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-   -   single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/175473-single-double-pole-switch-240v-baseboard-heater.html)

[email protected] September 10th 06 09:40 AM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

Part B:
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?

Thank you for your time,
William


RBM September 10th 06 01:16 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
You can't exceed 80%, so you could use 30 amp wire. A wall thermostat or
switch needs to disconnect both hot legs


" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

Part B:
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?

Thank you for your time,
William




peter September 10th 06 04:16 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 

" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!


120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.



[email protected] September 10th 06 04:34 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 

peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!


120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.


Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William


[email protected] September 10th 06 04:41 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 



" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

Part B:
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?

Thank you for your time,
William


RBM (remove this) wrote:
You can't exceed 80%, so you could use 30 amp wire. A wall thermostat or
switch needs to disconnect both hot legs


Greetings,

You cannot exceed 80% of the wire rating or of the breaker rating? I
thought it was of the breaker rating? And my real question is: are
baseboard heaters considered intermittent loads?

Thanks,
William


Toller September 10th 06 05:09 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 

" wrote in message
oups.com...

peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!


120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and
touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative
to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.


Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Do it if you want to; it is neither legal nor safe.
With a switch off, there is to be no voltage at a device. With a single
pole switch, someone working on the heater will be very surprised.
Your heaters could easily be on for hours at a time. Do you think that is
intermittent?

Do what you what, but don't hope that people will tell you it is okay.



Rich256 September 10th 06 05:38 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
wrote:
peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.


Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William


What you are saying is true but I expect code requires a double pole.
Someone working on the unit would not depend on the thermostat to remove
all power but would most likely expect it to be removed by the switch.

Kind of like power to a lamp with a non polarized plug being plugged
into a switchable socket. It is possible for the lamp to have voltage
even with the switch turned off.

Rich256 September 10th 06 05:43 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
Rich256 wrote:
wrote:
peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!
120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and
touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by
the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V
relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.


Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William


What you are saying is true but I expect code requires a double pole.
Someone working on the unit would not depend on the thermostat to remove
all power but would most likely expect it to be removed by the switch.

Kind of like power to a lamp with a non polarized plug being plugged
into a switchable socket. It is possible for the lamp to have voltage
even with the switch turned off.


My mind was somewhere else on that last statement!!! Thinking of the
outside of a socket I guess.

Edwin Pawlowski September 10th 06 06:02 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 

" wrote in message
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?


Yes, 83 % is too high.



You cannot exceed 80% of the wire rating or of the breaker rating? I
thought it was of the breaker rating?



If the wire is properly matched, it works out to both.

And my real question is: are
baseboard heaters considered intermittent loads?


What is intermittent about a heating element that maybe on from a few
minutes to hours at a time?

I'm glad I'm not your tenant. You seem to want to cheap out on this and
potentially cause a serious safety situation. Use the right double pole
switch, use the right wiring.



Jeff Wisnia September 10th 06 06:08 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
Rich256 wrote:

wrote:

peter wrote:

" wrote in message
oups.com...

Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and
touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by
the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V
relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.



Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William


What you are saying is true but I expect code requires a double pole.
Someone working on the unit would not depend on the thermostat to remove
all power but would most likely expect it to be removed by the switch.

Kind of like power to a lamp with a non polarized plug being plugged
into a switchable socket. It is possible for the lamp to have voltage
even with the switch turned off.


I take it you meant to say, "even with the switch ON THE LAMP turned off"

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

HeatMan September 10th 06 06:44 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
I am happy as (insert expletive here) that you are NOT my landlord.

You've asked nearly the exact same question three times. You must be a real
cheap person.

FWIW, back when I rented, I (as the tenant) was responsible for the
utilities.

" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

Part B:
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?

Thank you for your time,
William




Jeff Wisnia September 10th 06 07:10 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
HeatMan wrote:

I am happy as (insert expletive here) that you are NOT my landlord.

You've asked nearly the exact same question three times. You must be a real
cheap person.

FWIW, back when I rented, I (as the tenant) was responsible for the
utilities.

" wrote in message
oups.com...

Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!

Part B:
The baseboard heaters are 2000W. If I put 2 of them on the same 20A
circuit I am at 83% of the rated breaker capacity (I am using standard
Siemens breakers). Do I really need to put each one on its own
breaker?

Thank you for your time,
William





He's probably too cheap to convert that apartment to separate metering
so the tenant can pay for the electricity, and would then also have an
incentive not to waste it.

Or, maybe he's renting an "illegal apartment" in an area zoned only for
single family housing and can't do that. G

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"What do you expect from a pig but a grunt?"

Mark Lloyd September 10th 06 09:56 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:38:21 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!
120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.


Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William


What you are saying is true but I expect code requires a double pole.
Someone working on the unit would not depend on the thermostat to remove
all power but would most likely expect it to be removed by the switch.

Kind of like power to a lamp with a non polarized plug being plugged
into a switchable socket. It is possible for the lamp to have voltage
even with the switch turned off.


That reminds me of the way I first learned to connect 3-way light
switches. It's considered unsafe because the light can be off and
still have 120V connected to it.
--
106 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"How could you ask be to believe in God when there's
absolutely no evidence that I can see?" -- Jodie Foster

Rich256 September 11th 06 12:00 AM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Sun, 10 Sep 2006 15:38:21 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
peter wrote:
" wrote in message
oups.com...
Greetings,

Part A:
I have 240V baseboard heaters with the termostat inside the heater. I
want to put wall switches in the same place as the light switches so
that I can turn off the heaters when I leave the room without getting
down on the ground to adjust the thermostat. I know that a single pole
switch will work but I wanted to know if there was any reason the code
required a double pole switch? Thanks!
120V circuit has a neutral and a hot; if you stand in a bath tub and touch
the two wires one by one, you will get shocked by the hot, and not by the
neutral

240V circuit has no neutral; it has two hots (each one is 120V relative to
ground). If you touch the two wires one by one, you get shocked twice.

If you switch off only one hot, then the heater wiring is still carrying
120V. This is potentially dangerous.
Greetings,

I fail to understand why it is dangerous for the wire to be carrying
120V into the heater. So what? The (optional add-in) integrated
thermostat only breaks one pole. Are you saying it is dangerous?
Based on your posting alone it appears that if one is dangerous then
the other must be as well.

Please explain.

Thanks,
William

What you are saying is true but I expect code requires a double pole.
Someone working on the unit would not depend on the thermostat to remove
all power but would most likely expect it to be removed by the switch.

Kind of like power to a lamp with a non polarized plug being plugged
into a switchable socket. It is possible for the lamp to have voltage
even with the switch turned off.


That reminds me of the way I first learned to connect 3-way light
switches. It's considered unsafe because the light can be off and
still have 120V connected to it.



Yeah, but as I posted, I don't know where my mind what when I made that
last statement. Immediately after I hit the send button I realized what
I had said. With the switch off there should not be any voltage on the
lamp.

If plugged into an ordinary socket it could have voltage on the outside
rim of the socket.

Chris Lewis September 11th 06 04:04 PM

single or double pole switch for 240V baseboard heater
 
According to Toller :

Do it if you want to; it is neither legal nor safe.
With a switch off, there is to be no voltage at a device. With a single
pole switch, someone working on the heater will be very surprised.
Your heaters could easily be on for hours at a time. Do you think that is
intermittent?


Do what you what, but don't hope that people will tell you it is okay.


Ah, but it is. Call it crazy, but the NEC (and I believe the CEC
as well) permit the use of single pole thermostats with 240V heaters.

I don't like it either, and when installing a heater, I'll use
a two pole thermostat.

But, anybody fiddling with the wires of a 240V heater, relying
_only_ on a thermostat to shut power off, probably deserves what
they get.

As an interesting sidenote: somewhat akin to the special ampacity ruleso
for motors, the CEC has special provisions for dedicated electric heater
circuits.

While you cannot exceed the 80% rule for the breaker, you can load the
wire to 100% of its rating.

In other words, if you have a 15A heater on 120V, you can use
a 20A breaker and 14ga wire.

Which suggests to me that the continuous 80% ampacity limit is largely
for the breaker's benefit, not the wire.

This doesn't apply to the NEC.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.


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