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#1
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, and is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. (“Greenpeace Report - Not ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet,” greenpeace.org - April 1997) Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. (“Special Report: what you need to know about pest control,” Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" " Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity." Thanks, Bertie Brink Life is a sexually transmitted disease. R. D. Laing http://www.setdefault.com/ : http://www.csmonitor.com/ |
#2
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
Yeah right, go look up the MSDS and compare to caffeine. Glyphosphate is
one tenth as toxic as caffeine. "Bertie Brink" wrote in message ... http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, and is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. (“Greenpeace Report - Not ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet,” greenpeace.org - April 1997) Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. (“Special Report: what you need to know about pest control,” Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" " Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity." Thanks, Bertie Brink Life is a sexually transmitted disease. R. D. Laing http://www.setdefault.com/ : http://www.csmonitor.com/ |
#3
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
According to Bertie Brink :
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, Doncha just love fear mongering? http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/si...temp/~Kss4ig:6 Authors: Williams GM Kroes R Munro IC Author Address: Department of Pathology, New York Medical College, Valhalla 10595, USA. Source: Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2000, Apr; 31(2 Pt 1):117-65. [Regulatory toxicology and pharmacology : RTP.] Abstract: Reviews on the safety of glyphosate and Roundup herbicide that have been conducted by several regulatory agencies and scientific institutions worldwide have concluded that there is no indication of any human health concern. Nevertheless, questions regarding their safety are periodically raised. This review was undertaken to produce a current and comprehensive safety evaluation and risk assessment for humans. It includes assessments of glyphosate, its major breakdown product [aminomethylphosphonic acid (AMPA)], its Roundup formulations, and the predominant surfactant [polyethoxylated tallow amine (POEA)] used in Roundup formulations worldwide. The studies evaluated in this review included those performed for regulatory purposes as well as published research reports. The oral absorption of glyphosate and AMPA is low, and both materials are eliminated essentially unmetabolized. Dermal penetration studies with Roundup showed very low absorption. Experimental evidence has shown that neither glyphosate nor AMPA bioaccumulates in any animal tissue. No significant toxicity occurred in acute, subchronic, and chronic studies. Direct ocular exposure to the concentrated Roundup formulation can result in transient irritation, while normal spray dilutions cause, at most, only minimal effects. The genotoxicity data for glyphosate and Roundup were assessed using a weight-of-evidence approach and standard evaluation criteria. There was no convincing evidence for direct DNA damage in vitro or in vivo, and it was concluded that Roundup and its components do not pose a risk for the production of heritable/somatic mutations in humans. Multiple lifetime feeding studies have failed to demonstrate any tumorigenic potential for glyphosate. Accordingly, it was concluded that glyphosate is noncarcinogenic. Glyphosate, AMPA, and POEA were not teratogenic or developmentally toxic. There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies. Results from standard studies with these materials also failed to show any effects indicative of endocrine modulation. Therefore, it is concluded that the use of Roundup herbicide does not result in adverse effects on development, reproduction, or endocrine systems in humans and other mammals. For purposes of risk assessment, no-observed-adverse-effect levels (NOAELs) were identified for all subchronic, chronic, developmental, and reproduction studies with glyphosate, AMPA, and POEA. Margins-of-exposure for chronic risk were calculated for each compound by dividing the lowest applicable NOAEL by worst-case estimates of chronic exposure. Acute risks were assessed by comparison of oral LD50 values to estimated maximum acute human exposure. It was concluded that, under present and expected conditions of use, Roundup herbicide does not pose a health risk to humans. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#4
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? |
#5
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? Well, that is a meaningless response. I use such chemicals as rarely as possible, but nonetheless, I have little confidence in greenpeace as an arbiter of safety for garden chemicals. Were it up to them, we would all be grouching around in the mud living off earthworms. Really. An I used to give them money. Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason |
#6
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter."
Wow, to think I thought it was a non-selective plant killer, I didn't know it destroys vegetation. "Bertie Brink" wrote in message ... http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, and is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. (“Greenpeace Report - Not ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet,” greenpeace.org - April 1997) Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. (“Special Report: what you need to know about pest control,” Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" " Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity." Thanks, Bertie Brink Life is a sexually transmitted disease. R. D. Laing http://www.setdefault.com/ : http://www.csmonitor.com/ |
#7
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
Bertie Brink wrote: Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Vanilla extract contains alcohol, which can be toxic. Dose? Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. Lovely. More info needed. Dragons are extremely difficult to photograph in downtown Newark, NJ. Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. ("Special Report: what you need to know about pest control," Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" The eminent scientific journal? Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup... destroys the vegetation I should hope it would! Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing How many adverse effects? What rate? What is the margin of error? This kind of reporting goes against what you are trying to do. Present us with verifiable facts, figures, doses, and so forth, or you simply add to the vast bulk of logic fallacies and numerology that is the global environmental movement today. |
#8
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
MSDS for WATER H2O
slip hazard on floors and espically if frozen, electrical shock hazard when water and electric mix, drownd hazard and it doesnt take much. shall i go on? water is dangerous. perhaps it should be banned too |
#9
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
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#10
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"yourname" wrote in message
news:uoayg.10723$nh1.4307@trndny07... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? Well, that is a meaningless response. I use such chemicals as rarely as possible, but nonetheless, I have little confidence in greenpeace as an arbiter of safety for garden chemicals. Were it up to them, we would all be grouching around in the mud living off earthworms. Really. An I used to give them money. Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason Greenpeace has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about history. Ever since I began following these issues, both sides of the chemical debate have used animal testing to prove their points. When environmental groups say they see carcinogenic effects in rats, the chemical manufacturers claim that because rats react differently than humans, these tests are not valid. Then, the opposite happens. When chemical companies claim they find no ill effects in animal tests, environmental groups say the tests are meaningless for the same reasons the chemical companies say it. There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Take your pick. If you're among the meat heads who think a lawn that's 3% weeds is the end of the world, use the chemicals. |
#11
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: There is NO way to test properly for human health problems... no controlled study is possible. Well, if the scientific method is invalid, then I might as well start smokin' Camel non filters. * light puff ack * |
#12
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
Bertie Brink wrote: http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) ... is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness ... So, since it is one of if not the most widely used and probably by a wide margin, that would actually seem to corroborate it's relative safety... |
#13
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:22:18 -0400, Bertie Brink
wrote: http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, and is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Okay, first clue agricultural workers. Ask your self if you have been working in the fields with the stuff for the last month. Ask yourself whether you will be in the fields with the stuff all the next month. The cases that appear to have indicated a higher tendency to cancer are from people with long term exposure at high concentration. Google "medical studies glyphosate" a spend some time reading the various articles. Read critically and especially in context of who was being studied. Then form your own opinion. Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. (“Greenpeace Report - Not ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet,” greenpeace.org - April 1997) Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. (“Special Report: what you need to know about pest control,” Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" Did they say in what concentration and to whom. From Natural Health Magazine. Oh, than that must be a reliable unbiased source without any agenda. " Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity." Careful of "independent studies". Can be as simple as the an author who tried it in his backyard, and saw an earthworm die in the area at some point. Thanks, Bertie Brink Life is a sexually transmitted disease. R. D. Laing http://www.setdefault.com/ : http://www.csmonitor.com/ If I was working with it daily over long periods I would be concerned. Show some good sense when working a couple times with it Gary Dyrkacz Radio Control Aircraft/Paintball Physics/Paintball for 40+ http://home.comcast.net/~dyrgcmn/ |
#14
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
wrote in message oups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: There is NO way to test properly for human health problems... no controlled study is possible. Well, if the scientific method is invalid, then I might as well start smokin' Camel non filters. * light puff ack * BUT, Camel non filters have been tested on live human beings for years, now they died an early death. |
#15
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:0Vayg.6538 There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Controlled studies do account for such factors. It's simple science. Take your pick. If you're among the meat heads who think a lawn that's 3% weeds is the end of the world, use the chemicals. Use roundup on lawns, and you have no lawn. Bob |
#16
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "yourname" wrote in message news:uoayg.10723$nh1.4307@trndny07... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? Well, that is a meaningless response. I use such chemicals as rarely as possible, but nonetheless, I have little confidence in greenpeace as an arbiter of safety for garden chemicals. Were it up to them, we would all be grouching around in the mud living off earthworms. Really. An I used to give them money. Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason Greenpeace has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about history. Ever since I began following these issues, both sides of the chemical debate have used animal testing to prove their points. When environmental groups say they see carcinogenic effects in rats, the chemical manufacturers claim that because rats react differently than humans, these tests are not valid. Then, the opposite happens. When chemical companies claim they find no ill effects in animal tests, environmental groups say the tests are meaningless for the same reasons the chemical companies say it. There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Take your pick. If you're among the meat heads who think a lawn that's 3% weeds is the end of the world, use the chemicals. I only had to read who did the OP's study to know where the body of the text would go. Gee, whodathunk that that outfit woulf find problems with it. As for testing on rats, etc: Those who find the problems, I will bet, are using it in doses way over real world application. I have seen a lot of reports over the years where 'substance x is cancer causing when tested on rats' Then you read the report and find that Yep, it causes cancer but probably would have killed them from obesity at the rates they were fed it. I put no trust at all in studies done by outfits with an ax to grind. Harry K |
#17
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Bob" wrote in message
. .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:0Vayg.6538 There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Controlled studies do account for such factors. It's simple science. You're right. They do account for such factors. But, they need to know what the factors are. When it comes to determining what we breathe, drink and eat, that is virtually impossible. Telling a researcher you eat 4 apples a week is not enough. You need to know where they came from, what was sprayed on them, and the quality of the water used to irrigate the orchards. What's in the water used to make the beer, liquor or juice drinks you consume? Unknown. What's in the fish you eat? Unknown. What's sprayed on the beans used to make your coffee, beans which originate in countries where there are even less controls than here with regard to chemical use? Unknown. In addition to all this, I seem to recall reading that testing agricultural chemicals (formally) on humans is now illegal in this country, although you and I are involuntary lab rats. Roll the dice. |
#18
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "yourname" wrote in message news:uoayg.10723$nh1.4307@trndny07... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? Well, that is a meaningless response. I use such chemicals as rarely as possible, but nonetheless, I have little confidence in greenpeace as an arbiter of safety for garden chemicals. Were it up to them, we would all be grouching around in the mud living off earthworms. Really. An I used to give them money. Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason Greenpeace has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about history. Ever since I began following these issues, both sides of the chemical debate have used animal testing to prove their points. When environmental groups say they see carcinogenic effects in rats, the chemical manufacturers claim that because rats react differently than humans, these tests are not valid. Then, the opposite happens. When chemical companies claim they find no ill effects in animal tests, environmental groups say the tests are meaningless for the same reasons the chemical companies say it. There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Take your pick. If you're among the meat heads who think a lawn that's 3% weeds is the end of the world, use the chemicals. I only had to read who did the OP's study to know where the body of the text would go. Gee, whodathunk that that outfit woulf find problems with it. As for testing on rats, etc: Those who find the problems, I will bet, are using it in doses way over real world application. I have seen a lot of reports over the years where 'substance x is cancer causing when tested on rats' Then you read the report and find that Yep, it causes cancer but probably would have killed them from obesity at the rates they were fed it. I put no trust at all in studies done by outfits with an ax to grind. Harry K How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? |
#19
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
I run a farm, and I am extremely careful around my animals. I was
very hesitant to use Roundup or anything else near them. I thoroughly read up on Roundup and other weed killers. Roundup came up safe time and time again. I would not believe Monsanto, or for taht matter, the manufacturer of any product. I did read the govt. studies and many more. It appears safe and the safest of all the choices. I still will not use it where my animals will eat for at least a week, and I still try to use as little as possible. However, of the choices available, Roundup seems the safest and the only thing I will use. On my lawn I have spot sprayed individual weeds. Thats a pain in the butt to do, but it works. Mark --------------------- On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:22:18 -0400, Bertie Brink wrote: http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm "Glyphosate (Roundup) is one of the most toxic herbicides, and is the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide related illness among agricultural workers. Products containing glyphosate also contain other compounds, which can be toxic. Glyphosate is technically extremely difficult to measure in environmental samples, which means that data is often lacking on residue levels in food and the environment, and existent data may not be reliable. (“Greenpeace Report - Not ready for Roundup: Glyphosate Fact Sheet,” greenpeace.org - April 1997) Glyphosate is found in weed killers and may cause cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, nerve, and respiratory damage. (“Special Report: what you need to know about pest control,” Natural Health Magazine, May/June 2001)" " Monsano’s advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts just don’t support this. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals, plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. Although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup shows adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity." Thanks, Bertie Brink Life is a sexually transmitted disease. R. D. Laing http://www.setdefault.com/ : http://www.csmonitor.com/ |
#20
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
wrote in message
... On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 02:38:15 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message I put no trust at all in studies done by outfits with an ax to grind. Harry K How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I have heard "study" defined as "carefully assembling the data that verifies the desired result" ... or words to that effect. Anyone who ever wrote "views" in a database is familiar with the process. You just keep fine tuning the parameters of your query until the right number comes out, Basically, yeah. That's it. I have this occasional fantasy about oncologists who are heading toward becoming alcoholics after seeing so many kids with cancer, and what kind of study those guys would set up if they received a huge anonymous donation earmarked for proper research methods. |
#21
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "yourname" wrote in message news:uoayg.10723$nh1.4307@trndny07... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Chris Lewis" wrote in message ... Doncha just love fear mongering? Read this again: "There were no effects on fertility or reproductive parameters in two multigeneration reproduction studies with glyphosate. Likewise there were no adverse effects in reproductive tissues from animals treated with glyphosate, AMPA, or POEA in chronic and/or subchronic studies." Would you like to know why this is nonsense? You'd have to have been reading things like this since the mid-1970s to understand. Interested? Well, that is a meaningless response. I use such chemicals as rarely as possible, but nonetheless, I have little confidence in greenpeace as an arbiter of safety for garden chemicals. Were it up to them, we would all be grouching around in the mud living off earthworms. Really. An I used to give them money. Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason Greenpeace has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about history. Ever since I began following these issues, both sides of the chemical debate have used animal testing to prove their points. When environmental groups say they see carcinogenic effects in rats, the chemical manufacturers claim that because rats react differently than humans, these tests are not valid. Then, the opposite happens. When chemical companies claim they find no ill effects in animal tests, environmental groups say the tests are meaningless for the same reasons the chemical companies say it. There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Take your pick. If you're among the meat heads who think a lawn that's 3% weeds is the end of the world, use the chemicals. I only had to read who did the OP's study to know where the body of the text would go. Gee, whodathunk that that outfit woulf find problems with it. As for testing on rats, etc: Those who find the problems, I will bet, are using it in doses way over real world application. I have seen a lot of reports over the years where 'substance x is cancer causing when tested on rats' Then you read the report and find that Yep, it causes cancer but probably would have killed them from obesity at the rates they were fed it. I put no trust at all in studies done by outfits with an ax to grind. Harry K How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. As for the current issue (Roundup) - that product doesn't and didn't need any hype from the company. It would have poured off the shelves just like it did even if there had been very restrictive use requirements. It was a product that farmers, stockmen, etc. had been praying for since chemicals first came into use. If you think that Monsanto downplays the dangers of chemicals, just read the application books that come with each package thereof. In the OP, there were outright lies and distortions in the first few lines of text and it didn't improve from there. Harry K |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. And, the next question is not intended to offend, but I have to ask. When you see articles which cite research sources, how do you decide which to trust? In case this is unclear, here are definitions. Number 2 is the appropriate one in this context. Main Entry: cite Pronunciation: 'sIt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): cit·ed; cit·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French citer to cite, summon, from Latin citare to put in motion, rouse, summon, from frequentative of ciEre to stir, move -- more at -KINESIS 1 : to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court) 2 : to quote by way of example, authority, or proof cites several noteworthy authors 3 a : to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b : to name in a citation 4 : to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
dihydrogen monoxide
never knew the chemical description of water |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
wrote in message ... I have heard "study" defined as "carefully assembling the data that verifies the desired result" ... or words to that effect. Anyone who ever wrote "views" in a database is familiar with the process. You just keep fine tuning the parameters of your query until the right number comes out, That's what peer review is for. Bob |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news "Bob" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:0Vayg.6538 There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Controlled studies do account for such factors. It's simple science. You're right. They do account for such factors. But, they need to know what the factors are. When it comes to determining what we breathe, drink and eat, that is virtually impossible. Telling a researcher you eat 4 apples a week is not enough. You need to know where they came from, what was sprayed on them, and the quality of the water used to irrigate the orchards. What's in the water used to make the beer, liquor or juice drinks you consume? Unknown. What's in the fish you eat? Unknown. What's sprayed on the beans used to make your coffee, beans which originate in countries where there are even less controls than here with regard to chemical use? Unknown. You account for such things as well as you can, and use a big enough sample so they average out. It's been done for years. Bob |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Bob" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news "Bob" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:0Vayg.6538 There is NO way to test properly for human health problems, because you (and nobody you know) would willingly agree to be dosed with pesticides as part of an experiment. They cannot be tested in the same way as pharmaceuticals. Therefore, you cannot assume they are safe or unsafe based on real evidence. You choose based on what's convenient for you personally. To add to the confusion, several scientists have pointed out that even if you could get human volunteers, there'd be no way to determine what OTHER toxins they were exposed to, via drinking water, food, occupational exposure, etc. So, no controlled study is possible. Controlled studies do account for such factors. It's simple science. You're right. They do account for such factors. But, they need to know what the factors are. When it comes to determining what we breathe, drink and eat, that is virtually impossible. Telling a researcher you eat 4 apples a week is not enough. You need to know where they came from, what was sprayed on them, and the quality of the water used to irrigate the orchards. What's in the water used to make the beer, liquor or juice drinks you consume? Unknown. What's in the fish you eat? Unknown. What's sprayed on the beans used to make your coffee, beans which originate in countries where there are even less controls than here with regard to chemical use? Unknown. You account for such things as well as you can, and use a big enough sample so they average out. It's been done for years. Bob Formal human tests of pesticide exposure have been very rare, for obvious reasons. You'll find a few, but nothing statistically significant when compared with the total size of the market. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. And, the next question is not intended to offend, but I have to ask. When you see articles which cite research sources, how do you decide which to trust? In case this is unclear, here are definitions. Number 2 is the appropriate one in this context. Main Entry: cite Pronunciation: 'sIt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): cit·ed; cit·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French citer to cite, summon, from Latin citare to put in motion, rouse, summon, from frequentative of ciEre to stir, move -- more at -KINESIS 1 : to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court) 2 : to quote by way of example, authority, or proof cites several noteworthy authors 3 a : to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b : to name in a citation 4 : to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic begin 666 audio.gif M1TE&.#EA$ `+`+,``,X`(?___P`````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````"P`````$ `+```$(C#(&0"@F-HK=YI8&6:'8D 3IT[IK9=C)*R![L8J&4S.T4`.P`` ` end Monsanto Harry K |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Harry K" wrote in message ups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. And, the next question is not intended to offend, but I have to ask. When you see articles which cite research sources, how do you decide which to trust? In case this is unclear, here are definitions. Number 2 is the appropriate one in this context. Main Entry: cite Pronunciation: 'sIt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): cit·ed; cit·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French citer to cite, summon, from Latin citare to put in motion, rouse, summon, from frequentative of ciEre to stir, move -- more at -KINESIS 1 : to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court) 2 : to quote by way of example, authority, or proof cites several noteworthy authors 3 a : to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b : to name in a citation 4 : to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic begin 666 audio.gif M1TE&.#EA$ `+`+,``,X`(?___P`````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````"P`````$ `+```$(C#(&0"@F-HK=YI8&6:'8D 3IT[IK9=C)*R![L8J&4S.T4`.P`` ` end Monsanto Harry K Monsanto is not an agency, but that response is an interesting clue to how you view these things. How about the second question? When sources are cited, how do you decide which ones you trust? |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
According to JoeSpareBedroom :
"Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. The one that authored the report I quoted the abstract from does quite well. Hint: it wasn't Monsanto. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
According to :
On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:39:38 GMT, yourname wrote: Try explaining yourself, not merely casting doubt on [purported] research. I personally would like to know if there is a real reason not ot buy roundup, or just a greenpeace reason I believe this came up because the DEA was spraying large parts of the Andes undiscriminately in an effort to kill coca plants and in the concentrations they were spraying it was actually killing off large populations of native plants and animals. Was that roundup or was that paraquat? Paraquat is quite toxic, no question about _that_. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
... According to JoeSpareBedroom : "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. The one that authored the report I quoted the abstract from does quite well. Hint: it wasn't Monsanto. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est When Harry K used the term "agency", I interpreted that to mean a government agency. You mentioned a college which, unless I'm reading it wrong, did NOT do the research itself. You posted an article by someone who offered opinions on OTHER peoples' research. Doesn't matter, though. After you posted that information, I asked you a question which you didn't respond to, unless you also post under the name of "yourname". Until you answer the earlier question, we can't continue. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
According to JoeSpareBedroom :
When Harry K used the term "agency", I interpreted that to mean a government agency. Why? You mentioned a college which, unless I'm reading it wrong, did NOT do the research itself. You posted an article by someone who offered opinions on OTHER peoples' research. Not a "someone". Several. So? Reviews of studies are just as valid. That particular agency isn't exactly your typical "college" churning out just philosophy majors either. How about WHO then? How about just about all of the other studies on TOXNET (NIH) that a search for "roundup toxicity" yield? Some of those studies look a bit scary. But look closer - they're talking about _extremely_ high dosage levels. I don't know about you, but I think I'd notice drinking the LD50 dose of Roundup - which is about a pound of the _pure_ stuff. Doesn't matter, though. After you posted that information, I asked you a question which you didn't respond to, unless you also post under the name of "yourname". Until you answer the earlier question, we can't continue. What question was that? That loaded question about "why it can't be believed?", which either turns into a diatribe about trusting Monsanto (which I'm not), or some nonsense about animal tests are always totally irrelevant? Whereas in fact, animal studies almost always reflect how we react to things, and where they don't, they discover that, because they test it on more than one kind of animal. Let's on the other hand, talk about Greenpeace asserting that Roundup is "one of the most toxic herbicides", without a slightest shred of evidence, no citations, _nothing_. Now compare the LD50 dose of Roundup (which is on the order of one _pound_ for a normal size man) with that of caffeine, paraquat, or that matter, table salt. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:81syg.6356 You account for such things as well as you can, and use a big enough sample so they average out. It's been done for years. Bob Formal human tests of pesticide exposure have been very rare, for obvious reasons. You'll find a few, but nothing statistically significant when compared with the total size of the market. Sorry. I'm just refering to the method, not this particular test. Testing something like this on humans is, of course, rare. Tests on animals can model effects on humans if properly done. Bob |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Bob" wrote in message
. .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:81syg.6356 You account for such things as well as you can, and use a big enough sample so they average out. It's been done for years. Bob Formal human tests of pesticide exposure have been very rare, for obvious reasons. You'll find a few, but nothing statistically significant when compared with the total size of the market. Sorry. I'm just refering to the method, not this particular test. Testing something like this on humans is, of course, rare. Tests on animals can model effects on humans if properly done. Bob There is no agreement on how much can be extrapolated from animal tests. The chemical companies say the similarities are either valid, or not, depending on convenience. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
wrote in message
... On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:26:36 -0000, (Chris Lewis) wrote: I believe this came up because the DEA was spraying large parts of the Andes undiscriminately in an effort to kill coca plants and in the concentrations they were spraying it was actually killing off large populations of native plants and animals. Was that roundup or was that paraquat? Paraquat is quite toxic, no question about _that_ Paraquat was used on pot plants. Different deal. This was after that debacle. Whatever we hosed down Colombian villages with, it doused humans and their food crops. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
wrote in message
... On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 19:55:41 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: wrote in message . .. On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:26:36 -0000, (Chris Lewis) wrote: I believe this came up because the DEA was spraying large parts of the Andes undiscriminately in an effort to kill coca plants and in the concentrations they were spraying it was actually killing off large populations of native plants and animals. Was that roundup or was that paraquat? Paraquat is quite toxic, no question about _that_ Paraquat was used on pot plants. Different deal. This was after that debacle. Whatever we hosed down Colombian villages with, it doused humans and their food crops. Paraquat was the Reagan administration's chemical. Roundup was Clinton's. They were both defoliants and both probably presented the biggest threat when they were smoked but the roundup f was used against coca which wasn't really smoked. Maybe the "agricultural workers" who got sick were the ones chewing coca leaves. I do remember the controversy with Greenpeace and it did refer to activities in South America.0 Whatever we sprayed was killing food crops - small gardens that families used for food, not big corporate affairs. And, all this to compensate for the fact that a lot of parents here and elsewhere are unable to talk honestly to their kids about drugs. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
"Harry K" wrote in message
oups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message ups.com... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... How about outfits that need certain results in order for their product to get to market and make a profit? Do you trust them? I trust reputable agencies. Things like greenpeace, ARA etc. are far from reputable. Please name one or more reputable agencies. And, the next question is not intended to offend, but I have to ask. When you see articles which cite research sources, how do you decide which to trust? In case this is unclear, here are definitions. Number 2 is the appropriate one in this context. Main Entry: cite Pronunciation: 'sIt Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): cit·ed; cit·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French citer to cite, summon, from Latin citare to put in motion, rouse, summon, from frequentative of ciEre to stir, move -- more at -KINESIS 1 : to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court) 2 : to quote by way of example, authority, or proof cites several noteworthy authors 3 a : to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b : to name in a citation 4 : to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic begin 666 audio.gif M1TE&.#EA$ `+`+,``,X`(?___P`````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````"P`````$ `+```$(C#(&0"@F-HK=YI8&6:'8D 3IT[IK9=C)*R![L8J&4S.T4`.P`` ` end Monsanto Harry K Monsanto is not an agency, but that response is an interesting clue to how you view these things. How about the second question? When sources are cited, how do you decide which ones you trust? Okay, if you say so. If you want a real agency EPA. I think that is the agency that approves all MSDSs. What sources do I trust and how do I decide? It is more a question of deciding which ones I don't trust. That includes any source orginating from places associated with AR, Greenpiece, ELF, Vegetarians. That last one is sorta open as Vegetarians run the gamet from sane to kook - most of the vegetarians in these forums are on the kook end of the scale. An additional criteria is 'what are they saying?' If it doesn't pass the smell test (the OPs doesn't) I don't trust it. Harry K ==================================== EPA - that's a funny one, Harry. Like the FDA, lots of conflicts of interest there. |
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Roundup Deemed Dangerous/ Poison Ivy Revisited
According to Charlie Morgan :
As I remember it, paraquat was not so much a defoliant as it was something that would make you sick to your stomach if you smoked pot that had been sprayed with it. Paraquat is a defoliant. Making the people sick who smoked the stuff harvested before Paraquat finished killing it was considered an added bonus. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
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