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#1
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Hi There,
I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave |
#2
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
"ZZ" wrote in message ... Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. |
#3
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Your house was mis-wired! There should never be a 14ga wire on a 20A
breaker AND the kitchen outlets are required to be 20A. -- Steve Barker "ZZ" wrote in message ... Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave |
#4
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
In article , ZZ wrote:
Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - |
#5
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? |
#6
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote: Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. I doubt if your expresso machine actually draws 20 amps. It probably draws less than 10 amps. A nice little gadget to have around the house is the "Kill A Watt" meter. It will tell you how much current any device with a plug is drawing. They are relatively inexpensive. Here's an example website http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.p...FQjqYAodamF2Gw It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. |
#7
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
As others have said, all kitchen outlets are required to be on 20 amp
circuits, it is Ok that the receptacles are 15 amp as long as there is more than one outlet on the circuit. The cable should be 12 gauge. If your appliance has a 20 amp plug on it, it requires a dedicated 20 amp circuit and outlet "ZZ" wrote in message ... Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave |
#8
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Don't trust the color of the sheath. Color coding of the sheath is a recent
feature. Older cable may have been used and it was all white or ivory for virtually all gauges. Read the gauge number printed on the side of the cable sheath to confirm the actual wire size used. "ZZ" wrote in message ... If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). |
#9
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
What you are doing is wrong, and you can get good quality 15 amp outlets.
The cheap ones are residential grade. His espresso machine must draw more than 10 amps or it would have a 15 amp plug on it. There are actually certain codes to this stuff, it isn't just decided willy -nilly wrote in message ups.com... ZZ wrote: Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. I doubt if your expresso machine actually draws 20 amps. It probably draws less than 10 amps. A nice little gadget to have around the house is the "Kill A Watt" meter. It will tell you how much current any device with a plug is drawing. They are relatively inexpensive. Here's an example website http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.p...FQjqYAodamF2Gw It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. |
#10
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
"ZZ" wrote in message .. . A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? Picture having two items plugged in, each drawing 10a. (or one misfunctioning item drawing more current than it should) What will happen? |
#11
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote: Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave Does your expresso machine have a 20-amp plug on it or a 15-amp plug? If it has a 20-amp plug on it and you have 14-gauge wiring, I wouldn't plug it in to your electrical system no matter what sort of socket you have. What is the electrical rating of the expresso machine? You can usually find the electrical rating on the bottom or the back of the machine. |
#13
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote:
A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? It doesn't make any difference how many 15 amp receptacles are on the circuit. Breaker size has nothing to do with the plug in appliances. The breaker size is based on the wire it has to protect. |
#14
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
On 15 Oct 2006 10:24:21 -0700, wrote:
ZZ wrote: Hi There, I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Will I be able to switch out 1 of the 15 amp receptacles with a 20 amp receptacle without causing a problem? Thanks, Dave I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. I doubt if your expresso machine actually draws 20 amps. It probably draws less than 10 amps. A nice little gadget to have around the house is the "Kill A Watt" meter. It will tell you how much current any device with a plug is drawing. They are relatively inexpensive. Here's an example website http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.p...FQjqYAodamF2Gw I have one of those it's easy to use. When you first plug it in, it shows the line voltage. That's make it easy to check for voltage drop from load. Press one button and you're measuring current used by the attached appliance. It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. -- 71 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#15
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
I'm confused on if I can replace an 15 amp receptacle with a 20 amp receptacle. I want to be able to hook up a espresso machine in my kitchen and the machine requires a 20amp circuit. The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen. Do you mean a recepticle rated for 20amps, or one with a 20 amp plugin? The 20 amp plugin has one of the blades turned 90' (See http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/p...9_front200.jpg) You should *NOT* install one of those 20 amp plugin receptacles unless you know that the whole circuit is on 12 gauge wire and on a 20 amp breaker. Now, if you want to just user a higher rated standard outlet (See http://www.electronicsoutfitter.com/...-5325-wsp.jpg), that's fine. |
#16
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote:
If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). The color coding of nonmetallic cable jackets is a relatively recent development. The cable is labeled every two feet along it's entire length to show it's gage and construction. Check the cable's labeling to determine the actual gage of the conductors. If it really is size fourteen American wire gage then you need to change the breaker to fifteen amperes or run new cable. Since were talking about a kitchen counter receptacle circuit it should be twelve gage wire. -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison |
#17
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
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#18
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote:
If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). If it really is 14 you don't try to put 20 amps on it. It is illegal and unsafe. If you need 20 amps you will need a new wire. -- Joseph Meehan Dia duit |
#19
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
mm wrote:
I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. And what kind of wire do you have in the walls? If it is 14 gauge you are just looking for trouble. 19 or 20 amps WILL overheat 14 gauge wire. Why have fuses and circuit breakers at all if you're going to encourage the use of loads that are bigger than the wire can handle? And just what makes you jump to the conclusion that if the wire is 14 gauge that it's NOT protected by a 15 amp breaker? If it is, you could plug in a 30 amp load and the wire is still protected, 'cause the breaker will open the instant you plug in too great a load. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. If you can You might not be planning to use bigger stuff, but what about your teen-age son, your brother in law, your wife, your father and anyone doing anything when you are out of town, out of the house, in the hospital, dead, or have sold the house to innocent but unskilled people. Same comment as above. It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. I agree that he should get the rest of it checked. He might want to check with owners of other houses built by the same builder. If problems are not too many and not too big, maybe they can let the original electrician fix them. Simplest thing for him to do if he can't get at enouch of the cable jacket to see what's printed on it is to bum a couple of inches of 14 gauge and 12 gauge wire someplace and compare the conductor sizes to what he's got coming from that 20 amp breaker. The difference is pretty obvious. snipped -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?" |
#20
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
If still in doubt after all these replies, you need a qualified electrical
inspector to check it out. If you do in fact have 14ga wire on the countertop outlets then the house WAS NOT built to electrical code. You will have to demand the builder fix it. I suspect after all the replies, that you probably have white (bone) colored 12 ga wire. I can't imagine anyone purposely wiring a house wrong. But on the other hand, it IS on a 15A breaker. That is definitely wrong, wrong wrong for kitchen outlets. -- Steve Barker "ZZ" wrote in message ... If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). |
#21
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
It's on a 20 amp breaker, which lends itself to your theory that the OP is
mistaken about the wire size "Steve Barker LT" wrote in message . com... If still in doubt after all these replies, you need a qualified electrical inspector to check it out. If you do in fact have 14ga wire on the countertop outlets then the house WAS NOT built to electrical code. You will have to demand the builder fix it. I suspect after all the replies, that you probably have white (bone) colored 12 ga wire. I can't imagine anyone purposely wiring a house wrong. But on the other hand, it IS on a 15A breaker. That is definitely wrong, wrong wrong for kitchen outlets. -- Steve Barker "ZZ" wrote in message ... If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). |
#22
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
In article , ZZ wrote:
A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? Yes, even if it does. If the circuit has been run with 14 ga wire, by code it should NOT have a 20 amp breaker. There are several good DIY books that will explain the rationale for this. If you have a library nearby they will likely have one or more of them available. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - |
#23
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Does your expresso machine have a 20-amp plug on it or a 15-amp plug? If it has a 20-amp plug on it and you have 14-gauge wiring, I wouldn't plug it in to your electrical system no matter what sort of socket you have. What is the electrical rating of the expresso machine? You can usually find the electrical rating on the bottom or the back of the machine. It will be a 20 amp plug. It is supposed to draw up tp 18 amps |
#24
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
The problem with the wiring in the OPs circuit is not with the
outlets, it is with having a 20 amp breaker on a 14 ga circuit. I wouldn't be worried about having a 20 amp _outlet_ on the 14 ga wire, provided the breaker was the correct size. In fact, I think there is a code section that even acknowledges this for the sake of allowing the 20 amp outlets to be used with 15 amp/14 ga wiring. Even if the outlet is rated for 20 amps, as long as the wiring is protected at the proper current, i.e. 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge circuit, afety won't be compromised, since the breaker will still trip at 15 amps. What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the cirucit is only rated for 15 amps. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - |
#25
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
wrote in message ... In article , ZZ wrote: A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? Yes, even if it does. If the circuit has been run with 14 ga wire, by code it should NOT have a 20 amp breaker. There are several good DIY books that will explain the rationale for this. If you have a library nearby they will likely have one or more of them available. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - Thank you ALL for the valuable help! I will contact my builder tomorrow regarding the wire. Once that has been taken care of I will replace my 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones |
#26
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
wrote in message ... The problem with the wiring in the OPs circuit is not with the outlets, it is with having a 20 amp breaker on a 14 ga circuit. I wouldn't be worried about having a 20 amp _outlet_ on the 14 ga wire, provided the breaker was the correct size. In fact, I think there is a code section that even acknowledges this for the sake of allowing the 20 amp outlets to be used with 15 amp/14 ga wiring. Even if the outlet is rated for 20 amps, as long as the wiring is protected at the proper current, i.e. 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge circuit, afety won't be compromised, since the breaker will still trip at 15 amps. What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the cirucit is only rated for 15 amps. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - Sorry not posting for hours on this subject, I got called into work |
#27
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 03:19:33 GMT, "ZZ" wrote:
wrote in message ... In article , ZZ wrote: A 14 ga circuit should be on a 15 amp breaker, not a 20. Putting a 20 amp outlet on that same circuit is making the problem worse. Even if the 20 amp breaker has 3 15 amp receptacles on the one circuit? Yes, even if it does. If the circuit has been run with 14 ga wire, by code it should NOT have a 20 amp breaker. There are several good DIY books that will explain the rationale for this. If you have a library nearby they will likely have one or more of them available. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - Thank you ALL for the valuable help! I will contact my builder tomorrow regarding the wire. Once that has been taken care of I will replace my 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones Let us know when you get this resolved. I am interested in what recourse you have when you find a building error. I am guessing that this will be a costly mistake. The wire from the panel to the kitchen would need to be changed and all the wire between the receptacles. For them to change all the wire to 12 would mean pulling it all out. Which means that if you bought 20 amp replacement receptacles they would cost nothing to change. It all has to be disconnected and reconnected. If you do get the builder to replace the wiring, I would consider trying to get an extra 20 amp circuit in the kitchen from the panel. With all the fancy gadgets you can buy for the kitchen two are barely adequate. The microwave should be on one 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator should be on the other one. Having a 3 would add to your appliance comfort level. |
#28
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Tom Horne, Electrician wrote:
ZZ wrote: If it is #14 wire you must have a 15a breaker and 15a outlets. Are you sure it is #14? Kitchens have required #12 for a while now. Yes, it is #14/2. I do have a refrigerator that has a 20 amp receptacle in the kitchen with 12 gauge wire, but that's it. In my house, all the 12 gauge wire has a yellow sheath & all the 14 gauge has a bone white sheath. This is a brand new house (5 months old). The color coding of nonmetallic cable jackets is a relatively recent development. The cable is labeled every two feet along it's entire length to show it's gage and construction. Check the cable's labeling to determine the actual gage of the conductors. If it really is size fourteen American wire gage then you need to change the breaker to fifteen amperes or run new cable. Since were talking about a kitchen counter receptacle circuit it should be twelve gage wire. The problem is that the cable is not generally observable, just the wire at the box (maybe at the panel). The simplest solution to wire size is to get a piece of known 14 gage and a piece of known 12 gage and the difference in size will be readily apparent even to a newbie. |
#29
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:34:31 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: mm wrote: I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. And what kind of wire do you have in the walls? If it is 14 gauge you are just looking for trouble. 19 or 20 amps WILL overheat 14 gauge wire. Why have fuses and circuit breakers at all if you're going to encourage the use of loads that are bigger than the wire can handle? And just what makes you jump to the conclusion that if the wire is 14 gauge that it's NOT protected by a 15 amp breaker? I didn't jump. This is part of the original post "The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen." More below. If it is, you could plug in a 30 amp load and the wire is still protected, 'cause the breaker will open the instant you plug in too great a load. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. If you can You might not be planning to use bigger stuff, but what about your teen-age son, your brother in law, your wife, your father and anyone doing anything when you are out of town, out of the house, in the hospital, dead, or have sold the house to innocent but unskilled people. Same comment as above. It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. I agree that he should get the rest of it checked. He might want to check with owners of other houses built by the same builder. If problems are not too many and not too big, maybe they can let the original electrician fix them. Simplest thing for him to do if he can't get at enouch of the cable jacket to see what's printed on it is to bum a couple of inches of 14 gauge and 12 gauge wire someplace and compare the conductor sizes to what he's got coming from that 20 amp breaker. The difference is pretty obvious. Well, I was thinking the problems may not be limited to gauge. Anyone who would put in 20 amp breakers with 14 gauge wire can't be trusted to do anything right. snipped |
#30
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote: Does your expresso machine have a 20-amp plug on it or a 15-amp plug? If it has a 20-amp plug on it and you have 14-gauge wiring, I wouldn't plug it in to your electrical system no matter what sort of socket you have. What is the electrical rating of the expresso machine? You can usually find the electrical rating on the bottom or the back of the machine. It will be a 20 amp plug. It is supposed to draw up tp 18 amps This is all sounding rather odd . . . "will be a 20 amp plug" . . . "supposed to draw". How do you know it's supposed to draw up to 18 amps? If memory serves, UL will not approve an appliance that draws more than 16A on a 20A circuit, yet you have an appliance that supposedly draws 18 amps. Is this some sort of a homemade device? Even commercial expresso machines only take about 1700 W (or 14 amps). Here's an example: "Cecilware Venezia Automatic Espresso Machines w/ Volumetric Flow Control VAE-1 CEC-VAE-1 $3,150.00 Touch Pad Control Panel. Makes Single or Double Espresso; 1 or 2 cups at a time. Double gauge for boiler and pump pressure control. Hot water dispenser. Extra long movable steam wand. Water inlet valve. Built-in motor pump with in-line filter. 4" adjustable legs. Pod filter adapter included. European style to fit every decor. Number of heads: 1 group. 19.5"L. 120V, 1.7KW, 20 amps. Makes 240 cups/hour. Boiler size: 7 quarts." What's the make and model number on your expresso machine? |
#31
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
snip What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install
the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the circuit is only rated for 15 amps. He currently has three outlets on the 15 amp wire, which allows him to plug in several devices simultaneously causing an overload of the conductors, regardless of the outlet ratings wrote in message ... The problem with the wiring in the OPs circuit is not with the outlets, it is with having a 20 amp breaker on a 14 ga circuit. I wouldn't be worried about having a 20 amp _outlet_ on the 14 ga wire, provided the breaker was the correct size. In fact, I think there is a code section that even acknowledges this for the sake of allowing the 20 amp outlets to be used with 15 amp/14 ga wiring. Even if the outlet is rated for 20 amps, as long as the wiring is protected at the proper current, i.e. 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge circuit, afety won't be compromised, since the breaker will still trip at 15 amps. What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the cirucit is only rated for 15 amps. -- No dumb questions, just dumb answers. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - |
#32
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
wrote in message ups.com... ZZ wrote: Does your expresso machine have a 20-amp plug on it or a 15-amp plug? If it has a 20-amp plug on it and you have 14-gauge wiring, I wouldn't plug it in to your electrical system no matter what sort of socket you have. What is the electrical rating of the expresso machine? You can usually find the electrical rating on the bottom or the back of the machine. It will be a 20 amp plug. It is supposed to draw up tp 18 amps This is all sounding rather odd . . . "will be a 20 amp plug" . . . "supposed to draw". How do you know it's supposed to draw up to 18 amps? If memory serves, UL will not approve an appliance that draws more than 16A on a 20A circuit, yet you have an appliance that supposedly draws 18 amps. Is this some sort of a homemade device? Even commercial expresso machines only take about 1700 W (or 14 amps). Here's an example: "Cecilware Venezia Automatic Espresso Machines w/ Volumetric Flow Control VAE-1 CEC-VAE-1 $3,150.00 Touch Pad Control Panel. Makes Single or Double Espresso; 1 or 2 cups at a time. Double gauge for boiler and pump pressure control. Hot water dispenser. Extra long movable steam wand. Water inlet valve. Built-in motor pump with in-line filter. 4" adjustable legs. Pod filter adapter included. European style to fit every decor. Number of heads: 1 group. 19.5"L. 120V, 1.7KW, 20 amps. Makes 240 cups/hour. Boiler size: 7 quarts." What's the make and model number on your expresso machine? Here is the information on it: http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/...o/laspaziales1 |
#33
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
Something else no one appears to have pointed out. You problem is
bigger than just making sure that you have a 20amp outlet on a 20amp breaker with 12 gauge wiring. Since this one appliance requires almost all the capacity of that circuit, it means you really can't have any other loads on other outlets on that circuit. In other words, it will likely need it's own circuit. However, from the description, it appears that this model can be used in a mode where only one heater is active at a time, meaning it will work on a 15 amp circuit. If you can live with it in that mode, it could funciton on a 20amp circuit with some room for other loads. They also have a 15 amp model, which I'm guessing is basicly the same thing, but hard wired wo that it only runs in that one heater at a time mode. |
#34
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
wrote in message oups.com... Something else no one appears to have pointed out. You problem is bigger than just making sure that you have a 20amp outlet on a 20amp breaker with 12 gauge wiring. Since this one appliance requires almost all the capacity of that circuit, it means you really can't have any other loads on other outlets on that circuit. In other words, it will likely need it's own circuit. However, from the description, it appears that this model can be used in a mode where only one heater is active at a time, meaning it will work on a 15 amp circuit. If you can live with it in that mode, it could funciton on a 20amp circuit with some room for other loads. They also have a 15 amp model, which I'm guessing is basicly the same thing, but hard wired wo that it only runs in that one heater at a time mode. Good point. Even though there are multiple receptacles on the 1 20amp circuit, nothing else will be populating the other receptacles, other then maybe recharging a cell phone or the coffee grinder. What will draw the most amperage will be using the espresso machine to pour a shot & steaming at the same time, other then that it should not go over 15 amps |
#35
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
mm wrote:
On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:34:31 -0400, Jeff Wisnia wrote: mm wrote: I have installed quite a few 20-amp receptacles in my house as replacements for 15-amp receptacles over the years. In fact, whenever I happen to replace a 15-amp receptacle, I usually use a 20-amp receptacle. And what kind of wire do you have in the walls? If it is 14 gauge you are just looking for trouble. 19 or 20 amps WILL overheat 14 gauge wire. Why have fuses and circuit breakers at all if you're going to encourage the use of loads that are bigger than the wire can handle? And just what makes you jump to the conclusion that if the wire is 14 gauge that it's NOT protected by a 15 amp breaker? I didn't jump. This is part of the original post "The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen." More below. If it is, you could plug in a 30 amp load and the wire is still protected, 'cause the breaker will open the instant you plug in too great a load. Not because I'm actually going to draw 20-amps out of that socket, but simply because they are higher-quality outlets. It usually only takes a few minutes to swap them out. If you can You might not be planning to use bigger stuff, but what about your teen-age son, your brother in law, your wife, your father and anyone doing anything when you are out of town, out of the house, in the hospital, dead, or have sold the house to innocent but unskilled people. Same comment as above. It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. I agree that he should get the rest of it checked. He might want to check with owners of other houses built by the same builder. If problems are not too many and not too big, maybe they can let the original electrician fix them. Simplest thing for him to do if he can't get at enouch of the cable jacket to see what's printed on it is to bum a couple of inches of 14 gauge and 12 gauge wire someplace and compare the conductor sizes to what he's got coming from that 20 amp breaker. The difference is pretty obvious. Well, I was thinking the problems may not be limited to gauge. Anyone who would put in 20 amp breakers with 14 gauge wire can't be trusted to do anything right. snipped In explanation of my tweaking you on that point; Your post, which I replied to, was NOT a direct reply to the OP's post, where he certainly did write that it was a 20 amp breaker. Your post was a reply to a post by "mgkelson" in which he simply said he used 20 amp recepticals as replacements for 15 amp ones, because he felt the 20 amp ones were "higher quality". He said nothing about the breakers on those circuits being 20 amps. It's easy to lose track of who said what on extended multiforked threads like this one, I do it all the time. Peace, Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." |
#36
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
ZZ wrote: wrote in message ups.com... ZZ wrote: Does your expresso machine have a 20-amp plug on it or a 15-amp plug? If it has a 20-amp plug on it and you have 14-gauge wiring, I wouldn't plug it in to your electrical system no matter what sort of socket you have. What is the electrical rating of the expresso machine? You can usually find the electrical rating on the bottom or the back of the machine. It will be a 20 amp plug. It is supposed to draw up tp 18 amps This is all sounding rather odd . . . "will be a 20 amp plug" . . . "supposed to draw". How do you know it's supposed to draw up to 18 amps? If memory serves, UL will not approve an appliance that draws more than 16A on a 20A circuit, yet you have an appliance that supposedly draws 18 amps. Is this some sort of a homemade device? Even commercial expresso machines only take about 1700 W (or 14 amps). Here's an example: "Cecilware Venezia Automatic Espresso Machines w/ Volumetric Flow Control VAE-1 CEC-VAE-1 $3,150.00 Touch Pad Control Panel. Makes Single or Double Espresso; 1 or 2 cups at a time. Double gauge for boiler and pump pressure control. Hot water dispenser. Extra long movable steam wand. Water inlet valve. Built-in motor pump with in-line filter. 4" adjustable legs. Pod filter adapter included. European style to fit every decor. Number of heads: 1 group. 19.5"L. 120V, 1.7KW, 20 amps. Makes 240 cups/hour. Boiler size: 7 quarts." What's the make and model number on your expresso machine? Here is the information on it: http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/...o/laspaziales1 That's interesting. I don't know a thing about Expresso. Can you put ordinary Folgers coffee in it and then get a fast cup of coffee? It looks like someone has actually done a power spread sheet on that appliance. You can get it at: http://www.rimpo.org/s1/S1Power.html. They show a maximum current draw of 16.67 amps. However, they indicate a 12% fudge factor, so it might be rated at 16 amps maximum. As I said, I think that's the maximum UL allows. I'm not an electrician, but I would guess that you are perfectly legal with installing a 20-amp socket on a circuit with 12 AWG wire and a 20-amp breaker. You do have to be careful that you don't run other stuff on the circuit, of course. I would periodically, maybe once per month or so, put your hand on the plug to make sure that it's not generating a lot of heat. If and when that happens, I would replace the plug and the socket. Send me a cup of that coffee. I'm curious to know what it tastes like. |
#37
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
On Oct 16, 1:27 pm, wrote:
I'm not an electrician, but I would guess that you are perfectly legal with installing a 20-amp socket on a circuit with 12 AWG wire and a 20-amp breaker. You do have to be careful that you don't run other stuff on the circuit, of course. I would periodically, maybe once per month or so, put your hand on the plug to make sure that it's not generating a lot of heat. If and when that happens, I would replace the plug and the socket. Send me a cup of that coffee. I'm curious to know what it tastes like. You can put an unlimited amount of 16 amp appliances on one 20 amp circuit. The problem comes in when you try to use them at the same time. I am guessing that that all but the warmer on the espresso machine would not be used more than 20 min a day. If you want espresso and toast and want to use the microwave at the same time then you should consider having more circuits. Trying to do all of this at the same time is not unsafe. It would just trip the breaker. |
#38
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:24:46 -0400, Jeff Wisnia
wrote: You might not be planning to use bigger stuff, but what about your teen-age son, your brother in law, your wife, your father and anyone doing anything when you are out of town, out of the house, in the hospital, dead, or have sold the house to innocent but unskilled people. Same comment as above. It sounds like your house has been wired incorrectly. It makes me wonder if you might have the basis for a lawsuit. I agree that he should get the rest of it checked. He might want to check with owners of other houses built by the same builder. If problems are not too many and not too big, maybe they can let the original electrician fix them. Simplest thing for him to do if he can't get at enouch of the cable jacket to see what's printed on it is to bum a couple of inches of 14 gauge and 12 gauge wire someplace and compare the conductor sizes to what he's got coming from that 20 amp breaker. The difference is pretty obvious. Well, I was thinking the problems may not be limited to gauge. Anyone who would put in 20 amp breakers with 14 gauge wire can't be trusted to do anything right. snipped In explanation of my tweaking you on that point; Your post, which I replied to, was NOT a direct reply to the OP's post, where he certainly did write that it was a 20 amp breaker. Your post was a reply to a post by "mgkelson" in which he simply said he used 20 amp recepticals as replacements for 15 amp ones, because he felt the 20 amp ones were "higher quality". He said nothing about the breakers on those circuits being 20 amps. It's easy to lose track of who said what on extended multiforked threads like this one, I do it all the time. You're right. I did lose track of who said what. Peace, To you, peace. Jeff -- Jeffry Wisnia |
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Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle
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