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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

In article , Bud-- wrote:
Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.

Your original statement was:

Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system


Yep. And that's correct.

The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.

It's bonded to the *other* grounding electrode(s) to ensure that the water
piping is always at zero potential with respect to the electrical ground.

Not sure why you're having such a hard time grasping that concept...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Bud-- wrote:

Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.

Your original statement was:


Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system



Yep. And that's correct.

The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.


2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1)
through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding
electrode system."

250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an
electrical connection to the earth."

If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes
including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to
form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical
connection to the earth.

What do you think it means?

Can you read?

bud--
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

In article , Bud-- wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

In article , Bud--

wrote:

Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.

Your original statement was:


Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system



Yep. And that's correct.

The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.


2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1)
through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding
electrode system."

250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an
electrical connection to the earth."

If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes
including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to
form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical
connection to the earth.

What do you think it means?

Can you read?


You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water
pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal
water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's
a fact.

It's also a fact that the reason for bonding metal water pipes to the other
grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the plumbing cannot ever become live,
no matter what might go wrong with the electrical system.

Sorry you're having such a hard time understanding.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:


In article , Bud--


wrote:

Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.

Your original statement was:



Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system


Yep. And that's correct.

The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.


2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1)
through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding
electrode system."

250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."

100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an
electrical connection to the earth."

If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes
including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to
form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical
connection to the earth.

What do you think it means?

Can you read?



You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water
pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal
water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's
a fact.


Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
“The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.”

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."

bud--

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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

In article , Bud-- wrote:

Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
“The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.”

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."


It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Randy wrote:



More explaination...

EC&M

Beyond the 2005 NEC Changes: Art. 250 Grounding and Bonding
By Steven Owen, National Code Seminars
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_beyon...ges/index.html
[see link for article]


Particularly clear info on Ufer ground in new construction. Thanks

Code Quandaries
By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stump..._25/index.html

[excerpt - see above link for full article]
Changes to 250.50 were made to clarify that, where any of the following
electrodes "are present" they must be bonded together to create the
grounding electrode system.

Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)]

Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]

Concrete-encased foundation or footer steel [250.52(A)(3)]

To me this wording is clearer than "concrete encased electrode", which
to me implies that connection to the steel has been made available.
Nothing else in the list is named as an "electrode".


Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]

Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)]

Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)]


The intent of the change to 250.50 (wording changed from "if
available" to "are present") and the addition of the exception
was meant to require the use of concrete-encased foundation or footer
steel as part of the building or structure grounding electrode system
in new construction (if they are present), since they are considered
"present" before they pour concrete.


IMHO the code should make this even more explicit. Good requirement though.



Randy

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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud-- wrote:

Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
�The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.�

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."


It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.


"250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection
Association

Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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In article . net, wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud--

wrote:

Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
�The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.�

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."


It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.


"250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection
Association


I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted
to be the *sole* grounding electrode...


Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?


Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never disputed
that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding
electrode system.

The whole argument is over *why*.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . net, wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud--

wrote:
Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
�The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.�

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."
It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.

"250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection
Association


I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted
to be the *sole* grounding electrode...

Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?


Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never disputed
that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding
electrode system.

The whole argument is over *why*.


Is your position on why so as to keep it at the same potential as the
other electrodes? Yes or no no dodging.

My position on why is that it is the best electrode available on
premises served by large underground metallic water systems. In a
building with no internal metallic plumbing supplied by a utility that
requires copper laterals; many do; why do we still need to connect the
Grounding Electrode Conductor to that piping. How is it to become
energized in the absence of interior metallic piping? Why does the code
require that the portion of the GEC that is the connection to the
underground metal water piping be sized according to the table rather
than limited in size like the one to the Concrete Encased Electrode,
Ground Ring, Driven Rods, and so forth. It is because it is a superior
electrode to any of those others. How many Grounding Electrode Systems
have you measured for impedance to ground? How many have you installed?
I cannot answer such questions my self because I lost track decades
ago. In areas served by metallic public water systems I've never found
an electrode with a lower impedance to ground than the metallic water
service lateral from the metal water mains. That includes the ground
rings and genuine Ufers installed at radio stations and the deep driven
rod arrays installed at telegraphic fire alarm receiving stations.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
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In article . net, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . net,

wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Bud--
wrote:
Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
�The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.�

I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."
It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding

electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the

*other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground

and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.

I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you

really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.

"250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection
Association


I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted


to be the *sole* grounding electrode...

Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?


Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never

disputed
that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding
electrode system.

The whole argument is over *why*.


Is your position on why so as to keep it at the same potential as the
other electrodes? Yes or no no dodging.


I guess you haven't been following the thread too closely, because I've stated
that quite explicitly a number of times -- even quoted a portion of the NEC
Handbook that says exactly that.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


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I think he is likely trolling.

or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult.

bud--
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Bud-- wrote:
I think he is likely trolling.

or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult.

bud--


Thanks Bud. I try to remember not to wrestle with pigs. You just get
filthy dirty and the pig enjoys it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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most of the discussion is on gas piping outside the house. It would be a good idea to electrically bond the internal gas piping - that is the piping that is downstream of the gas meter - to the electrical ground electrode. The reason being that if the gas piping is energized it can conduct electricity same as water pipe. Typically the gas appliance ground will suffice, but if there is an overvoltage from a transformer surge or lightning, the high impedance of the appliance ground wire doesn't provide a low impedence path to ground. For most CSST, the gas piping MUST be bonded to the electrical ground. So to answer your question:

- Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code.
- Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors.
- Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its available.
- Daisy Chain? You should be able to daisy chain from water pipe if its electrically continuous.

On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 12:45:10 PM UTC-4, blueman wrote:
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


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On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 6:43:17 PM UTC-5, Jeff wrote:
Click Fraud wrote:

(Doug Miller) wrote:

The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.


And this really is an important thing!

My mother in law's dishwasher developed a short to the incoming water
pipe. Most of her water piping is PVC, but some of the outside parts
are metal, and NOT bonded to ground.

We discovered this one day when she went to water the lawn while the
dishwasher was running. She reached for the faucet, and ZAP!
Fortunately, it was not lethal.


Did you find out HOW the dishwasher shorted to the inlet pipe? Seems a
bit hard to fathom unless whoever installed the wiring to the dishwaher
didn't ground it properly.

A plastic bodied water inlet solenoid valve might have insulated the
inlet pipe from the rest of the dishwasher, but how did a switched hot
lead contact the pipe? Maybe the solenoid valve's coil developed a short
to it's case, which was electrically connected to the piping, but not to
the rest of the machine.

My curious mind wants to know...

Jeff
--

I think it really depends on the mineral content and salinity of the water as to whether or not it will conduct electricity. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Water Monster
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On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT), safecsst
wrote:

most of the discussion is on gas piping outside the house. It would be a good idea to electrically bond the internal gas piping - that is the piping that is downstream of the gas meter - to the electrical ground electrode. The reason being that if the gas piping is energized it can conduct electricity same as water pipe. Typically the gas appliance ground will suffice, but if there is an overvoltage from a transformer surge or lightning, the high impedance of the appliance ground wire doesn't provide a low impedence path to ground. For most CSST, the gas piping MUST be bonded to the electrical ground. So to answer your question:

- Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code.
- Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors.
- Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its available.
- Daisy Chain? You should be able to daisy chain from water pipe if its electrically continuous.

On Monday, July 31, 2006 at 12:45:10 PM UTC-4, blueman wrote:
When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.

I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?

Thanks


Interior piping is required to be bonded where likely to become
energized and this normally happens via the EGC in the equipment
served.
Water pipe shall be bonded using table 250-66, the same as any other
ground electrode. (ie: 4ga for a typical 200a service)


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replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm


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On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm


Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.
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On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm


Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.


The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.
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On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm


Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.


The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.


I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.


https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf


Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.
  #60   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,141
Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm

Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.


The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.


I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.


https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf


Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.


CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an
electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow
CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc
resistant)
I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not
use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.


  #62   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit
https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm

Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.

The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.


I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.


https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf


Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.


CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an
electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow
CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc
resistant)
I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not
use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.


Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why
galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare
connections and brazed copper pipe.

Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may
be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe.


Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector
who did some research:
CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can
momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can
cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If
you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires,
manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing
system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The
suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will
not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If
you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY.
System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires.
IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version
necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either.

Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The
inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the
resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may
not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having
the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea.
  #63   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 15:09:18 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit
https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm

Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.

The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.

I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.


https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf


Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.


CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an
electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow
CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc
resistant)
I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not
use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.


Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why
galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare
connections and brazed copper pipe.

Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may
be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe.


Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector
who did some research:
CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can
momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can
cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If
you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires,
manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing
system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The
suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will
not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If
you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY.
System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires.
IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version
necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either.

Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The
inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the
resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may
not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having
the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea.



Here in Ontario up untill about 10 years ago you could NOT use
galvanized for gas. If an inspector found 1 piece of galvanized the
gas was locked off untill it was replaced. Guys sometimes got around
it by painting the gasline yellow and hiding the galvanize.

Galvanized is now allowed.
All gas lines must be bonded to the electrical ground and metallic
water pipes - and water meters, softeners and water heaters need to
have bonding wires across them.
  #64   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14,141
Default Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 22:01:50 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 15:09:18 -0600, bud-- wrote:

On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 3, 2019 at 11:40:58 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 07:42:31 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 10:44:08 PM UTC-4, John wrote:
replying to blueman, John wrote:
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.

--
for full context, visit
https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...pe-133432-.htm

Yes, metal gas piping inside a building is required to be bonded
to the electric system ground.

The general consensus is it can be bonded using the EGC of the circuit
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.

I found this, which agrees with that, unless it is CSST, in which case
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.


https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineeri...s%20Piping.pdf


Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.

CSST comes with it's own problems. Hard steel pipe only presents an
electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow
CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc
resistant)
I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not
use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.


Black steel pipe is used here for gas. I think there is a reason why
galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare
connections and brazed copper pipe.

Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may
be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe.


Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector
who did some research:
CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can
momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can
cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If
you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires,
manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing
system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The
suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will
not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If
you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY.
System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires.
IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version
necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either.

Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The
inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the
resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may
not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having
the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea.



Here in Ontario up untill about 10 years ago you could NOT use
galvanized for gas. If an inspector found 1 piece of galvanized the
gas was locked off untill it was replaced. Guys sometimes got around
it by painting the gasline yellow and hiding the galvanize.

Galvanized is now allowed.
All gas lines must be bonded to the electrical ground and metallic
water pipes - and water meters, softeners and water heaters need to
have bonding wires across them.


I think the galvanized gas pipe is certified differently than water
pipe (less loose plating allowed) but it is all I ever see here.
"Black iron" quickly becomes "Red iron" here.
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