally, I've got better things to worry about.


See how you feel 20 years later, when you go to sell your house and the
buyer discovers the neighbors sidewalk is on the property and refuses
to close until you resolve it. Or when the title insurance company
balks at issuing a policy at closing, because the survey now shows the
neighbors sidewalk is on your property.

glenn P wrote:
Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living with
its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the whole
fence line would be 6" inside your property though.

According to the OP, the fence is neither misplaced, nor shared. It's
entirely inside his property line.




If a survey proves you right, and you are still concerned about it - I would
suggest (at least where I'm from) you'd be the one ripping up the 6" of
concrete (and returning it to your neighbour of course) - shortly before
demarcating your lines better....

Where is it that you're from that a neighbor can pour concrete on your
property and it's up to you to remove it and return it to the neigbor?




Don't bother with court - hire a surveyor, concrete saw & move that fence
(tell the neighbour first) - much cheaper!

And more bad advice. The proper sequence is surveyor, then lawyer to
understand your legal options. You MIGHT wind up in court, but the
above process is far more likely to get you there.




"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

On 2 Nov 2006 06:29:19 -0800, wrote:

I would not just let this go, as some have suggested, for several
reasons. Laws vary by state in situations like this and no one here
can tell you the exact laws in your state. If you let this go, you
could wind up with the neighbor having either an easement or possibly
even actual claim to the land under the sidewalk. And what if you want
to sell your home one day? With current disclosure laws, in most
places, you would be required to disclose that you know about this
encroachement. And if you play dumb, what if the seller finds it out
before closing and then demands that you fix it? It could tie up your
selling your home for months or more. Or finds it later and takes you
to small claims court?

My neighbor has built his driveway over a wedge of my property 18
inches at the base and 40 feet long. He built his house before mine
and that was the only way he could build his driveway to let his car
through to the backyard garage. There is no other access. I don't
have a problem with that as I have lots of land on my corner lot.
Where I had intended to build my garage had curbside access. But in
maximizing my garage lot and driveway I had to shift the layout such
that the driveway was built over the municipal water shutoff valve to
my house. No problem there with me either as I just had to put in an
access hole where the valve was.

Its 25 years now and there has not been any problem from the City or
through five changes of neighbors fo whom three were owner-buyers.
That is a survey must have been done more than once and I wasn't in
the picture. I don't want to open a can of worms as the saying goes.
But should my son sell the house when I am gone will my son's and my
good neighbor policy leave him with a problem from a buyer? Of
course there will be full disclosure during negotiations. I'd just
like to know what issues will be brought up beforehand without lawyers
getting in the way of an amicable agreement.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
If its only 6" its not much but you pay taxes and some areas taxes are
alot, a few years wont establish adverse possession , but you are not
even sure yet on lines, get his survey look at yours, offer to sell him
the 6"

If you have a 10,000 sq. ft. lot in an area zoned for single family 5000,
that
6" could cost you the right to short plat the lot.

Bob

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 15:10:29 -0800, "Bob F"
wrote:


"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
If its only 6" its not much but you pay taxes and some areas taxes are
alot, a few years wont establish adverse possession , but you are not
even sure yet on lines, get his survey look at yours, offer to sell him
the 6"

If you have a 10,000 sq. ft. lot in an area zoned for single family 5000,
that
6" could cost you the right to short plat the lot.

Bob



And *IF* that's the case, it's worth picking a fight over.

In article ,
Bob F wrote:

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
If its only 6" its not much but you pay taxes and some areas taxes are
alot, a few years wont establish adverse possession , but you are not
even sure yet on lines, get his survey look at yours, offer to sell him
the 6"

If you have a 10,000 sq. ft. lot in an area zoned for single family 5000,
that
6" could cost you the right to short plat the lot.

Bob



Here's another idea: After the guy moves start walking around your
fence every day on the OUTSIDE of your yard. After you;ve dones this
for 10 years or so then YOU can claim adverse possesion for a foot or
2 of HIS property.

--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

PaPaPeng wrote:
On 2 Nov 2006 06:29:19 -0800, wrote:

I would not just let this go, as some have suggested, for several
reasons. Laws vary by state in situations like this and no one here
can tell you the exact laws in your state. If you let this go, you
could wind up with the neighbor having either an easement or possibly
even actual claim to the land under the sidewalk. And what if you want
to sell your home one day? With current disclosure laws, in most
places, you would be required to disclose that you know about this
encroachement. And if you play dumb, what if the seller finds it out
before closing and then demands that you fix it? It could tie up your
selling your home for months or more. Or finds it later and takes you
to small claims court?

My neighbor has built his driveway over a wedge of my property 18
inches at the base and 40 feet long. He built his house before mine
and that was the only way he could build his driveway to let his car
through to the backyard garage. There is no other access. I don't
have a problem with that as I have lots of land on my corner lot.


Did you know about it at the time? If you were OK with it, then you
should have consuted an attorney and given the neighbor an easement.
Actually, the neighbor is dumb or very inconsiderate to do this without
getting an easement.

If you want to rectify it, consult an attorney. You very likely can
just grant him an easement which makes the whole thing legal and avoids
any questions with a future sale. If it were me, I would expect the
neighbor to pay for any costs incurred, legal, survey etc. That is
why the time to do this is BEFORE he's gone ahead and done it. After
letting it go for years, who knows what the reaction will be or if he's
willing to pay the costs.

Most lawyers offer a free consultation, so that would be an easy first
step.




Where I had intended to build my garage had curbside access. But in
maximizing my garage lot and driveway I had to shift the layout such
that the driveway was built over the municipal water shutoff valve to
my house. No problem there with me either as I just had to put in an
access hole where the valve was.

Its 25 years now and there has not been any problem from the City or
through five changes of neighbors fo whom three were owner-buyers.
That is a survey must have been done more than once and I wasn't in
the picture. I don't want to open a can of worms as the saying goes.
But should my son sell the house when I am gone will my son's and my
good neighbor policy leave him with a problem from a buyer? Of
course there will be full disclosure during negotiations. I'd just
like to know what issues will be brought up beforehand without lawyers
getting in the way of an amicable agreement.

wrote in message
oups.com...

glenn P wrote:
Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living
with
its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the
whole
fence line would be 6" inside your property though.

According to the OP, the fence is neither misplaced, nor shared. It's
entirely inside his property line.



Here we go again...

Yes, if a fence is inside his property line, someone had to put it there,
and it's in the wrong position (6" inside), creating a communal impression
of an incorrect property line. Apparently not long enough has passed for it
to be considered an accepted property line.



If a survey proves you right, and you are still concerned about it - I
would
suggest (at least where I'm from) you'd be the one ripping up the 6" of
concrete (and returning it to your neighbour of course) - shortly before
demarcating your lines better....

Where is it that you're from that a neighbor can pour concrete on your
property and it's up to you to remove it and return it to the neigbor?




Don't bother with court - hire a surveyor, concrete saw & move that fence
(tell the neighbour first) - much cheaper!

And more bad advice. The proper sequence is surveyor, then lawyer to
understand your legal options. You MIGHT wind up in court, but the
above process is far more likely to get you there.



You don't seem to understand the court's (and the taxpayer's on their
behalf) loathing to get involved in petty matters. This is a problem between
two parties, who don't need to spend the city's funds on working out who's
right, because the laws are easily available to anyone who is trained to
look for them.

The doctrine of acquiescence appears not to be applicable here (not legal
advice due to insufficient information, state variations + I'm not even in
that country). This is (where I'm from) the only thing stopping the guy from
removing the offending concrete.

There's several courses in law available in night school I'm told...

Go for it, Onya fella!



"Patches Forever" wrote in message
news
I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built 6
inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my neighbors
poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it is 6 inches
over
the line. I never said anything because it doesn't cause me a problem,
however he is now going to sell his house and I think he should cut the
walkway back to his edge of the line (at least) before he sells. I
haven't
talked to him about it yet but I will be doing so soon. I may need to
get
a
surveyor to establish the property line. Then, if my neighbor won't
cut
his
walkway back I may have to take him to court. Does any one here
have
any
suggestions?

Bill S.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

wrote in message
You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.


Many people make assumptions. You see a fence, so the assumption is that
it is on the property line. Later you want a sidewalk, so you frame it
out to the assumed property line. Dumb or not, it happens every day. I
wonder how many people think they own out to the curb at the street?


Not many, I sincerely hope, otherwise they'd get an unexpected course in
concrete removal, and turf laying.

glenn P wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

glenn P wrote:
Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living
with
its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the
whole
fence line would be 6" inside your property though.

According to the OP, the fence is neither misplaced, nor shared. It's
entirely inside his property line.



Here we go again...

Yes, if a fence is inside his property line, someone had to put it there,
and it's in the wrong position (6" inside), creating a communal impression
of an incorrect property line. Apparently not long enough has passed for it
to be considered an accepted property line.

In the wrong place according to whom? If I put up a fence, I would do
it exactly as the OP did, with it slightly inside my property line. I
don't care about a "communal impression." I want a fence that I own
and control. If you place it on the property line, in most cases
it's a jointly owned fence that the property owners on each side are
now jointly responsible for.






If a survey proves you right, and you are still concerned about it - I
would
suggest (at least where I'm from) you'd be the one ripping up the 6" of
concrete (and returning it to your neighbour of course) - shortly before
demarcating your lines better....

Where is it that you're from that a neighbor can pour concrete on your
property and it's up to you to remove it and return it to the neigbor?




Don't bother with court - hire a surveyor, concrete saw & move that fence
(tell the neighbour first) - much cheaper!

And more bad advice. The proper sequence is surveyor, then lawyer to
understand your legal options. You MIGHT wind up in court, but the
above process is far more likely to get you there.



You don't seem to understand the court's (and the taxpayer's on their
behalf) loathing to get involved in petty matters. This is a problem between
two parties, who don't need to spend the city's funds on working out who's
right, because the laws are easily available to anyone who is trained to
look for them.

Oh, really? Do you pull your own teeth? Take out your appendix too?
Someone who has a neighbor that poured a sidewalk 6" on there
property and wants to know their options, needs a lawyer. Last time I
checked that's exactly who's trained to look for laws, interpret them
and figure out what course of action is available.

And what's your problem with someone who pays real estate taxes for
years calling up a code official to ask about the municipality's
regulations on where you can place a sidewalk, permits, etc? He's
paying the guy's salary, isn't he?




The doctrine of acquiescence appears not to be applicable here (not legal
advice due to insufficient information, state variations + I'm not even in
that country). This is (where I'm from) the only thing stopping the guy from
removing the offending concrete.

There's several courses in law available in night school I'm told...

Go for it, Onya fella!

Yeah, that's a good idea, go to law school instead of getting a free
consultation with a lawyer or calling up the code official. You must
have an interesting time getting through life.

"glenn P" wrote in
:


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

wrote in message
You'd have to be a complete moron to pour a sidewalk
without knowing for sure, via a survey, where the line is.


Many people make assumptions. You see a fence, so the assumption is
that it is on the property line. Later you want a sidewalk, so you
frame it out to the assumed property line. Dumb or not, it happens
every day. I wonder how many people think they own out to the curb
at the street?


Not many, I sincerely hope, otherwise they'd get an unexpected course
in concrete removal, and turf laying.




Generally,the city/county does the work,and sends the prop.owner a bill for
it,Or they send a letter requiring removal (in 30 days?)with the option of
the city/county doing it and billing the owner.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Finding the keyboard operational
Patches Forever entered:

I have a fence that encircles my property and (I believe) it is built
6 inches inside of my property line. A few years ago one of my
neighbors poured a concrete walk right up against the fence, i.e. it
is 6 inches over the line. I never said anything because it doesn't
cause me a problem, however he is now going to sell his house and I
think he should cut the walkway back to his edge of the line (at
least) before he sells. I haven't talked to him about it yet but I
will be doing so soon. I may need to get a surveyor to establish the
property line. Then, if my neighbor won't cut his walkway back I may
have to take him to court. Does any one here have any suggestions?

Bill S.

I recently talked to a lawyer friend about this topic. This is what I
learned with the following caveats:
1. this is in NJ. Your state and local laws may not be the same.
2. this was a casual conversation, not legal advice. In fact my friend would
not represent me because he would rather have me as a friend then a client.

I wouldn't make an issue of this even if it were 6" by a mile. Just because
of the aggravation of maintaning it. In my neighborhood everyone cuts their
lawn up to the neighbors driveway ( one the one side) because it just makes
the lawn look neater. We also shovel each others snow if needed. Telling
your neighbor that you will take him to court if he doesn't cut the sidewalk
back is just asking for trouble IMO.
Everyone here ties their fence into their neighbors fence because it is
cheaper and easier. According to my friend this may be considered as an
"accepted practice" and be perfectly legal. Same as the fence issue.
Since the realtor and the buyer have both looked at the property, it is
their responsibility to bring the matter up. Since the walk encroaches on
the property line, it's the buyers problem. You might want to tell the
realtor just to be nice.
Title insurance only checks to see if there is a lein on the property, not
that the property bounderies are exact. If zoning laws have changed, they
may or may not check them.
You will only get a plat from the city for your lot when you buy. If you
want a survey as a buyer, you pay for it. I seem to remember that the plat
from the city has a notice that it may not be accurate and does not take the
place of a survey. Good luck trying to find the survey stakes. Mine doen't
exist.
Finally, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain property via
adverse possesion if the property owner is paying the taxes. If the propery
is not being cited for lack of maintenance, it's not necessarily eligible
for adverse possesion even if you cut the grass.
Just so you know, this conversation came about in regards to a railroad
siding that is abandoned and will never be used behind my property. The
conversation moved to my neighbors driveway, my driveway and the fences.
Based on the conditions and the legal expenses, that 6" may be high on the
lists of the most expensive real estate on the planet.
Hope this helps
Bob

--?
--?
Coffee worth staying up for - NY Times
www.moondoggiecoffee.com

wrote in message
oups.com...

glenn P wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

glenn P wrote:
Since the fence is owned by both of you, the responsibility for/living
with
its misplacement is pretty much shared. I find it hard to believe the
whole
fence line would be 6" inside your property though.

According to the OP, the fence is neither misplaced, nor shared. It's
entirely inside his property line.



Here we go again...

Yes, if a fence is inside his property line, someone had to put it there,
and it's in the wrong position (6" inside), creating a communal
impression
of an incorrect property line. Apparently not long enough has passed for
it
to be considered an accepted property line.

In the wrong place according to whom? If I put up a fence, I would do
it exactly as the OP did, with it slightly inside my property line. I
don't care about a "communal impression." I want a fence that I own
and control. If you place it on the property line, in most cases
it's a jointly owned fence that the property owners on each side are
now jointly responsible for.



Since you obviously have little idea what you are talking about, I won't
bother arguing with you.

But basically, for anyone else reading this, if you put up a fence inside a
property line, then you should be at least partly liable for any problems
caused by this. The neighbour shouldn't have to employ a surveyor to
determine where you think your boundary might be. As I said, (where I'm
from) fences between properties are always jointly owned. Is what you're
suggesting that each neighbour erect their own fence?

"Controlling" a fence...... Now I need to hit that plonker button - where
is it!?























Done!

"glenn P" wrote in message

As I said, (where I'm from) fences between properties are always jointly
owned. Is what you're suggesting that each neighbour erect their own
fence?

Depends on where you are from. If you live in some housing development where
everyone wants a fence, that makes sense. My neighbor two doors away has
one and he paid for all of it. If my next door or rear neighbors want a
fence, that is their prerogative and I'm not paying a penny because I don't
want or need a fence. So far they have not either.